Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:12 AM - Comments... (Matt Dralle)
2. 03:06 AM - Dissembly and strut asi. (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
3. 05:04 AM - Re: temporary instruments (Johnwoods)
4. 07:17 AM - Tim's dilemma (Oscar Zuniga)
5. 07:19 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 11/13/05 (Tim Willis)
6. 07:19 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 11/13/05 (Tim Willis)
7. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 11/13/05 (Isablcorky@aol.com)
8. 09:14 AM - raising the seat (Michael D Cuy)
9. 01:11 PM - Corvair Powered Piet for sale (Sterling)
10. 03:46 PM - Re: raising the seat (Jeff Boatright)
11. 03:56 PM - Re: raising the seat NOT (Rcaprd@aol.com)
12. 05:10 PM - Re: Disassembly and Re-Assembly (Jeff Boatright)
13. 06:26 PM - Re: raising the seat (Graham Hansen)
14. 08:14 PM - Re: raising the seat, extending the vertical stab, and Corvair College #9 (Mike Whaley)
15. 08:44 PM - Re: Corvair Powered Piet for sale (tmbrant1@netzero.com)
Message 1
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
I'd like say thank you to everyone that has already made a Contribution during
this year's List Fund Raiser! If you haven't made your List Contribution yet,
please show your support for these valuable services. Since there's no advertising
or other forms of direct commercialism on these forums, its solely YOUR
GENEROSITY that keeps them running!!
Members have continued to include some very nice comments along with their Contributions
this year. Please take a minute to read over some of the thoughts your
fellow Listers have expressed regarding the Lists and what they mean to them.
What do the Lists mean to you...?
Please make a Contribution to support the Lists here:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin
==================== What Listers Are Saying - Vol II ====================
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Well worth it
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...connecting all these nice people from all over the
world, who share the same passion: Building and flying
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Did get a lot of info and tips by just reading the messages...
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Paul M.
These list are extremely helpful.
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List with archives are of unmeasurable value to builders
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Glue. That's what this list is, Glue.
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==================== What Listers Are Saying - Vol II ====================
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 2
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ETAtAhROM/QOI6rTn+KHezPI3AgrgjI9SwIVAMuZoXJZi0UuBxRxsPNazGLx8qIs
| Subject: | Dissembly and strut asi. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
For what it's worth, Jimmy Franklin dissembled, and tailored his jet
Waco to his appearances, then put it back together for the air show.
Then tailored it to the next show. I'll bet he could do it blindfolded.
Strut asi.-- The ultra light guys have a nifty strut mount asi that
looks like a rain gauge. It uses ram air to raise a disk to calibrating
marked on the "rain gauge " body. It goes to 80 mph. I,m thinking of
going to that in order to eliminate making and mounting a pitot tube and
running tubing to the gauge. Leon S. Already sick of winter, even though
it's been in the 70's.so far.
Message 3
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| Subject: | temporary instruments |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Johnwoods" <johnwoods@westnet.com.au>
Jeff,
Have a look at this site. It may be of interest to you.
http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/stratomaster.html
Regards,
JohnW
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Subject: Pietenpol-List: temporary instruments
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
I am interested in temporarily installing a few instruments in the
front cockpit for instructional purposes. I figure airspeed,
altitude, and tach at a minimum. I'd very much like to keep it cheap
and very small.
I'd prefer not to use an ASI on the strut, but rather, keep all the
instruments clustered right in front of the pilot.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Jeff
Message 4
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Tim;
I see a number of "challenges" to making the changes you have in mind.
Immediately what comes to mind with raising the seat 5"... take a look at
this picture and see where that puts your head and face if you raise the
seat (I'm about 5'-9"): http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/Pb030026.jpg
Then look at this picture relative to the cutouts in the passenger's seat
back for your feet: http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/Pb030016.jpg which is
about the most you can cut away without changing the seat back framing
significantly.
As far as changing the geometry of the "cowling" ahead of the pilot, there
are problems with interference between the instruments and the aileron
control cables, as you can see in this picture:
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/Pb030024.jpg , which is a photo taken
looking up under the instrument panel and the crossed aileron control cables
are the "X" at the bottom of the photo. If you push the instruments back
more than a few inches, you need to carefully consider which instruments
will be where those cables cross, because they can't be readily moved.
It's all doable, but none of it will be too simple to do with an existing
airframe. There is some load-carrying geometry in the floor crossmembers
relative to the landing gear attach points and the cabane attach points that
you need to respect, but a lot of the other stuff is just a matter of
figuring out what else has to be moved to do what you want, then try it.
