Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:42 AM - Re: Wheels (Jim Markle)
2. 06:14 AM - wire wheels (Michael D Cuy)
3. 08:25 AM - 5 gal can mess (Douwe Blumberg)
4. 08:43 AM - tint for dope? (Douwe Blumberg)
5. 08:58 AM - Re: 5 gal can mess (Michael D Cuy)
6. 09:12 AM - Re: 5 gal can mess (Dick Navratil)
7. 09:27 AM - Re: tint for dope? (Dick Navratil)
8. 09:31 AM - Re: Static Load Testing (Hans Vander Voort)
9. 10:12 AM - The rats ate my glue. (Ken Chambers)
10. 12:26 PM - Re: The rats ate my glue. (Joe Krzes)
11. 01:15 PM - part A&B (Michael D Cuy)
12. 02:35 PM - Re: The rats ate my glue. (Rcaprd@aol.com)
13. 03:27 PM - Re: 5 gal can mess (Dennis Engelkenjohn)
14. 04:24 PM - Re: Wheels (John and Phyllis Smoyer)
15. 05:03 PM - Re: The rats ate my glue. (Sterling)
16. 06:11 PM - Re: 5 gal can mess (dmott9@aol.com)
17. 07:37 PM - Rat clarification (ate my glue follow up...) (Sterling)
18. 07:44 PM - Re: Static Load Testing (Malcolm Morrison)
Message 1
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Thanks Chris.
I just wish I could claim even a small part of what those pictures show. I've
shamelessly copied ideas from Howard Henderson, ideas forwarded/published by Grant
MaClaren, stuff that Cuy, Phillips, Corbett and many others came up with.
My project would not be worth the effort if it wasn't for the smarts of a lot
of craftsmen out there.
And I also love the idea of wire wheels and agree with Sterling, black wire wheels
are a bit more authentic. I too wondered about hub width and whether or not
"narrow" motorcycle hubs might be more prone to collapse. Then I realized,
if I have a choice, why not go wider? It was a fairly costly process (scans
of my wheel and wheel accessories invoices are on mykitplane.com) but to me, worth
it. It's really easy to spend a lot of time and energy sweating the small
stuff when you can just play it safe in some of these decisions. Ahh, choices
choices.
I just finished powdercoating the remainder of the metal fittings (yeah, there
will probably be a few pieces I've missed) and can now focus on the instrument
panel. It will also reflect neat things I've seen others do. For the panel,
I'm copying some simple inlay (purfling) ideas from a Luthier I saw on the Discovery
Channel.
I don't know about anyone else but my mind and heart have been wandering up to
Brodhead a LOT lately... The field is probably covered with snow right now but
not in my mind...
JM
----- Original Message -----
From: Catdesign
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Go here to find the definitive article on building wire wheels, thank to Jim
for putting these on the web.
http://mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=3D56
Also look in his building log for pictures of his wheels built to these plans
http://mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=3D803&PlaneID=3D52&FName=3DJim&LName=3DMarkle&PlaneName=3DAir%20Camper
Chris Tracy
Sacramento, Ca
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Ramler
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:14 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Thanks again to all who applied.
Sorry about the last msg I posted. sometimes my fingers don't always communicate
with my brain. What I was going to say was that I had at some point started
a pietenpol Aircamper fuselge (bad spelling). If anyone would like to see
photos let me know and I will be glad to post it on the photo share page. Anyways,
Now my question. I was wonder how those of you with the wire wheels did that?
Was that done professionally? If so where? Or is that something that was
done by plans? Any help would be appreciated very much!
thanks again & Take Care,
Ben Ramler
Message 2
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
JIm-- please don't get carried away by accusing a guy like me for posessing
smarts:)) I borrowed ideas from those who
had gone before me as well. That is part of the luxury of this group and
then you'll get to pass along your knowledge to
those who are yet in the wings coming up after you.
I too believe that the wire wheels are well worth the expense as it adds so
much to the antique look of the Air Camper
and is the absolute center of attention at fly-in's and around the
airport. Wire wheels are also known to be chick magnets,
although the demographic that they attract most often produces little old
ladies with their husbands......
