Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:08 AM - Re: Corvair engine cowling..... (MICHAEL SILVIUS)
2. 05:53 AM - Re: Steel fittings (Gene Beenenga)
3. 05:55 AM - Re: Steel fittings (Gene Beenenga)
4. 09:27 AM - Re: The nose knows (Bill Church)
5. 10:00 AM - Re: woodworker intimidated by metal fittings (Rick Holland)
6. 10:15 AM - Re: welding/premade parts (Rick Holland)
7. 10:18 AM - Re: Re:woodworker intimidated by metal fittings (Rick Holland)
8. 10:23 AM - Re: woodworker intimidated by metal fittings (Phillips, Jack)
9. 01:07 PM - "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling. (Graham Hansen)
10. 01:20 PM - Re: Tundra tires or Motorcycle tires (Robison)
11. 02:18 PM - AS&S- Tundra tires (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
12. 05:29 PM - Re: woodworker intimidated by metal fittings (Rick Holland)
13. 05:53 PM - Re: Corvair engine cowling..... (Clif Dawson)
14. 07:14 PM - Re: Pietenpol-List thrust line..... (Wizzard187@aol.com)
15. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List thrust line..... (Dick Navratil)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair engine cowling..... |
I personally like the William Wynne rendition. Oscar has a good set of pictures
on his page at:
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/WWPiet.html
looks like most of the parts are flat panel.
The top segment of the cowl could be shaped freehand out of foam to a pleasing
profile and made of fiberglass.
A lot of the full cowls you see on Piets w/ Corvairs are for the original Corvair
converssion retaining the belt driven blower fan.
michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth M. Heide
To: Pietenpol
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:50 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair engine cowling.....
Hello Fellow Pietens:
The simple question I have is this: Are there any plans for a corvair designed
cowling? The photo sent with my plans (appears to be a piet with a corvair engine)
looks just like a production cowl. Very well done!
Does anyone have plans or drawings to make fabrication guessing much less enjoyable?
I am allergic to cranial rectal inversion even though I catch it every
so often.
Ken Heide
Fargo, ND
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Steel fittings |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gene Beenenga <kgbunltd@earthlink.net>
Leon, please spell out who AS&S is, as a source for flat steel. thanks
-----Original Message-----
>From: Leon Stefan <lshutks@webtv.net>
>Sent: Jan 12, 2006 5:13 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steel fittings
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>
>Scott: A lot of the steel fittings are simple steel strap. For instance
>strut fittings are .90 X 1 X what ever long. AS&S sells steel strip in
>various sizes and withs, just cut to length. buy an extra couple of feet
>of everything . This saved me a lot of work. Leon S.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Steel fittings |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gene Beenenga <kgbunltd@earthlink.net>
sorry Leon, Aircraft Spruce and Specialty. Gene
-----Original Message-----
>From: Leon Stefan <lshutks@webtv.net>
>Sent: Jan 12, 2006 5:13 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steel fittings
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>
>Scott: A lot of the steel fittings are simple steel strap. For instance
>strut fittings are .90 X 1 X what ever long. AS&S sells steel strip in
>various sizes and withs, just cut to length. buy an extra couple of feet
>of everything . This saved me a lot of work. Leon S.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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In my opinion, the one feature that seems to "make or break" the
appearance of individual Pietenpols is "the nose". If you find a photo
of a Piet that you really like, and one that you really don't, and cover
up the noses on both, quite often you will find not so much different
between the two (with the exception of overall quality, and paint
scheme). One of the characteristics that sets the original Piet apart
from other aircraft is the stubby nose, which was a result of the heavy
Ford engine up front. By maintaining the basic shape of the nose from
the original Piet (Ford powered) some (Frank Pavliga, Mike Cuy, Corky
and others) have been able to successfully carry the "feel" of the
original design. Here's a link to a nice shot of Frank Pavliga's clean
installation:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Jford@indstate.edu.09.13.2003/59_pie
t_with_tailskid.jpg
A beautifully hand-crafted aluminum cowling was on display at Brodhead
in 2003. This one has compound curves, and is much more work than other
designs, but I think looks sharp. By the way, this was built by Ty
Daniels, of Brodhead, while attending High School/College. Here's a link
to a shot, as well as an attached photo (N518EP):
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Jford@indstate.edu.09.13.2003/54_bla
ck_and_red_piet.jpg
Another cowling design that "works" for me is Hans van der Voort's
recently completed Piet.
http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol/photo/302598
http://www.hometown.aol.com/hvandervoo/cowling.html
Some British Piets have some cowlings that seem to work well.
