Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Wing Rib Jig (Phillips, Jack)
2. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Wing Rib Jig (KMHeide)
3. 09:38 AM - RIBS (Brown Gravy)
4. 09:53 AM - Electric Kettle & steam (Steve Glass)
5. 10:39 AM - hangars (The Schuerrs)
6. 10:54 AM - Re: hangars (Phillips, Jack)
7. 11:20 AM - Re: RIBS (Bill Church)
8. 11:31 AM - tail wheel (Arden Adamson)
9. 11:50 AM - Re: tail wheel (Phillips, Jack)
10. 11:59 AM - Re: Wing Rib Jig (Glenn Thomas)
11. 12:11 PM - tailwheel spring attach ideas (Michael D Cuy)
12. 12:17 PM - Re: tail wheel (Hans Vander Voort)
13. 12:18 PM - Re: hangars (walt evans)
14. 12:41 PM - Re: RIBS (Jack T. Textor)
15. 01:16 PM - nails or staples (The Schuerrs)
16. 01:31 PM - Ribs and Rib Jigs (Barry Davis)
17. 01:32 PM - tire shaving and ELT (Douwe Blumberg)
18. 01:46 PM - Re: tire shaving and ELT (Michael D Cuy)
19. 02:29 PM - Slim gas containers for Piets (KMHeide)
20. 03:08 PM - ELT requirements (Oscar Zuniga)
21. 03:32 PM - Re: Ribs and Rib Jigs (Glenn Thomas)
22. 06:06 PM - Component Weights in Doug Fir (jimboyer@hughes.net)
23. 09:13 PM - Re: nails or staples (Catdesign)
24. 09:29 PM - Re: nails or staples (Glenn Thomas)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Rib Jig |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
I soaked mine. Made a form out of a piece of pine 2 x 4 with the shape
of the first 12" or so of the top capstrip cut in it with a bandsaw. I
would soak the first couple of feet of capstrip material in hot water
while I was building a rib, (actually soaked 3 capstrips at a time).
Then after I was finished glueing for the night, I would take the now
pliable capstrips out of the hot water and clamp them onto my form and
let them dry overnight. Next evening, they were ready and while I was
making a rib I would soak more capstrips and keep the process going.
You'll figure out a system that works for you.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of plncrzy
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Rib Jig
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "plncrzy" <plncrzy3@netscape.net>
OK, so by the over whelming response I will be building my own wing rib
jig. The thought, by buying one already made was not because I couldn't
do it, I was just trying to save some time. I now see the logic in
building and keeping my own jig. Next Question? Is there any difference
or benefit by either soaking or steaming your capstrips, does one work
any better than the other. Thanks Again for the help and support.
Bryan
Working together. For life.(sm)
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Rib Jig |
Glenn,
I must make mention of the excellent site you have created for building your
pietenpol. I have viewed several and all are excellent work.... However, your
site and its' format is very well done and for others who have not been to his
site......... I encourage it!
Ken
Fargo
Glenn Thomas <glennthomas@flyingwood.com> wrote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas"
Bryan,
I'm building ribs right now. I made the rib jig and posted some pictures of it
on my site as well as my bending jig and other wing building accessories. I also
crushed a sample gusset joint this evening as a confidence builder. I tested
a method for quickly leveling the edge of the gusset with a router and a laminate
flush trim bit so the top and bottom capstrips surfaces are smooth. Works
very well and saves time. I just posted some pictures of this on my site too.
The funny thing is that none of these ideas were mine, all came folks on the
list.
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29797#29797
---------------------------------
Message 3
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy@yahoo.com>
Has anyone had a chance to compare the smoothed rib from the pdf file with their
own rib? Is it accurate? I want to make a rib jig this weekend and don't want
to waste my time using a screwy profile.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29880#29880
Message 4
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| Subject: | Electric Kettle & steam |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Glass" <redsglass@hotmail.com>
Hi
Coming from Canada I am very familiar with an appliance that is not seen too
much in this country.
It is great for instant soup and tea and is much faster than a stove top
device.
It is also great for quick steaming. A rubber hose loosely fitted to the
top, other end going to a piece of conduit hanging from some hooks stuffed
with a rag in the end. After plugging it in stock like capstrips is very
pliable after about 15 minutes.
Walmart is starting to carry these items for less than $20. If you want to
steam seems a good way to go.
Steve G
Message 5
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Does everyone hangar their planes or does anyone have to transport it every time
they fly? I thought of an enclosed trailer. How long does it take to put the
wings on?
Message 6
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Too Long. Installing takes 3 people 30 minutes. Rigging them takes
quite a bit longer. Attaching aileron cables is not a trvial experience
either.
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of The
Schuerrs
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: hangars
Does everyone hangar their planes or does anyone have to transport it
every time they fly? I thought of an enclosed trailer. How long does
it take to put the wings on?
