Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:08 AM - Skype users? (Jack T. Textor)
2. 05:02 AM - Tools (TBYH@aol.com)
3. 06:06 AM - Clif Dawson's wood gear leg sequence photos (Michael D Cuy)
4. 06:55 AM - Gussets and Sanding (Glenn Thomas)
5. 07:10 AM - Re: Gussets and Sanding (Hans Vander Voort)
6. 07:54 AM - Re: Gussets and Sanding (Bill Church)
7. 07:58 AM - Re: Gussets and Sanding (gcardinal)
8. 08:19 AM - Re: Gussets and Sanding (Galen Hutcheson)
9. 08:27 AM - Re: Gussets and Sanding (Glenn Thomas)
10. 08:58 AM - a test for glue joints and sanding (Michael D Cuy)
11. 09:02 AM - aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 (Michael D Cuy)
12. 09:34 AM - Re: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 (Ken)
13. 09:58 AM - A-65 value (Oscar Zuniga)
14. 10:06 AM - Re: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 (Michael D Cuy)
15. 10:58 AM - Re: A-65 value (Phillips, Jack)
16. 05:41 PM - Re: Gussets and Sanding (Catdesign)
17. 06:18 PM - Re: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 (Dick Navratil)
18. 06:49 PM - Re: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 (Steve)
19. 07:23 PM - bending Lexan (Oscar Zuniga)
Message 1
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Are there any Pieter's out there using Skype (voice over Internet)? Was
wondering if there would be any interest for a weekly or monthly
conference call to assist other builders. I discovered it last weekend
and it's pretty neat stuff and free!
Jack Textor
Des Moines
Message 2
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I used my great-grandfather's draw knife for shaping the landing gear struts
for my Piet. My dad gave it to me about a year ago -- I noticed it has 1836
stamped/engraved in the blade. It is in excellent condition although obviously
used quite a bit. While working with it I wondered what g-grampa would think
about building an airplane! And I wondered what he would think about airplanes
period! Was very satisfying to use that tool. Anyway, a good sharp draw knife
works very nicely, even on white ash landing gear struts -- practice on some
scrap lumber -- you have to be aware of the direction of the grain and you must
have your work secured tightly. Be very careful!
While I was working on the elevators last night I was thinking that another
tool that I consider indispensable is a good shop vac. You have to keep your
work area clean -- and you do not want sawdust getting into glue joints. I use
my vac every time I'm getting ready to glue parts together -- I literally
vacuum the pieces to make sure there's no dust on the surfaces.
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
Message 3
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| Subject: | Clif Dawson's wood gear leg sequence photos |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Cliff--your web pages are just great and I enjoyed seeing how you developed
your teardrop/streamlined shape
on your wood landing gear legs. Excellent workmanship from what you show
in your photos as well along with
the personal touches of the leather stick grips and rudder bar
wraps. Gives a new meaning to the word wrap.
I really enjoy seeing the new generation of Pietenpol builders and how
every successive few batches of planes have
better workmanship and more innovative ideas. Looks great, less filling.
Mike C.
http://www.clifdawson.ca/Pietenpol4.html
Message 4
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| Subject: | Gussets and Sanding |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
I was talking with someone the other day who said not to sand members being joined
by gussets because the dust clogs the pores of the woods and prevents glue
from penetrating. Tony Bingelis says you MUST file everything being joined to
level all members in the joint. OK to sand/file and use a tack cloth to extract
sawdust? Clean with mineral spirits and let dry? Do either leave a residue
that would inhibit a good strong joint?
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26417#26417
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Gussets and Sanding |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com>
Glenn,
I was told a lot of the same.
But I suggest you find a method that works for you and just try it.
Make some test pieces out of scrap, let the glue cure and then break it.
I did, and all cases the wood broke not the glue joint.
I used T 88 epoxy.
It is great confidence builder.
Keep building
Hans
Message 6
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| Subject: | Gussets and Sanding |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Glenn,
I think what you want to avoid are two things:
1. Sawdust on the surface of the wood being bonded, which has the
potential to reduce the strength of the bond.
