---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/24/06: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:43 AM - Oil pressure gauge (rhartwig11@juno.com) 2. 07:01 AM - Re: New to the List (Roman Bukolt) 3. 07:12 AM - oil pressure gauge (Oscar Zuniga) 4. 07:25 AM - Re: oil pressure gauge (Rick Holland) 5. 07:28 AM - Re: oil pressure gauge (Sterling) 6. 07:30 AM - Re: Oil pressure gauge (Rick Holland) 7. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: wing spar question (Steve Glass) 8. 09:02 AM - Re: Static Load Testing (barnstmr@aol.com) 9. 09:31 AM - Re: Static Load Testing (Hans Vander Voort) 10. 10:42 AM - Re: New to the List (Dick Navratil) 11. 11:14 AM - Wheels (Ben Ramler) 12. 11:42 AM - Re: Wheels (Phillips, Jack) 13. 02:06 PM - Re: Wheels (Kenneth M. Heide) 14. 02:16 PM - Re: Wheels (barnstmr@aol.com) 15. 02:19 PM - Re: Wheels (Sterling) 16. 02:20 PM - Re: New to the List (walt evans) 17. 02:58 PM - Re: Static Load Testing (Malcolm Morrison) 18. 03:01 PM - Re: Wheels (John and Phyllis Smoyer) 19. 04:05 PM - Re: New to the List (Galen Hutcheson) 20. 04:50 PM - Re: Wheels (Sterling) 21. 04:58 PM - had to share this amazing video (walt evans) 22. 05:49 PM - Re: had to share this amazing video (Jim Markle) 23. 07:15 PM - Re: Wheels (Catdesign) 24. 07:41 PM - Re: Wheels (Mountain Piet update too) (Greg Bacon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:16 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oil pressure gauge From: rhartwig11@juno.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com Rick, I believe William Wynne recommends non-electric "steem"gauges for oil pressure--check his manual. Rich H. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:07 AM PST US From: "Roman Bukolt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New to the List FYI- I'm probably one of the luckiest Piet builders on the list because I live 38 mi. from Brodhead and 83 mi. from Oshkosh. "Hog Heaven" Last summer at Brodhead we had 22 Pietenpols there. What an opportunity to see all the indiviual unique ways everyone resolved their ideas on how to build their plane. do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:46 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: oil pressure gauge --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" I stand corrected-! Indeed, William lists the Auto Meter 5721 and 5741 MECHANICAL oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his latest list of Corvair engine instrument recommendations. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:26 AM PST US From: Rick Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: oil pressure gauge Must depend on whether you plan on having an alternator. I called down there yesterday and they said use electrical gauges. Rick H On 1/24/06, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" < > taildrags@hotmail.com> > > I stand corrected-! Indeed, William lists the Auto Meter 5721 and 5741 > MECHANICAL oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his latest list of > Corvair engine instrument recommendations. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:21 AM PST US From: "Sterling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: oil pressure gauge --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sterling" OZcar: What happened to the snazzy VDO guages you got from me with the Corvair bounty you acquired in Junction, TX? Plata ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:12 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: oil pressure gauge > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > > I stand corrected-! Indeed, William lists the Auto Meter 5721 and 5741 > MECHANICAL oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his latest list of > Corvair engine instrument recommendations. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:18 AM PST US From: Rick Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oil pressure gauge William's manual says "The pressure lines are therefore the lines to work to avoid having in the cabin". On page 63. On 1/24/06, rhartwig11@juno.com wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com > > Rick, > I believe William Wynne recommends non-electric "steem"gauges for oil > pressure--check his manual. > Rich H. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:54 AM PST US From: "Steve Glass" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Glass" Hi Greg I just received an article via email from Doug Mundy. It is 5 pages from April 1961 Magazine about the builtup spars. I bet it is the same one. Thank you for your offer. Best regards Steve G >From: "gcardinal" >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question >Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:32:30 -0600 > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gcardinal" > >Steve, >Send me a self addressed, stamped envelope and I will send you an article >on designing built-up spars. The article was published in Sport Aviation in >the early 1960's. >My address is: > >Greg Cardinal >5236 Shoreview Ave. So. >Minneapolis, MN 55417 > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Glass" >To: >Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:43 AM >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing spar question > > >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Glass" >> >> >>Hi Everybody. >> >>I have been lurking on the list and decided to jump in and ask a question >>about the spars. >> >>I think the original design is great. I also think it makes sense to use >>modern materials such as epoxy where it makes sense. I know there is a >>builtup spar that has been designed for the wing. >> >>I have been in the yacht building business for 30 years and know that good >>wood is getting more difficult to find and more expensive. When I build >>mine I will feel more confident in building the spar with spruce caps and >>a ply web. Has anybody gone this