---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/20/05: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:13 AM - Re: Re: DF weight, latex paint... (Gary Gower) 2. 01:52 AM - Re: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. (Clif Dawson) 3. 04:35 AM - Re: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. (Phillips, Jack) 4. 05:38 AM - Re: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. (Egan, John) 5. 06:34 AM - Re: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. (tmbrant1@netzero.com) 6. 06:41 AM - Re: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. (Phillips, Jack) 7. 07:10 AM - Re: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. () 8. 07:41 AM - tail main beams (Nick Harris) 9. 09:31 AM - Re: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. (Bill Church) 10. 10:03 AM - Re: tail main beams (tmbrant1@netzero.com) 11. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: distance between wheels (Gary Martens) 12. 02:17 PM - Re: tail main beams (Dennis Engelkenjohn) 13. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: DF weight, latex paint... (Carl Vought) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:36 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight, latex paint... Hello Ted, Well, I feel kind of unconfortable because my coments about Latex paint are 180d from Gordons comments, but I just write my first hand experience... No intention to argue him at all... Please do some test pieces (wood squares with dacron ironed and latex), You can not use silver Sttits because the Latex holds mechanical ("grabs" the strings of Dacron) so need to aply directly, and almost directly (about 5 to 10% water max) from the can, if the paints "drops" to the other side of the wing is too thin. Is better the hard side than thin... 3 light hands of clear dolor or 2 if aply darker color (blue for example) will do the job. The older first experiments (12? years ago)... advised to Clean the Dacron carefuly first with MEK, and aply a first hand of black latex to block the UV from the Sun, then the color hands on top. I did it almost this way, (I cleaned the Dacron first with a lightly damped old towel with half thinner and half Acetone, MEK is too dangerous for your hands) then applied the black, But you need up to 3 + hands of clear color (yellow in my case) to cover the black... This person (Jerry Buner ?) tested several squares. He painted some with black and some only color..; Last tests (about 10 (?) years later, cant remember precisly) gave him the same results (pass) in the tester for him, in both type of samples. I read recently from another source, (the boat latex paint article?) that the Latex paint is UV blocker by itself. I trust this. For my next project... In the same article mentions that Latex is the most used and tested paint in the world ... (?) Could be. Hope this helps. Saludos Gary Gower. Ted Brousseau wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" I have been following this discussion with interest. Does anyone know of a plane being covered with Stitts process through silver and then latex as the final coat? Are they compatible? I bought my latex recently and thought I was going to have to get "tough" with the sales person because she first started out by telling me that I should go to an automotive paint supply store because the latex was just going to peel off. After reading the label about how tenacious their premium paint was and I smiled and told her I would take that chance, she then told me the company would not allow her to sell it to me to use on an airplane. I smiled and showed her the color I wanted. She then said she didn't think they had any of the correct base. I smiled and asked if she would mind looking as I only needed one gallon. She finally gave in and mixed the color. Whew... Ted Trying to finish a Piet while dodging hurricanes =================================================== --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:01 AM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson You can get 6' and even 8' long levels now. This can be used as a straight edge, but you can use the 4' and move it along if you like. How thick is a pencil or pen line anyway? Trust your eye. I have a particular way off sharpening my woodworking pencils. I flatten one side from the center of the end up about 3 inches on my disk sander then round the other side off to a point. The flat side is very useful in sighting over uneven areas and running along a flat surface such as the face of that level we've been talking about. for instance, if you had a warped or bent board you would mark points on each end, line up the level to those and slide the pencil flat side along the flat of the level. The line on the board will be straight. Doc has given you some good info and a 16th of an inch in rib shape isn't going be a big deal. Just try to get all your ribs the same shape as each other. This can be a problem when it all goes together and you find your leading and trailing ends to be out of line with each other. Wood can be funny that way. Of course the more precise you manage, the less problems with fitting one thing to another will turn up later. I used an electric kettle with metal vacuum cleaner pipe stuffed into it for steaming. It fits well on some kettles. Just don't steal the pipe off your wife's vacuum. She might not be happy with that. :-) Thrift store kettle and vac tube- $7 US. