---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/16/05: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:01 AM - Re: Re: DF weight (Clif Dawson) 2. 05:52 AM - Re: Tulsa Fly-IN (Jim Markle) 3. 08:16 AM - Re: corvair - prop recommendation and machine work (DJ Vegh) 4. 08:45 AM - Re: corvair - prop recommendation and machine work (hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com) 5. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: DF weight (Gordon Bowen) 6. 11:28 AM - Re: corvair - prop recommendation and machine work (Kirk Huizenga) 7. 11:42 AM - Re: Re: Re: DF weight () 8. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: Re: DF weight (Dick Navratil) 9. 12:20 PM - Wood Handbook (Michael Turrell) 10. 12:29 PM - Re: Re: Re: DF weight (Gordon Bowen) 11. 12:57 PM - Latex Paint Repair and longevity 8 years (Steve Eldredge) 12. 02:04 PM - Re: Wood Handbook (Jeff Boatright) 13. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: DF weight (Jeff Boatright) 14. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: DF weight (Jim Lathrop) 15. 07:46 PM - Re: corvair - prop recommendation and machine work (tmbrant1@netzero.com) 16. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: DF weight (Nick Harris) 17. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: Re: DF weight (Gary Gower) 18. 08:48 PM - Re: Re: Re: DF weight, latex paint... (Gary Gower) 19. 09:05 PM - Re: Re: DF weight (Gary Gower) 20. 09:12 PM - Re: Re: DF weight, latex paint... (Mark) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:57 AM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight The two charts you want are at the bottom of this page; http://clifdawson.ca/Tools_and_Tips.html If you were to build your spars from WR cedar they would have to be 1 1/2" wide instead of 1". That, of course, means changes to the ribs, mounting brackets at the cabanes and outer strut, less room for fuel tank if used in center section, etc. My experience is that Douglas Fir is more "brittle" than Cedar. I hope you're not expecting your spars to be bending enough for this to be a problem. In my very younger years I made archery bows out of whatever was at hand. That was DF and WRC with a couple out of Oak flooring. All of it kiln dried. None of them broke from shooting arrows. Run over, dog chewed, lost in the salt chuck, stolen, sheesh! Good thing there was lots of wood around. Hemlock is a good choice but , at least here, is only available as molding. My fuselage stringers are 1 1/16" square as that is a standard molding size. The tail assembly and also the wing ribs are hemlock. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Turrell Interestingly enough Port Orford Cedars numbers are identical to Western Red Cedar 1150 ,425,1000 as I had in the graph.Mike ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:25 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tulsa Fly-IN I plan on flying NX25JM to Bartlesville......NEXT year..... My Dad and grandparents are from Bartlesville...I know the town well and it's definitely on my list of "where I'm gonna fly this thing when it's finished" airfields!)....... Jim in Plano ----- Original Message ----- From: Rcaprd@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tulsa Fly-IN In a message dated 9/15/2005 9:29:09 PM Central Standard Time, lnelson208@yahoo.com writes: Any of y'all heading to the Tulsa Fly-In this weekend? I will be there in the Cessna 195, N9883A. Here is some info. http://www.tulsaflyin.com/where_to_stay.htm Larry, Is that the annual EAA Fly In? I didn't see anything about the EAA at the website. Bartlesville Ok is where they had it last year. That's a day trip, down and back for me. Weather permitting, I will be there with NX770CG. Chuck Gantzer ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:16 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: corvair - prop recommendation and machine work --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" I'm using a Tennessee Props 66x29 which ought to work good. Somethign like a 64x32 would probably be better. ----- Original Message ----- From: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Subject: Pietenpol-List: corvair - prop recommendation and machine work > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" > > > Two questions for the group. > > I'm building the long fuse with a corvair motor - typical William Wynne > conversion with front starter and alternator. Any recommendations on what > prop to use. I'm considering the warp drive prop but hoping I could find > a wood prop for less money that would do the trick. > > Also - people in Minneapolis area - any recommendations on where to have > corvair machine work done? > > Tom Brant > Brooklyn Park, MN > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: corvair - prop recommendation and machine work From: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com 27, 2005) at 09/16/2005 11:44:54 AM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com Tom, I use a Tennessee