---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/30/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:02 AM - straight spokes vs. criss-crossed spokes (Michael D Cuy) 2. 06:27 AM - Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet (Sterling) 3. 06:46 AM - Re: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet (Jack T. Textor) 4. 07:08 AM - Re: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet (Michael D Cuy) 5. 08:06 AM - Re: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet (Sterling) 6. 08:08 AM - Re: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet (Jeff Boatright) 7. 08:08 AM - Re: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet (Sterling) 8. 01:18 PM - [ John Rocca ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 9. 04:33 PM - Re: A65 oil sump (Phillips, Jack) 10. 04:42 PM - Re: C75 timing marks (Phillips, Jack) 11. 04:56 PM - Re: C75 timing marks (Jeff Boatright) 12. 05:15 PM - Re: C75 timing marks (Sterling) 13. 07:08 PM - Re: straight spokes vs. criss-crossed spokes (Michael Conkling) 14. 08:31 PM - Re: straight spokes vs. criss-crossed spokes (bike.mike) 15. 10:33 PM - Re: straight spokes vs. criss-crossed spokes (Glenn Thomas) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:34 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: straight spokes vs. criss-crossed spokes --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Tom-- I guess unless the spokes are crossed on a wire wheel assy., you can't use them for braking applications since they might 'fold' like dominoes if subjected to enough braking force. I don't know if this is an old wives tale or truth.....but many are those wiser than I. Happy New Year group ! Mike C. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:34 AM PST US From: "Sterling" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet I know there has been discussion on this before, but does anybody actually know of anyone who has actually broken a motorcycle wheel on an Aircamper? I think the problem/concern is side-loading. If this HAS happened to someone, was the airplane damaged or did the wheel simply snap some spokes? I have Honda CB 350 wheels on my aircamper, had them powder coated and they look really great. In fact I think the look better than chrome. And the brakes were fairly easy to hook up with a design that I've made unique to my project. Thanks, Sterling 5TA6 San Antonio Sectional ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet From: "Jack T. Textor" Sterling, Do you have a web site or any info on your camper? Happy New Year to my Piet friends! Jack Textor www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:13 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Sterling-- I have known of many Air Campers that use stock motorcycle wheels and have NEVER heard of a failure. In fact, the only failure of a wire wheel I heard of was Craig Aho in Washington State where he had in fact WIDE homemade hubs but the failure mechanism was traced to not having his spokes tightened enough. There are lots of wives tales about using stock mocycle wheels.....I don't know if I would necessarily jump on that band wagon. Perhaps others can post documented evidence one way or the other...... Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:18 AM PST US From: "Sterling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sterling" One thing I noticed after I had my Honda wheels powder coated, the juncture at where the spokes cross and touch each other is now tighter than ever. Power coating is darned tough stuff, and I'm wondering if by coating my entire wheels, if some additional (marginal at best) strength might be gained? I guess I'll find out when I get this puppy in the air. The wheels were not "de-spoked" when I did the powder coating. The drum area is obviously not coated, but everything else is. I had two small parts that were part of the exterior brake actuating mechinism that stuck together and I had great difficulty pulling them apart. I had to fabricate a small-thin chisel to wedge between the parts in order to break the powder coating. A place in Midland, Texas did the poweder coating for me (much better than the local guys in Abilene) for $45 each wheel. They sand blasted the wheels and the final product looks really nice. I had mine done in red as in the same color of the Texas flag paint design that DJ Vegh sketched out for me, and I hope this will look nice with the entire airplane. I liked the way the wheels turned out so much that I might take the gear legs and cabanes to the powder coating shop to, but I'm probably going to be cutting the gear apart and going with the spring gear legs that Chuck showed me on his Piet last time I was in Kansas. I'll probably powder coat the gear legs much later down the road (I mean runway.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > > Sterling-- I have known of many Air Campers that use stock motorcycle > wheels and have NEVER heard of a failure. > In fact, the only failure of a wire wheel I heard of was Craig Aho in > Washington State where he had in fact WIDE homemade hubs > but the failure mechanism was traced to not having his spokes tightened > enough. > > There are lots of wives tales about using stock mocycle wheels.....I don't > know if I would necessarily jump on that band wagon. > > Perhaps others can post documented evidence one way or the other...... > > Mike C. in Ohio > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:15 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet Sterling, I had this same concern when I was pondering the purchase of our Piet. As Mike wrote, there may not be a single documented occurrence of a motorcycle wheel folding on a Piet. When I queried the list, a couple of people said they knew of one occurrence, but couldn't provide details about the failure mode, though side-loading was suspected. Also, it wasn't clear what shape the wheels were in to