Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Sat 01/07/06


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:19 AM - Re: seat belts/harness. (Sterling)
     2. 06:34 AM - Re: help with instrument routing (Harvey Rule)
     3. 08:17 AM - Sitka spruce pricing? (Michael Turrell)
     4. 08:58 AM - Re: Sitka spruce pricing? (Isablcorky@aol.com)
     5. 09:14 AM - Thanks for Prop Response (Isablcorky@aol.com)
     6. 09:21 AM - Re: seat belts/harness. (Mark Blackwell)
     7. 11:31 AM - Re:Sitka spruce availability (Michael Turrell)
     8. 11:32 AM - Flying NX770CG ()
     9. 03:45 PM - Re: Re:Sitka spruce availability (Jack T. Textor)
    10. 04:05 PM - Steve (IE B-17 video) (walt evans)
    11. 06:11 PM - Re: Re:Sitka spruce availability (Dick Navratil)
    12. 07:11 PM - Re: Flying NX770CG (dmott9@aol.com)
    13. 07:16 PM - Re: SHOULDER HARNESS (Kip and Beth Gardner)
    14. 10:48 PM - Re: seat belts/harness. Safety (maybe out of theme, Delete?) (Gary Gower)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:19:45 AM PST US
    From: "Sterling" <sterling@pgrb.com>
    Subject: Re: seat belts/harness.
    Gary: Had this guy had a better way to strap himself in, he would have not required surgery to his face. He failed to control his airplane in a shallow turn and he screwed up, but still a small harness would have prevented his face from impacting the panel. Needless to say, he managed to walk away from the wreck, but he is disfigured for life. Better planning and flying skills would have prevented this, and a small harness would kept his face from slamming into the panel. My Cessna and my Piper Cherokee all had some absorbant material on the panel, but the Pietenpol this chap was flying was typical to plans and the panel was unforgiving to a facial impact. My dad first gave me flying lessons when I was 14 years old in a Twin Bonanza back in 1965, and he always strapped me in good. Yes, I learned to not panic and fly the airplane regardless of conditions, and yes I have had forced landings without incidence, but the extra margin of safety afforded by a simple harness in a Pietenpol is on my list. No, I won't have a ballistic parachute (too heavy and expensive) but I might dangle a rabbits foot on the panel of my aircamper for good luck. Sterling 5TA6 ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 12:18 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: seat belts/harness. Hi Sterling, Lets face it.... Airplanes are NOT designed to crash,,, The important thing is to become proficient while flying and learn how your plane reacts in any emergency.. I say this because the human body only resists a limited amount of sudden impact G's harness or not you might not survive a severe impact, but at list safety harnessed to your seat :-). Planes out of control are capable to add lots of speed VERY FAST before impact, they are FALLING down... So the more important thing is to fly it down as under control as much as our experience will allow us. Newbies pilots think that BRS and Safety Harness will save their life, Bahhh only learning and practicing emergency procedures will. Fly it always untill is taxing to the platform ;-) Saludos Gary Gower. Sterling <sterling@pgrb.com> wrote: DO NOT ARCHIVE Douwe... I don't think anyone on this list will argue with you and most of us will say safety is no hang-up... I saw a Pietenpol last year that had been in a stall accident about 100 feet off the ground whilst the pilot was trying to return to the grass strip h e had just taken off from, when learning a presidential TFR was in effect at Crawford (not too far from Waco.) The pilot's face impacted the panel and although I didn't see the chap's face, I hate to think what it looked like after the impact. The aftermath was alarming. The panel was smashed up pretty good from the fellow's face and this pilot only had a seat belt in his Piet. My Piet only has a seat belt setup (I bought it as a project) and I plan on going back into the fuselage to attach cables to the tail (much in the same way you have described) in order to fabricate a shoulder harness. An A&P/IA suggested this same method to me for attaching the shoulder harness. I am confident my wife would leave me if my face got any uglier, thus the reason for wanting the shoulder harness in my A ir Camper. DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: seat belts/harness Ken, I guess we all have our little "hang-ups" and safety harness is one of mine. I've probably overengineered mine, but with that panel so close to my face, it gives me more peace of mind. I've fashioned a glass seat bottom with a scoop for my rump which is not only much more comfortable, it also drops me down almost two inches into the cockpit. Now, if I run the harness out the top of the turtle deck, the angle is right and would minimize any spine compression, which is a possibility if the harness originates much lower than one's shoulders. I welded up a very light tubular pylon that mounts just inside the turtle deck, to which my harness bolts. Then a cable runs from that bolt, back to the tailskid mounting area. If I remember correctly, the pilot's seat belt bolts through both the vertical member with some ash blocking. The passenger seat belt bolts through the bottom crossmember and through the metal strap that runs between gear fittings on the bottom of the fuse. I am planning on snapping my passenger's harness to the rear X bracing (rods in my case), as this should spread any load between many fittings, but we'll see if my inspector lets it go. That's a really hard spot to find a good anchor. I do have some shots and drawings somewhere from England of a pretty nice Piet installation. you'd have to plan very early since it really must be fitte d while the fuse is in the works. if you want, email me and I'll TRY to find them. Douwe douweblumberg@earthlink.net Photo Books. You design it and we'll bind it!