route, compared finished weights etc. >> >>Thanks in advance. >> >>Steve G. >> >> >> >> >> >>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:14 AM PST US From: barnstmr@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: barnstmr@aol.com Mike, I see nobody ever got back to you on your test question. Are you planning to load the wing more than 1 or 2 G's? If I were going to do this, I would build a steel fixture to suspend the airframe (inverted) from above. Thats a lot of work though. I think the 75+ years of flight testing is enough for me to go without static testing. Does anyone know of a failure of a Pietenpol wing overloaded? Perhaps more likely is failures of over gross weight flight attempts with too little power. Terry L. Bowden -----Original Message----- From: Malcolm Morrison Sent: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 20:39:33 -0500 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing I?m interested in anyone?s thoughts on static load testing of the Piet wing. I would like to do a positive load test, but I?m not sure what the easiest/best way to do this would be. I think that I will need to invert the assembled airframe and suspend it on some type of stand. Then, add sand bags to the wings, distributing the weight in an elliptical pattern. The sand bags would set on planks that rest on the spars of the assembled, but uncovered wings. That?s the concept, but I?m wondering how and where to support the fuselage and wing. Should the support be under the inverted wing center section spars, or should it be on the floor of the fuselage? Any thoughts? Malcolm ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing From: Hans Vander Voort --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Tim, You could put the assembled airframe inverted (without tail) on some saw horses. Do you intend to test to failure? Or just 3G load? Since everyone builds the piet differently it would not validate all other construction options. How did you build your spar? (routed/ non-routed, 3/4"/ 1", laminated?), spruce or other wood What struts are you using, steel or aluminum and what size? Strut attachments to plans or the Piper/Aeronca fittings? What cables did you use, 1/8 or 3/32"?, Galvanized or Stainless? And there are many more valid optional variations to build a Pietenpol. None of them necessarily wrong but the test would be only valid for your option. Theoretically it would be interesting to build the weakest option and test to fail. Lets say 1/2" spruce spars, with plain mild steel fittings, and the small size aluminum struts. It would be nice to know the end result of such test. Hans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:00 AM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New to the List --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" Hey Mike I'm here in St. Paul all winter this year. I'm working hard on gettin g thae radial engine started in the next couple of weeks. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New to the List > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > > Ben-- the guy you want to talk to is Chris Bobka in MSP. He is a > world-renowned expert in Pietenpols and small > aircraft engines. > > I think Dick Navratil is from MN too....but not positve. I know he > winters in FL. > > Welcome to the list ! > > PS-- take a shop course in gas welding or if you have access to a TIG unit > use that for your metal fittings. If you can make > metal fittings that is half the battle. More than 1/2 acutally. The > woodwork is pretty easy, but the metal work and welding > are the time-consuming portions of the plane. > > PSS-- get ALL of the Tony Bingelis books from EAA on building homebuilts. > You can order them on the EAA web site. I think the > set of 4 books are something like $80. VERY much worth the money. > > Mike C. in Ohio > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:34 AM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:22 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wheels From: "Phillips, Jack" Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions: 1. Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler without brakes. Planes quit using wire wheels about the time they started using brakes 2. If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to hold a 21" wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I can't see why you would want to do that. 3. Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations: a. There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a bad enough landing to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway. I'm not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels b. Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8" Clevelands are simply not capable of exerting that kind of stopping power c. Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical 1-1/2" axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The design of the Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The axle's ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16 times) If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California called Buchanan's that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item a above - while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not design them to be stronger?). I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. I've also got pictures of Mike Cuy's that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his wheels as well. Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:07 PM PST US From: "Kenneth M. Heide" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Say Jack, I would love to see all of those photos you are talking about. Still a toss up for me.... Also maybe brakes or maybe a tail skid..... Ken Heide Fargo, ND "Phillips, Jack" wrote: Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions: Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler without brakes. Planes quit using wire wheels about the time they started using brakes If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to hold a 21 wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I cant see why you would want to do that. Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations: There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a bad enough landing to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway. Im not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8 Clevelands are simply not capable of exerting that kind of stopping power Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical 1-1/2 axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The design of the Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The axles ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16 times) If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California called Buchanans that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item a above while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not design them to be stronger?). I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. Ive also got pictures of Mike Cuys that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his wheels as well. Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right. Jack Phillips NX899JP Icarus Plummet -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:06 PM PST US From: barnstmr@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: barnstmr@aol.com Me too. Why not post them on the Matronics photo site for all to see. Terry L. Bowden -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth M. Heide Sent: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:05:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Say Jack, I would love to see all of those photos you are talking about. Still a toss up for me.... Also maybe brakes or maybe a tail skid..... Ken Heide Fargo, ND "Phillips, Jack" wrote: Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions: * Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler without brakes. Pla nes quit using wire wheels about the time they started using brakes * If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to hold a 21" wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I can't see why you would want to do that. * Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations: * There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a bad enough landi ng to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway. I'm not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels * Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8" Clevelands are simply not capable of exerting that kind of stopping power * Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical 1-1/2" axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The desi gn of the Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The axle's ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16 times) If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California called Buchanan's that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item a above - while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not design them to be stronger?). I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. I've also got pictures of Mike Cuy's that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his wheels as well. Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler -------- on new and used cars. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:19 PM PST US From: "Sterling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels If I can get some of the mess out of my hanger I'll pull my Pietenpol out into the 75 degree sunny shiney day and send anyone who in interested a picture of the Honda CB350 motorcycle wheels on my airplane. I had them powder coated red to match the color I plan on painting the fuselage, but now I wish I would have painted the wheels black for a more authentic/nostalgic look. Sterling ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth M. Heide To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:05 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Say Jack, I would love to see all of those photos you are talking about. Still a toss up for me.... Also maybe brakes or maybe a tail skid..... Ken Heide Fargo, ND "Phillips, Jack" wrote: Ben, there are about as many ways to do wire wheels as there are paint jobs on Air Campers. What you do depends on a number of questions: 1.. Are you going to have brakes? Big question. Wire wheels are much simpler without brakes. Pla nes quit using wire wheels about the time they started using brakes 2.. If you are using brakes, what kind? It takes a pretty good brake to hold a 21" wheel. Options include hydraulic discs (like Clevelands), mechanical discs (like motorocycles) mechanical discs like go-karts, and mechanical drums. I guess you could use hydraulic drums like a J-3 Cub but for the life of me I can't see why you would want to do that. 3.. Assuming you are going to do brakes, the easiest thing to do is to use existing motorcycle wheels and brakes. Those brakes are pretty big discs and are capable of stopping those big wheels. Maybe they might stop them too well, causing a nose-over. With motorcycle wheels there are several considerations: 1.. There has been considerable discussion about whether motorcycle wheels are strong enough to withstand side loads in a crosswind landing. I used to be in that camp, but have come to the realization that if you are making a bad enough landi ng to fold the wheel, something else is likely to get damaged anyway. I'm not sure there is a single documented case of a motorcycle wheel failing on landing on a Pietenpol, and there are a lot flying with those types of wheels 2.. Motorcycle brakes are actually capable of stopping a thousand pounds of Air Camper far quicker than you really want to. If you get on the brakes