Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:43 AM - Oil pressure gauge (rhartwig11@juno.com)
2. 07:01 AM - Re: New to the List (Roman Bukolt)
3. 07:12 AM - oil pressure gauge (Oscar Zuniga)
4. 07:25 AM - Re: oil pressure gauge (Rick Holland)
5. 07:28 AM - Re: oil pressure gauge (Sterling)
6. 07:30 AM - Re: Oil pressure gauge (Rick Holland)
7. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: wing spar question (Steve Glass)
8. 09:02 AM - Re: Static Load Testing (barnstmr@aol.com)
9. 09:31 AM - Re: Static Load Testing (Hans Vander Voort)
10. 10:42 AM - Re: New to the List (Dick Navratil)
11. 11:14 AM - Wheels (Ben Ramler)
12. 11:42 AM - Re: Wheels (Phillips, Jack)
13. 02:06 PM - Re: Wheels (Kenneth M. Heide)
14. 02:16 PM - Re: Wheels (barnstmr@aol.com)
15. 02:19 PM - Re: Wheels (Sterling)
16. 02:20 PM - Re: New to the List (walt evans)
17. 02:58 PM - Re: Static Load Testing (Malcolm Morrison)
18. 03:01 PM - Re: Wheels (John and Phyllis Smoyer)
19. 04:05 PM - Re: New to the List (Galen Hutcheson)
20. 04:50 PM - Re: Wheels (Sterling)
21. 04:58 PM - had to share this amazing video (walt evans)
22. 05:49 PM - Re: had to share this amazing video (Jim Markle)
23. 07:15 PM - Re: Wheels (Catdesign)
24. 07:41 PM - Re: Wheels (Mountain Piet update too) (Greg Bacon)
Message 1
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Subject: | Oil pressure gauge |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com
Rick,
I believe William Wynne recommends non-electric "steem"gauges for oil
pressure--check his manual.
Rich H.
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: New to the List |
FYI-
I'm probably one of the luckiest Piet builders on the list because I live 38 mi.
from Brodhead and 83 mi. from Oshkosh.
"Hog Heaven" Last summer at Brodhead we had 22 Pietenpols there. What an opportunity
to see all the indiviual unique ways everyone resolved their ideas on
how to build their plane.
do not archive
Message 3
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Subject: | oil pressure gauge |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
I stand corrected-! Indeed, William lists the Auto Meter 5721 and 5741
MECHANICAL oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his latest list of
Corvair engine instrument recommendations.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: oil pressure gauge |
Must depend on whether you plan on having an alternator. I called down there
yesterday and they said use electrical gauges.
Rick H
On 1/24/06, Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <
> taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
> I stand corrected-! Indeed, William lists the Auto Meter 5721 and 5741
> MECHANICAL oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his latest list of
> Corvair engine instrument recommendations.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: oil pressure gauge |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sterling" <sterling@pgrb.com>
OZcar:
What happened to the snazzy VDO guages you got from me with the Corvair
bounty you acquired in Junction, TX?
Plata
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:12 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: oil pressure gauge
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga"
> <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
> I stand corrected-! Indeed, William lists the Auto Meter 5721 and 5741
> MECHANICAL oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his latest list of
> Corvair engine instrument recommendations.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Oil pressure gauge |
William's manual says "The pressure lines are therefore the lines to work to
avoid having in the cabin". On page 63.
On 1/24/06, rhartwig11@juno.com <rhartwig11@juno.com> wrote:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com
>
> Rick,
> I believe William Wynne recommends non-electric "steem"gauges for oil
> pressure--check his manual.
> Rich H.
>
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: wing spar question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Glass" <redsglass@hotmail.com>
Hi Greg
I just received an article via email from Doug Mundy. It is 5 pages from
April 1961 Magazine about the builtup spars. I bet it is the same one.
Thank you for your offer.
Best regards
Steve G
>From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question
>Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:32:30 -0600
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
>
>Steve,
>Send me a self addressed, stamped envelope and I will send you an article
>on designing built-up spars. The article was published in Sport Aviation in
>the early 1960's.
>My address is:
>
>Greg Cardinal
>5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
>Minneapolis, MN 55417
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass@hotmail.com>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:43 AM
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question
>
>
>>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Glass"
>><redsglass@hotmail.com>
>>
>>Hi Everybody.
>>
>>I have been lurking on the list and decided to jump in and ask a question
>>about the spars.