Mike C.
do not archive
Message 3
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Hey guys,
I just picked up a bunch of dope in five gallon cans. I didn't consider however,
how I was going to get the stuff out into smaller containers for mixing/brushing/sraying
without making a huge mess and wasting this expensive stuff!
I think they design these things to not pour, it really goes all over the place
except into the carefully positioned funnel underneath.
I was looking for a pump like used for resins, but can't find any for five gallon
cans. Or maybe a screw on spout?
thoughts?
Douwe
Message 4
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Anybody have any ideas of what kind of tint would be safe to add to dope to help
me get the fill coats on evenly?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 5 gal can mess |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Douwe-- I used a clean metal coffee can to 'dip and transfer'.
Mike
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 5 gal can mess |
There is a drum pump available that will screw into a variety of containers. You
can order from Horizon Pool Supply 1-800-969-0454 price is $19.95.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:23 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 5 gal can mess
Hey guys,
I just picked up a bunch of dope in five gallon cans. I didn't consider however,
how I was going to get the stuff out into smaller containers for mixing/brushing/sraying
without making a huge mess and wasting this expensive stuff!
I think they design these things to not pour, it really goes all over the place
except into the carefully positioned funnel underneath.
I was looking for a pump like used for resins, but can't find any for five gallon
cans. Or maybe a screw on spout?
thoughts?
Douwe
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: tint for dope? |
Hi again Douwe
Stits is currently working on a special order for my new project. I asked them
for Poly Brush and Poly Tone with a Mahogany stain added along with UV filter.
That will be my finished surface. I don't know what brand of stain they are
using, but you could try a test sample with wood stain.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: tint for dope?
Anybody have any ideas of what kind of tint would be safe to add to dope to help
me get the fill coats on evenly?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Static Load Testing |
Malcolm
I fail to see a elaborate test set up.
Just build up the airframe up side down on some saw horses, see attached
pdf.
Note at 3300 Lbs you need some sturdy ones
3 G's is good load test, if you do not fly to extremes you should never see
this load.
A steep turn ,60 degree from horizontal is 2 G's.
Most of us do not go beyond a gentle 30 degree turn. (1.3 G)
What to look for during test?
Well if it breaks, you are back to the drawing board.
If it does not break: remember that all metals stretch before break, so
measure all metal parts before and after the test.
If some thing is longer after the load test, it is very close to breaking.
Also check elongation of bolt holes both in wood and metal.
And check for deformation / compression in wood frame.
Cracks in welding , paint your welded steel white with a thin coat before
test, cracks show easier
cracks in or near glue joints.
Just my thoughts
Hans
(See attached file: load test.pdf)
"Malcolm
Morrison"
<morrisons5@adelp To
hia.net> <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent by: cc
owner-pietenpol-l
ist-server@matron Subject
ics.com RE: Pietenpol-List: Static Load
Testing
01/24/2006 04:59
PM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list@ma
tronics.com
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Malcolm Morrison"
<morrisons5@adelphia.net>
Hans,
I have indeed made changes from the plans and that is the driving
motivation
for wanting to perform the static load test. I have enlarged the center
section to 47" and tilted the cabanes out at the top so that they still
attach to the ends of the center section spars. The front spar attach
hardware is basically the same as called for on the 3-piece wing plans, but
the rear spar attach hardware is a pivot joint. This is similar to other
designs to allow the wing to fold back. The other change is that the lift
struts will form a 'V', attaching to the fuselage at the rear lift strut
mount location. The steel strap that connects the two lift struts across
the fuselage has been doubled.
I'm looking at an 1100 lb, 3g load, or 3300 lb. Assuming an elliptical
lift
distribution the center section would lift about 600lb and each wing panel
would lift about 1300lb. Most of the lift force of the panels would be
transmitted to the lift struts due to the lift distribution around the
point
where the struts attach to the wings. The attach points (center section to
panels) would bare little load.
The part I'm pondering is where to suspend the airframe. I could build a
simple, strong box and rest the center section spars on it (inverted). Or
I
could build an elaborate stand to rest the ash fuselage cross member on,
hanging all the weight on the fuselage/lift strut attach point. I'm not
sure which is correct.