Working together. For life.(sm)
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary,
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use
of the email by you is prohibited.
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Message 7
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"Mr. Gravy",
Something is definitely screwy with the profile shown in your PDF file.
Having looked at it for a while, and looking at my copy of the 1932 FGM
plans, I have come up with a possible explanation for the discrepancies.
First, there is a fairly well known error in the FGM drawing - in the
X-direction, the sixteenth vertical dimension (5 7/16") is incorrect. It
should be 5 11/16" I think... (I don't have my "improved" plans in
front of me, but I do have a slightly blurry photo of my plans that
looks like it says 5 11/16" (see attached clipped photo) - correct me if
I'm wrong, anyone). This would account for the big "dip" in your plotted
airfoil.
Secondly, I think that you have likely read the dimensions following
regular drafting procedures - i.e. you have taken the measurements for
the top curve of the airfoil to be dimensions relative to the chord
line. The dimension arrowheads at the top of the rib SHOULD actually be
pointing "up" to the underside of the top curve, rather than pointing
"down" to the upperside of the top curve. The upper set of dimensions
are to be measured relative to the bottom of the rib - NOT the chord
line. (One exception is the "second" dimension from the left - the 2"
dimension IS from the chord to the top curve. There is no dimension
given for the underside of the airfoil at that point, but it has been
agreed by most to be very close to 1/2".) This method of measurement
would account for your plotted airfoil being "shorter" in height than
the smooth airfoil.
There are a few little "tweakings" that were done between the FGM plans
and the "improved" plans, but nothing major - EXCEPT the orientation of
the strut that goes behind the rear spar. As Clif Dawson pointed out the
other day, that strut should run down from the top of the rear spar -
not up from the bottom as drawn in the FGM plans. This is an important
distinction.
I wouldn't worry too much about minor little variations - just carefully
plot the co-ordinates out on a nice flat piece of board, put a few nails
in the board along the curve, and use a strip of wood (about the size of
a capstrip) as your guide to mark the airfoil curve on the board. Then,
using what will, by it's nature, be a smooth curve (because the wood
will not generate anything but a smooth curve), place your blocks or
more nails or whatever method you are going to use to maintain your
curve. The most important thing will be that you produce a batch of ribs
that are all the same. It really won't matter if your ribs are a
sixteenth of an inch bigger or smaller - as long as they are all the
same. Having said all that, here's a link to some photos of my rib jig
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=3D103
8&PlaneID=3D510&FName=3DBill&LName=3DChurch&PlaneName=3DAir%20Camper
Hope you can understand my explanation. And have fun building your jig
this weekend.
Bill C.
P.S. If you really like a lot of challenges, just build from the FGM
plans. But, if you find "challenges" to be annoying, buy a full set of
plans from the Pietenpol family. For one thing, they are much bigger
(24" x 36") and easier to read. (Not that everything is clear as day on
the improved plans either, but there's definitely more information
there.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brown
Gravy
Sent: April 21, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RIBS
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Brown Gravy"
--> <mjs.browngravy@yahoo.com>
Has anyone had a chance to compare the smoothed rib from the pdf file
with their own rib? Is it accurate? I want to make a rib jig this
weekend and don't want to waste my time using a screwy profile.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D29880#29880
Message 8
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Gentlemen,
I'm at the stage of building my tail wheel and attaching it to the fuselage but
have some questions. I have purchased the complete homebuilders 4" tail wheel
assembly from Aircraft Spruce. It is made for a leaf spring.
1. Which tail wheel method would be lighter? The kind using a spring with the
tail wheel? Or tail wheel assembly using the Pietenpol's coil spring and arm?
2. If I use the leaf spring (ala Mike Cuy's) what kind of spring is it? What should
I look for to get the right curve? My tail wheel bracket uses a 1 =BD inch
width spring.
3. If I use the Pietenpol's swing arm and coil, the attach fittings for the arms
are right where the three cross braces join the longerons. Do the bolts for
attaching the arm fittings to the longerons actually go through the braces as
well? Seems to be a odd place to put bolts (and they would be very long) and
it would seem to conflict with the horizontal cross brace.
Any help would be appreciated. Am enjoying the process even though slow.
Arden Adamson
Waupaca, WI
Message 9
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Hi Arden,
I've had both types of tailwheel spring on my Pietenpol.
I started with a leaf spring design like Mike Cuy has, using a modified Piper Super-Cruiser
tailwheel spring and the same tailwheel you are using. It worked
fine, up until a forced landing ripped it off the fuselage. I had 1-1/2 leafs
of the PA-12 spring and it was just about right. I had to modify the bend a
bit to get the right angle on my kingpost. I used the techniques Tony Bingelis
lays out in his book using a vise and a long 2 x 4 to bend the spring. Broke
a good vise doing that, by the way.