Given the extensive nature of what you're trying to do, it's almost better
to use your existing airframe as a test-fitting fixture and build something
completely new from there.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 11/13/05 |
Pietenpol-List Digest List <pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com>
Louisiana builder,
Thanks for your quick reply, many details, and your support. It sounds like you
think my changes are "within the envelope of the design."
I like your changes and will incorporporate what I can. I will need to move my
big fat body up to get enough room, for I think my fuze is too much together
already to widen now. And it's plenty wide once I get my arms over the top longeron.
With the spirit of incorporporation, do you have pix of your following changes?
a) Moved the rudder bar to passenger feet and used Bellanca pedals w/ toe brakes
for pilot. Will have to raise passenger seat so my toes won't drag on passenger's
rear end.
(In this regard, I am planning one set of thin go-cart brake pedals for my brakes,
positioned above another set of wider go-cart brake pedals for my rudder pedals.
I will use the space created by my alterations to mount all pedals in a
workable position. Key is getting the passenger bulkhead out of the way and
the passenger seat forward and up.)
(Also, I have not figured out yet how to tie the brake pedal to the steerable tail
wheel controls, as well, like a Cessna nose wheel. Any thoughts there, anyone?)
b) Used a control column from a WWII Fairchild PT 19 or 23. Then a torque tube
to the elevator horn via a walking bell crank.
(I would like to see how this is done. I want to use a tube connected to BP's
stick.)
Thanks again,
Tim
---------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 11/13/05 |
Pietenpol-List Digest List <pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com>
Louisiana builder,
Thanks for your quick reply, many details, and your support. It sounds like you
think my changes are "within the envelope of the design."
I like your changes and will incorporporate what I can. I will need to move my
big fat body up to get enough room, for I think my fuze is too much together
already to widen now. And it's plenty wide once I get my arms over the top longeron.
With the spirit of incorporporation, do you have pix of your following changes?
a) Moved the rudder bar to passenger feet and used Bellanca pedals w/ toe brakes
for pilot. Will have to raise passenger seat so my toes won't drag on passenger's
rear end.
(In this regard, I am planning one set of thin go-cart brake pedals for my brakes,
positioned above another set of wider go-cart brake pedals for my rudder pedals.
I will use the space created by my alterations to mount all pedals in a
workable position. Key is getting the passenger bulkhead out of the way and
the passenger seat forward and up.)
(Also, I have not figured out yet how to tie the brake pedal to the steerable tail
wheel controls, as well, like a Cessna nose wheel. Any thoughts there, anyone?)
b) Used a control column from a WWII Fairchild PT 19 or 23. Then a torque tube
to the elevator horn via a walking bell crank.
(I would like to see how this is done. I want to use a tube connected to BP's
stick.)
Thanks again,
Tim
---------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 11/13/05 |
I'll go out this morning and take a few pics and get them back to you
direct, not on the net. I'm afraid I'm creating too many enemies.
Corky
Message 8
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| Subject: | raising the seat |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Guys-- I have not kept up with the e-mails at all (work is actually getting
the way:) but to raise a Piet
seat 5" is a regrettable thing to do.
I'm still annoyed at myself for raising it TWO inches. My head and upper
body are tooooo much up in the
propwash and though it helps a bit with vis. on takeoff and landing, it is
not worth the penalty at all.
Also by raising the seat you limit your forward-upward visibility. Trust
me on this one.....almost nailed a
banner being towed but thankfully I lifted a wing before turning.
Mike C.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Corvair Powered Piet for sale |
I found a Corvair powered Pietenpol for sale on Barnstormers. This link provides
info on the builder and date the airplane was made.
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N5107Q.html,
DOES ANYBODY KNOW THIS AIRPLANE OR THE BUILDER, HAUGEN SEVERSON?
I looked at the airplane today in Snyder, Texas. It's sitting in a large community
hanger at Winston Field.
This Pietenpol had rib stitching for the bottom fabric on the wings, but no rib
stitching on the top fabric on the wings. My logic would suggest that the low
pressure area on the top needs rib stitching just as much as the concave surface
on the bottom of the wing.
The paint scheme was nice, but there is a lot of cracking in the paint. The owner
(second owner since 1989) said he has owned the Pietenpol for 3 years but he
didn't like the original color and repainted it. It is now painted mostly in
silver (looks like butyrate with silver paste) but the paint looks a tad thick
to me as I looked at the cracks.
I didn't see any evidence of wood rot (but I'm taking an inspection mirror and
a flashlight next trip.
The Corvair engine is an 80 HP. I pulled the prop through, and it didn't feel like
the Continentals and Lycomings I have experience with. I don't know if I am
only used to 4 banger Lycs, but this 6 cylinder engine didn't seem to be hard
to pull through each cylinder like the Lycs and Continentals... I'm wondering
if the compression is weak because it hasn't been flown in a year, or if 6 banger
Corvairs just pull weak through each cylinder?
