---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/03/05: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:53 AM - Re: Sealing wood (Phillips, Jack) 2. 07:53 AM - Re: Sealing wood (Mark) 3. 08:52 AM - Re: Sealing wood (Galen Hutcheson) 4. 10:05 AM - Re: Sealing wood (Mark) 5. 10:25 AM - Re: Sealing wood (Phillips, Jack) 6. 12:18 PM - Re: Sealing wood (owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com) 7. 02:42 PM - Sealing wood (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 8. 03:20 PM - off topic (walt evans) 9. 04:47 PM - Elevator control cable connections (John and Phyllis Smoyer) 10. 05:06 PM - Re: Elevator control cable connect (Michael Turrell) 11. 05:41 PM - Re: Sealing wood (Gary Gower) 12. 06:26 PM - Re: Sealing wood (Mark) 13. 08:03 PM - Re: Elevator control cable connections (Peter W Johnson) 14. 08:29 PM - It's alive!!! (Jim Markle) 15. 08:37 PM - a kit project (Dick Navratil) 16. 08:46 PM - Re: Elevator control cable connections (Dick Navratil) 17. 09:04 PM - Re: It's alive!!! (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:19 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Mark, I used PolyFiber's 2-part Epoxy Varnish and highly recommend it, although it ain't cheap. Thin the first coat about 50% with their reducer to increase penetration into the wood and then put two more full strength coats on. Doesn't add too much weight and is about the most bulletproof coating you can put on wood. Some varnishes, even polyurethanes, can be attacked by the fabric finishing materials, lifting them off the wood and exposing the wood below to the potential for rot. PolyFiber's Epoxy Varnish is very expensive at about $30 a quart (mixed), but for about $100 you can make the wood of your structure last indefinitely - not a bad trade in my opinion. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark I am beginning to think ahead a bit. I am about to start construction and I am wondering if there is anything I can coat the wood with to make it safe for outside storage. Hanger space in my neck of the woods is very difficult to come by and pricey when it is available. The thought of a wooden airplane that I spent that much time to build outside just makes me cringe, but I am sure this bridge has been crossed before. Would a coat of varish or expoy or whatever effectively weatherproof the wood so it would be safe to let it face winter without damage? If so just how much weight is it likely to add? Thanks in advance Mark ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:10 AM PST US From: Mark Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood SpamAssassin (score=-2.516, required 3, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.08, BAYES_00 -2.60) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Phillips, Jack wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" > >Mark, > >I used PolyFiber's 2-part Epoxy Varnish and highly recommend it, >although it ain't cheap. Thin the first coat about 50% with their >reducer to increase penetration into the wood and then put two more full >strength coats on. Doesn't add too much weight and is about the most >bulletproof coating you can put on wood. Some varnishes, even >polyurethanes, can be attacked by the fabric finishing materials, >lifting them off the wood and exposing the wood below to the potential >for rot. > >PolyFiber's Epoxy Varnish is very expensive at about $30 a quart >(mixed), but for about $100 you can make the wood of your structure last >indefinitely - not a bad trade in my opinion. > >Jack Phillips >NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" > > Jack not doing something like that I would call penny wise and pound foolish. Can the wood then stand outside storage up in the colder climates?? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:43 AM PST US From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Mark, I do feel the epoxy is probably the best you can use to protect the wood, but it is very expensive to use. I have done some checking around and have come up with an alternative that should work well. I am using (as a first coat) a 40% linseed oil/ 40% spar urethane/ 20% tung oil mixture. I allow this coat to dry throughly over several days. This mixture penetrates deeply into the wood and the linseed oil helps to carry the urethane deep into the wood. I follow up with a second coat with a mixture of 80%/20% spar urethane/tung oil to complete the process. This process is used where fabric will be attached to the wood. On the other wood, I will porbably use just the urethane/tung oil mixture. I am only experimenting but so far, I am very impressed with the results. It is far less expensive than epoxy varnish. If money is not a concern to you, you may wish to use the epoxy method. I am having to keep the costs down as low as possible, so I chose this method. Hope this is of some help. Doc --- Mark wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark > > > I am beginning to think ahead a bit. I am about to > start construction > and I am wondering if there is anything I can coat > the wood with to make > it safe for outside storage. Hanger space in my > neck of the woods is > very difficult to come by and pricey when it is > available. The thought > of a wooden airplane that I spent that much time to > build outside just > makes me cringe, but I am sure this bridge has been > crossed before. > Would a coat of varish or expoy or whatever > effectively weatherproof the > wood so it would be safe to let it face winter > without damage? If so > just how much weight is it likely to add? Thanks in > advance > > Mark > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:01 AM PST US From: Mark Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood SpamAssassin (score=-2.523, required 3, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.08, BAYES_00 -2.60) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Galen Hutcheson wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson > >Mark, > >I do feel the epoxy is probably the best you can use >to protect the