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:34:00 AM PST US
    From: Harvey Rule <harvey.rule@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Re: help with instrument routing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Harvey Rule <harvey.rule@sympatico.ca> What I ment was ,I will use domes and eye rings. >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca> > >Good idea about those eye rings on the corners;thanks.I will use domes. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans >Vander Voort >Sent: January 6, 2006 2:05 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: help with instrument routing > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort ><hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> > >I use snap buttons (domes?) in between and eye rings in corners which >are >secured with a safety pin through a dowel pin > >Snap buttons or velcro alone might not be enough, if your front cover >comes >of it might obstruct your vision (right when you need it most - Murphy's >law) > >Cover is made of Vinyl (imitation leather) > > >Hans > > > > > <harvey.rule@bell > > .ca> > > Sent by: >To > owner-pietenpol-l <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > > ist-server@matron >cc > ics.com > > >Subject > RE: Pietenpol-List: help with > > 01/06/2006 11:57 instrument routing > > AM > > > > > > Please respond to > > pietenpol-list@ma > > tronics.com > > > > > > >Would velcro and leather work for a cover or would domes be better? > > >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick >Holland >Sent: January 6, 2006 12:15 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: help with instrument routing > >The only negative I can think of for that solution would be for us cold >weather fliers where we may want to cover the front cockpit. >On 1/5/06, HVandervoo@aol.com <HVandervoo@aol.com> wrote: >Douwe, > >I have the engine instrumentation in the front cockpit except for the >Tachometer. >It keep the connecting wiring & tubing short. >Plus it saves space on the rear panel. > >Most of the time you will fly alone and the front cockpit panel is >easily >visible. > >Hans > > >-- >Rick Holland > >"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > > > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:17:56 AM PST US
    From: "Michael Turrell" <emtyit@3web.net>
    Subject: Sitka spruce pricing?
    Question gentleman.What would one expect to pay for sitka spruce per board foot in the rough kiln dried.I am a cabinet maker so I have all the equipment needed to dimention the rough lumber into the finished sizes as called for in the plans.There is a sawmill in Ontario Canada that has 2" X 6" X up to 16' long boards that were kiln dried for $12.50 per board foot Canadian,which is about $10.40 US. dollars .I would be able to pick this up so shipping costs are not an issue. Thanks in advance for your help. Regards Mike Turrell


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:58:37 AM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Sitka spruce pricing?
    Check with Edensaw in Washington. I paid $8.50 for 2x6 16ft vertical grain, kiln dried. Bought 6. Bundled and shipped to Louisiana about $140. Beautiful lumber. Sitka Spruce. I also bought for 41CC Douglas Fit from same company at $4.50. If I built another, which I won't, I think I'd go back to DF if I could get the same quality as before. Hopes this helps. Corky in Louisiana