hard enough, it might nose over. My 8" Clevelands are simply not capable of exerting that kind of stopping power 3.. Motorcycle wheels typically have much smaller bearings than the typical 1-1/2" axle of a Pietenpol. I consider myself somewhat of an authority on Pietenpol axles since I broke one. The desi gn of the Pietenpol undercarriage puts really substantial loads on the axle. The axle's ability to withstand those loads is a function of the 4th power of the diameter, so decreasing the diameter a little decreases the strength a lot (cutting the diameter in half increases the stress by 16 times) If you are not using motorcycle wheels, you will have to make your own hubs and have the rims laced to your hubs with spokes. There is an outfit in California called Buchanan's that nearly everybody uses for that. If you make your own hubs, the shape of the hub will likely be determined by whatever kind of brake you are using. I designed my own hubs to accomodate the Cleveland brakes I bought on ebay, then had the hubs machined out of a solid billet of aluminum by a local machine shop. Mike Cuy made his hubs simpler, and used mechanical go-kart brakes. If you are going to the trouble to make your own hubs, you might as well make them wider to help the wheels resist side loading (see item a above - while it might not be an issue, if you are making new ones why not design them to be stronger?). I can send you pictures offline if you want to see my wheels. I've also got pictures of Mike Cuy's that I can send. Greg Cardinal built much simpler wheels since his Piet has a tailskid and no brakes. I might have some pics of his wheels as well. Put a lot of thought into it and come up with what suits you best. There are many ways to do it, and most of them are right. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:53 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New to the List Ben, Welcome. A Pietenpol would be perfect. go to this site to find where most of the Piets are. You can even add yourself to the list. http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:35 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: New to the List Hello Pietenpol'ers, Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is Ben Ramler. I live over here in Granite Falls, MN. I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot License. Since 1996 my dad has owned plans to build an Aircramper. We bought these plans when we went down to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and at the time I was a Spohmore in High School. I'm now 25 and thinking about building an airplane. I know that there is a large following of you people here in the upper Midwest. What I'd like to ask you all is this. Would the aircamper be a good first time projecct. In case you want to know who my dad is His name is Jerry Ramler. How of you are in Minnesota? Thanks & Take Care, Ben Ramler Granite Falls. Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:07 PM PST US From: "Malcolm Morrison" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Malcolm Morrison" Hans, I have indeed made changes from the plans and that is the driving motivation for wanting to perform the static load test. I have enlarged the center section to 47" and tilted the cabanes out at the top so that they still attach to the ends of the center section spars. The front spar attach hardware is basically the same as called for on the 3-piece wing plans, but the rear spar attach hardware is a pivot joint. This is similar to other designs to allow the wing to fold back. The other change is that the lift struts will form a 'V', attaching to the fuselage at the rear lift strut mount location. The steel strap that connects the two lift struts across the fuselage has been doubled. I'm looking at an 1100 lb, 3g load, or 3300 lb. Assuming an elliptical lift distribution the center section would lift about 600lb and each wing panel would lift about 1300lb. Most of the lift force of the panels would be transmitted to the lift struts due to the lift distribution around the point where the struts attach to the wings. The attach points (center section to panels) would bare little load. The part I'm pondering is where to suspend the airframe. I could build a simple, strong box and rest the center section spars on it (inverted). Or I could build an elaborate stand to rest the ash fuselage cross member on, hanging all the weight on the fuselage/lift strut attach point. I'm not sure which is correct. On the other hand, I'm using proven spar design, proven front spar attach design, beefy pivot as used on other designs, aircraft hardware throughout. So, what am I really testing or expecting to see? Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander Voort Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Tim, You could put the assembled airframe inverted (without tail) on some saw horses. Do you intend to test to failure? Or just 3G load? Since everyone builds the piet differently it would not validate all other construction options. How did you build your spar? (routed/ non-routed, 3/4"/ 1", laminated?), spruce or other wood What struts are you using, steel or aluminum and what size? Strut attachments to plans or the Piper/Aeronca fittings? What cables did you use, 1/8 or 3/32"?, Galvanized or Stainless? And there are many more valid optional variations to build a Pietenpol. None of them necessarily wrong but the test would be only valid for your option. Theoretically it would be interesting to build the weakest option and test to fail. Lets say 1/2" spruce spars, with plain mild steel fittings, and the small size aluminum struts. It would be nice to know the end result of such test. Hans ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:43 PM PST US From: "John and Phyllis Smoyer" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Sterling: I'd definitely be interested in seeing your wheel pix. If you are taking new photos, would