wood, but it is very expensive to use. >I have done some checking around and have come up with >an alternative that should work well. I am using (as >a first coat) a 40% linseed oil/ 40% spar urethane/ >20% tung oil mixture. I allow this coat to dry >throughly over several days. This mixture penetrates >deeply into the wood and the linseed oil helps to >carry the urethane deep into the wood. I follow up >with a second coat with a mixture of 80%/20% spar >urethane/tung oil to complete the process. This >process is used where fabric will be attached to the >wood. On the other wood, I will porbably use just the >urethane/tung oil mixture. I am only experimenting >but so far, I am very impressed with the results. It >is far less expensive than epoxy varnish. If money is >not a concern to you, you may wish to use the epoxy >method. I am having to keep the costs down as low as >possible, so I chose this method. Hope this is of >some help. > >Doc > > If I knew I could get hanger space at something reasonable at the end, what you are doing sounds both logical and effective from a common sense approach. Money is always a concern or I wouldn't likely be building a Piet, but there are places and times to cut and times not to. Even at $30 a quart, if a gallon would do the whole airplane, it likely for me wouldn't be worth the risks for the savings. I do not know exactly how it will work out but avweb reported that Allegeny Co airport is attempting to raise hanger rates from $500 to $1500 a month. If it happens and AGC is not far from my house, either there are more people around with more money than I thought, or there is going to be a mass goodbye filling up every hanger around for miles. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Mark, If you are planning to use the PolyFiber process, I strongly recommend you get some of their products and try them on whatever type of varnish you end up using, to make sure they don't "lift" the varnish from the wood. Their epoxy varnish and their epoxy primers are specifically formulated to resist their covering chemicals. I tried at first using a good grade of marine polyurethane varnish on my wings. Then I tried applying a little polyfiber reducer to it and it just dissolved away. I re-coated everything with their epoxy varnish after that experiment. Other finishes might resist polybrush, but I would try them before committing. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- Galen Hutcheson wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson > >Mark, > >I do feel the epoxy is probably the best you can use >to protect the wood, but it is very expensive to use. >I have done some checking around and have come up with >an alternative that should work well. I am using (as >a first coat) a 40% linseed oil/ 40% spar urethane/ >20% tung oil mixture. I allow this coat to dry >throughly over several days. This mixture penetrates >deeply into the wood and the linseed oil helps to >carry the urethane deep into the wood. I follow up >with a second coat with a mixture of 80%/20% spar >urethane/tung oil to complete the process. This >process is used where fabric will be attached to the >wood. On the other wood, I will porbably use just the >urethane/tung oil mixture. I am only experimenting >but so far, I am very impressed with the results. It >is far less expensive than epoxy varnish. If money is >not a concern to you, you may wish to use the epoxy >method. I am having to keep the costs down as low as >possible, so I chose this method. Hope this is of >some help. > >Doc > > If I knew I could get hanger space at something reasonable at the end, what you are doing sounds both logical and effective from a common sense approach. Money is always a concern or I wouldn't likely be building a Piet, but there are places and times to cut and times not to. Even at $30 a quart, if a gallon would do the whole airplane, it likely for me wouldn't be worth the risks for the savings. I do not know exactly how it will work out but avweb reported that Allegeny Co airport is attempting to raise hanger rates from $500 to $1500 a month. If it happens and AGC is not far from my house, either there are more people around with more money than I thought, or there is going to be a mass goodbye filling up every hanger around for miles. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:25 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" I found the same problem. I solved it by buying and applying the Poly fiber Epoxy with a small roller to all the fabric attach points. I still have some of the quart kit left. I didn't bother to recoat the inside structure with it. That way I got both cheap and good. Steve E -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Mark, If you are planning to use the PolyFiber process, I strongly recommend you get some of their products and try them on whatever type of varnish you end up using, to make sure they don't "lift" the varnish from the wood. Their epoxy varnish and their epoxy primers are specifically formulated to resist their covering chemicals. I tried at first using a good grade of marine polyurethane varnish on my wings. Then I tried applying a little polyfiber reducer to it and it just dissolved away. I re-coated everything with their epoxy varnish after that experiment. Other finishes might resist polybrush, but I would try them before committing. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- Galen Hutcheson wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson > >Mark, > >I do feel the epoxy is probably the best you can use >to protect the wood, but it is very expensive to use. >I have done some checking around and have come up with >an alternative that should work well. I am using (as >a first coat) a 40% linseed oil/ 40% spar urethane/ >20% tung oil mixture. I allow this coat to dry >throughly over several days. This mixture penetrates >deeply into the wood and the linseed oil helps to >carry the urethane deep into the wood. I follow up >with a second coat with a mixture of 80%/20% spar >urethane/tung oil to complete the process. This >process is used where fabric will be attached to the >wood. On the other wood, I will porbably use just the >urethane/tung oil mixture. I am only experimenting >but so far, I am very impressed with the results. It >is far less expensive than epoxy varnish. If money is >not a concern to you, you may wish to use the epoxy >method. I am having to keep the costs down as low as >possible, so I chose this method. Hope this is of >some help. > >Doc > > If I knew I could get hanger space at something reasonable at the end, what you are doing sounds both logical and effective from a common sense approach. Money is always a concern or I wouldn't likely be building a Piet, but there are places and times to cut and times not to. Even at $30 a quart, if a gallon would do the whole airplane, it likely for me wouldn't be worth the risks for the savings. I do not know exactly how it will work out but avweb reported that Allegeny Co airport is attempting to raise hanger rates from $500 to $1500 a month. If it happens and AGC is not far from my house, either there are more people around with more money than I thought, or there is going to be a mass goodbye filling up every hanger around for miles. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:21 PM PST US ETAuAhUAwiorKh9ceOwnlmezXj2w527NXuUCFQCOexrzH4hVPY0CkS6G7mkwfwcXjQ== From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Mark: You might also want to look at every low spot or dam that could hold moisture including lower fus. side gussets, and drill drain holes threw all of these "dams" Leon S. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:45 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: off topic My daughter told me about this site. It's for people who just want to get rid of something around their house. Never know what you'll find. Motorcycle wheels, spruce,turnbuckles,blah,blah : ) : ) http://www.freecycle.org/ Goes by state and area. Kind of a pain to sign up for, but seems interesting. walt evans NX140DL do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:38 PM PST US From: "John and Phyllis Smoyer" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator control cable connections I'm trying to figure out how to connect control cables from the bellcrank to the elevator control horns. Many of the photos I've seen on the matronics site show connection to the horns through a u-shaped shackle. I haven't yet found any pictures that show the connection to the aft side of the bell crank. Are turnbuckles used at this connection? Do you connect two sets of cables, one to the left elevator horn, and one to the right elevator horn to the hole on the aft end of the bell crank? If so, what are the fittings to use at that point? Thanks to everyone on this list for the great info and advice that's passed back and forth. Best Regards, John Smoyer ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:29 PM PST US From: "Michael Turrell" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator control cable connect John you might try this site http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/About.htm Its a gn1 but I would think the connections should be about the same but I recall when I looked through the pics that there were some good pics of the elevator cable connections.Have a look anyway it might be of some help.A picture is worth oodles! Kind regards,Mike Turrell ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:25 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood Mark, In USA there are LOTS of airstrips and little airports everywhere, I dont think a Piet HAS to be in an airport (I mean paved as airport) , a good grass airstrip where you can rent a piece of land (30 x 20 ft) and build a simple "T" hanger will do. Even one you could desasemble if you buy a space someplace in a near future. I visited Texas (Houston) a couple of years ago, and there are hundreds of strips and little airports around, Well is BIG Texas...But I think where you live could happen something similar, just look around while you build your project... Maybe I am wrong but could work... Saludos Gary Gower. Mark wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Galen Hutcheson wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson > >Mark, > >I do feel the epoxy is probably the best you can use >to protect the wood, but it is very expensive to use. >I have done some checking around and have come up with >an alternative that should work well. I am using (as >a first coat) a 40% linseed oil/ 40% spar urethane/ >20% tung oil mixture. I allow this coat to dry >throughly over several days. This mixture penetrates >deeply into the wood and the linseed oil helps to >carry the urethane deep into the wood. I follow up >with a second coat with a mixture of 80%/20% spar >urethane/tung oil to complete the process. This >process is used where fabric will be attached to the >wood. On the other wood, I will porbably use just the >urethane/tung oil mixture. I am only experimenting >but so far, I am very impressed with the results. It >is far less expensive than epoxy varnish. If money is >not a concern to you, you may wish to use the epoxy >method. I am having to keep the costs down as low as >possible, so I chose this method. Hope this is of >some help. > >Doc > > If I knew I could get hanger space at something reasonable at the end, what you are doing sounds both logical and effective from a common sense approach. Money is always a concern or I wouldn't likely be building a Piet, but there are places and times to cut and times not to. Even at $30 a quart, if a gallon would do the whole airplane, it likely for me wouldn't be worth the risks for the savings. I do not know exactly how it will work out but avweb reported that Allegeny Co airport is attempting to raise hanger rates from $500 to $1500 a month. If it happens and AGC is not far from my house, either there are more people around with more money than I thought, or there is going to be a mass goodbye filling up every hanger around for miles. --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:11 