On the other hand, I'm using proven spar design, proven front spar attach
design, beefy pivot as used on other designs, aircraft hardware throughout.
So, what am I really testing or expecting to see?
Malcolm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander
Voort
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Static Load Testing
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort
<hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com>
Tim,
You could put the assembled airframe inverted (without tail) on some saw
horses.
Do you intend to test to failure?
Or just 3G load?
Since everyone builds the piet differently it would not validate all other
construction options.
How did you build your spar? (routed/ non-routed, 3/4"/ 1", laminated?),
spruce or other wood
What struts are you using, steel or aluminum and what size?
Strut attachments to plans or the Piper/Aeronca fittings?
What cables did you use, 1/8 or 3/32"?, Galvanized or Stainless?
And there are many more valid optional variations to build a Pietenpol.
None of them necessarily wrong but the test would be only valid for your
option.
Theoretically it would be interesting to build the weakest option and test
to fail.
Lets say 1/2" spruce spars, with plain mild steel fittings, and the small
size aluminum struts.
It would be nice to know the end result of such test.
Hans
Message 9
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| Subject: | The rats ate my glue. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Chambers" <ken@prototype-ideas.com>
For the second time since I moved into this old house, the rats have dragged
the T-88 Part B Hardener away and chewed up the bottle. I thought I had them
all killed off and the holes patched up, but there must be a couple coming
through somewhere.
And they must really love the stuff. Anyone else had any problems with this?
Ken, working on the house and moving slowly on the Piet in Austin, Texas
Message 10
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| Subject: | The rats ate my glue. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes@hotmail.com>
I suggest giving them part A too. Might solve the problem.
do not archive
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Chambers"
><ken@prototype-ideas.com>
>
>
>For the second time since I moved into this old house, the rats have
>dragged
>the T-88 Part B Hardener away and chewed up the bottle. I thought I had
>them
>all killed off and the holes patched up, but there must be a couple coming
>through somewhere.
Message 11
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Joe Krzes--that was hilarious. I say feed em' some Decon too.
Mike
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: The rats ate my glue. |
In a message dated 1/25/2006 2:27:47 PM Central Standard Time,
jkrzes@hotmail.com writes:
I suggest giving them part A too. Might solve the problem.
Poor ol' rats wake up with their faces glued together !! :)
Do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 5 gal can mess |
If you can unscrew the plug, they sell at auto parts stores a valve stem with threads
and two nuts. Just drill a hole and put the stem in and tighten the nuts.
Then make a spout of some sort, threaded pipe like used in a lamp and two nuts
and a piece of tubing hose clamped onto it. Then pressurize the drum lightly.
Very lightly and it should come out. Just be ready to push in the valve to
release the pressure to stop the flow. Very light pressure!
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:23 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 5 gal can mess
Hey guys,
I just picked up a bunch of dope in five gallon cans. I didn't consider however,
how I was going to get the stuff out into smaller containers for mixing/brushing/sraying
without making a huge mess and wasting this expensive stuff!
I think they design these things to not pour, it really goes all over the place
except into the carefully positioned funnel underneath.
I was looking for a pump like used for resins, but can't find any for five gallon
cans. Or maybe a screw on spout?
thoughts?
Douwe
Message 14
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Thanks, Sterling. Looking forward to your pix.
John S.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: The rats ate my glue. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sterling" <sterling@pgrb.com>
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Joe:
I have a farm and I raise rats. Mostly large rats, but a few pack rats that
are notorious for eating wires, hydraulic lines, rubber hoses, tractors...
What works pretty well for me is Bar Bait... But you have to be careful to
keep it out of the reach of dogs and cats. Bar Bait can be purchased at most
famr stores. If and when I see rats during daylight, my Remington ADL 22-250
is extraordinarily effective, yet a lot more expensive than Bar Bait. I
don't recommend the Remington if you have neighbors. I live in Texas and
most folks down here have Remingtons, even my florist has a gun...
Good luck with the rats. I'm very confident my methods for eradication will
serve you well.
(I would like to appologize in advance to any on the list who are gun
control advocates... We were raised with guns down here and it's in our
blood...;)
Sterling Brooks
Knot-2-Shabby Airport/farm & Texas Longhorn Cattle Ranch
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: The rats ate my glue.
