Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:46 AM - Re: popsicle sticks used to laminate Piet spar in the (Clif Dawson)
2. 04:26 AM - Re: popsicle sticks used to laminate Piet spar (harvey.rule@bell.ca)
3. 08:46 AM - FW: DF weight?? (Nick Harris)
4. 09:52 AM - Re: DF weight (Michael Turrell)
5. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: DF weight (Nick Harris)
6. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: DF weight (owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com)
7. 12:19 PM - Re: DF weight (Michael Turrell)
8. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: DF weight (Steve Eldredge)
9. 04:30 PM - Re: Re: DF weight... (Gary Gower)
10. 05:34 PM - Re :DF weight (Michael Turrell)
11. 06:07 PM - Re: Re :DF weight (Jeff Boatright)
12. 06:59 PM - Re: Re :DF weight (Gordon Bowen)
13. 07:07 PM - Re: Re :DF weight (Dave and Connie)
14. 07:16 PM - Re: DF weight (Michael Turrell)
15. 07:22 PM - corvair - prop recommendation and machine work (tmbrant1@netzero.com)
16. 07:27 PM - Re: Tulsa Fly-IN (Larry Nelson)
17. 07:31 PM - Re: DF weight (Michael Turrell)
18. 07:54 PM - Re: Tulsa Fly-IN (Steve Ruse)
19. 10:32 PM - Re: Tulsa Fly-IN (Rcaprd@aol.com)
Message 1
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40's
| Subject: | Re: popsicle sticks used to laminate Piet spar in the |
40's
<984E798CE7C4D4419A6D99DF385597A8961577@toroondc511.bell.corp.bce.ca>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
Hi Harvey, Burns Bog is largely peat moss and in earlier
years was "mined" to provide fuel for cooking and heating.
Now a large part has been set aside as an ecological reserve.
The problem with peat is that fire can burn underground and
then surface in a new location. There has been considerable
effort with helicopter and AC drop including the Mars. It
looks like they have pretty good control of the situation.
The present air quality is rated "fair" and we see that at times
anyway as we are in a mountain surrounded basin similar to
LA. The forecast is for some showers over the next couple
of weeks but the mountainous terrain precludes any accuracy
to forecasting so who knows.
Unless your son has allergies or asthma I wouldn't worry too
much. Even if it continued to burn it's only so big and would
eventually reach it's boundaries. It's not going to burn down
Van or Burnaby. The big loss is in the rare and endangered
flora and fauna. There is a lot of that in the bog.
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/tch/local/state/story/6960113p-6860105c.html
This is like when the SARS " epidemic" hit Toronto. I called my
daughter there, who has life threatening asthma, to see how it
was going to affect her only to have her say " What epidemic?"
After all, we all know what the newspeople do to sell papers.
Clif
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: harvey.rule@bell.ca
>
> Is the fire in Burns Bog posing any problems for you or is it just
> moving all the smoke inland.My Son ,who lives in Burnaby ,told me about
> the fire and last night on the news they said it had increased to 9
> times it's size the day before.They can't seem to control it or put it
> out.
>
Message 2
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in the 40's
| Subject: | popsicle sticks used to laminate Piet spar |
in the 40's
in the 40's
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: harvey.rule@bell.ca
I was thinking more along the lines of flying problems but I can see
from your reply that this is not going to be a problem.Thanks for the
info.I never did figure that the cities were in any trouble.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif
Dawson
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: popsicle sticks used to laminate Piet spar
in the 40's
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
Hi Harvey, Burns Bog is largely peat moss and in earlier
years was "mined" to provide fuel for cooking and heating.
Now a large part has been set aside as an ecological reserve.
The problem with peat is that fire can burn underground and
then surface in a new location. There has been considerable
effort with helicopter and AC drop including the Mars. It
looks like they have pretty good control of the situation.
The present air quality is rated "fair" and we see that at times
anyway as we are in a mountain surrounded basin similar to
LA. The forecast is for some showers over the next couple
of weeks but the mountainous terrain precludes any accuracy
to forecasting so who knows.
Unless your son has allergies or asthma I wouldn't worry too
much. Even if it continued to burn it's only so big and would
eventually reach it's boundaries. It's not going to burn down
Van or Burnaby. The big loss is in the rare and endangered
flora and fauna. There is a lot of that in the bog.