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:14:35 AM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Thanks for Prop Response
    Pieters, Mr. Dick Nelson, a prosperous oil producer, old car enthusiaste, pilot and real fine guy asked me to help him find a prop for his Pietenpol. It is not completed. Has to cover the wing etc. He is building a large arena type building for his old car museum. He now owns 4 or 5 hundred at last count and wants to hang his Piet from the ceiling because it has a Model B engine installed to let visitors know that Ford engines powered more than automobiles. One offer was accepted so thanks all of you for your help. Corky Do not archive


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:21:34 AM PST US
    From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: seat belts/harness.
    Actually the human body can withstand a great deal for very short durations. Race car impact have been documented to over 100 G's without injury to a driver, with the driver properly restrained. Now airplanes have the downward load factor to contend with which is a huge difference, but it is amazing just how tough the body is at times and how fragile it can be at other. Airplanes actually are designed with quite a bit of consideration for accidents and accident prevention. Strength, where you run wires and fuel lines what you cover your airplane with, how you cover your seat, and a host of any of a number of decisions you make during building will effect just how well an airplane holds up in an accident. From the looks of it for the technology of his day, the Piet did quite well. That does not mean that if there is an improvement out there we shouldn't take advantage of it. I hope we see more chutes out there but that is not the end all be all. The one statement you made I couldn't agree with more is to fly the airplane all the way to the ground if its still flyable and you are still in it. A controlled aircraft gives the occupants a great chance of survival, but an out of control one makes the chances very slim. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:18 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: seat belts/harness. Hi Sterling, Lets face it.... Airplanes are NOT designed to crash,,, The important thing is to become proficient while flying and learn how your plane reacts in any emergency.. I say this because the human body only resists a limited amount of sudden impact G's harness or not you might not survive a severe impact, but at list safety harnessed to your seat :-). Planes out of control are capable to add lots of speed VERY FAST before impact, they are FALLING down... So the more important thing is to fly it down as under control as much as our experience will allow us. Newbies pilots think that BRS and Safety Harness will save their life, Bahhh only learning and practicing emergency procedures will. Fly it always untill is taxing to the platform ;-) Saludos Gary Gower.


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:31:52 AM PST US
    From: "Michael Turrell" <emtyit@3web.net>
    Subject: Re:Sitka spruce availability
    Thanks Corky,I called them and was told they don't carry aircraft grade Sitka any longer and any sitka ordered would be at my own risk as to quality.I was told that if they did special order aircraft grade ,it would be considerably more than the current $8.78/bd.ft. for the regular stuff so I will keep looking for the best deal I can find,There is a place in Western Canada that I have to look up also.The hunt is half the fun,or so I've been told ;-) Regards,Mike


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:32:14 AM PST US
    From: <glennthomas@charter.net>
    Subject: Flying NX770CG
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <glennthomas@charter.net> Hi, Last night I got my video from Chuck and I'm really glad I have it. For a new builder who hasn't even actually seen the plane I'm building other than static photos this was incredibly inspiring. This will get lots of play time in my house if my project should happen to stall. A real kick in the pants to go out to the shop and "Gitt'r Done" so I can fly my own. Thanks for all the hard work Chuck! You obviously put your heart into this. Glenn


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:45:18 PM PST US
    Subject: Re:Sitka spruce availability
    From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor@thepalmergroup.com>
    Mike I purchased some rough cut 1" spruce at McCormick Lumber in Madison last year. It Planed to 3/4". I think it was $4.50 a board foot. It had to pick through a lot to get decent stuff. It was dirty and played hell with my planer blades, Their 1 1/2 stock was pretty poor. Their web is http://www.mccormicklumber.com/index.htm. When talking with Andy, I don't believe he will ever order any more stock. Jack Textor Vice President Palmer Group 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Michael Turrell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re:Sitka spruce availability Thanks Corky,I called them and was told they don't carry aircraft grade Sitka any longer and any sitka ordered would be at my own risk as to quality.I was told that if they did special order aircraft grade ,it would be considerably more than the current $8.78/bd.ft. for the regular stuff so I will keep looking for the best deal I can find,There is a place in Western Canada that I have to look up also.The hunt is half the fun,or so I've been told ;-) Regards,Mike