begin with. I know from acquaintances that failures have happened on WWI replicas, but those planes are much heavier than Piets and possibly land faster to boot. Our Piet has motorcycle wheels. It was built in the late 70s. It has about 500 hours on it, all local flights probably with lots of landings (at least the same number as take-offs!). So far so good. Jeff >I know there has been discussion on this before, but does anybody >actually know of anyone who has actually broken a motorcycle wheel >on an Aircamper? I think the problem/concern is side-loading. > >If this HAS happened to someone, was the airplane damaged or did the >wheel simply snap some spokes? > >I have Honda CB 350 wheels on my aircamper, had them powder coated >and they look really great. In fact I think the look better than >chrome. And the brakes were fairly easy to hook up with a design >that I've made unique to my project. > >Thanks, > >Sterling >5TA6 >San Antonio Sectional ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:48 AM PST US From: "Sterling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sterling" Not yet... my hanger is such a mess that my wife would shoot me if I posted something on the internet that showed what a pig I am... Maybe this Spring I'll clean the place up and take some pictures and invite some TACOS over. (Spring of 2007, ?) I'm in the process of building a second hanger for a second airplane I'm about to buy... The mess (and the projects) get bigger and messier all the time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack T. Textor" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Honda Motorcycle Wheels on a Piet Sterling, Do you have a web site or any info on your camper? Happy New Year to my Piet friends! Jack Textor www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:40 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: [ John Rocca ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: John Rocca Lists: Pietenpol-List Subject: New Owner of NX899TC http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/rocca@adelphia.net.12.30.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:33 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A65 oil sump From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Hi Oscar, I've got one that I bought on ebay fro $50 and I'll sell it for what I paid for it. I was hoping to get one with fewer dents than the one I had, but this one is about the same. I can take some pics of it and send them if you'd like Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: A65 oil sump --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Anybody have a 4-qt. oil sump for an A65 that they want to sell? I'm in the market. There is one on eBay at the moment and I may bid on that one if I can't find another. The gentleman raised the starting bid on this one from $99 to $149 since yesterday, but he's had no bids on it yet. Thanks! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:02 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: C75 timing marks From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" That's the way my A65 is setup as well. Works fine, but is a little difficult to see the timing marks when setting the mags. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Subject: Pietenpol-List: C75 timing marks --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright We're installing a zero-time, freshly rebuilt C75 on our Piet. It has a tapered shaft. I am concerned that when the #1 cylinder is TDC, the timing marks end up on the bottom of the prop hub. Recall that the hub is keyed to the crank on these engines, so it fits in one position only. I wonder if somebody installed the cam out of sync. Is this correct or is there a problem with the assembly of the engine? Thanks for any advice, Jeff ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:52 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: C75 timing marks --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright Thanks Jack. What gave me pause was that our A65 was NOT set up that way. From Oscar's description, it sounds like it doesn't matter. >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" > > >That's the way my A65 is setup as well. Works fine, but is a little >difficult to see the timing marks when setting the mags. > >Jack Phillips, PE >Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development >Clinical Technologies and Services >Cardinal Health >Creedmoor, NC >(919) 528-5212 > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff >Boatright >Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 8:27 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: C75 timing marks > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > >We're installing a zero-time, freshly rebuilt C75 on our Piet. It has >a tapered shaft. I am concerned that when the #1 cylinder is TDC, the >timing marks end up on the bottom of the prop hub. Recall that the >hub is keyed to the crank on these engines, so it fits in one >position only. I wonder if somebody installed the cam out of sync. >Is this correct or is there a problem with the assembly of the engine? > >Thanks for any advice, > >Jeff > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:04 PM PST US From: "Sterling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C75 timing marks --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sterling" Timing marks are the same on my A-80 and after having just assembled the case two months ago, I don't see how it is possible to put the cam in out of sequence. I bought a new cam for nearly $500 (ouch) and the timing marks on the cam in relation to how it mates with the crankshaft was very clear to me, and I'm just the Village Idiot in these parts... (But I had my A&P father watching over my shoulder the whole time...;) Sterling Brooks Village Idiot, Runnels County Texas (Maybe that qualifies me for the County Idiot? Need to