prop 64 x 34 on my long fuselage and Corvair powered Pietenpol Empty Weight is 680 Lbs, with pilot and part fuel 920 Lbs Climb rate approximately 725 fpm @ 55 Mph and density altitude of 2000 feet. Top speed indicated so far 90 Mph. I am only 6 flying hours into my test phase, so take this for what it's worth. Hans ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:04 AM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight A review of FAA's Circular indicates WRC not on acceptable list, but white cedar or Port Orford cedar ok to substitute for spruce but gluing requires some special work (I suspect due to the excessive oils in cedar, oh but it does smell so good while you're working with it). DFir, Noble Fir, Western Hemlock all ok to replace spruce. Each has pros and cons due to workability and gluing. White Pine and Yellow poplar ok to replace spruce but structures must be larger due to reduced compression and/or shear. Guess because we're experimentalist and our own testpilots/design engineers/mechanics/floorsweepers/bottlewashers/etc. when it comes to our adventures with homebuilts, you could use just about any kind of wood you want. But probably best to stick with some known types. Still not sold on idea of putting latex paint on as the fabric coating, ain't latex paint water soluble? Heck, if you're gonna use latex paint, why not just cover the plane with Tedlar or Tyvek (white housewrapping stuff with Dupont or Home Depot's name on it), like the ultralights do. It's been proven to work. Will last a lifetime (limited pilot lifetime warranteed), will glue nicely, will heat shrink. Great stuff, no nasty solvent laden paints needed. Besides if you can't get Powdermilk Biscuits to sponsor you homebuilt, why not Home Depot or Lowes even if they don't know they're your sponsor. Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska Cozy IV N64CY Osprey II N64SY Pietenpol N-1033B " There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight The two charts you want are at the bottom of this page; http://clifdawson.ca/Tools_and_Tips.html If you were to build your spars from WR cedar they would have to be 1 1/2" wide instead of 1". That, of course, means changes to the ribs, mounting brackets at the cabanes and outer strut, less room for fuel tank if used in center section, etc. My experience is that Douglas Fir is more "brittle" than Cedar. I hope you're not expecting your spars to be bending enough for this to be a problem. In my very younger years I made archery bows out of whatever was at hand. That was DF and WRC with a couple out of Oak flooring. All of it kiln dried. None of them broke from shooting arrows. Run over, dog chewed, lost in the salt chuck, stolen, sheesh! Good thing there was lots of wood around. Hemlock is a good choice but , at least here, is only available as molding. My fuselage stringers are 1 1/16" square as that is a standard molding size. The tail assembly and also the wing ribs are hemlock. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Turrell Interestingly enough Port Orford Cedars numbers are identical to Western Red Cedar 1150 ,425,1000 as I had in the graph.Mike ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:28:12 AM PST US From: Kirk Huizenga Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: corvair - prop recommendation and machine work --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kirk Huizenga Tom, My corvair had a hand made 64x30 prop. I can't tell you anything about performance since I never flew it before starting the restoration. I think you will start to see a pattern of 64x30-34. The nice thing about the Warp Drive is that the pitch is ground adjustable so you can dial in your preference of climb or cruise a bit more. Regarding places in the cities to get corvair work done - I 'm guessing you are talking primarily about grinding the crank and getting a valve job. I would call Cheetah Auto Supply in Roseville (651) 487-5774 and I would zip off an email to the guys at Minnesota Corvair and see what they recommend http://clubs.hemmings.com/frameset.cfm?club=CMI The main thing to check concerning the crank is to see if the grinder can radius the corners appropriately. There have been some broken cranks (under very different conditions and applications than a Piet, remember) lately and WW has seen a pattern of squared off journals when reground. Check http://flycorvair.com/crankissues.html if you haven't already. Hope this helps Kirk tmbrant1@netzero.com wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" > >Two questions for the group. > >I'm building the long fuse with a corvair motor - typical William Wynne conversion with front starter and alternator. Any recommendations on what prop to use. I'm considering the warp drive prop but hoping I could find a wood prop for less money that would do the trick. > >Also - people in Minneapolis area - any recommendations on where to have corvair machine work done? > >Tom Brant >Brooklyn Park, MN > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:54 