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Case" Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Dave Case > > I am trying to get started with building a Pietenpol by putting > together a wing rib jig. Perhaps I've been thinking too hard (very > likely), and I have my mind all in a twist over how to lay out the > shape of the wing on my board. I've seen all the warnings about not > using the full size rib plan because of stretching/shrinkage from the > printer... > > So, I'm thinking, the rib is 5 feet long, so I'll need a 5 foot long > line drawn on my board, and all the good straight edges I know about > are 4 feet long (or a bit longer if you use a meter stick). So, will > it be precise enough just to move the straightedge along another foot, > and very carefully line it up with the previous mark, then finish the > job, or is there a better way? I guess I could lay down a chalk line, > but that seems very... non precise? I never took drafting in High > School, can you tell? > > Any tips on drawing lines at 90 degrees to this original line? Other > than using a square, and then checking diagonals with other lines for > equal distance? Should I be this anal retentive? Especially when the > original wing was designed on the drawing room floor? > > I suppose that most of the small errors above probably go away once > you drive in the nails and run the spline. > > I also have been looking at the plans themselves which poses another > question. The original plan for the ribs does not show any vertical > pieces to attach to the spars, the spar only attaches to the ribs at > the top and bottom. The full size rib plan has vertical pieces on the > insides of the spars, and then some websites have vertical pieces on > both sides of the spar, like the ribs from most of the other designs > I've looked at. I'm inclined to go with the version from the full > size plan, unless there's a good reason to do a vertical piece on each > side of the spar? > > Oh!, another question, I saw a message a while back about die cutting > gussets, but I can't find it. Were can you get a die like this, and > any idea how much it would cost? > > I saw Jack Phillips' plane at Oshkosh; simply gorgeous. > > Sorry about all the questions, I've been saving them up.. :) > > -- > David Case > Dav3xor@gmail.com > www.builddiary.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Hi Dave, Thanks for the compliments on my airplane. Doc Hutcheson gave you good advice. Don't worry too much about making the airfoil perfect. It will vary in between the ribs anyway, by as much as half an inch due to fabric shrinkage, so a few sixteenths difference on the ribs will make no real difference at all. Of much more importance is to make all the ribs the same. Once I had made all my ribs in the jig, I cut 2 pieces of spar material and stacked all the ribs on those spars so I had a solid hunk of ribs. The I used a belt sander to make them all exactly the same so there was no variation from rib to rib. A good tool to use for such a task is a perma-grit 560 mm (22") sanding block. I bought mine at OSH several years ago, but they are also available through Aircraft Spruce. Airplanes are not very precise, by their nature. You don't need to worry about being so precise in your layout. Even the F-16 jet fighter used a standard tolerance of +/- 1/32" on all but the most critical dminesions. Some things do matter, such as lining up your landing gear and rigging your wings and tail surfaces so the plane will fly hands off straight and level, and track straight on the ground. But even there, if your wings are within 1/8" of each other, that is probably good enough. I used a surveryor's transit to rig my wings, and got them within 1/16" of each other. The plane flies true. That's really all that matters. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- I am trying to get started with building a Pietenpol by putting together a wing rib jig. Perhaps I've been thinking too hard (very likely), and I have my mind all in a twist over how to lay out the shape of the wing on my board. I've seen all the warnings about not using the full size rib plan because of stretching/shrinkage from the printer... So, I'm thinking, the rib is 5 feet long, so I'll need a 5 foot long line drawn on my board, and all the good straight edges I know about are 4 feet long (or a bit longer if you use a meter stick). So, will it be precise enough just to move the straightedge along another foot, and very carefully line it up with the previous mark, then finish the job, or is there a better way? I guess I could lay down a chalk line, but that seems very... non precise? I never took drafting in High School, can you tell? Any tips on drawing lines at 90 degrees to this original line? Other than using a square, and then checking diagonals with other lines for equal distance? Should I be this anal retentive? Especially when the original wing was designed on the drawing room floor? I suppose that most of the small errors above probably go away once you drive in the nails and run the spline. I also have been looking at the plans themselves which poses another question. The original plan for the ribs does not show any vertical pieces to attach to the spars, the spar only attaches to the ribs at the top and bottom. The full size rib plan has vertical pieces on the insides of the spars, and then some websites have vertical pieces on both sides of the spar, like the ribs from most of the other designs I've looked at. I'm inclined to go with the version from the full size plan, unless there's a good reason to do a vertical piece on each side of the spar? Oh!, another question, I saw a message a while back about die cutting gussets, but I can't find it. Were can you get a die like this, and any idea how much it would cost? I saw Jack Phillips' plane at Oshkosh; simply gorgeous. Sorry about all the questions, I've been saving them up.. :) -- David Case Dav3xor@gmail.com www.builddiary.