2. Glazed wood surface caused by sanding with worn-out fine sandpaper.
Wood in the as-sawn (or planed) condition is excellent for bonding, but
if two surfaces are uneven sometimes a bit of sanding is necessary to
level the playing field. In those situations, use a medium to coarse
sandpaper, and as you say, wipe with a tack rag or mineral spirits (same
thing).
One other thing to do in your preparation for glue-up is to sand the
face of the plywood that will be bonded (using a medium grit sandpaper).
I used a cross-the-grain sanding direction for maximum scratch-up
potential. The manufacturing process for plywood uses heat and pressure,
which results in a sort of glaze on the face of the plywood, which
inhibits absorption of the glue into the fibers of the plywood. Of
course, it's much easier to sand the entire back side of the sheet of
plywood before you cut it into hundreds and hundreds of little tiny hard
to handle gussets. Or you could do what I did, and cut out all those
hundreds of tiny little gussets before sanding the back of the sheet,
even though you knew that you were supposed to sand the %$#&@* back of
the $#%&@ plywood!
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Thomas
Sent: April 4, 2006 10:16 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gussets and Sanding
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas"
--> <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
I was talking with someone the other day who said not to sand members
being joined by gussets because the dust clogs the pores of the woods
and prevents glue from penetrating. Tony Bingelis says you MUST file
everything being joined to level all members in the joint. OK to
sand/file and use a tack cloth to extract sawdust? Clean with mineral
spirits and let dry? Do either leave a residue that would inhibit a
good strong joint?
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26417#26417
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Gussets and Sanding |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
Use a scraper instead of sanding.
I did some glue tests using Aerolite and birch ply that had been neither
scraped nor sanded. None of them failed at the Aerolite glue joint.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:46 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gussets and Sanding
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas"
> <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
>
> I was talking with someone the other day who said not to sand members
> being joined by gussets because the dust clogs the pores of the woods and
> prevents glue from penetrating. Tony Bingelis says you MUST file
> everything being joined to level all members in the joint. OK to
> sand/file and use a tack cloth to extract sawdust? Clean with mineral
> spirits and let dry? Do either leave a residue that would inhibit a good
> strong joint?
>
> --------
> Glenn Thomas
> N?????
> http://www.flyingwood.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26417#26417
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Gussets and Sanding |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
I sanded my joints and in all of test pieces, the wood
broke and not the glue/wood interface. I tested them
against joints that had been sawn and not sanded and
found that they all broke about the same. I used T-88
glue and all the test pieces were subjected to the
same evironmental conditions. Others may have found
different results, so take this for what it is worth.
Doc (H)
--- Glenn Thomas <glennthomas@flyingwood.com> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas"
> <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
>
> I was talking with someone the other day who said
> not to sand members being joined by gussets because
> the dust clogs the pores of the woods and prevents
> glue from penetrating. Tony Bingelis says you MUST
> file everything being joined to level all members in
> the joint. OK to sand/file and use a tack cloth to
> extract sawdust? Clean with mineral spirits and let
> dry? Do either leave a residue that would inhibit a
> good strong joint?
>
> --------
> Glenn Thomas
> N?????
> http://www.flyingwood.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26417#26417
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Gussets and Sanding |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
Good info. I wondered about the gussets too. They get handled quite a bit during
the cutting and edge-sanding process and thought they could benefit from cleaning/roughening
due to their smoothness and picking up oils from skin during
handling. I think I'll break a couple to see how they hold up. That IS a good
confidence builder. The build and break approach should teach me something
about strength.
I noticed (building models) that if you apply too much force with the tack rag
that stickiness from the rag can end up on the surface you're cleaning. I've
used mineral spirits on a hardwood floor I put in and it didn't seem to leave
anything behind and you could see traces of sawdust on the rag even though the
floor seemed clean to the naked eye and to the touch. Was curious if mineral
spirits completely evaporates or leaves any kind of oil behind.