G-BXZO has a relatively simple cowling (no compound curves) that is
effective and looks good:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/677559/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/931305/L/
G-BUCO has a cowling that evokes the feel of the Thirties. Only the nose
bowl looks to be a bit more challenging:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/678119/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/976273/L/
G-ECVB has a nice looking nose. Compound curve on the top (so more
difficulty to fabricate), but it looks really sharp, I think:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/678121/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/276262/L/
(is that enough URL's for you?)
And finally, I have also attached a few shots of the cowling on a
Canadian Piet that I had a look at this summer. Similar to the cowl on
G-BUCO, but maybe not quite as complicated to build. (Collingwood pics)
Anyway, these are a few ideas.
Bill
PS: I have reduced the size of the attachments for the sake of those
with slow internet connections. Hopefully the resolution is big enough
to be legible.
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
Here's the question: What is your favorite cowl on a Piet that has one
of the Cont/Lyc/Frank flat four engines? If possible, supply a URL that
links to a photo.
Thanks,
Jeff
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: woodworker intimidated by metal fittings |
I was in the same place you are about two years ago. Figured I would find a
professional welder to do my welding also. First question is do you want to
learn a new craft besides woodworking? I first took a gas welding class at
the local community college then a TIG class. After that I still wasn't sure
that I trusted my life to my welding ability so I took the EAA tig class
specifically for aircraft welding. Just one weekend and I knew I could it.
Bought a tig machine and have done all my own welding. I am doing little
welding jobs all the time, can't imagine having to drive to a welding shop
every time I needed a weld done. Very little difference between welding 4130
and mild steel (or even stainless), and welding aluminum with tig is also
easy (unlike with gas). And that good feeling you get now showing someone
your excellent woodwork? The feeling is even better showing people your
metal/welding work since most people have worked with wood, but few know
anything about metal work.
Every time the subject of welding comes up on any homebuilder newsgroup the
subject of stress relieving comes up. I decided I would be to the bottom of
that when I started taking welding classes. I have personally interviewed at
least 12 welding 'gods' at every Sun n Fun and Oshkosh welding forum I could
find for 3 years including Finch himself plus Miller and Lincoln PhD
metallurgist factory engineers who have done laboratory stress testing on
the subject and published white papers.
The final verdict - you don't need to stress relieve.
Concerning fabricating metal I just use a $49 angle grinder with 1/8"
cutting wheels, a $99 bench top drill press, $49 cordless hand drill, and a
$39 6" bench grinding wheel, can get by without a metal band saw (although
it wouldn't hurt, can get a cheap one for $199 at Grizzly).
On 1/11/06, Scott S. <covertspecialops@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm an excellent woodworker who's intimidated by all the metal fittings in
> the Pietenpol. If not for that, I'd have jumped headlong into building last
> spring when I first ordered plans and signed up for this list.
>
> My first question (among many), is it possible for an inexperienced person
> to weld the small parts with a $300 electric welder from Home Depot, or must
> it be done by a skilled professional? Secondly, I would appreciate leads as
> to where I can buy fittings pre-made for the Piet, as I don't have the tools
> or knowledge to cut them out quickly and efficiently. Resourceful I am.
> Metalworker I am not.
>
> Thanks for any info you guys can give.
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: welding/premade parts |
One thing to think about concerning precut fittings, several can be too
small if cut to plan dimensions, like the motor mount fittings. You can find
info on this in the archives.
On 1/12/06, Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> Welcome to Piet land!
>
> I know that Lee Stenson at Brodhead airport had some parts laser cut and
> was offering them for sale about four years ago. I don't have his number
> but you could track him down if you get hold of someone at Brodhead, WI
> airport. Maybe he has some laying around. They were very nice.
>
> Do not be afraid to tackle the fittings, they're very simple. Think of it
> as hard plywood and work it the same, just use metal working tools. The
> bandsaw mentioned is perfect, just use a metal cutting blade and slow the
> speed down, then file and grind edges etc, etc. Be sure you get Tony
> Bingalas' books on building from EAA and you'll gain lots of confidence.
>
> Don't mig weld aircraft parts. TIG is too expensive, so find yourself a
> nice little oxy/acetelyne setup and a book or two or even a video (all
> available through EAA or elsewhere) and just start. If you have a friend,
> ask him or pay a welder to help you for a few hours. Be sure you use good
> rod from an aircraft supplier once you really start on actual fittings, but
> you can research that later.
>
> If this all was that difficult, you think we'd be able to be doing it??!!
>
> and.. just keep asking questions, that's why we're all here
>
> Douwe
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: re:woodworker intimidated by metal fittings |
I agree, if I build another Piet I would weld the fuselage and save weight
at the same time. Compared to the cost of the spruce fuselage I am building
now I don't think it would cost much more either.