I'd appreciate opinions or any information someone might have about this airplane,
N5107Q.
I'm thinking about buying a flying Aircamper while I finish my Pietenpol... Been
grounded too long and I need to fly soon.
Thanks,
Sterling Brooks
Knot-2-Shabby Airport
5TA6
Message 10
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114121034.015936e0@popserve.grc.nasa.gov>
| Subject: | Re: raising the seat |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
I agree with Mike. If anything, I would lower the seat (assuming it
doesn't change the engineering). I sit too high in mine, and I'm only
5'6". You can always add another temperfoam pad if the seat is too
low, but you sure can't go the other direction if you raise it!
At 12:13 PM -0500 11/14/05, Michael D Cuy wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
><Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
>Guys-- I have not kept up with the e-mails at all (work is actually
>getting the way:) but to raise a Piet
>seat 5" is a regrettable thing to do.
>
>I'm still annoyed at myself for raising it TWO inches. My head and
>upper body are tooooo much up in the
>propwash and though it helps a bit with vis. on takeoff and landing,
>it is not worth the penalty at all.
>
>Also by raising the seat you limit your forward-upward visibility.
>Trust me on this one.....almost nailed a
>banner being towed but thankfully I lifted a wing before turning.
>
>Mike C.
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri@emory.edu
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: raising the seat NOT |
In a message dated 11/14/2005 5:47:06 PM Central Standard Time,
jboatri@emory.edu writes:
I agree with Mike. If anything, I would lower the seat (assuming it
doesn't change the engineering). I sit too high in mine, and I'm only
5'6". You can always add another temperfoam pad if the seat is too
low, but you sure can't go the other direction if you raise it!
Ditto for me.
I wish my seat was a tad lower, so I could have more padding. Speaking of
padding, I made a seat that conforms to my personal Butt Print, as well as
extending the pad forward a little past the forward edge of the seat to help
support under my legs. I found a HUGE difference in comfort, compared to what
I had
before. I'm going to re-do the seat to extend even further under my legs, in
order to spread out my weight.
Chuck G.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Disassembly and Re-Assembly |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
Unless your friendly local A&P has worked on Piets before, I'd say
you're better off, and safer, relying on your own sense of
self-preservation and knowledge of your own plane.
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
>I've got mixed feelings on this one. Having taken the wings off of
>NX41CC, I came to realize that while it is a fairly quick and easy
>project, it isn't something you can do every weekend and expect the
>airplane to fly the same after each time. There are struts, strut
>braces, control cables, wing attach fittings, gap covers, pitot
>lines, possibly fuel lines (if you have a wing tank in the outboard
>sections), and other things involved.
>
>I don't know that I would consider it something that would require
>sign-off though, any more than tweaking the rigging in the hangar
>yourself, after a flight, to correct a heavy wing or something of
>the sort. However, it makes sense to expect the work to be done by
>someone with knowledge of what they are doing, and if a guy just
>goes and buys himself a Piet without having the skills necessary to
>rig and adjust things, and he thinks he can take the wings off and
>put them back on and get it right, there's an accident waiting to
>happen. At the very least, there is the possibility of getting
>controls reversed, not reconnecting controls, or rigging the wing in
>such a way as to make the plane marginally controllable.
>
>There... I've talked myself into the "get an A&P sign-off" position
>;o) 41CC will be due for an annual when I reattach the wings
>anyway, so mine is a no-brainer.
>
>Oscar Zuniga
>San Antonio, TX
>mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: raising the seat |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
My Pietenpol has the seat made in accordance with the plans for the
"Improved Air Camper". I was about 5' -9" tall when I built it many years
ago, but have shrunk some since then (not in girth, however). The seat
height is about right for me because I am/was about BHP's stature. Taller
friends who flew it said that they got a face full of fresh air and/or bugs.
The fuselage was made 2 inches wider from the firewall to the rear seat
back, allowing space for extra clothing. This is a popular modification with
all who have flown it.
If I were to build another Pietenpol (which I won't), I would seriously
consider extending the seat back to the floor, eliminating the seat bottom,
and shimming my butt with cushions to get a comfortable height. Changing
the elevator control would be necessary to place a push-pull tube below the
floor from the rear stick to a bellcrank. The belly would be faired with
formers, stringers and fabric to cover this setup.
There is a Pietenpol in this area with a modified elevator control much like
the system described above. It has been flying since 1968 and I have flown
it a number of times. The main difference from the above setup is that the
seat back bulkhead has been omitted (which I don't like) and a lightweight
WW II surplus aluminum aircraft bucket seat is used (which I do like).