>>
>>I think the original design is great. I also think it makes sense to use
>>modern materials such as epoxy where it makes sense. I know there is a
>>builtup spar that has been designed for the wing.
>>
>>I have been in the yacht building business for 30 years and know that good
>>wood is getting more difficult to find and more expensive. When I build
>>mine I will feel more confident in building the spar with spruce caps and
>>a ply web. Has anybody gone this route, compared finished weights etc.
>>
>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>Steve G.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Static Load Testing |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: barnstmr@aol.com
Mike,
I see nobody ever got back to you on your test question. Are you
planning to load the wing more than 1 or 2 G's? If I were going to do
this, I would build a steel fixture to suspend the airframe (inverted)
from above. Thats a lot of work though. I think the 75+ years of
flight testing is enough for me to go without static testing.
Does anyone know of a failure of a Pietenpol wing overloaded? Perhaps
more likely is failures of over gross weight flight attempts with too
little power.
Terry L. Bowden
-----Original Message-----
From: Malcolm Morrison <morrisons5@adelphia.net>
Sent: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 20:39:33 -0500
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing
I?m interested in anyone?s thoughts on static load testing of the
Piet wing. I would like to do a positive load test, but I?m not sure
what the easiest/best way to do this would be. I think that I will need
to invert the assembled airframe and suspend it on some type of stand.
Then, add sand bags to the wings, distributing the weight in an
elliptical pattern. The sand bags would set on planks that rest on the
spars of the assembled, but uncovered wings. That?s the concept, but
I?m wondering how and where to support the fuselage and wing. Should
the support be under the inverted wing center section spars, or should
it be on the floor of the fuselage? Any thoughts?
Malcolm
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Static Load Testing |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com>
Tim,
You could put the assembled airframe inverted (without tail) on some saw
horses.
Do you intend to test to failure?
Or just 3G load?
Since everyone builds the piet differently it would not validate all other
construction options.
How did you build your spar? (routed/ non-routed, 3/4"/ 1", laminated?),
spruce or other wood
What struts are you using, steel or aluminum and what size?
Strut attachments to plans or the Piper/Aeronca fittings?
What cables did you use, 1/8 or 3/32"?, Galvanized or Stainless?
And there are many more valid optional variations to build a Pietenpol.
None of them necessarily wrong but the test would be only valid for your
option.
Theoretically it would be interesting to build the weakest option and test
to fail.
Lets say 1/2" spruce spars, with plain mild steel fittings, and the small
size aluminum struts.
It would be nice to know the end result of such test.
Hans
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: New to the List |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Hey Mike
I'm here in St. Paul all winter this year. I'm working hard on gettin g
thae radial engine started in the next couple of weeks.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New to the List
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> Ben-- the guy you want to talk to is Chris Bobka in MSP. He is a
> world-renowned expert in Pietenpols and small
> aircraft engines.
>
> I think Dick Navratil is from MN too....but not positve. I know he
> winters in FL.
>
> Welcome to the list !
>
> PS-- take a shop course in gas welding or if you have access to a TIG unit
> use that for your metal fittings. If you can make
> metal fittings that is half the battle. More than 1/2 acutally. The
> woodwork is pretty easy, but the metal work and welding
> are the time-consuming portions of the plane.
>
> PSS-- get ALL of the Tony Bingelis books from EAA on building homebuilts.
> You can order them on the EAA web site. I think the
> set of 4 books are something like $80. VERY much worth the money.
>
> Mike C. in Ohio
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>
>
>
Message 11
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|
Thanks again to all who applied.
Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate
with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started
a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos
let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways,
Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that?
Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done
by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much!
thanks again & Take Care,
Ben Ramler
---------------------------------
Message 12
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Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint
jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions:
1. Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are
much simpler without brakes. Planes quit using wire wheels about the
time they started using brakes
2. If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good
brake to hold a 21" wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like
Clevelands), mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like
go-karts, and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums
like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I can't see why you would want to
do that.
3. Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is
to use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty
big discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they
might stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels
there are several considerations:
a. There has been considerable discussion about whether
motorcycle wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a
crosswind landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the
realization that if you are making a bad enough landing to fold the
wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway. I'm not sure
there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on
landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of
wheels
b. Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a
thousand pounds of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If
you get on the brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8" Clevelands
are simply not capable of exerting that kind of stopping power
c. Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings
than the typical 1-1/2" axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat
of an authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The design of the
Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The
axle's ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power
of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the
strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16
times)
If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own
hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an
outfit in California called Buchanan's that nearly everybody uses for
that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be
determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own
hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the
hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine shop.
Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart brakes. If
you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might as well
make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item a above
- while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not
design them to be stronger?).
I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. I've also
got pictures of Mike Cuy's that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much
simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might
have some pics of his wheels as well.
Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best.
There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben
Ramler
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Thanks again to all who applied.
Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always
communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at
some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If
anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post
it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how
those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done
professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by
plans? Any help would be appreciated very much!
thanks again & Take Care,
Ben Ramler
Message 13
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|
Say Jack,
I would love to see all of those photos you are talking about. Still a toss up
for me.... Also maybe brakes or maybe a tail skid.....
Ken Heide
Fargo, ND
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com> wrote:
Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are
paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions:
Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler without
brakes. Planes quit using wire wheels about the time they started using
brakes
If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to hold a
21 wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical discs
(like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums. I
guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I cant
see why you would want to do that.
Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use existing
motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and are capable
of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well, causing
a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations:
There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels are
strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used to be
in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a bad enough
landing to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway.
Im not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing
on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels
Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds of Air
Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes hard
enough, it might nose over. My 8 Clevelands are simply not capable of exerting
that kind of stopping power
Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical 1-1/2
axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on Pietenpol
axles since I broke one. The design of the Pietenpol undercarriage puts
really substantial loads on the axle. The axles ability to withstand those loads
is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter
a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases
the stress by 16 times)
If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs and
have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California
called Buchanans that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your own
hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of brake
you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes
I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum
by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical
go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might
as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item
a above while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not design
them to be stronger?).
I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. Ive also got pictures
of Mike Cuys that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels
since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his wheels
as well.
Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are
many ways to do it, and most of them are right.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Icarus Plummet
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Thanks again to all who applied.
Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate
with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started
a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see
photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways,
Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that?
Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was
done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much!
thanks again & Take Care,
Ben Ramler
---------------------------------
Message 14
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|
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: barnstmr@aol.com
Me too. Why not post them on the Matronics photo site for all to see.
Terry L. Bowden
-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth M. Heide <kmheidecpo@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:05:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Say Jack,
I would love to see all of those photos you are talking about. Still a
toss up for me.... Also maybe brakes or maybe a tail skid.....
Ken Heide
Fargo, ND
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com> wrote:
Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are
paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions:
* Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much
simpler without brakes. Pla nes quit using wire wheels about the time
they started using brakes
* If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to
hold a 21" wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands),
mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts,
and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3
Cub but for the life of me I can't see why you would want to do that.
* Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to
use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big
discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might
stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there
are several considerations:
* There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle
wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind
landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the realization
that if you are making a bad enough landi ng to fold the wheel,
something else is likely to get damaged anyway. I'm not sure there is a
single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on landing on a
Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels
* Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds
of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the
brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8" Clevelands are simply not
capable of exerting that kind of stopping power
* Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the
typical 1-1/2" axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an
authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The desi gn of the
Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The
axle's ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power
of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the
strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16
times)
If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own
hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an
outfit in California called Buchanan's that nearly everybody uses for
that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be
determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own
hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the
hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine
shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart
brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you
might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading
(see item a above - while it might not be an issue, if you are making
new ones why not design them to be stronger?).
I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. I've
also got pictures of Mike Cuy's that I can send. Greg Cardinal built
much simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I
might have some pics of his wheels as well.
Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best.
There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben
Ramler
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Thanks again to all who applied.
Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always
communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at
some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If
anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post
it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how
those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done
professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by
plans? Any help would be appreciated very much!
thanks again & Take Care,
Ben Ramler
--------
on new and used cars.
Message 15
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If I can get some of the mess out of my hanger I'll pull my Pietenpol out into
the 75 degree sunny shiney day and send anyone who in interested a picture of
the Honda CB350 motorcycle wheels on my airplane. I had them powder coated red
to match the color I plan on painting the fuselage, but now I wish I would have
painted the wheels black for a more authentic/nostalgic look.
Sterling
----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth M. Heide
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Say Jack,
I would love to see all of those photos you are talking about. Still a toss up
for me.... Also maybe brakes or maybe a tail skid.....
Ken Heide
Fargo, ND
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com> wrote:
Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint jobs
on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions:
1.. Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler
without brakes. Pla nes quit using wire wheels about the time they started
using brakes
2.. If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to
hold a 21" wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical
discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums.