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/tch/local/state/story/6960113p-6860105c.ht
ml
This is like when the SARS " epidemic" hit Toronto. I called my
daughter there, who has life threatening asthma, to see how it
was going to affect her only to have her say " What epidemic?"
After all, we all know what the newspeople do to sell papers.
Clif
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: harvey.rule@bell.ca
>
> Is the fire in Burns Bog posing any problems for you or is it just
> moving all the smoke inland.My Son ,who lives in Burnaby ,told me
about
> the fire and last night on the news they said it had increased to 9
> times it's size the day before.They can't seem to control it or put it
> out.
>
Message 3
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Hey guys,
Not new to the list, but have not posted in a long time. I am building
the tail out of DF choice select. The reason for this is because that is
what was available at LOWES. The grain all looked good so I started cutting
pieces. Now I know that DF is heavier than spruce and stronger at the same
time, but is all DF going to weigh about the same if the moisture content is
the same. I am wondering if my boards are heavier than usual. I picked up
some Western Red Cedar and it felt like a feather compared to the DF. I
also know that WRC is not as strong as spruce. Anyway I got some T-88 in
the mail today and my gusset plywood is in the mail, so I should be able to
start assembly the tail soon if my wood does not resemble a boat anchor.
Thanks in advance
Nick H
Message 4
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As you did not mention whether the DF was Kiln dried,I can only comment that if
it was then I would not worry as Cedar is light compared to DF.
If it is not kiln dried then I would borrow beg or steal a moisture meter and measure
its content.If it is anywhere above 12% you will have to wait for it to
air dry to this measure or find a local kiln to speed up the process before using
it in your project.Working with wood that has not at least air dried to
12% or under will only give you grief as it shrinks after your plane is put together.
From a cabinet maker who has learned most lessons the hard way!
Kind regards,Mike
Ps-If this was all common knowledge to you forgive me!
Message 5
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I think that it was Kiln dried. These were boards that would be used for
finish work. I will double check though. Where would you get a moisture
meter? How much? How does it work?
Nick
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Turrell
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight
As you did not mention whether the DF was Kiln dried,I can only comment that
if it was then I would not worry as Cedar is light compared to DF.
If it is not kiln dried then I would borrow beg or steal a moisture meter
and measure its content.If it is anywhere above 12% you will have to wait
for it to air dry to this measure or find a local kiln to speed up the
process before using it in your project.Working with wood that has not at
least air dried to 12% or under will only give you grief as it shrinks
after your plane is put together.
From a cabinet maker who has learned most lessons the hard way!
Kind regards,Mike
Ps-If this was all common knowledge to you forgive me!
Message 6
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Nick,
Many times your local "woodworking club" will have one to loan out to
members.
Jack T
Des Moines
________________________________
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nick
Harris
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight
I think that it was Kiln dried. These were boards that would be used
for finish work. I will double check though. Where would you get a
moisture meter? How much? How does it work?
Nick
________________________________
Message 7
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If they were finished boards ie: dimentioned 3/4 in" by whatever they were more
than likley kiln dried,and I would not give it any more thought.
As to the moisture meter I purchased mine through Lee Valley Woodworking tools
for around $80 but I am a cabinet maker and buy all my lumber in the rough and
plane and joint it myself so I bring my meter with me when I go to purchase my
lumber and check its moisture content and if it is to high I can dicker price
as I will have to take it home and sticker it(stack it with stickers in between
the layers and let it dry to workable wood)which is time consuming.
Home Depot and places like Lowes charge astronomical prices for wood that is kiln
dried and dimentioned as compared to the way I buy it from sawyers.I buy local
Red oak from a sawyer for $3.25 a board foot(1" thick X 12" wide X1 foot)At
home Depot I would pay the equivelent of $12.00 a board foot.Buying in the rough
has paid for my tools many times over,but I work with it all the time.Its
why I decided to build a Piet!
Good luck,Mike
Message 8
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Good discussion on Doug Fir and moisture.
Just to set your mind at ease.... My entire airplane is built of DF
pulled from a lumber supplier as Mike described. My empty weight is
626lbs with an A-65. Not a stick of spruce in the entire airplane....