On 1/11/06, Michael Turrell <emtyit@3web.net> wrote:
>
> Glenn I believe is correct the only 2 safe methods for welding an aircraft
> are oxy-acetylene and TIG .This is all I have ever read and what I was told
> at the workshops at Oshkosh that I attended. I took a course at our local
> college on oxy-acetylene .It was a great expierience and gave me the
> confidence I needed.I'm still practicing on scrap metal and making things
> in metal for around the house,and am destructing some of my welds and am
> quite pleased with my work.I am a cabinet maker but I find the welding
> quite relaxing and am seriously considering building the piet out of
> 4130.They were building a piet at Oshkosh last summer out of metal and
> when I asked why,the gentleman told me for him welding was the most
> enjoyable medium he could work with.Also easy to add things like a door
> and find a place to attach your shoulder harness too.
> If you get the chance read Budd Davisson's' Zen and the Art of the Weld
> Puddle' you can find it at http://www.airbum.com.The eaa video on oxy-acet
> welding is also very good.
> Regards,Mike
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 8
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| Subject: | woodworker intimidated by metal fittings |
Just to add to what Rick said, welding is not that difficult to learn.
Buy a "Grab Bag" of scrap 4130 ($15) from AS&S to practice on, take a
course at OSH or SNF, or just get someone from your local EAA chapter
who knows how to weld teach you for a few minutes, then just practice.
I started building a wooden airplane becasue I didn't know how to weld,
but a local EAA member showed me how, I bought the oxyacetylene rig from
AS&S and did all the welding on my Pietenpol except for the aluminum
fuel tank and the stainless exhausts, which a friend TIG welded for me.
I bought the $199 metal cutting bandsaw from Grizzly and highly
recommend it. Even after finishing the Piet, I find that I use it a
lot, and it sure makes it easier to cut out the steel parts for a
Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Holland
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: woodworker intimidated by metal fittings
I was in the same place you are about two years ago. Figured I would
find a professional welder to do my welding also. First question is do
you want to learn a new craft besides woodworking? I first took a gas
welding class at the local community college then a TIG class. After
that I still wasn't sure that I trusted my life to my welding ability so
I took the EAA tig class specifically for aircraft welding. Just one
weekend and I knew I could it. Bought a tig machine and have done all my
own welding. I am doing little welding jobs all the time, can't imagine
having to drive to a welding shop every time I needed a weld done. Very
little difference between welding 4130 and mild steel (or even
stainless), and welding aluminum with tig is also easy (unlike with
gas). And that good feeling you get now showing someone your excellent
woodwork? The feeling is even better showing people your metal/welding
work since most people have worked with wood, but few know anything
about metal work.
Every time the subject of welding comes up on any homebuilder newsgroup
the subject of stress relieving comes up. I decided I would be to the
bottom of that when I started taking welding classes. I have personally
interviewed at least 12 welding 'gods' at every Sun n Fun and Oshkosh
welding forum I could find for 3 years including Finch himself plus
Miller and Lincoln PhD metallurgist factory engineers who have done
laboratory stress testing on the subject and published white papers.
The final verdict - you don't need to stress relieve.
Concerning fabricating metal I just use a $49 angle grinder with 1/8"
cutting wheels, a $99 bench top drill press, $49 cordless hand drill,
and a $39 6" bench grinding wheel, can get by without a metal band saw
(although it wouldn't hurt, can get a cheap one for $199 at Grizzly).
On 1/11/06, Scott S. <covertspecialops@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm an excellent woodworker who's intimidated by all the metal fittings
in the Pietenpol. If not for that, I'd have jumped headlong into
building last spring when I first ordered plans and signed up for this
list.
My first question (among many), is it possible for an inexperienced
person to weld the small parts with a $300 electric welder from Home
Depot, or must it be done by a skilled professional? Secondly, I would
appreciate leads as to where I can buy fittings pre-made for the Piet,
as I don't have the tools or knowledge to cut them out quickly and
efficiently. Resourceful I am. Metalworker I am not.
Thanks for any info you guys can give.
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 9
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| Subject: | "The nose knows"...my Pietenpol cowling. |
Group,
This cowling is made from .032" commercial soft aluminum and has survived 750 flying
hours over a period of 35 years.
The picture was taken on November 15, 2000---the thirtieth anniversary of its first
flight. The engine is a Continental C 85.
The upper cowl is made of three pieces: top center portion and two sides. The lower
cowl is a single piece of sheet aluminum, with a segment below the propeller
cut out and the resulting lap joint riveted together. The only compound curvature
is in the top center piece which was made by hammer, sand bag and dolly.