Thanks
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26440#26440
Message 10
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| Subject: | a test for glue joints and sanding |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Glenn-- I sanded nearly 100% of my glue joints--generally a rougher paper
too and then just blew or vacummed off the dust
before gluing with T-88. After 450 hours of flying no joint that I'm
aware of has come undone.
Whatever method you use just do some test pieces now and then (the astute
FAA inspector or DAR might ask to see some test
pieces during your inspection) by gluing some spruce to plywood with some
ply overlapping by an inch or two then smash in a vise.
If the wood fails your glue joints are just fine. (this works for any
type of wood glued to any other or same kind of wood)
Mike C.
Message 11
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| Subject: | aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 |
As a side note, I found that if you need to glue alum. sheet to alum sheet.
that if you sand the glue surfaces with 80 or 100 grit, clean with
a solvent and glue, you get a fantastic glue joint.
When I bent up my Lexan windshields (bowed them into position) and secured
them to my three brackets they distorted the 2024-T3 aluminum
instrument panel covers !!! I removed the windshields and glued three
discs of aluminum sheet (about 2.5" dia) to the underside of the curved
alum. cockpit/inst. panel covers, let cure and wha-la, no more distortion
of the surface when I re-attached the windshields.
This saved some riveting where I normally would have had some unwanted rivets.
Mike C.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ken <av8orken@adelphia.net>
What type/brand glue did you use?
Ken
Michael D Cuy wrote:
>
> As a side note, I found that if you need to glue alum. sheet to alum
> sheet. that if you sand the glue surfaces with 80 or 100 grit, clean with
>
> a solvent and glue, you get a fantastic glue joint.
>
> When I bent up my Lexan windshields (bowed them into position) and
> secured them to my three brackets they distorted the 2024-T3 aluminum
>
> instrument panel covers !!! I removed the windshields and glued three
> discs of aluminum sheet (about 2.5" dia) to the /underside /of the curved
>
> alum. cockpit/inst. panel covers, let cure and wha-la, no more
> distortion of the surface when I re-attached the windshields.
>
> This saved some riveting where I normally would have had some unwanted
> rivets.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 13
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Question for you folks. What do you think would be the cost/value of a
clean A-65 with a couple of hundred hours SMOH, good compression, newer
Slick mags and harnesses, Stromberg carb, exhaust stacks, wood prop, and
hub? Not the one on 41CC; this is another engine that is for sale, well
stored, taken off a flying Champ, and I'm wondering what it might be worth.
Thanks for any ideas.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
opps...sorry Ken....I used T-88 on the wood and aluminum.
Mike C.
Message 15
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
Good question, Oscar.
Just looking at the accessories that go along with this engine, if you
had to buy them separately, the costs would be something like:
Magnetos $800
Prop Hub $500
Propeller $1,200 (assuming certified, since it came off a Champ)
Exhaust stacks $400
You're up to close to $3,000 right there
I paid $1500 for my A65 as a run-out core, and then put another $5500 in
new parts into it. I ended up with a zero SMOH engine with new
cylinders, pistons, camshaft, magnetos, valve lifters, an overhauled
crankshaft and gears, and an overhauled crankcase. Total price $7,000
so that should probably be your top-end price. That price did NOT
include the prop or the prop hub, or the exhaust system.
Jack Phillips
Hoping to fly NX899JP this evening if the wind will calm some
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
Zuniga
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 12:58 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65 value
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga"
<taildrags@hotmail.com>
Question for you folks. What do you think would be the cost/value of a
clean A-65 with a couple of hundred hours SMOH, good compression, newer
Slick mags and harnesses, Stromberg carb, exhaust stacks, wood prop, and
hub? Not the one on 41CC; this is another engine that is for sale, well
stored, taken off a flying Champ, and I'm wondering what it might be
worth.
Thanks for any ideas.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Gussets and Sanding |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Catdesign" <catdesign@intergate.com>
I've used both birch and Mahogany plywood and I feel there is no need to
sand either, especially the Mahogany. If there was a glazed surface, ive
necer seen one on anything thicker then 1/32 ply,I would scuff it very very
lightly with 150 sandpaper. I recall reading an
article about testing sanded joints vs. non-sanded joints in plywood.