    Message 10


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    Time: 04:05:46 PM PST US
    From: "walt evans" <waltdak@verizon.net>
    Subject: Steve (IE B-17 video)
    Steve, Few days ago while visiting my Mom in the nursing home, met a mother and "son" who was visiting a resident. It turns out that this "son" who I thought was in his 60's, was her husband in his 80's. Great guy. Said that in 1941 he was a crew member on a B-17. Thought of your video, and today made a CD of it and delivered it to him at the home visiting his wife. He was as happy as a clam. Said he'd watch it on his son-in-laws computer. Promised I'd take him flying in the Piet in the spring. Thanks for your efforts. You did good! Ain't Life Grand! walt evans NX140DL


    Message 11


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    Time: 06:11:28 PM PST US
    From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
    Subject: Re:Sitka spruce availability
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net> I've had very good luck with McCormack. Their people hve been very patient with me picking thru their stock and I've found excellent quality in the past. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor@thepalmergroup.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re:Sitka spruce availability Mike I purchased some rough cut 1" spruce at McCormick Lumber in Madison last year. It Planed to 3/4". I think it was $4.50 a board foot. It had to pick through a lot to get decent stuff. It was dirty and played hell with my planer blades, Their 1 1/2 stock was pretty poor. Their web is http://www.mccormicklumber.com/index.htm. When talking with Andy, I don't believe he will ever order any more stock. Jack Textor Vice President Palmer Group 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Michael Turrell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re:Sitka spruce availability Thanks Corky,I called them and was told they don't carry aircraft grade Sitka any longer and any sitka ordered would be at my own risk as to quality.I was told that if they did special order aircraft grade ,it would be considerably more than the current $8.78/bd.ft. for the regular stuff so I will keep looking for the best deal I can find,There is a place in Western Canada that I have to look up also.The hunt is half the fun,or so I've been told ;-) Regards,Mike


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:11:52 PM PST US
    From: dmott9@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Flying NX770CG
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dmott9@aol.com Hi, I too have received my DVD from Chuch and last night watched it. Brings back memories of when I was learning to fly in a C-150. I could see and feel the movement of the airplane and the wind. It is a great video. I love the various angles. You must have shot an awful lot more hours of video that what is on the DVD. I would have liked to have seen some more comparisons of the Model A vs the A-65 as well as seeing the Model A up close running etc. Loved the different sections. Another THANKS CHUCK from me ! (Check got mailed 1-6-06) This was a birthday present from me to me ! Can't wait for the construction video ! Dennis


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:16:18 PM PST US
    From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: SHOULDER HARNESS
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> Hi Dick, I'd love to have the info about the british shoulder harness info for the front cockpit - that's where my daughter will be riding until she's old enough to fly it herself. Please send the files to this address: gardner.698@osu.edu That's my work e-mail & it's hi speed, my home one is cranky old dial-up. Thanks! Kip Gardner At 8:56 AM -0600 1/6/06, rhartwig11@juno.com wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com > >I have the information on the British approved SHOULDER HARNESS for the >front cockpit. If you want the info e-mail me directly by clicking on >this link rhartwig11@juno.com . The files are about 1 meg so it will >take a few minutes to download if you have a dial up connection. >Dick H > > -- North Canton, OH