change my business cards to reflect my larger area of idiocy!) Knot-2-Shabby Airport & Texas Longhorn Cattle Ranch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillips, Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: C75 timing marks > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" > > > That's the way my A65 is setup as well. Works fine, but is a little > difficult to see the timing marks when setting the mags. > > Jack Phillips, PE > Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development > Clinical Technologies and Services > Cardinal Health > Creedmoor, NC > (919) 528-5212 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff > Boatright > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 8:27 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: C75 timing marks > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > We're installing a zero-time, freshly rebuilt C75 on our Piet. It has > a tapered shaft. I am concerned that when the #1 cylinder is TDC, the > timing marks end up on the bottom of the prop hub. Recall that the > hub is keyed to the crank on these engines, so it fits in one > position only. I wonder if somebody installed the cam out of sync. > Is this correct or is there a problem with the assembly of the engine? > > Thanks for any advice, > > Jeff > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:11 PM PST US From: "Michael Conkling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: straight spokes vs. criss-crossed spokes --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Michael Conkling" With the spokes crossing, 1/2 of them will be in tension when the hub brake is stopping the wheel -- same thing that happens with the rear wheel on a bicycle when you pedal. You can have the spokes crossed on both sides of the hub or you can have crossed spokes only on the brake side and radial (straight?!) spokes other (out)side. Some of the older wire wheels were "dished" (the rim isn't centered on the hub flanges) with the rim closer to the brake side of the hub -- this gave the outside spokes a better angle for handling the crosswind loads on the wheel. The Model A wire wheels have a similar spoke pattern. Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Subject: Pietenpol-List: straight spokes vs. criss-crossed spokes > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > Tom-- I guess unless the spokes are crossed on a wire wheel assy., you > can't use them > for braking applications since they might 'fold' like dominoes if subjected > to enough braking force. > I don't know if this is an old wives tale or truth.....but many are those > wiser than I. > > Happy New Year group ! > > Mike C. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:49 PM PST US From: "bike.mike" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: straight spokes vs. criss-crossed spokes --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bike.mike" > > With the spokes crossing, 1/2 of them will be in tension when the hub brake > is stopping the wheel -- same thing that happens with the rear wheel on a > bicycle when you pedal. > Not entirely true. On a properly built spoked wheel, all the spokes are in tension (fairly high) even with no braking or accelerating torque applied. When a braking torque is applied at the hub, half of the spokes are under increased tension and the other half are under reduced tension. They both contribute to tranfering the torque to the rim which is what you want stopped. What you don't ever want to have happen is for any spokes to completely relax...wheel collapse or severe misalignment is an almost inevitible result. Mike Hardaway ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:00 PM PST US From: "Glenn Thomas" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: straight spokes vs. criss-crossed spokes --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" > Not entirely true. On a properly built spoked wheel, all the spokes are in > tension (fairly high) even with no braking or accelerating torque applied. This is a good point. There's a good book called "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt that covers bicycle wheel physics and should apply to any spoked wheel. I've never ridden a radial spoke pattern because radial spoking results in the weakest wheel of all the spoke lacing patterns. The closer the spoke is to meeting the spoke hole in the hub at 90 degrees the stronger the wheel. ..and radial spoking has more degrees of "wind-up" as torque is distributed to the rim from the hub via the spokes. To envision the inefficiency of radial spokes think of it this way. If you had to turn a Merry-Go-Round with people and rope, would you be able to do a better job with the rope extending directly away from the Merry-Go-Round and people 20 feet away at the end of the rope, or would you want to pick a tangent point on the Merry-Go-Round and pull perpendicular to the diameter of the circumference at the tangent point? That's why the spokes in a wheel cross. If you follow a spoke from the hole in the hub out to the nipple in the rim and count the number of spokes is crosses along the way that will tell you if it's cross 4 or cross 3 or radial if it doesn't cross any spokes. They say heavy riders and bikes loaded with panniers for touring should always use cross 4. ...so the more crossings, the closer the spoke is to being tangent to the hub and the stronger the wheel is for landings, braking, etc. The book also mentions in a section focusing on radial spoking that this pattern causes a lot of stress at the spokes holes in the hub causing flange failure (again this would be due to the windup). Only cyclists I ever knew that swore upon riding radial spoked wheels couldn't give me a better reason for using them than "They look cool". My experience with spoked wheels (which I have made dozens of) relates only to bicycles. But I believe a spoked wheel is a spoked wheel. Glenn