But I cant find this article. Anyone else remember this? All my test
samples on glued plywood the wood ripped in half. Not the T-88 glue
joint.
I sand my spruce joints with 50 to 80 grit sandpaper then vacuumed the
joint to suck out any dust. T-88 Glue samples tested to destruction
have proved this method to fail the wood not the glue joint. I think
sanding with fine sandpaper is the problem. Epoxy by nature needs some
tooth to grab hold of and does not penetrate deeply into the pores.
Remember epoxy can glue metal to metal, as long as it has some tooth to
grab hold of.
Chris Tracy
Sacramento, Ca
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 |
Hi Mike
I just want to add to your windshield point. If you have a large enough oven and
an understanding wife, you can heat the lexan and bend it to shape. Heat at
about 250 F for about 10-15 min and it becomes soft. Lay it on template the
shape of your bridge deck and let cool. Of course, run test pieces for time
and lay piece on good, clean, flat surface while baking. I didn't notice much
smell.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael D Cuy
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 11:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88
As a side note, I found that if you need to glue alum. sheet to alum sheet. that
if you sand the glue surfaces with 80 or 100 grit, clean with
a solvent and glue, you get a fantastic glue joint.
When I bent up my Lexan windshields (bowed them into position) and secured them
to my three brackets they distorted the 2024-T3 aluminum
instrument panel covers !!! I removed the windshields and glued three discs
of aluminum sheet (about 2.5" dia) to the underside of the curved
alum. cockpit/inst. panel covers, let cure and wha-la, no more distortion of
the surface when I re-attached the windshields.
This saved some riveting where I normally would have had some unwanted rivets.
Mike C.
Message 18
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| Subject: | aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88 |
Hi
The Gougeon book on boat construction "West Epoxy Guys" recommends sanding
the aluminium while it is covered with epoxy as a final step to bond
aluminium fittings to wood. I understand this doesn't happen in a Pietenpol
but it tells you how quick the metal can oxide. It is a great book with a
lot of information on epoxy and various additives. There is also a full
chapter on safety.
Steve G
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick
Navratil
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88
Hi Mike
I just want to add to your windshield point. If you have a large enough
oven and an understanding wife, you can heat the lexan and bend it to shape.
Heat at about 250 F for about 10-15 min and it becomes soft. Lay it on
template the shape of your bridge deck and let cool. Of course, run test
pieces for time and lay piece on good, clean, flat surface while baking. I
didn't notice much smell.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael <mailto:Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> D Cuy
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 11:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum-to-aluminum gluing with T-88
As a side note, I found that if you need to glue alum. sheet to alum sheet.
that if you sand the glue surfaces with 80 or 100 grit, clean with
a solvent and glue, you get a fantastic glue joint.
When I bent up my Lexan windshields (bowed them into position) and secured
them to my three brackets they distorted the 2024-T3 aluminum
instrument panel covers !!! I removed the windshields and glued three
discs of aluminum sheet (about 2.5" dia) to the underside of the curved
alum. cockpit/inst. panel covers, let cure and wha-la, no more distortion of
the surface when I re-attached the windshields.
This saved some riveting where I normally would have had some unwanted
rivets.
Mike C.
Message 19
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Dick kindly offered-
>If you have a large enough oven and an understanding wife, you can heat
>the lexan and bend it to shape. Heat at about 250 F for about 10-15 min and
>it becomes soft. I didn't notice much smell.
Dick, mine keeps coming out smelling like enchiladas and melted cheese.
What am I doing wrong? ;o)
Seriously, the guys over on the KR list (where a full canopy is usually
involved) tend to shy away from oven-forming this stuff and try to go with
factory canopies. We actually have it pretty easy with the small
windscreens that are typical on Piets. 41CC has nice curved windscreens but
the 3-piece segmented flat ones do seem a trifle more "antique", if not a
heck of a lot more trouble to make the frames and all.
Oscar Zuniga do not archive !
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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