In our Canadian climate, open cockpit airplanes need to offer as much
protection from the elements as possible. Even in warmer climates, raising
the seat is not the way to go because the upper air can get pretty cool and
one's head is too exposed.
As I write this, tomorrow's daytime high temperature here is supposed to be
about -7 C (approx. 20 F) and I was planning to fly my Pietenpol to mark the
35th anniversary of its first flight on November 15, 1970. I'm glad I don't
sit any higher in it--but, as things stand, I may postpone that flight for a
few days. I'm not as tough as I used to be!
Over the years, I have observed that some of the biggest people seem to be
attracted to the Pietenpol, which is a relatively small airplane "designed
at a time when midgets ruled the earth", as a friend once said. I would
suggest that these folks seriously consider building a single place version
of this venerable design which should provide sufficient room for them
without extreme modification.
Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: raising the seat, extending the vertical stab, and |
Corvair College #9
I saw Pat Green's 1977 Piet this weekend at Corvair College. It has a few
mods to it, including a 34 foot wing and an extended vertical stabilizer.
Pat told me the reason for the higher vertical tail was after a couple of
incidents where he held the tail up as it slowed on the landing roll. There
was no wind, yet it suddenly shot off to the right of the runway and into
the weeds. No damage was done, but he tried it again and this time it did
the same thing, except that it went off to the left. after a while they
realized that the problem was that the elevator was capable of holding the
tail (and the tailwheel) up down to a lower speed than the point where the
rudder lost effectiveness. Another time, a pilot took it up for spin
testing. He started at 4000 feet, got a good spin going (was hard to get
into the spin) and then couldn't get out of it until he got down to 800
feet, he got it out by modulating the power. Pat went up and had little
trouble with spins. The first pilot was a really tall guy, while Pat was a
bit shorter. He believed that the spin problem was due in large part with a
tall pilot blanking out the vertical stabilizer, which would also be a
factor in the landing experience (though the quick solution to the landing
thing was simply to not hold the tail up too long.) He installed a taller
stabilizer of the same basic shape, I think he said it was 10 inches taller.
and now he says that it's very authoritative. I didn't see his arrival to
William Wynne's place but there was about a 20-knot direct crosswind over
some trees, and he said that it was no problem at all.
So it sounds like raising the seat might even affect control by blanking out
the rudder in some situations.
After looking at Pat's plane, I think I really like the idea of making a
taller rudder. It was the kind of thing where sub-consciously, you saw the
plane and felt like something was different, but it didn't really stand out
until he said something. I think it might even look nice to re-shape the
upper part of the stab and get a little more of a classic rounded look (I
can hear the gasps of the purists from here... hehehe) If you were to raise
the stab and make the top into a nice curve, starting roughly at the rib
where the brace wires attach, would there be any reason to think you'd
create any bad flight characteristics in doing so? I'll be building a
widened, long-fuse Piet, I'm 6' 1" with long legs so I might end up blanking
the rudder no matter where the seat is!
This is the second Piet that I've seen with added wing length. Pat said that
he visited BHP, and was told that it didn't need a longer wing. Pat felt
that he did need it, so he could clear the 50 foot pine trees we have here
instead of the 6-foot Minnesota corn stalks.) Apparently it adds some
stability and makes the aileron response a bit slower. The plane has a
hand-start BHP Corvair conversion with a blower on top, hadn't seen one of
those before and it looks a bit different than the Wynne conversions. I
don't know if Pat and his starter/partner in crime Jack are on the list
here, if they are they could correct anything I remembered wrong. Super nice
guys.
Corvair College was great, as usual. Lots of fun, saw neat planes and met
even neater people. I'm sure they'll have a report posted soon. There was 1
Pietenpol, 1 Cleanex (basically a Corvair Sonex), 1 flying CH-601XL and one
being built, one KR-2S, one KR-2, a Mustang I, a Wagabond, and a turbo
Corvair Stits Sky Coupe. Also several Corvair cars and a van were there.
Cool stuff.
-Mike
Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net
Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association
http://www.ov-10bronco.net/
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Powered Piet for sale |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" <tmbrant1@netzero.net>
I would think it would be a bit easier to pull the prop thru on the corvair vs.
lyc. or continental just due to the piston size and stroke difference. If it's
an 80 HP I would guess that it's a Bernie conversion with the blower fan?
Maybe an early engine (1960-63). Find out what you can about the engine construction
- forged pistons or cast is probably the biggest concern. If you can,
pull one of the plugs and take a looksee inside.
Don't know anything about that specific airplane.
Tom B.
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