Steve e
Flying 8 years now. Latex paint , Douglas Fir, Aerolite glue, AN
hardware. 320 hrs.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Turrell
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight
If they were finished boards ie: dimentioned 3/4 in" by whatever they
were more than likley kiln dried,and I would not give it any more
thought.
As to the moisture meter I purchased mine through Lee Valley Woodworking
tools for around $80 but I am a cabinet maker and buy all my lumber in
the rough and plane and joint it myself so I bring my meter with me when
I go to purchase my lumber and check its moisture content and if it is
to high I can dicker price as I will have to take it home and sticker
it(stack it with stickers in between the layers and let it dry to
workable wood)which is time consuming.
Home Depot and places like Lowes charge astronomical prices for wood
that is kiln dried and dimentioned as compared to the way I buy it from
sawyers.I buy local Red oak from a sawyer for $3.25 a board foot(1"
thick X 12" wide X1 foot)At home Depot I would pay the equivelent of
$12.00 a board foot.Buying in the rough has paid for my tools many times
over,but I work with it all the time.Its why I decided to build a Piet!
Good luck,Mike
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: DF weight... |
Steve,
Congratulations! That is the real Pietenpol philosophy... A cheap and safe
every man airplane. Please all: Beware, No fisherman quality here :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Steve Eldredge <steve@byu.edu> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape
{behavior:url(#default#VML);}st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui)
}
Good discussion on Doug Fir and moisture.
Just to set your mind at ease. My entire airplane is built of DF pulled from a
lumber supplier as Mike described. My empty weight is 626lbs with an A-65.
Not a stick of spruce in the entire airplane.
Steve e
Flying 8 years now. Latex paint , Douglas Fir, Aerolite glue, AN hardware. 320
hrs.
---------------------------------
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Turrell
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight
If they were finished boards ie: dimentioned 3/4 in" by whatever they were more
than likley kiln dried,and I would not give it any more thought.
As to the moisture meter I purchased mine through Lee Valley Woodworking tools
for around $80 but I am a cabinet maker and buy all my lumber in the rough and
plane and joint it myself so I bring my meter with me when I go to purchase my
lumber and check its moisture content and if it is to high I can dicker price
as I will have to take it home and sticker it(stack it with stickers in between
the layers and let it dry to workable wood)which is time consuming.
Home Depot and places like Lowes charge astronomical prices for wood that is kiln
dried and dimentioned as compared to the way I buy it from sawyers.I buy local
Red oak from a sawyer for $3.25 a board foot(1" thick X 12" wide X1 foot)At
home Depot I would pay the equivelent of $12.00 a board foot.Buying in the rough
has paid for my tools many times over,but I work with it all the time.Its
why I decided to build a Piet!
Good luck,Mike
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Message 10
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A by weight comparison of oven dried :
Douglas Fir -31 lbs/sq.ft.
Sitka Spruce -28 lbs/sq.ft.
Western Red Cedar -22 lbs/sq.ft.
Would be nice to be able to build it entirely from the WRC,probably come in under
600 lbs easy!
Regards,Mike
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Re :DF weight |
I forget, what are the relative strength characteristics? Would WRC
be suitable for spars?
>A by weight comparison of oven dried :
> Douglas Fir -31 lbs/sq.ft.
>
> Sitka Spruce -28 lbs/sq.ft.
>
> Western Red Cedar -22 lbs/sq.ft.
>Would be nice to be able to build it entirely from the WRC,probably
>come in under 600 lbs easy!
>Regards,Mike
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Re :DF weight |
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re :DF weightI think the numbers you are referencing below
are cubic feet, not square feet of the dif types of wood. Most kiln dried types
of soft woods are in that range of densities per cubic foot. Think the reason
spruce is a preferred wood has to do with the length and alignment of the
individual fibers, chk out Aircraft Spruce's technical discussion the subject.
I used Home Depot clear 2" x 1/4" strips of window casement molding materials
for making the longerons on the Cozy, cheap, knothole free, and strong. Laminated
together to make curved 3" by 2" by 10', beams that support the main stresses
on the aircraft other than the composite spars.
For further research on materials and regarding dif types of acceptable wood materials,
and reasons why they're acceptable, for airplanes chk out the FAA's
Advisory Circulars AC 43.13-1B and 2A "Acceptable methods, techniques and practices-
Aircraft Inspection and Repair".
Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska
Cozy IV N64CY
Osprey II N64SY
Pietenpol N-1033B
" There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Boatright
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re :DF weight
I forget, what are the relative strength characteristics? Would WRC be suitable
for spars?
A by weight comparison of oven dried :
Douglas Fir -31 lbs/sq.ft.
Sitka Spruce -28 lbs/sq.ft.
Western Red Cedar -22 lbs/sq.ft.
Would be nice to be able to build it entirely from the WRC,probably come in
under 600 lbs easy!
Regards,Mike
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Re :DF weight |
<a0602043fbf4fcafb39d3@[10.0.1.16]>
From building canoes I would guess it to not be all that great. WRC is
pretty brittle.
Not at all what you want in a spar. The handy FAA manual lists the acceptable
substitutions. Seems like Spruce, DF, Port Oxford Cedar, and one of the
hemlocks
are on the list. I don't have a copy handy.
Dave
At 09:06 PM 9/15/2005, you wrote:
>I forget, what are the relative strength characteristics? Would WRC be
>suitable for spars?
>
>>A by weight comparison of oven dried :
>> Douglas Fir -31 lbs/sq.ft.
>>
>> Sitka Spruce -28 lbs/sq.ft.
>>
>> Western Red Cedar -22 lbs/sq.ft.
>>Would be nice to be able to build it entirely from the WRC,probably come
>>in under 600 lbs easy!
>>Regards,Mike
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Message 14
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These are the numbers I dug up,as to western red cedars suitability for spars I
am not knowledgable enough to comment.I will leave that to the experts.
Stress in psi
Bending Compression
Horizontal Shear Perpendicular to grain Parrallel to
grain
WRC 1150 425
1000
DF 1668 625
1700
SP 1495 335
1200
These numbers are dry weight lumber.Hope this answers your question,maybe someone
else can fill in the blanks.
Regards,Mike
Message 15
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| Subject: | corvair - prop recommendation and machine work |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" <tmbrant1@netzero.net>
Two questions for the group.
I'm building the long fuse with a corvair motor - typical William Wynne conversion
with front starter and alternator. Any recommendations on what prop to use.
I'm considering the warp drive prop but hoping I could find a wood prop for
less money that would do the trick.
Also - people in Minneapolis area - any recommendations on where to have corvair
machine work done?
Tom Brant
Brooklyn Park, MN
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Tulsa Fly-IN |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Any of y'all heading to the Tulsa Fly-In this weekend?
I will be there in the Cessna 195, N9883A. Here is
some info.
http://www.tulsaflyin.com/where_to_stay.htm
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Cessna 195 N9883A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
Message 17
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Interestingly enough Port Orford Cedars numbers are identical to Western Red Cedar
1150 ,425,1000 as I had in the graph.Mike
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Tulsa Fly-IN |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
Sounds like a really good one, but unfortunately I won't be able to
make it. I
recently moved (or am in the slow process) of moving to the OKC (Norman, OK)
area. Currently my plane is at Chickasha (KCHK) but I'll be moving it to a
tiny grass strip ((McCaslin, O44) after a trip to Texas this weekend. Are
there any other Pieters in the Central Oklahoma area?
Steve Ruse
N6383J - Norman, OK
Quoting Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Any of y'all heading to the Tulsa Fly-In this weekend?
> I will be there in the Cessna 195, N9883A. Here is
> some info.
>
> http://www.tulsaflyin.com/where_to_stay.htm
>
> Larry Nelson
> Springfield, MO
> Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> Cessna 195 N9883A
> Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> SV/ Spirit of America
> ARS WB0JOT
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Tulsa Fly-IN |
In a message dated 9/15/2005 9:29:09 PM Central Standard Time,
lnelson208@yahoo.com writes:
Any of y'all heading to the Tulsa Fly-In this weekend?
I will be there in the Cessna 195, N9883A. Here is
some info.
http://www.tulsaflyin.com/where_to_stay.htm
Larry,
Is that the annual EAA Fly In? I didn't see anything about the EAA at the
website. Bartlesville Ok is where they had it last year. That's a day trip,
down and back for me.
Weather permitting, I will be there with NX770CG.
Chuck Gantzer
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