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. From: "Egan, John" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" Dave, I have a couple of tips for you also. 1. You can snap a chalked string to draw a straight line, then pencil over it with straight edges. Like others said, it's not that critical, though it feels good to be precise. 2. Perpendicular lines can be determined using a compass (the adjustable pencil and pointer compass tool, not the magnetic direction finder). Simply set your compass points about some distance apart (say 3"), place a pencil mark on your straight line where you want to come off perpendicularly. Place your compass point on the pencil mark, and land you compass pencil on the straight line, and draw a short hash mark to the left and right of the pencil mark (or your compass point) using your compass pencil. Now you will have three little pencil lines in row on your straight line (each hash should be 3" from the first mark). Now, remove the compass and adjust it to some dimension greater than it was (say 6"). Place the point of the compass onto one of the hash marks you just drew, and scribe an arc from the 6 o'clock position to the 12 o'clock position. The arc will pass through the other hash mark if you set the compass at 3" and 6". Now place the compass point on the other hash mark and do the same. Be sure to swing the arc the other direction this time, to pass the arc through the other hash mark. You should now have two arcs intersecting each other (kind of like a clam shell). Next, lay a straight edge through the two intersection points of the arcs and it will pass through the first pencil mark where you want your perpendicular line. This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ============================================================================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:19 AM PST US From: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Based on what everyone else is saying - and what I believe to be true - using the full size rib dwg shouldn't be a problem, so I wouldn't worry too much about getting lines drawn perfectly straight, except as a reference... To check mine, I had made an Autocad dwg and compared it to the full size dwg and there was so little variance I went with the full size dwg just to make life simpler. Taped it down the the table on one end, stretched it nice and tight, taped it to the other... Then carefully tape it down all around making sure it's completely flat. Then I taped wax paper over the whole thing and used jig blocks screwed into the table. It helps to use small scraps of wax paper under the glue joints of each rib but the whole thing is covered so if there are any leaks you won't ruin the full size dwg. I used a wallpaper steamer fit into a 4" round duct to steam the rib caps. Made a bending jig out of a 4 x 4 with the nose rib shape cut into it - slide the steamed ribs in, and clamp them down overnight. If you want I can send you a sketch. Tom B. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" One more note on the rib jig. Don't throw it away after you finish building your ribs. If you ever have to do a repair it is very helpful to have the original jig to work from. I had to repair one rib from my forced landing last fall and it was easy to do with my old rib jig - don't know what I would have done without it. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tmbrant1@netzero.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Based on what everyone else is saying - and what I believe to be true - using the full size rib dwg shouldn't be a problem, so I wouldn't worry too much about getting lines drawn perfectly straight, except as a reference... To check mine, I had made an Autocad dwg and compared it to the full size dwg and there was so little variance I went with the full size dwg just to make life simpler. Taped it down the the table on one end, stretched it nice and tight, taped it to the other... Then carefully tape it down all around making sure it's completely flat. Then I taped wax paper over the whole thing and used jig blocks screwed into the table. It helps to use small scraps of wax paper under the glue joints of each rib but the whole thing is covered so if there are any leaks you won't ruin the full size dwg. I used a wallpaper steamer fit into a 4" round duct to steam the rib caps. Made a bending jig out of a 4 x 4 with the nose rib shape cut into it - slide the steamed ribs in, and clamp them down overnight. If you want I can send you a sketch. Tom B. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:51 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" So I should cancel my "rib jig burning party"? I ended up making extra ribs for the following reasons: I selected the best ones to use to build with, and I used others for destructive testing of the joints (I broke them). I still have a few left that I suppose are good for spares. Builder report: Have wings wood work 95% complete, have leading edge plywood on and sanded, trailing edges on and sanded, need to flip wing over to finish bottom surface of ailerons and any 1/16" plywood patches on the bottom surface. Thank you all who helped me through my wing building summer. I would not have completed these as fast without your help. This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ============================================================================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:53 AM PST US From: "Nick Harris" Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail main beams Hi all, The material that I found for the tail pieces is only 3/4 thick, so when building the main beams I would like to build the shape with a 1 X 1/4 piece and a 7/8 X 5/8 piece. I would then put a 1/8 deep X 5/8 wide slot in the 1/4 piece then glue the two pieces together. The only problem I see with this is when I go to put the 1/8 plywood stiffener for the hinges in, I will be cutting all the way through the 1/4 pieces in the middle of the board where the 1/8 x 5/8 slots are. I hope I explained this well enough to get some good answers. If the glue joint is supposed to be stronger than the wood then this should not be a problem. Could aluminum be used for the stiffeners? Thanks Nick H ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:14 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. From: "Bill Church" Welcome to the list, Dave. I have just begun building my Pietenpol this year, and like you, I began with the rib jig. I work with CAD every day, so I redrew the wing rib on the computer, and plotted it out, full size, on a big hunk of paper. I went to Home Depot and bought a piece of 3/4" MDF that they called a "shelf board" (pre-cut 12" x 96", at a cost of CDN$5). This was very flat and smooth, and had a nice straight edge that was eight feet long (there's a cheap straightedge for you - at least good enough for what you need it for). Then I tried to figure out a way to transfer the plotted wing rib onto the board, and was not happy with any of my ideas, so I decided to go back to the old-fashioned way - I decided to "loft" or, just measure and draw the rib on the board. I cut the board down to about 5 1/2 feet, and drew a straight line parallel to one edge, about 2" up (datum line). Then, running a regular old combination square along the straight edge of the MDF board, I made my perpendicular lines (at the proper spacings as shown on the plans). From this I was able to plot the rib profile. I used some french curves to get nice smooth lines, but probably the best method would have been to use a thin strip of wood. Then I drew the entire rib on the board, using pencil, and for no reason other than because I wanted to, I colored in the capstrip locations. I cut a bunch of small plywood rectangles, which I screwed into position at a bunch of locations around the profile. I took a short length of 1 1/4" hardwood dowel, and cut a bunch of 7/16" thick slices. I drilled holes off-center through the discs, and used these as cams. The other thing I did was that I bent up strips of 1/8" thick aluminum to make clamps to hold my gussets in place while the glue sets. As you can see in the attached picture, I have threaded rods sticking out of the board, to provide the holding power for these gusset clamps. The threaded rods are set into blind nuts, or tee-nuts on the back side of the board, and I used wing nuts to adjust the clamping pressure. The pressure to be applied when gluing is minimal - just enough to hold it in place - you don't want to starve the glue joint. Okay, I went a bit overboard on the rib jig. But I had fun making it. My first couple of ribs I had to deal with a bit of glue runout, which makes the rib stick to the jig. Some people use Saran Wrap, or other plastic films, or waxed paper, and some use other techniques. I did some reading (Tony Bingelis' books) and came to the realization that the gusset does all the work in holding these rib bits together. The butt joints of the spruce do not even need to be glued. It's the gusset that counts. So I load my sticks into my jig, apply my cams, and mix up my epoxy. While the glue is doing its thing, I get all my gussets laid out in their approximate positions. Then I apply a thin (1/32"?) layer of the epoxy to the entire back side of the gusset (this will be a benefit when it comes time to seal all the wood before covering, as your gussets, when on both sides of your rib will form tiny, hard to reach pockets, that you won't really enjoy sticking a small paint brush into 390 times). When the gusset is placed in proper position over the joint, I apply my gusset clamp - just enough pressure to hold it in place. I let the whole mess sit for at least a day, then take it out of the jig. Then I reload the jig, and repeat the above process, but also install the gussets on the back side of rib #1. And before I put the back gussets in place, I apply a very thin layer of epoxy to the edges of the spruce that will be inside those "pockets" I mentioned before. I didn't use any clamps to hold the gussets on the back side, just layed the rib flat till the glue set. I think the most important thing about your rib jig is that you make sure that it will provide consistant ribs, and that your spars are located properly (parallel and at proper spacing). If you decide to use the full size rib plan, check the spacing of the spars - they might be off. So, stop thinking too hard, and start building! Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Case Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Subscriber, Wing Rib Jig Questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Dave Case I am trying to get started with building a Pietenpol by putting together a wing rib jig. Perhaps I've been thinking too hard (very likely), and I have my mind all in a twist over how to lay out the shape of the wing on my board. I've seen all the warnings about not using the full size rib plan because of stretching/shrinkage from the printer... ... ... ... Sorry about all the questions, I've been saving them up.. :) -- David Case Dav3xor@gmail.com www.builddiary.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:02 AM PST US From: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail main beams --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" I think I understand what you're saying... I did something similar except without slotting the 1/4 piece. I wouldn't bother slotting it - just line it up and glue the pieces together. I tried making this out of one piece and the two piece version turned out more consistent. As for cutting through the 1/4" piece - not completely sure what you mean, but as you say, the glue is stronger than the wood anyway. My stiffeners (gussets) went on inside the 1/4" piece, then the 1/4" gets sanded to match level of gussets. Hopefully that makes sense. My $0.02 Tom B. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:57 AM PST US From: "Gary Martens" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: distance between wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary Martens" Michael: Yes I know Jill Oakes and have seen her beautifully built airplane, but no, she did not recommend it. It was a long discovery process. My dream airplane is the Tiger Moth, however I want to use my pietenpol for crop scouting by air and the lower wing on the Tiger Moth gets in the way. I came across a story in an EAA magazine and knew this was the right plane for me. From: "Michael Turrell" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: distance between wheels Date sent: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:39:42 -0400 Send reply to: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Hi Gary,noticed that you hail from the University of Manitoba and was > just curious as to whether Jill Oakes suggested the Pietenpol to you.I > had the pleasure of meeting her at Oshkosh 03 and she mentioned that > she was thinking of building a Pietenpol next.I saw her Acro 2 at > Oshkosh this year but never got the chance to say hi again,so if you > see her say hi from the guy that took a lot of pictures of her Acro in > 03.Good luck on your Piet. Kind regards,Mike > > Do not archive Regards, gary martens CCA Room 222 Agriculture Building Plant Science Department University of Manitoba R3T 2N2 (204) 474-8227 gary_martens@umanitoba.ca ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:00 PM PST US From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail main beams I had Wicks make all the shapes for the tail beams according to plans. Cost like $ 1.60 per linear foot. Saved a lot of work and cutter buying on my part. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Harris To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:41 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail main beams Hi all, The material that I found for the tail pieces is only 3/4 thick, so when building the main beams I would like to build the shape with a 1 X 1/4 piece and a 7/8 X 5/8 piece. I would then put a 1/8 deep X 5/8 wide slot in the 1/4 piece then glue the two pieces together. The only problem I see with this is when I go to put the 1/8 plywood stiffener for the hinges in, I will be cutting all the way through the 1/4 pieces in the middle of the board where the 1/8 x 5/8 slots are. I hope I explained this well enough to get some good answers. If the glue joint is supposed to be stronger than the wood then this should not be a problem. Could aluminum be used for the stiffeners? Thanks Nick H ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:55 PM PST US From: "Carl Vought" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight, latex paint... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Vought" Do you mind sharing with us the brand name of the paint?...Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: DF weight, latex paint... > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" > > > I have been following this discussion with interest. Does anyone know of > a > plane being covered with Stitts process through silver and then latex as > the > final coat? Are they compatible? > > I bought my latex recently and thought I was going to have to get "tough" > with the sales person because she first started out by telling me that I > should go to an automotive paint supply store because the latex was just > going to peel off. After reading the label about how tenacious their > premium paint was and I smiled and told her I would take that chance, she > then told me the company would not allow her to sell it to me to use on an > airplane. I smiled and showed her the color I wanted. She then said she > didn't think they had any of the correct base. I smiled and asked if she > would mind looking as I only needed one gallon. She finally gave in and > mixed the color. Whew... > > Ted > Trying to finish a Piet while dodging hurricanes > > >