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:48:06 PM PST US
    From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: seat belts/harness. Safety (maybe out of theme, Delete?)
    Hi Sterling, Yes, you are right, I also use a harness in my airplanes, I was thinking in another thing: Maybe not your point at all I accept it now, but my post was because I reminded that many pilots try to compare safety of planes with cars... even braking power in their wheels. cars crash with others because they move in the same "level" and brake hard because of intersections and red lights... so they need colapsable structure, etc. and heavy disk brakes. Planes fly at their speed out of (normally) other planes area, also they bleed speed in the strip at touch down before aplying the brakes, most dont even use the brakes until turning (hold a wheel). Yes, when a plane crushes normally ends as a mess. A harness and a way to safety things inside the cabin (tools, carry on cloths in long flights etc) can prevent injuries to pilot and passenger in minor incidents. I every case, lets keep us alert when flying, if we are not in perfect "mental fit" that day, better go back and fly the next day... Aviation is jelous and wont forgive. Sorry for not getting your point right... Saludos Gary Gower. Do not archive. Sterling <sterling@pgrb.com> wrote: Gary: Had this guy had a better way to strap himself in, he would have not required surgery to his face. He failed to control his airplane in a shallow turn and he screwed up, but still a small harness would have prevented his face from impacting the panel. Needless to say, he managed to walk away from the wreck, but he is disfigured for life. Better planning and flying skills would have prevented this, and a small harness would kept his face from slamming into the panel. My Cessna and my Piper Cherokee all had some absorbant material on the panel, but the Pietenpol this chap was flying was typical to plans and the panel was unforgiving to a facial impact. My dad first gave me flying lessons when I was 14 years old in a Twin Bonanza back in 1965, and he always strapped me in good. Yes, I learned to not panic and fly the airplane regardless of conditions, and yes I have had forced landings without incidence, but the extra margin of safety afforded by a simple harness in a Pietenpol is on my list. No, I won't have a ballistic parachute (too heavy and expensive) but I might dangle a rabbits foot on the panel of my aircamper for good luck. Sterling 5TA6 ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 12:18 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: seat belts/harness. Hi Sterling, Lets face it.... Airplanes are NOT designed to crash,,, The important thing is to become proficient while flying and learn how your plane reacts in any emergency.. I say this because the human body only resists a limited amount of sudden impact G's harness or not you might not survive a severe impact, but at list safety harnessed to your seat :-). Planes out of control are capable to add lots of speed VERY FAST before impact, they are FALLING down... So the more important thing is to fly it down as under control as much as our experience will allow us. Newbies pilots think that BRS and Safety Harness will save their life, Bahhh only learning and practicing emergency procedures will. Fly it always untill is taxing to the platform ;-) Saludos Gary Gower. Sterling <sterling@pgrb.com> wrote: DO NOT ARCHIVE Douwe... I don't think anyone on this list will argue with you and most of us will say safety is no hang-up... I saw a Pietenpol last year that had been in a stall accident about 100 feet off the ground whilst the pilot was trying to return to the grass strip h e had just taken off from, when learning a presidential TFR was in effect at Crawford (not too far from Waco.) The pilot's face impacted the panel and although I didn't see the chap's face, I hate to think what it looked like after the impact. The aftermath was alarming. The panel was smashed up pretty good from the fellow's face and this pilot only had a seat belt in his Piet. My Piet only has a seat belt setup (I bought it as a project) and I plan on going back into the fuselage to attach cables to the tail (much in the same way you have described) in order to fabricate a shoulder harness. An A&P/IA suggested this same method to me for attaching the shoulder harness. I am confident my wife would leave me if my face got any uglier, thus the reason for wanting the shoulder harness in my A ir Camper. DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: seat belts/harness Ken, I guess we all have our little "hang-ups" and safety harness is one of mine. I've probably overengineered mine, but with that panel so close to my face, it gives me more peace of mind. I've fashioned a glass seat bottom with a scoop for my rump which is not only much more comfortable, it also drops me down almost two inches into the cockpit. Now, if I run the harness out the top of the turtle deck, the angle is right and would minimize any spine compression, which is a possibility if the harness originates much lower than one's shoulders. I welded up a very light tubular pylon that mounts just inside the turtle deck, to which my harness bolts. Then a cable runs from that bolt, back to the tailskid mounting area. If I remember correctly, the pilot's seat belt bolts through both the vertical member with some ash blocking. The passenger seat belt bolts through the bottom crossmember and through the metal strap that runs between gear fittings on the bottom of the fuse. I am planning on snapping my passenger's harness to the rear X bracing (rods in my case), as this should spread any load between many fittings, but we'll see if my inspector lets it go. That's a really hard spot to find a good anchor. I do have some shots and drawings somewhere from England of a pretty nice Piet installation. you'd have to plan very early since it really must be fitte d while the fuse is in the works. if you want, email me and I'll TRY to find them. Douwe douweblumberg@earthlink.net --------------------------------- Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.




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