I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of
me I can't see why you would want to do that.
3.. Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use
existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and
are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well,
causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations:
1.. There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels
are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used
to be in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a
bad enough landi ng to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged
anyway. I'm not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel
failing on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types
of wheels
2.. Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds
of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes
hard enough, it might nose over. My 8" Clevelands are simply not capable of
exerting that kind of stopping power
3.. Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical
1-1/2" axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on
Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The desi gn of the Pietenpol undercarriage
puts really substantial loads on the axle. The axle's ability to withstand
those loads is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the
diameter a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half
increases the stress by 16 times)
If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs
and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California
called Buchanan's that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your
own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of
brake you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes
I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum
by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical
go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you
might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item
a above - while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not
design them to be stronger?).
I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. I've also got
pictures of Mike Cuy's that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels
since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his
wheels as well.
Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are
many ways to do it, and most of them are right.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Thanks again to all who applied.
Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate
with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started
a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see
photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways,
Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that?
Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was
done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much!
thanks again & Take Care,
Ben Ramler
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: New to the List |
Ben,
Welcome.
A Pietenpol would be perfect.
go to this site to find where most of the Piets are. You can even add yourself
to the list.
http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Ramler
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:35 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: New to the List
Hello Pietenpol'ers,
Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is Ben Ramler. I live over here
in Granite Falls, MN. I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot License. Since
1996 my dad has owned plans to build an Aircramper. We bought these plans
when we went down to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and at the time I was a Spohmore
in High School. I'm now 25 and thinking about building an airplane. I
know that there is a large following of you people here in the upper Midwest.
What I'd like to ask you all is this. Would the aircamper be a good first time
projecct. In case you want to know who my dad is His name is Jerry Ramler. How
of you are in Minnesota?
Thanks & Take Care,
Ben Ramler
Granite Falls.
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.
Message 17
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Subject: | Static Load Testing |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Malcolm Morrison" <morrisons5@adelphia.net>
Hans,
I have indeed made changes from the plans and that is the driving motivation
for wanting to perform the static load test. I have enlarged the center
section to 47" and tilted the cabanes out at the top so that they still
attach to the ends of the center section spars. The front spar attach
hardware is basically the same as called for on the 3-piece wing plans, but
the rear spar attach hardware is a pivot joint. This is similar to other
designs to allow the wing to fold back. The other change is that the lift
struts will form a 'V', attaching to the fuselage at the rear lift strut
mount location. The steel strap that connects the two lift struts across
the fuselage has been doubled.
I'm looking at an 1100 lb, 3g load, or 3300 lb. Assuming an elliptical lift
distribution the center section would lift about 600lb and each wing panel
would lift about 1300lb. Most of the lift force of the panels would be
transmitted to the lift struts due to the lift distribution around the point
where the struts attach to the wings. The attach points (center section to
panels) would bare little load.
The part I'm pondering is where to suspend the airframe. I could build a
simple, strong box and rest the center section spars on it (inverted). Or I
could build an elaborate stand to rest the ash fuselage cross member on,
hanging all the weight on the fuselage/lift strut attach point. I'm not
sure which is correct.
On the other hand, I'm using proven spar design, proven front spar attach
design, beefy pivot as used on other designs, aircraft hardware throughout.
So, what am I really testing or expecting to see?
Malcolm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander
Voort
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort
<hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com>
Tim,
You could put the assembled airframe inverted (without tail) on some saw
horses.
Do you intend to test to failure?
Or just 3G load?
Since everyone builds the piet differently it would not validate all other
construction options.
How did you build your spar? (routed/ non-routed, 3/4"/ 1", laminated?),
spruce or other wood
What struts are you using, steel or aluminum and what size?
Strut attachments to plans or the Piper/Aeronca fittings?
What cables did you use, 1/8 or 3/32"?, Galvanized or Stainless?
And there are many more valid optional variations to build a Pietenpol.
None of them necessarily wrong but the test would be only valid for your
option.
Theoretically it would be interesting to build the weakest option and test
to fail.
Lets say 1/2" spruce spars, with plain mild steel fittings, and the small
size aluminum struts.
It would be nice to know the end result of such test.
Hans
Message 18
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Sterling: I'd definitely be interested in seeing your wheel pix. If you are taking
new photos, would you mind taking one that shoes how wide the hubs are,
and how the brakes are installed.