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Joe Krzes" <jkrzes@hotmail.com>
>
> I suggest giving them part A too. Might solve the problem.
>
> do not archive
>
>
>>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Chambers"
>><ken@prototype-ideas.com>
>>
>>
>>For the second time since I moved into this old house, the rats have
>>dragged
>>the T-88 Part B Hardener away and chewed up the bottle. I thought I had
>>them
>>all killed off and the holes patched up, but there must be a couple coming
>>through somewhere.
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 5 gal can mess |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dmott9@aol.com
How about finding one of those larger plunger type pumps, like the kind
that are on GO-JO tubs. Maybe
someone could come up with some building plans for building one. They
are nothing more than some
tubing, spring and some check valves.
-dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
Sent: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:23:15 -0500
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 5 gal can mess
Hey guys,
I just picked up a bunch of dope in five gallon cans. I didn't
consider however, how I was going to get the stuff out into smaller
containers for mixing/brushing/sraying without making a huge mess and
wasting this expensive stuff!
I think they design these things to not pour, it really goes all over
the place except into the carefully positioned funnel underneath.
I was looking for a pump like used for resins, but can't find any for
five gallon cans. Or maybe a screw on spout?
thoughts?
Douwe
Message 17
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| Subject: | Rat clarification (ate my glue follow up...) |
DO NOT ARCHIVE
I don't raise rats for a living (as my earlier post seemed to suggest) they are
a bi-product of living on a farm that has grain crops.
For the PETA people who might be reading this -- sorry, but rats are rodents and
rodents are targets on this farm.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 18
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| Subject: | Static Load Testing |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Malcolm Morrison" <morrisons5@adelphia.net>
Rich, Hans
I am an engineer, but not the kind that counts. I work in software and
systems, not aerodynamics or structures. So, please take that into account
when you consider any structural assumptions that I make.
I ran some numbers on the forces on a Piet wing today and this is what I
came up with. Assuming an 1100 lb airplane at 3 Gs, or 3300 lbs, and a
rectangular wing exhibiting an elliptical lift distribution. A plans built
center section would provide 293 lbs of lift, and each wing panel would
provide 1503.5 lbs of lift. The pull force on the cabanes from the center
section would be 146.5 for each side. With 2 cabanes on each side you could
divide this number in half for 73.25 lbs on each cabane if you assume that
the front and rear cabanes each receive the same force. The force on the
outer panel is a little more complex since the unsupported wing tip induces
a torque around the lift strut - wing attach point. The result of this is
an additional 248 lbs of upward pull on each cabane pair, for a total of
394.5 lbs This leaves 1255.5 lbs lifting force for each wing panel at the
lift strut attach points.
My modification of making a 4 foot center section will have very little
affect on these forces. The wider center section has more lifting force
than the plans version, but the shorter wing panels induce less torque, and
less additional upward force on the cabanes. The cabane struts will be
subject to 401 lbs pull on each pair (a 2% increase over plans), and the
lift struts will have a 1249 lbs pull (0.4% decrease).
These forces affect the fuselage structure in two ways. First, the wing
center section is trying to pull itself upward, off the fuselage. The
cabane struts, wires, attach points, and fuselage structure work against
this pull, which is 800 lbs. To test this structure I would need to support
the fuselage upside down from points where the forces are exerted on the
fuselage structure. This could be the bottom of the cabane mounts, the
cockpit floor, and possible the firewall. I don't think that tail should be
supported since The other force comes from the wing panels pulling upward
at 1255.5 lbs each. This results in an outward pull at the fuselage - lift
strut attach point of 2188 lbs each (only 1724 lbs each on the modified
version due to the shorter panels). To test this I could rest the inverted
center section on a box and load the wing panels appropriately. I have
doubled size of the steel strap since I'm using a 'V' strut arrangement and
there is only one strap. I will keep the cross strap attached to the ash
cross member with additional short straps.
Anybody agree, disagree with these numbers or thoughts ;-)
Malcolm
http://users.adelphia.net/~morrisons5/piet.html
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