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > From: "Gordon Bowen" [snipped] > > Still not sold on idea of putting latex paint on as the fabric coating, ain't latex paint water soluble? > No. Latex based paint is suspended in water until it sets. When the water is allowed to evaporate out of the paint (paint drying), it sets and becomes a large molecule polymer whose bonds are not breakable by water immersion. If it were water soluble, latex exterior house paint probably wouldn't sell very well, would it? Mike (one of many on the list) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:43 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" I flew thru a couple of rain showers this summer. It stayed outside overnight at Brodhead. I have accidently spilled gas while fueling a few times, I use 409 to clean the bugs off of the leading edges and my $100 Sherwin Williams job still looks good. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > >> >> From: "Gordon Bowen" [snipped] >> >> Still not sold on idea of putting latex paint on as the fabric coating, >> ain't latex paint water soluble? >> > No. Latex based paint is suspended in water until it sets. When the > water is allowed to evaporate out of the paint (paint drying), it sets and > becomes a large molecule polymer whose bonds are not breakable by water > immersion. > > If it were water soluble, latex exterior house paint probably wouldn't > sell very well, would it? > > Mike (one of many on the list) > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:17 PM PST US From: "Michael Turrell" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood Handbook For those that are interested in the comparison of different wood species,and probably more info than you require,see http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch04.pdf Tables 4-3b are in (inch pound)* for my US brethren.It's 46 pages long but tables are allways handy to have.Knowledge is ever useful.Regards,Mike ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:03 PM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" Living as I do in an unpainted log cabin in AK, last latex paint I put on the outside of a house was some years ago, but the exterior grade latex paints seemed to be designed to all want to "chalk", therefore bleeding out some of their fillers/and or polymers over the years so the house remained white or at least looking somewhat freshly painted until the next time you had to repaint. You repainted when the paint looked kinda thin or started to peel. Painting and/or recovering now 5 airplanes in my lifetime, I recall the average cost of coatings for a fabric plane has been about $600.00, including a good solvent based polyurethane/acrylate finish coat. In the case of the Piete, the coatings costs was about 5% of the cost of building the plane, due to using Stits as the filler coats. In the case of the Osprey it was about 2%, and the Cozy less than 1%. Putting on a good protective paint designed to last 20 years or more was the easiest and cheapest part of building the airplanes. Many of the guys building ultralights and some homebuilder designs like the KR use a solvent based polyurethane over the fabric directly (no Stits or dope), it seems to work fine. To each his/her own, we love the adventure of trying new ideas. Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska Cozy IV N64CY Osprey II N64SY Pietenpol N-1033B " There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > > > > > From: "Gordon Bowen" [snipped] > > > > Still not sold on idea of putting latex paint on as the fabric coating, ain't latex paint water soluble? > > > No. Latex based paint is suspended in water until it sets. When the water is allowed to evaporate out of the paint (paint drying), it sets and becomes a large molecule polymer whose bonds are not breakable by water immersion. > > If it were water soluble, latex exterior house paint probably wouldn't sell very well, would it? > > Mike (one of many on the list) > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:53 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Latex Paint Repair and longevity 8 years From: "Steve Eldredge" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" I just recovered a certified airplane with Airtech (Stinson 108-2). I did all the work myself including the painting. It cost over $3000 total, not including the $1000 turbine respirator and HVLP paint setup. There is a 5% price increase just published to take effect Oct 1st. A gallon of polyurethane paint is $200. (add another $50 if you like red) I spent $20 a gallon on the SW latex paint. I'd say there is about a 10x savings on coatings if you can live with an experimental paint job. To each his own as you say. I agree. I took a chance when I painted with latex 8 years ago and I figure I won on the decision. I've even had to do a repair after a some road rash when my brother wiped out one gear leg. EASY! I found that if you use a warm iron 200 degrees or so the paint will