If I were to do it again, I'd extend this compound curvature further aft to
minimize the "break" in the upper cowl line at the firewall. Otherwise, I'd change
nothing in the basic design and construction.
This cowling is light in weight and relatively easy to make. Construction paper
was used for a "mockup". Patterns were made and then transferred to the sheet
metal.
If anyone is interested, I can perhaps find a more detailed photo and maybe cobble
together a sketch of its construction.
Graham Hansen
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Tundra tires or Motorcycle tires |
Kenneth H.
Are you going to use the slicks or straight trac? Looks like they weigh about
9lbs ea.
Scott R
Message 11
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| Subject: | AS&S- Tundra tires |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
AS & S is Aircraft Spruce and Specialties. My entire landing gear with
tundra tires (except bungees) weighs 48 lbs. Its the J-3 style from the
plans. I accidentally ordered tubing a size heavier than I needed, so I
could have saved even more weight Kirk Huizenga has asked me to send
him pictures and he offered to post them. I don't have that ability.
The front cockpit door comes up occasionally. I also need to dig up a
photo of the beef up needed with the Kerri Ann Price door for Kirk to
post also. Kirk, I am going to shoot some better pictures this weekend.
Leon S.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: woodworker intimidated by metal fittings |
I have lowered myself to doing some dumpster diving at the local muffler
shops after hours. The smaller diameter exhaust pipe is great for
practicing. If a homeless person asks you what you're doing just say your
muffler rusted off. And I also got the grab bag of 4130 from AS, ended up
using several pieces of it on my Piet.
On 1/13/06, Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com> wrote:
>
> Just to add to what Rick said, welding is not that difficult to learn.
> Buy a "Grab Bag" of scrap 4130 ($15) from AS&S to practice on, take a course
> at OSH or SNF, or just get someone from your local EAA chapter who knows how
> to weld teach you for a few minutes, then just practice. I started building
> a wooden airplane becasue I didn't know how to weld, but a local EAA member
> showed me how, I bought the oxyacetylene rig from AS&S and did all the
> welding on my Pietenpol except for the aluminum fuel tank and the stainless
> exhausts, which a friend TIG welded for me.
>
>
> I bought the $199 metal cutting bandsaw from Grizzly and highly recommend
> it. Even after finishing the Piet, I find that I use it a lot, and it sure
> makes it easier to cut out the steel parts for a Pietenpol.
>
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> NX899JP
>
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair engine cowling..... |
I'm torn. I like the idea of Jim Malley's Jenny style
with all that bright shiny engine turning but I also
like this one, except for all that stuff hanging off
the bottom, which wouldn't be there on a corvair.
Usually the eyebrow thing reminds me of a certain
Disney character but here they're not so noticeable.
Made by Bill Borie, Winterhaven, FL
And seatbelts. One important consideration that's
a deciding factor in certified AC is the ability to
pop the latch easily when one is hanging upside
down, not always the case with standard auto belts
I'm told.
Clif
Hello Fellow Pietens:
The simple question I have is this: Are there any plans for a corvair designed
cowling? The photo sent with my plans (appears to be a piet with a corvair
engine) looks just like a production cowl. Very well done!
Does anyone have plans or drawings to make fabrication guessing much less enjoyable?
I am allergic to cranial rectal inversion even though I catch it every
so often.
Ken Heide
Fargo, ND
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List thrust line..... |
Pieters, I just put my wings on in the machine shed and I gave the top
longerons a quick angle measurment and came up with 14 degrees. Now part of
the problem is that I started out with 6:00 x 6 wheels but then went to 21
inch motorcycle wheel which raised the axles about 3 inches. I think 12 degrees
is normal and wonder how it will handle, Sure looks high but easy to prop.
This was measured empty but with my 230 pounds in the back seat the
tailwheel will probably deflect as much as the mains. Any comments would be
appreciated. Ken Conrad in very mild Iowa.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List thrust line..... |
One word of caution, when you get to flying. Make sure that you get the tail up
early on takeoff roll. It can want to lift off before it's ready to fly. If
can lead to a stall in ground effect.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Wizzard187@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List thrust line.....
Pieters, I just put my wings on in the machine shed and I gave the top longerons
a quick angle measurment and came up with 14 degrees. Now part of the
problem is that I started out with 6:00 x 6 wheels but then went to 21 inch motorcycle
wheel which raised the axles about 3 inches. I think 12 degrees is
normal and wonder how it will handle, Sure looks high but easy to prop. This
was measured empty but with my 230 pounds in the back seat the tailwheel will
probably deflect as much as the mains. Any comments would be appreciated. Ken
Conrad in very mild Iowa.
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