---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/10/05: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:09 AM - LOC... (Matt Dralle) 2. 05:22 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/09/05 (tbyh@aol.com) 3. 05:36 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/09/05 (Phillips, Jack) 4. 06:03 AM - Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage (Jim Lathrop) 5. 06:21 AM - Re: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage (Phillips, Jack) 6. 06:45 AM - Piet Community Member (Joe Krzes) 7. 07:25 AM - Re: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage (Carl Vought) 8. 07:27 AM - Re: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage (Jim Lathrop) 9. 08:26 AM - Re: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage (Phillips, Jack) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:51 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: LOC... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Hi Listers, Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its sort of my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors (LOC)? As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems at least - if not a whole lot more - valuable as a building/flying/recreating/entertainment tool as your typical magazine subscription! Please take minute and assure that your name is on this year's LOC? Show others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by popping a personal check in the mail to: Matronics Email Lists c/o Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:43 AM PST US From: tbyh@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/09/05 Question: I'm building my Jenny-style landing gear and am wondering what size bolts most folks use for the metal attachment fittings on the fuselage lower longerons and for the gear struts. Are you using 3/16" (AN3) or 1/4" (AN4) bolts? Or...? Many thanks! Fred B. -----Original Message----- From: Pietenpol-List Digest Server Subject: Pietenpol-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/09/05 * ================================================== Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================== Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list/Digest.Pietenpol-List.2005-11-09.html Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list/Digest.Pietenpol-List.2005-11-09.txt ================================================ EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================ Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/09/05: 3 Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:49 PM - No Mail (Richard Gillespie) 2. 02:20 PM - Re: No Mail (w b evans) 3. 06:10 PM - Re: No Mail (Richard Gillespie) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:13 PM PST US From: "Richard Gillespie" Subject: Pietenpol-List: No Mail Haven't rec'd any mail lately. What happened? Richard Gillespie margdick@peoplepc.co m ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:54 PM PST US From: "w b evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: No Mail I got you. and rec'd some yesterday. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Gillespie To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 4:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: No Mail Haven't rec'd any mail lately. What happened? Richard Gillespie margdick@peoplepc.co m ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:39 PM PST US From: "Richard Gillespie" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: No Mail Thanks Walt. Dick Gillespie ----- Original Message ----- From: w b evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: No Mail I got you. and rec'd some yesterday. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Gillespie To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 4:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: No Mail Haven't rec'd any mail lately. What happened? Richard Gillespie margdick@peoplepc.co m ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:46 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/09/05 From: "Phillips, Jack" Hi Fred, I used AN4's (1/4"), with MS21042 locknuts. Held up well to the groundloop last year (the gear was about the only thing that didn't receive some damage). Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tbyh@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/09/05 Question: I'm building my Jenny-style landing gear and am wondering what size bolts most folks use for the metal attachment fittings on the fuselage lower longerons and for the gear struts. Are you using 3/16" (AN3) or 1/4" (AN4) bolts? Or...? Many thanks! Fred B. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:50 AM PST US From: Jim Lathrop Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage All, I have been lurking on this group for about a year now and have started building my Piet. I have the wing ribs completed, and while I'm waiting for a shipment of spruce for the tail feathers, I got to thinking about the fuselage. I would like to go with the steel tube version because I like working with metal more than wood and my next project after the Piet is a Bearhawk which has a steel tube fuselage. I know that building the steel tube will be slower due to the need to design the fittings which which aren't spelled out in the plans for the steel tube version, but I am willing to accept that. When talking to owners/pilots at Brodhead this year everyone said to go with the long fuselage, it gives you more room. I have made the following observations about the two fuselage designs from the 1934 Improved Air Camper plans. Looking at the plans for both fuselages I see that from the cross brace defining the back of the rear seat to the cross brace defining the back of the front seat is 33" on the steel tube vs. 31" on the long wood. Similarly the front pit is 29" for the steel vs. 28.75for the long wood. Overall from firewall to the back seat cross brace on the steel tube is 74.5" and 76.25" for the long wood. From all of this, I gather that space wise, I am sacrificing 1.75" of leg room for the passenger and gaining a couple of inches for the pilot with the steel tube version. The real difference between the two is from the rear seat to the tail post. The long wood version is 9 5/8" longer than the steel tube version. I do not have my pilots license yet, and this is where my question comes in. Would not moving the tail feathers back nearly 10" inches make them much more responsive than on the short version, or is this really not a noticeable change? It seems to me that with a plane as light as the Pietenpol, that extra leverage would be significant. Has anyone flown both the long and short version (wood or steel) and have any input on the differences? Thanks, Jim Lathrop Columbus, OH ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage From: "Phillips, Jack" Jim, Good questions. I have flown both my long fuselage Piet and Mike Cuy's short version (both in wood - have not flown a steel Piet). What I can tell you is there is virtually no difference in feel or sensitivity of the controls between the long and short versions. Both have more than adequate control response. Nor does it seem to affect ground handling much. I can also tell you that adding 10" to the tail makes the whole plane heavier, and adds to an already tail-heavy situation. If you have adequate legroom in the shorter fuselage, I would recommend building that. Of course, if you have long legs (as I do), a short light airplane is not going to make you very happy if you cannot be comfortable sitting in it. I can tell you from personal experience, if you EVER take a trip in your Pietenpol, you will be sitting in it for a long, long time and you'd better make it as comfortable as possible. If possible, try to sit in both versions and try them on for size. If at all possible, sit in them long enough to get a feel for what a long trip will feel like (I found on my trip to Brodhead this year that any leg over an hour and a half got to be pretty uncomfortable). Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lathrop Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage All, I have been lurking on this group for about a year now and have started building my Piet. I have the wing ribs completed, and while I'm waiting for a shipment of spruce for the tail feathers, I got to thinking about the fuselage. I would like to go with the steel tube version because I like working with metal more than wood and my next project after the Piet is a Bearhawk which has a steel tube fuselage. I know that building the steel tube will be slower due to the need to design the fittings which which aren't spelled out in the plans for the steel tube version, but I am willing to accept that. When talking to owners/pilots at Brodhead this year everyone said to go with the long fuselage, it gives you more room. I have made the following observations about the two fuselage designs from the 1934 Improved Air Camper plans. Looking at the plans for both fuselages I see that from the cross brace defining the back of the rear seat to the cross brace defining the back of the front seat is 33" on the steel tube vs. 31" on the long wood. Similarly the front pit is 29" for the steel vs. 28.75 for the long wood. Overall from firewall to the back seat cross brace on the steel tube is 74.5" and 76.25" for the long wood. From all of this, I gather that space wise, I am sacrificing 1.75" of leg room for the passenger and gaining a couple of inches for the pilot with the steel tube version. The real difference between the two is from the rear seat to the tail post. The long wood version is 9 5/8" longer than the steel tube version. I do not have my pilots license yet, and this is where my question comes in. Would not moving the tail feathers back nearly 10" inches make them much more responsive than on the short version, or is this really not a noticeable change? It seems to me that with a plane as light as the Pietenpol, that extra leverage would be significant. Has anyone flown both the long and short version (wood or steel) and have any input on the differences? Thanks, Jim Lathrop Columbus, OH ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:42 AM PST US From: "Joe Krzes" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet Community Member --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Joe Krzes" Sterling, Sorry to hear about your Dad. Sounds like quite a guy. Former WASP instructor passes away Sweet Water Reporter Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:16 AM PST A former WASP instructor passed away Tuesday. Funeral services for Roy A. Brooks, 86, will be held at 10 a.m. Saturday, Nov. 12, in the Fort Stockton Funeral Home under the direction of Steve Hampton Jr. with Dr. Larry Krueger of Carlsbad, N.M. officiating. do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:59 AM PST US From: "Carl Vought" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage Hi Jack, et al....Bill Beerman is from Raleigh and was building a Piet. Do you know him? I'm wondering how he's progressing.....Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 8:21 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage Jim, Good questions. I have flown both my long fuselage Piet and Mike Cuy's short version (both in wood - have not flown a steel Piet). What I can tell you is there is virtually no difference in feel or sensitivity of the controls between the long and short versions. Both have more than adequate control response. Nor does it seem to affect ground handling much. I can also tell you that adding 10" to the tail makes the whole plane heavier, and adds to an already tail-heavy situation. If you have adequate legroom in the shorter fuselage, I would recommend building that. Of course, if you have long legs (as I do), a short light airplane is not going to make you very happy if you cannot be comfortable sitting in it. I can tell you from personal experience, if you EVER take a trip in your Pietenpol, you will be sitting in it for a long, long time and you'd better make it as comfortable as possible. If possible, try to sit in both versions and try them on for size. If at all possible, sit in them long enough to get a feel for what a long trip will feel like (I found on my trip to Brodhead this year that any leg over an hour and a half got to be pretty uncomfortable). Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lathrop Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 9:03 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage All, I have been lurking on this group for about a year now and have started building my Piet. I have the wing ribs completed, and while I'm waiting for a shipment of spruce for the tail feathers, I got to thinking about the fuselage. I would like to go with the steel tube version because I like working with metal more than wood and my next project after the Piet is a Bearhawk which has a steel tube fuselage. I know that building the steel tube will be slower due to the need to design the fittings which which aren't spelled out in the plans for the steel tube version, but I am willing to accept that. When talking to owners/pilots at Brodhead this year everyone said to go with the long fuselage, it gives you more room. I have made the following observations about the two fuselage designs from the 1934 Improved Air Camper plans. Looking at the plans for both fuselages I see that from the cross brace defining the back of the rear seat to the cross brace defining the back of the front seat is 33" on the steel tube vs. 31" on the long wood. Similarly the front pit is 29" for the steel vs. 28.75 for the long wood. Overall from firewall to the back seat cross brace on the steel tube is 74.5" and 76.25" for the long wood. From all of this, I gather that space wise, I am sacrificing 1.75" of leg room for the passenger and gaining a couple of inches for the pilot with the steel tube version. The real difference between the two is from the rear seat to the tail post. The long wood version is 9 5/8" longer than the steel tube version. I do not have my pilots license yet, and this is where my question comes in. Would not moving the tail feathers back nearly 10" inches make them much more responsive than on the short version, or is this really not a noticeable change? It seems to me that with a plane as light as the Pietenpol, that extra leverage would be significant. Has anyone flown both the long and short version (wood or steel) and have any input on the differences? Thanks, Jim Lathrop Columbus, OH ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:49 AM PST US From: Jim Lathrop Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage SmFjaywKCkknbSBvbmx5IDUnMTAiIHdpdGggYSAzMCIgaW5zZWFtLiBJIHJvZGUgaW4gdGhlIGZy b250IHBpdCBvZiBCaWxsIFJld2V5J3MKbG9uZ2lzaCBQaWV0IGF0IEJyb2RoZWFkIGFuZCBoYWQg cGxlbnR5IG9mIHJvb20uIEknbSBub3Qgc3VyZSB3aGVyZSBoZSBwdXQKdGhlIGV4dHJhIGxlbmd0 aCB0aG91Z2guIEknbGwgYnVpbGQgYSBtb2NrIHVwIGluIG15IHNwYXJlIHRpbWUgYW5kIHNlZSB3 aGF0CmZpdHMgYmVzdC4gVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgaW5wdXQgb24gdGhlIGhhbmRsaW5nLCB0aGF0 IGlzIG15IHJlYWwgY29uY2Vybi4KClRoYW5rcywKSmltCgoKT24gMTEvMTAvMDUsIFBoaWxsaXBz LCBKYWNrIDxKYWNrLlBoaWxsaXBzQGNhcmRpbmFsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cj4KPiAgSmltLAo+Cj4g IEdvb2QgcXVlc3Rpb25zLiBJIGhhdmUgZmxvd24gYm90aCBteSBsb25nIGZ1c2VsYWdlIFBpZXQg YW5kIE1pa2UgQ3V5J3MKPiBzaG9ydCB2ZXJzaW9uIChib3RoIGluIHdvb2QgliBoYXZlIG5vdCBm bG93biBhIHN0ZWVsIFBpZXQpLiBXaGF0IEkgY2FuIHRlbGwKPiB5b3UgaXMgdGhlcmUgaXMgdmly 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But I've never met him. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Vought Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel tube fulelage vs Long wood fuselage Hi Jack, et al....Bill Beerman is from Raleigh and was building a Piet. Do you know him? I'm wondering how he's progressing.....Carl Vought