Thanks,
John S
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: New to the List |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Hi Ben, welcome to the wonderful world of aircraft
building. You are the same age I was in 1973, just
fresh out of the Army (Vietnam came to a screeching
hault so no use in staying in the Army, and within two
months I was taking flying lessons. They didn't have
the Sport lic then, so I had to go the Private route.
Never regretted learning to fly though. You will love
the Piet in both the building phase and in the flying
phase. Once you are hooked on flying you will never
be the same again. Have fun with your project, stay
excited about it, get help when needed and you will
have a wonderful time. Best wishes and please feel
free to ask any questions you may have.
Doc (H)
Do Not Archive
>
>
> Hello Pietenpol'ers,
>
> Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is
> Ben Ramler. I live over here in Granite Falls, MN.
> I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot License.
> Since 1996 my dad has owned plans to build an
> Aircramper. We bought these plans when we went down
> to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and at the time I
> was a Spohmore in High School. I'm now 25 and
> thinking about building an airplane. I know that
> there is a large following of you people here in the
> upper Midwest. What I'd like to ask you all is this.
> Would the aircamper be a good first time projecct.
> In case you want to know who my dad is His name is
> Jerry Ramler. How of you are in Minnesota?
>
>
> Thanks & Take Care,
>
> Ben Ramler
> Granite Falls.
>
>
>
> Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get
> quality prints in your hands ASAP.
Message 20
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John:
I'll try and wheel the Piet out this weekend. I came up with a novel way for doing
my brakes. I'm confident the Honda wheels will work fine and I think the gossip
about spokes/wheels going south is urban legend. Anyway, a good pilot can
land one of these without side loading the wheels and putting undo stress on
the spokes and hub.
Sterling Brooks
5TA6, San Antonio Sectional
----- Original Message -----
From: John and Phyllis Smoyer
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Sterling: I'd definitely be interested in seeing your wheel pix. If you are
taking new photos, would you mind taking one that shoes how wide the hubs are,
and how the brakes are installed.
Thanks,
John S
Message 21
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Subject: | had to share this amazing video |
Check it out!
http://www.staliteaviation.com/gtuf/bin/sky_diamond.wmv
walt evans
NX140DL
do not archive
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: had to share this amazing video |
That is just about one of the most incredible sights I've EVER seen.....
UNBELIEVABLE!!!
WOW
----- Original Message -----
From: walt evans
To: piet list
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:58 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: had to share this amazing video
Check it out!
http://www.staliteaviation.com/gtuf/bin/sky_diamond.wmv
walt evans
NX140DL
do not archive
Message 23
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Go here to find the definitive article on building wire wheels, thank to Jim for
putting these on the web.
http://mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=3D56
Also look in his building log for pictures of his wheels built to these plans
http://mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=3D803&PlaneID=3D52&FName=3DJim&LName=3DMarkle&PlaneName=3DAir%20Camper
Chris Tracy
Sacramento, Ca
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Ramler
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:14 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Thanks again to all who applied.
Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate
with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started
a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos
let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways,
Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that?
Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done
by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much!
thanks again & Take Care,
Ben Ramler
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Wheels (Mountain Piet update too) |
Ben,
To see an excellent example of wire wheels with custom made hubs and mechanical disc brakes go to http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html. You will also see other great photos of John Dilatush's "Mountain Piet", of which I am the current guardian. As a side note for those of you who know me and the story of John's Mountain Piet, I am very close to getting back to rebuilding the left wing panel, etc. We finished (95% anyway) and moved into our house last Fall. Yes, I have a honey-do list as long as my arm. I've kept a charge on Mtn Piet's battery and run her up every other month for about 10 minutes to keep the engine lubed, move fresh gas in the lines, and to stir up the coolant.
For what it's worth -- On the subject of brakes, my preference is to have them
and to operate them individually. Differential breaking is a really nice thing
to have in a tail dragger. It gives very good taxi control. I had a Cherokee
140 with a single hand brake. As I applied pressure to the brake, it affected
both wheels simultaneously. Turning that plane around took a fairly large
area (as compared to a plane with differential braking). Having breaks also
allows one to perform run-up checks easily.
The great thing about building a piet is that you get to build the system you prefer.
I highly recommend going to the Brodhead fly-in to see the variety of
piet configurations. Bring a camera!
Greg Bacon
Missouri
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Ramler
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 1:14 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Thanks again to all who applied.
Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate
with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started
a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos
let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways,
Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that?
Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done
by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much!
thanks again & Take Care,
Ben Ramler
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