During the repairs after the forced landing, I decided to go with the BHP coil
spring design. As BHP designed it, it is about 1-1/2 lbs lighter than the PA-12
setup I had before. It was also totally inadequate for tailwheel steering.
This design was fine for a tailskid, where no steering loads were imparted.
The problem with it for a swiveling tailwheel is that when the tailwheel is in
any position other than trail, it puts a substantial moment on the whole assembly,
tending to twist it off the tail of the airplane.
I built a new, heavier version which was beefed up to resist the torsion and it
works fine, but it weighs the same as the Super Cruiser setup I had originally.
If I had a choice, I would use the leaf spring design. Simpler and no heavier,
and probably produces less drag. There's got to be a reason that virtually all
production taildraggers used this design. If you use the leaf spring, I would
buy a used one from a salvage yard, or ebay, and modify it as required to
fit your plane. Or modify an automobile leaf spring. Should work just fine.
If you use the coil spring design, mount your brackets where practical. Mine
attach aft of the last uprights on the lower longerons.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Hoping the wx will be good enough to fly it to a fly-in at Franklin County, NC
tomorrow
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Arden Adamson
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 2:48 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail wheel
Gentlemen,
I'm at the stage of building my tail wheel and attaching it to the fuselage but
have some questions. I have purchased the complete homebuilders 4" tail wheel
assembly from Aircraft Spruce. It is made for a leaf spring.
1 Which tail wheel method would be lighter? The kind using a spring with
the tail wheel? Or tail wheel assembly using the Pietenpol's coil spring and
arm?
2 If I use the leaf spring (ala Mike Cuy's) what kind of spring is it? What
should I look for to get the right curve? My tail wheel bracket uses a 1
=BD inch width spring.
3 If I use the Pietenpol's swing arm and coil, the attach fittings for the
arms are right where the three cross braces join the longerons. Do the bolts
for attaching the arm fittings to the longerons actually go through the braces
as well? Seems to be a odd place to put bolts (and they would be very long)
and it would seem to conflict with the horizontal cross brace.
Any help would be appreciated. Am enjoying the process even though slow.
Arden Adamson
Waupaca, WI
Working together. For life.(sm)
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary,
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use
of the email by you is prohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese - Svenska: www.cardinalhealth.com/legal/email
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Rib Jig |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
Thanks,
The site is my answer to mykitplane.com before I knew it existed. Got most of
my ideas for the jig from pictures Bill Church posted there. This project is all
about learning and sharing. My fear is that somebody may see my site and
consider me some kind of expert which needs to be made clear that I am not. I'm
just out there experimenting and learning as I go and having a blast.
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29906#29906
Message 11
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| Subject: | tailwheel spring attach ideas |
Hello Arden-- good to see you surface on the list and glad you are plugging
away. I remember having the pleasure of
meeting you at the house several years back when I was building.
Glad you are still at it.
I have attached two sketches and a photo that help explain how I attached
two leaf springs to my fuselage. The sketches only show one
leaf but I needed two for it to work properly. You can order leaf sets
from Wicks and Wag Aero---but Wag Aero is $$ sometimes.
Univair might have them if they are still in business.
I had to cold bend one of my springs (see Bingelis books) and drill two new
holes-----use a masonry bit ala Bingelis's suggestion and it works well !
The Homebuilder's TW is a good one but you have to be careful if you can
break it into a full swivel mode by hand or too easily---this can wreck your
entire airplane on landing or takeoff. I've had to take the TW apart and
grind out the alum. cam area with a dremel twice now so that it doesn't go
"surprise" into full swivel mode. I have settled for a long time just
having that thing be totally controllable/steerable and am very happy to
never see
it swivel again. Your mileage may vary.
All the best---
Mike C. in Ohio
Message 12
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com>
Arden,
Can't answer all your questions but here is what I used (AS&S Partnumbers)
06-01615 , MATCO SOLID RUBBER , ( 5 Lbs)
06-14500 , TAILWHEEL LEAF SPRING # 4 , (1 3/4 Lbs)
Works for me.
Hans
Message 13
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I invested in a "Cover-it Hanger" 30x20 and the piet fits just fine. (My second
hanger for my second project with no down side)
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: The Schuerrs
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: hangars
Does everyone hangar their planes or does anyone have to transport it every time
they fly? I thought of an enclosed trailer. How long does it take to put
the wings on?
Message 14
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor@thepalmergroup.com>
Bill Church's examples are very good. On my jig it worked well to drill
a 3/4" hole at each intersection of the cap strip and braces. This way
you don't have to worry about the glue joints sticking to your jig. You
can see some pictures on my site www.textors.com
Jack Textor
Message 15
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| Subject: | nails or staples |
Purists, forgive me. What do you all think of tacking the gussets in place with
an Impulse trim gun?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Ribs and Rib Jigs |
Don't you just love to see the questions pop up about the dimensions of the ribs
and the rib jig. This can only mean one thing and that is that another new Pietenpol
is being started.