soften and ball up roll off the fabric with a little pressure. Make your repair with regular solvents and fabric cements, re-prime and paint. Barely noticeable. I'd do it again on a vintage experimental like the Piet. Steve E -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Bowen Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" Living as I do in an unpainted log cabin in AK, last latex paint I put on the outside of a house was some years ago, but the exterior grade latex paints seemed to be designed to all want to "chalk", therefore bleeding out some of their fillers/and or polymers over the years so the house remained white or at least looking somewhat freshly painted until the next time you had to repaint. You repainted when the paint looked kinda thin or started to peel. Painting and/or recovering now 5 airplanes in my lifetime, I recall the average cost of coatings for a fabric plane has been about $600.00, including a good solvent based polyurethane/acrylate finish coat. In the case of the Piete, the coatings costs was about 5% of the cost of building the plane, due to using Stits as the filler coats. In the case of the Osprey it was about 2%, and the Cozy less than 1%. Putting on a good protective paint designed to last 20 years or more was the easiest and cheapest part of building the airplanes. Many of the guys building ultralights and some homebuilder designs like the KR use a solvent based polyurethane over the fabric directly (no Stits or dope), it seems to work fine. To each his/her own, we love the adventure of trying new ideas. Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska Cozy IV N64CY Osprey II N64SY Pietenpol N-1033B " There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > > > > > From: "Gordon Bowen" [snipped] > > > > Still not sold on idea of putting latex paint on as the fabric coating, ain't latex paint water soluble? > > > No. Latex based paint is suspended in water until it sets. When the water is allowed to evaporate out of the paint (paint drying), it sets and becomes a large molecule polymer whose bonds are not breakable by water immersion. > > If it were water soluble, latex exterior house paint probably wouldn't sell very well, would it? > > Mike (one of many on the list) > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:21 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood Handbook Great stuff - thanks! At 3:19 PM -0400 9/16/05, Michael Turrell wrote: >For those that are interested in the comparison of different wood >species,and probably more info than you require,see >http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch04.pdf >Tables 4-3b are in (inch pound)* for my US brethren.It's 46 pages >long but tables are allways handy to have.Knowledge is ever >useful.Regards,Mike -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:21 PM PST US <004501c5ba8c$2e8eb7a0$a8055118@dawsonaviation> <003b01c5baea$d0cfa570$7b9870d1@defaultcomp> From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight Thanks for the information about the wood and additional commentary. The tedlar/tyvek stuff is a cool idea, IMO, and for the reasons you give. DuPont officially says not to use it for them airy-planes, but... At 10:15 AM -0800 9/16/05, Gordon Bowen wrote: >A review of FAA's Circular indicates WRC not on acceptable list, but >white cedar or Port Orford cedar ok to substitute for spruce but >gluing requires some special work (I suspect due to the excessive >oils in cedar, oh but it does smell so good while you're working >with it). DFir, Noble Fir, Western Hemlock all ok to replace >spruce. Each has pros and cons due to workability and gluing. >White Pine and Yellow poplar ok to replace spruce but structures >must be larger due to reduced compression and/or shear. > >Guess because we're experimentalist and our own testpilots/design >engineers/mechanics/floorsweepers/bottlewashers/etc. when it comes >to our adventures with homebuilts, you could use just about any kind >of wood you want. But probably best to stick with some known types. > >Still not sold on idea of putting latex paint on as the fabric >coating, ain't latex paint water soluble? Heck, if you're gonna use >latex paint, why not just cover the plane with Tedlar or Tyvek >(white housewrapping stuff with Dupont or Home Depot's name on it), >like the ultralights do. It's been proven to work. Will last a >lifetime (limited pilot lifetime warranteed), will glue nicely, will >heat shrink. Great stuff, no nasty solvent laden paints needed. >Besides if you can't get Powdermilk Biscuits to sponsor you >homebuilt, why not Home Depot or Lowes even if they don't know >they're your sponsor. >Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska >Cozy IV N64CY >Osprey II N64SY >Pietenpol N-1033B >" There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan > -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:49 PM PST US From: Jim Lathrop Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight Nick, Harbor Freight has a 2 pin wood moisture meter