you mind taking one that shoes how wide the hubs are, and how the brakes are installed. Thanks, John S ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:53 PM PST US From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New to the List --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Hi Ben, welcome to the wonderful world of aircraft building. You are the same age I was in 1973, just fresh out of the Army (Vietnam came to a screeching hault so no use in staying in the Army, and within two months I was taking flying lessons. They didn't have the Sport lic then, so I had to go the Private route. Never regretted learning to fly though. You will love the Piet in both the building phase and in the flying phase. Once you are hooked on flying you will never be the same again. Have fun with your project, stay excited about it, get help when needed and you will have a wonderful time. Best wishes and please feel free to ask any questions you may have. Doc (H) Do Not Archive > > > Hello Pietenpol'ers, > > Hows everyone doing today? I'm good. My name is > Ben Ramler. I live over here in Granite Falls, MN. > I'm thinking about getting my Sport Pilot License. > Since 1996 my dad has owned plans to build an > Aircramper. We bought these plans when we went down > to Austin, MN to see Orrin Hoopman and at the time I > was a Spohmore in High School. I'm now 25 and > thinking about building an airplane. I know that > there is a large following of you people here in the > upper Midwest. What I'd like to ask you all is this. > Would the aircamper be a good first time projecct. > In case you want to know who my dad is His name is > Jerry Ramler. How of you are in Minnesota? > > > Thanks & Take Care, > > Ben Ramler > Granite Falls. > > > > Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get > quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:16 PM PST US From: "Sterling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels John: I'll try and wheel the Piet out this weekend. I came up with a novel way for doing my brakes. I'm confident the Honda wheels will work fine and I think the gossip about spokes/wheels going south is urban legend. Anyway, a good pilot can land one of these without side loading the wheels and putting undo stress on the spokes and hub. Sterling Brooks 5TA6, San Antonio Sectional ----- Original Message ----- From: John and Phyllis Smoyer To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Sterling: I'd definitely be interested in seeing your wheel pix. If you are taking new photos, would you mind taking one that shoes how wide the hubs are, and how the brakes are installed. Thanks, John S ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:28 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: had to share this amazing video Check it out! http://www.staliteaviation.com/gtuf/bin/sky_diamond.wmv walt evans NX140DL do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:12 PM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: had to share this amazing video That is just about one of the most incredible sights I've EVER seen..... UNBELIEVABLE!!! WOW ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: piet list Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:58 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: had to share this amazing video Check it out! http://www.staliteaviation.com/gtuf/bin/sky_diamond.wmv walt evans NX140DL do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:51 PM PST US From: "Catdesign" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Go here to find the definitive article on building wire wheels, thank to Jim for putting these on the web. http://mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=3D56 Also look in his building log for pictures of his wheels built to these plans http://mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=3D803&PlaneID=3D52&FName=3DJim&LName=3DMarkle&PlaneName=3DAir%20Camper Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:27 PM PST US From: Greg Bacon Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels (Mountain Piet update too) Ben, To see an excellent example of wire wheels with custom made hubs and mechanical disc brakes go to http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html. You will also see other great photos of John Dilatush's "Mountain Piet", of which I am the current guardian. As a side note for those of you who know me and the story of John's Mountain Piet, I am very close to getting back to rebuilding the left wing panel, etc. We finished (95% anyway) and moved into our house last Fall. Yes, I have a honey-do list as long as my arm. I've kept a charge on Mtn Piet's battery and run her up every other month for about 10 minutes to keep the engine lubed, move fresh gas in the lines, and to stir up the coolant. For what it's worth -- On the subject of brakes, my preference is to have them and to operate them individually. Differential breaking is a really nice thing to have in a tail dragger. It gives very good taxi control. I had a Cherokee 140 with a single hand brake. As I applied pressure to the brake, it affected both wheels simultaneously. Turning that plane around took a fairly large area (as compared to a plane with differential braking). Having breaks also allows one to perform run-up checks easily. The great thing about building a piet is that you get to build the system you prefer. I highly recommend going to the Brodhead fly-in to see the variety of piet configurations. Bring a camera! Greg Bacon Missouri ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Ramler To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 1:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels Thanks again to all who applied. Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways, Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that? Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much! thanks again & Take Care, Ben Ramler