I can remember those were the first "panic" questions that arose when we started
our Piets three years ago and now I look back fondly and laugh.
Never to worry, a lot more head scratching is in store for those just starting
out, but the answers become easier to get as you gain experience in the building
process.
The main thing is to do something on the Piet every day. This includes reading
plans, ordering parts, scrounging, talking and asking questions.
Good Luck
Barry
Message 17
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| Subject: | tire shaving and ELT |
Hi guys,
I'm confused about whether I need an ELT or not. Seems like some have it and some
don't. I'd appreciate knowing who has one and who doesn't and what your inspector
said.
Also, does anyone know where I can have some tires shaved of their tread? I guess
I need a place with a tire lathe. I remember this came up a few months ago,
but of course I didn't keep the names
thanks,
Douwe
Douwe
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: tire shaving and ELT |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Douwe-- my inspector never even asked about wether or not I had an
ELT (for the flight test period you don't need an ELT)
and I did not have one-- nor do I to this day.
Mike C.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Slim gas containers for Piets |
Members of the list:
Some short time ago there was discussion about using plastic fuel tanks.....Here
is a site that sells very narrow gas tanks complete with brass insert for
a gas line. I found these at my local Polaris dealer called Pioneer Outdoor Products.
They have been bought out by Kolpin Outdoor. Scroll downt ot he atv and
you can find more about different lengths, widths, and volumn....
Kolpin ATV Accessories
Ken
Fargo, ND
---------------------------------
Message 20
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| Subject: | ELT requirements |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
I am going to blackmail Mike Cuy since I now know that he is operating his
Piet in violation of the FARs. I believe an ELT is required. There are
exemptions made when it is required to ferry an aircraft from a place where
repairs cannot be made to a place where they can, and other ferry
operations. More useful, however, are these (numbers correspond to the
exceptions noted in the applicable FAR):
(3) aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within
a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight
operations began ["flying off your hours" or just training]
(4) aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to design and
testing [which I guess you could say most experimentals are doing every time
they fly], and
(9)aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person. [as in, Sky Scout].
All others- ELT or beware a ramp check.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Ribs and Rib Jigs |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
Hey,
I resemble that! ...wasn't 3 years ago though. I think it was last month. It's
a good feeling when you start to feel like you can do this with confidence.
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29952#29952
Message 22
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| Subject: | Component Weights in Doug Fir |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "jimboyer@hughes.net" <jimboyer@hughes.net>
Hello Steve and Pietenpol Group,
You asked what my Piet weighed, but its not complete so my wife helped
me weigh the wood parts today. It would be interesting to see how the
weights compare with people who have built out of spruce instead of
Doug Fir that I used.
Fuselage (with control sticks/torque rod/aileron horn assy. but less
the 1/8 inch side ply sheeting) 59.5 lbs.
Horizontal Stabilizer 4 lbs Both Elevators 3.5 lbs
Vertical Fin and Rudder 2 lbs
32 Wing Ribs 24 lbs
The tail surfaces have not had their leading/trailing edges rounded
yet and the fuselage has the 1/4 inch ply bottom but not the side 1/8
inch ply sheeting (probably offset by the control stick assembly). I
also did not include the weights of any of the steel parts except the
stick assembly (too much work to remove it today). All the wood parts
are as they were when taken out of their jigs.
Oh, I forgot, I am using a Corvair engine. Have all the parts now and
have the crank out ready to get nitrided and then will be ready to
final assembly the engine.
Any questions, comments?
Jim Boyer@hughes.net
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: nails or staples |
I believe the staples will be to large a diameter and possibly split the wood.
Try it for your self. I think the advice is to use an office type stapler.
I didn't use any staples or nails. I'm using T-88 epoxy and I clamped on the gussets
after I removed the rib from the jig. The nails and stapes provide clamping
pressure and once the glue is dried they a dead weight unless removed.
Chris Tracy
Sacramento, Ca
----- Original Message -----
From: The Schuerrs
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 1:15 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: nails or staples
Purists, forgive me. What do you all think of tacking the gussets in place with
an Impulse trim gun?
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: nails or staples |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
I opted to clamp and not use nails or staples. I felt that since the nails/staples
are only effective while the T-88 cures, no point in adding stress to the
joint and possibly fracturing the wood. I'm sure it's safe because most people
do use nails and staples, just wanted to experiment with a clamp. Have a rib
setting in the jig right now. Gussets stay put as long as the clamp is perpendicular
to the gusset.
2 fellow builders in my area say it wastes time because if you staple you can pull
the rib out of the jig and make another rib while the first one cures. I
don't know if the rib could relax into slightly different shape so I can live
with the rib-a-day plan. Whats another month over the 5 years I'll be building?
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29995#29995
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