PM PST US From: Mark Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sealing wood SpamAssassin (score=-2.528, required 3, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.07, BAYES_00 -2.60) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Gary Gower wrote: > Mark, > > In USA there are LOTS of airstrips and little airports everywhere, > > I dont think a Piet HAS to be in an airport (I mean paved as > airport) , a good grass airstrip where you can rent a piece of land > (30 x 20 ft) and build a simple "T" hanger will do. > Even one you could desasemble if you buy a space someplace in a near > future. > > I visited Texas (Houston) a couple of years ago, and there are > hundreds of strips and little airports around, Well is BIG > Texas...But I think where you live could happen something similar, > just look around while you build your project... > > Maybe I am wrong but could work... > > Saludos > Gary Gower. A Piet probably would be better off grass, but there are only a couple near me and the hangar space I know right now is full. In western PA you also have terrain problems. The only ground that is even close to level was created with a bulldozer. The locals call them hills, but many I would call small mountains. If I were still in the south, Id find a farmer with a long pasture and a barn. The possibility of putting up some sort of cover is there, but even the little grass strips have lots of trouble when extra buildings show up. The tax man cometh. Its like the attorney that ask for a delay on the grounds that his client had some cash somewhere that he didn't know about. It will be a while before its an issue for sure, but at this stage of the game I do not want to not do something that I could have done to make it a viable option even its just for a short time. I would lots rather hanger it. Yet if it can't be done, it can't be done and I don't want to work that hard on something to watch it rot. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:46 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Elevator control cable connections John, Check out HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com. I have some pictures of the control systems and fittings on there. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi, Australia. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John and Phyllis Smoyer Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator control cable connections I'm trying to figure out how to connect control cables from the bellcrank to the elevator control horns. Many of the photos I've seen on the matronics site show connection to the horns through a u-shaped shackle. I haven't yet found any pictures that show the connection to the aft side of the bell crank. Are turnbuckles used at this connection? Do you connect two sets of cables, one to the left elevator horn, and one to the right elevator horn to the hole on the aft end of the bell crank? If so, what are the fittings to use at that point? Thanks to everyone on this list for the great info and advice that's passed back and forth. Best Regards, John Smoyer -- -- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:54 PM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Pietenpol-List: It's alive!!! I hooked up the P-lead, bolted on the prop, filled the aluminum radiator with water and poured in 5 quarts of oil..... And before long a Model A in Plano came to life..... (Ok, NOT before long but I'll leave out all the details about the arm numbing propping, flooding the carb numerous times and finally realizing the mag was 180 degrees off) The old water pump is leaking a bit but other than that, she purred..... Water temp and oil pressure good..... What an incredible sound...... Jim Markle Plano, TX 214.505.6101 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:54 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: a kit project What do you do after building a Piet? I gathered as many volunteers as possible and am giving this a try. I'm leaving the climbing to my son and son in law. It has been quite a hand full so far, but I'm enjoying it. It will be 60x60 with 18' walls and be stocked with cold beer at all times for visitors. I am building this at Osceola, Wi. I will have space available for rental next spring. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:47 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator control cable connections Why not just make a cable that is long enough to reach from the aft of the rudder to the bell crank and back again, with a thimble and swedge fitting at the bell crank. Then fit a shackle to the bell crank. Leave the extra length on the ends while you attach your turnbuckles and use "U" type clamps to temp secure the cables to the turnbuckles till you are sure of the finished length. Then you won't have lots of spare pieces of cable ( too short for anything) laying around like I do. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: John and Phyllis Smoyer To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 6:50 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator control cable connections I'm trying to figure out how to connect control cables from the bellcrank to the elevator control horns. Many of the photos I've seen on the matronics site show connection to the horns through a u-shaped shackle. I haven't yet found any pictures that show the connection to the aft side of the bell crank. Are turnbuckles used at this connection? Do you connect two sets of cables, one to the left elevator horn, and one to the right elevator horn to the hole on the aft end of the bell crank? If so, what are the fittings to use at that point? Thanks to everyone on this list for the great info and advice that's passed back and forth. Best Regards, John Smoyer ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:41 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: It's alive!!! Jim, I LOVE stories like that !! I can just hear that ol Model A pucketa, pucketa, pucketa !! Another milestone, for sure !! Congrats !! Chuck G NX770CG