on sale for $29.99. I have no idea how accurate it may be, or need to be. I got an e-mail ad for in-store specials. Check it out at: http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid2757 Jim Lathrop On 9/15/05, Nick Harris wrote: > > I think that it was Kiln dried. These were boards that would be used for > finish work. I will double check though. Where would you get a moisture > meter? How much? How does it work? > Nick > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael Turrell > *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:51 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight > > As you did not mention whether the DF was Kiln dried,I can only comment > that if it was then I would not worry as Cedar is light compared to DF. > If it is not kiln dried then I would borrow beg or steal a moisture meter > and measure its content.If it is anywhere above 12% you will have to wait > for it to air dry to this measure or find a local kiln to speed up the > process before using it in your project.Working with wood that has not at > least air dried to 12% or under will only give you grief as it shrinks after > your plane is put together. > From a cabinet maker who has learned most lessons the hard way! > Kind regards,Mike > Ps-If this was all common knowledge to you forgive me! > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:16 PM PST US From: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: corvair - prop recommendation and machine work --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Hadn't heard about the squared off journals... All I heard is that the cranks that were breaking all had prop extensios which against recommendations... I sent my crank to WW for machine work - That way I get the grinding, mod for the safety shaft, hybrid studs all in one shot.. Plus, I know it will be done to his standards and don't have to second guess. Will check out the place you mentioned - thanks. Tom B. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:40 PM PST US From: "Nick Harris" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight Jim Thanks for the heads up. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Lathrop To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 8:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight Nick, Harbor Freight has a 2 pin wood moisture meter on sale for $29.99. I have no idea how accurate it may be, or need to be. I got an e-mail ad for in-store specials. Check it out at: http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid2757 Jim Lathrop On 9/15/05, Nick Harris wrote: I think that it was Kiln dried. These were boards that would be used for finish work. I will double check though. Where would you get a moisture meter? How much? How does it work? Nick From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Turrell Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:51 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight As you did not mention whether the DF was Kiln dried,I can only comment that if it was then I would not worry as Cedar is light compared to DF. If it is not kiln dried then I would borrow beg or steal a moisture meter and measure its content.If it is anywhere above 12% you will have to wait for it to air dry to this measure or find a local kiln to speed up the process before using it in your project.Working with wood that has not at least air dried to 12% or under will only give you grief as it shrinks after your plane is put together. From a cabinet maker who has learned most lessons the hard way! Kind regards,Mike Ps-If this was all common knowledge to you forgive me! ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:13 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight I got sold on the idea of Latex in my project, when I read an article (with photos) of a person using Latex paint in his boat hul, also in his sailboat (both wood boats) and I didnt see any color in the lake's water... :-) Saludos Gary Gower. bike.mike@charter.net wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > From: "Gordon Bowen" [snipped] > > Still not sold on idea of putting latex paint on as the fabric coating, ain't latex paint water soluble? > No. Latex based paint is suspended in water until it sets. When the water is allowed to evaporate out of the paint (paint drying), it sets and becomes a large molecule polymer whose bonds are not breakable by water immersion. If it were water soluble, latex exterior house paint probably wouldn't sell very well, would it? Mike (one of many on the list) --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:31 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight, latex paint... Shhhh, The expensive covernig company could go bankrupt... :-) :-) We all know: "If not expensive, is no good" is very common, mainly in aviation. Now serious, I am very happy with the results (almost 6 years) and will do it again in any future dacron covered project I build, with a clear urethane light hand over it, to give "gloss and touch" nobody will notice is not the original thing. How much is the life of the covering (the cheap ASpruce 1.8 dacron), in a hangared ultralight flown about 50 to 80 hrs a year? Is out of the hangar almost all day, at least 40 of the 52 saturdays of the year... Just curious... Saludos Gary Gower. Dick Navratil wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" I flew thru a couple of rain showers this summer. It stayed outside overnight at Brodhead. I have accidently spilled gas while fueling a few times, I use 409 to clean the bugs off of the leading edges and my $100 Sherwin Williams job still looks good. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > >> >> From: "Gordon Bowen" [snipped] >> >> Still not sold on idea of putting latex paint on as the fabric coating, >> ain't latex paint water soluble? >> > No. Latex based paint is suspended in water until it sets. When the > water is allowed to evaporate out of the paint (paint drying), it sets and > becomes a large molecule polymer whose bonds are not breakable by water > immersion. > > If it were water soluble, latex exterior house paint probably wouldn't > sell very well, would it? > > Mike (one of many on the list) > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:58 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight Please, any comments, will like to buy one, if is good enough for our porpouse. Saludos Gary Gower. Jim Lathrop wrote: Nick, Harbor Freight has a 2 pin wood moisture meter on sale for $29.99. I have no idea how accurate it may be, or need to be. I got an e-mail ad for in-store specials. Check it out at: http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=2757 Jim Lathrop On 9/15/05, Nick Harris wrote:I think that it was Kiln dried. These were boards that would be used for finish work. I will double check though. Where would you get a moisture meter? How much? How does it work? Nick --------------------------------- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Turrell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight As you did not mention whether the DF was Kiln dried,I can only comment that if it was then I would not worry as Cedar is light compared to DF. If it is not kiln dried then I would borrow beg or steal a moisture meter and measure its content.If it is anywhere above 12% you will have to wait for it to air dry to this measure or find a local kiln to speed up the process before using it in your project.Working with wood that has not at least air dried to 12% or under will only give you grief as it shrinks after your plane is put together. From a cabinet maker who has learned most lessons the hard way! Kind regards,Mike Ps-If this was all common knowledge to you forgive me! ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:02 PM PST US From: Mark Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight, latex paint... SpamAssassin (score=-2.561, required 3, AWL 0.04, BAYES_00 -2.60) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Gary Gower wrote: > Shhhh, The expensive covernig company could go bankrupt... :-) :-) > > We all know: "If not expensive, is no good" is very common, mainly > in aviation. > > Now serious, I am very happy with the results (almost 6 years) and > will do it again in any future dacron covered project I build, with a > clear urethane light hand over it, to give "gloss and touch" nobody > will notice is not the original thing. > > How much is the life of the covering (the cheap ASpruce 1.8 > dacron), in a hangared ultralight flown about 50 to 80 hrs a year? > Is out of the hangar almost all day, at least 40 of the 52 saturdays > of the year... > Just curious... > > Saludos > Gary Gower. Something to think about though guys when the paint does start to go, and sooner or later they all do, using latex may cause problems getting it off and then insuring the fabric is still good underneath after you use a stripper that likely was not designed for a fabric in the first place. With the stripper that gets the other paints off get the latex off as well? Does it react differently with latex paint vs what it was designed to remove? If so does it still do the job equally as well? Can you be sure that chemical reactions that were never designed to be on that particular material will react in the same manner? How will latex stripper that you know will get latex paint off effect the life of the fabric? Are you taking 80 year fabric and making it less than 5 year fabric? Some of the most frustrated workers I have ever seen in aircraft paint shops happen to draw the local hanger queen that was bought by someone that whated to fix it up. They find out it had either auto paint or house paint on it and the price and frustration level goes way up. I once saw a Champ that was painted with a roller of all things. Sad thing is that for a while it was an improvement over what it had. Im all for saving money but Id talk to a paint shop before I went cheap on the paint. You do not want to be penny wise and pound foolish. Mark