---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/25/06: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:05 AM - Pitch trimming (Jeff Boatright) 2. 05:22 AM - Re: Pitch trimming (Phillips, Jack) 3. 05:23 AM - Re: Pitch trimming (Isablcorky@aol.com) 4. 05:52 AM - Re: Pitch trimming (Jim Ash) 5. 06:01 AM - Re: Pitch trimming () 6. 06:09 AM - Re: Pitch trimming (Jack T. Textor) 7. 06:24 AM - pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life (Michael D Cuy) 8. 07:10 AM - Re: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life (Rick Holland) 9. 07:47 AM - Re: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life (Jack T. Textor) 10. 08:15 AM - Re: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life () 11. 08:41 AM - Re: Pitch trimming (Rob Stapleton) 12. 09:05 AM - Re: Pitch trimming (Carl Vought) 13. 09:19 AM - Re: Trim tab was pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life (Hans Vander Voort) 14. 10:56 AM - Re: Pitch trimming (tmbrant1@netzero.com) 15. 01:21 PM - Re: Re: Wing Rib Jig (Eric Williams) 16. 01:21 PM - Re: Pitch trimming (Jeff Boatright) 17. 01:33 PM - Re: Pietenpol (chris cummins) 18. 02:32 PM - Wing rib jigs (Carl Vought) 19. 02:53 PM - Brakes (TBYH@aol.com) 20. 03:51 PM - Re: Broadhead to Oshkosh (Alan Lyscars) 21. 06:20 PM - Re: Brakes (KMHeide) 22. 07:41 PM - Re: Pietenpol (R Matt Doody) 23. 08:07 PM - Re: Pitch trimming (gcardinal) 24. 09:41 PM - Re: Pitch trimming (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:11 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post of the fuselage. Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the plane still wants to nose down. Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess another solution would be trim tabs. I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come up with an answer. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, Jeff ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" You could try the old bungee cord on the stick approach - a short bungee cord pulling back on the stick, with a sliding ring that can be moved up or down the stick as required to apply the correct spring force. I installed a spring assist trim system similar to Mike Cuy's on mine, with a set of springs pulling on the elevator bellcrank in the fuselage. Spring tension can be adjusted with a lever in the cockpit. Works great. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post of the fuselage. Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the plane still wants to nose down. Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess another solution would be trim tabs. I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come up with an answer. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, Jeff Cardinal Health -- Working together. For life. (sm) This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese - Svenska: www.cardinalhealth.com/legal/email ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:42 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming Jeff, Had the same experience with 41CC in the beginning. Forward 16 gal fuel tank, 22lb metal prop and a 140 lb test pilot. When he released the stick it nose dived. We twixed the hor stab, ( eyeballed it so it lined up with lower edge of engine rocker covers). That helped some. I Africanized a trim tab. Took a flat rubber hold down strap about a foot long. Anchored both ends to front of seat so it was just loose when wrapped around the bottom of the stick. As rear pressure was needed merely slide the rubber strap up the stick until everything equalized. If you forget to lower the strap on landing don't worry as you can override it's pressure. It is a way of solving your little problem. Another solution is have your pilot eat more Louisiana Crawfish. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:49 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash I've flow with spring-assisted systems in gliders and they work ok. My two concerns are that you're effectively applying continuous pressure to the whole system from the stick all the way back to the elevator, which I'm not convinced would contribute to premature wear to the bushings and bearings in the middle of it all. Assuming you just bungee the stick, do you have enough travel left to be able to fly it safely? This is another argument against applying extra forces up front. Trim tabs or a re-arrangement of your tail feathers wouldn't have this same effect. My second concern is that if something happens to your elevator linkage system, you're screwd in a big way. I've certainly flown a good number of aircraft in which this is a risk, but an airplane of mine will have some kind of independent trim system which can be used independently of the primary elevator linkage. Granted, a Piet doesn't have this by design, but mine will. Most commonly used are flying trim systems or some kind of adjustment to the horizontal stabilizer like the jack screw in my J-3. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: "Phillips, Jack" >Sent: Apr 25, 2006 8:21 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" > >You could try the old bungee cord on the stick approach - a short bungee >cord pulling back on the stick, with a sliding ring that can be moved up >or down the stick as required to apply the correct spring force. > >I installed a spring assist trim system similar to Mike Cuy's on mine, >with a set of springs pulling on the elevator bellcrank in the fuselage. >Spring tension can be adjusted with a lever in the cockpit. Works >great. > >Jack Phillips >NX899JP >Raleigh, NC > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff >Boatright >Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:02 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > >We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it >tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading >edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due >to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post >of the fuselage. > >Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the >turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the >stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to >hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the >plane still wants to nose down. > >Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if >there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess >another solution would be trim tabs. > >I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come >up with an answer. > >Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, > >Jeff > > > > > > > >Cardinal Health -- Working together. For life. (sm) >_________________________________________________ > >This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. > >Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese - Svenska: www.cardinalhealth.com/legal/email > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:43 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming From: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Don't forget,your engine is already in a nose down attitude.Don't let this throw you off. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: April 25, 2006 8:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post of the fuselage. Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the plane still wants to nose down. Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess another solution would be trim tabs. I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come up with an answer. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, Jeff ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming From: "Jack T. Textor" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack T. Textor" Jack, Do you have any pictures of the arrangement? Jack Textor You could try the old bungee cord on the stick approach - a short bungee cord pulling back on the stick, with a sliding ring that can be moved up or down the stick as required to apply the correct spring force. I installed a spring assist trim system similar to Mike Cuy's on mine, with a set of springs pulling on the elevator bellcrank in the fuselage. Spring tension can be adjusted with a lever in the cockpit. Works great. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:10 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy There is a very impressive press conference video of Sean describing his entire ordeal a few weeks ago at the bottom of this newswire from AvWeb. The guy is one impressive person. Mike C. http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/609-full.html ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:13 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life Thoughts of losing elevator control like this guy did is the reason that I have thought of installing independent elevator trim as you see on Pipers and Cessnas. Have even looked at the Mac electronic trim servos, just a big RC servo that would fit inside one of the flippers with 3 wires running up to the cockpit. Landing with only trim control wouldn't be fun but preferable to bailing out with no parachute. Rick H. On 4/25/06, Michael D Cuy wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy < > Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > > There is a very impressive press conference video of Sean describing his > entire ordeal a few weeks ago at the bottom of this newswire > > from AvWeb. The guy is one impressive person. > > Mike C. > > http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/609-full.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life From: "Jack T. Textor" Rick, I too have considered the MAC. My RV 8 had one, they were great. The problem is the thickness of the Piets H-Stab is not enough to completely house the servo. Also the Stabs are not directly tied together. Jack Textor Thoughts of losing elevator control like this guy did is the reason that I have thought of installing independent elevator trim as you see on Pipers and Cessnas. Have even looked at the Mac electronic trim servos, just a big RC servo that would fit inside one of the flippers with 3 wires running up to the cockpit. Landing with only trim control wouldn't be fun but preferable to bailing out with no parachute. Rick H. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:21 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life From: How bout having two individual control sticks,one for one side of the elevator and one for the other.That would make for some interesting flying eh! ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack T. Textor Sent: April 25, 2006 10:47 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life Rick, I too have considered the MAC. My RV 8 had one, they were great. The problem is the thickness of the Piets H-Stab is not enough to completely house the servo. Also the Stabs are not directly tied together. Jack Textor Thoughts of losing elevator control like this guy did is the reason that I have thought of installing independent elevator trim as you see on Pipers and Cessnas. Have even looked at the Mac electronic trim servos, just a big RC servo that would fit inside one of the flippers with 3 wires running up to the cockpit. Landing with only trim control wouldn't be fun but preferable to bailing out with no parachute. Rick H. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:29 AM PST US From: "Rob Stapleton" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Rob Stapleton" I am no expert on aeronautical engineering but as a photographer I have seen plenty of aircraft with aluminum tabs added to the elevator that are bent at angles to correct pitch in level flight. I am not sure about the strength of these into a wooden elevator? Any comments on this? Too simple? Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post of the fuselage. Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the plane still wants to nose down. Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess another solution would be trim tabs. I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come up with an answer. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, Jeff ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:27 AM PST US From: "Carl Vought" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Vought" I've been wondering the same thing. I don't think I've ever seen a Piet with a "bendable" trim tab. Have I just not been looking hard enough?....Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Stapleton" Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:40 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Rob Stapleton" > > I am no expert on aeronautical engineering but as a photographer I have > seen > plenty of aircraft with aluminum tabs added to the elevator that are bent > at > angles to correct pitch in level flight. I am not sure about the strength > of > these into a wooden elevator? Any comments on this? Too simple? > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff > Boatright > Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:02 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it > tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading > edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due > to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post > of the fuselage. > > Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the > turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the > stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to > hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the > plane still wants to nose down. > > Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if > there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess > another solution would be trim tabs. > > I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come > up with an answer. > > Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, > > Jeff > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Trim tab was pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life From: Hans Vander Voort --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Rick, The only problem I see with this is that the Elevator flippers are not connected (no torque tube) Thus you trim only one flipper and not the other. Unless of course you place servos in both. Same for aluminum trim tabs Further the elevator cables are 3/32 with a strength of 1000+ Lbs. With a 1 : 5 ratio on your stick you will need to put 200 Lbs of force on the stick to break something. The only way you will such high stress on the tail surfaces is during aerobatics (better bring a parachute) Hans ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:30 AM PST US From: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Bill Rewey (I believe) has an aluminum tab on his Piet - it's the Navy painted one you've probably seen before. I don't think he's on the list. In addition to that he's got a bungee cord with an Adel clamp around the stick which is slid up and down as needed for trim. Tom B. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:08 PM PST US From: "Eric Williams" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Rib Jig --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Eric Williams" I've got a set of wing ribs that I'll sell you for $150 if you are interested in them. They are somewhere around 10 years old and were owned by others before me so I can't testify to anything about the building process other than that I know they are Douglas Fir and were glued with West System epoxy. I had pictures on Barnstormers as part of the ad where I was trying to sell the project as a whole with ribs, tail feathers, and fuselage but no one bought it and the ad has expired. I guess I'll sell it all separately if that works better. Email me off-list if you (or anyone else) has any interest and I can email pictures back to you. Thanks. Eric >From: "plncrzy" >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Rib Jig >Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:22:20 -0700 > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "plncrzy" > >OK, so by the over whelming response I will be building my own wing rib >jig. The thought, by buying one already made was not because I couldn't do >it, I was just trying to save some time. I now see the logic in building >and keeping my own jig. Next Question? Is there any difference or benefit >by either soaking or steaming your capstrips, does one work any better than >the other. Thanks Again for the help and support. Bryan > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29734#29734 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:08 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming Cc: Boatright1@aol.com, FWWhitaker@worldnet.att.net --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright Thanks for all the thoughts on this, and please keep them coming. Our Piet had a huge trim tab, but for the opposite problem. The former owner mainly flew solo and was a big, tall guy. He had problems with nose up, not nose down. Obviously we could have left the tab on and simply bent it the other way, but it was so huge and ugly (and only on one elevator!) that we pulled it off. Even solo we're getting nose down, so we still need a trim solution. At 11:04 AM -0500 4/25/06, Carl Vought wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Vought" > >I've been wondering the same thing. I don't think I've ever seen a >Piet with a "bendable" trim tab. Have I just not been looking hard >enough?....Carl Vought >----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Stapleton" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:40 AM >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Rob Stapleton" >> >>I am no expert on aeronautical engineering but as a photographer I have seen >>plenty of aircraft with aluminum tabs added to the elevator that are bent at >>angles to correct pitch in level flight. I am not sure about the strength of >>these into a wooden elevator? Any comments on this? Too simple? >>Rob >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff >>Boatright >>Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:02 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming >> >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright >> >>We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it >>tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading >>edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due >>to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post >>of the fuselage. >> >>Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the >>turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the >>stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to >>hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the >>plane still wants to nose down. >> >>Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if >>there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess >>another solution would be trim tabs. >> >>I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come >>up with an answer. >> >>Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, >> >>Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:05 PM PST US From: chris cummins Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Matt, You are correct in your observations. What else would you like to know. I'll see if I can answer your questions. Chris Cummins 516BC --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:59 PM PST US From: "Carl Vought" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib jigs The recent interest in rib jigs, staples vs nails, etc.has prompted me to post a picture of a rib jig I made while building an Airbike wing. I didnt use nails or staples. Instead, I held everything in place with toggle clamps. What I like about this method is that you can put the gussets on both sides at the same time...Cuts glue-drying time in half. The price you pay is that the gussets need to be cut very uniformly, which you can do by stacking the layers of ply and using a metal template on the top of the stack. Carl Vought ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:17 PM PST US From: TBYH@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brakes I'm looking in to various go-kart brakes for my Piet and just wondering what most of you use -- the mechanically actuated disc brakes, or the hydraulic juice brake calipers. I see advantages/disadvantages to both and wanted to see what all of the experts have to say! I'm building the Jenny-style landing gear and will use disc brakes -- just wondering if mechanical or juice... Got all the tail feathers finished over the weekend -- less hinges (will install those tonight). Came out nice and light...then I'll get the fuselage down from the ceiling joists and start putting landing gear together... Hey, less than 90 days to Brodhead! Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:49 PM PST US From: "Alan Lyscars" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Broadhead to Oshkosh Dear Brian, I can at least speak for OSH. I took my oldest to Airventure in 2003 (he was 13 yrs old). We borrowed my buddy's pop-up camper and camped at Camp Schoeller. No kidding: there were at least 20,000 other tents/pop-ups/5th wheels/drive-arounds/mobile palaces at Camp Shoeller that week. At first, we felt alone-not knowing anyone else out there. Like most campground camping experiences, as the week progressed, we came to know the campers around us. After a big day inhaling aircraft in the sun, we'd retreat to, what we came to call, home and fire the grill for steaks and corn. So camping at OSH is not a trout-filled dream. But it's a great place to hang your hat and meet fellow aviation nuts like us. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: brian jardine To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 2:57 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Broadhead to Oshkosh Group, I am planning a cross-country trip (driving) from Utah to Broadhead, and then on to Air Adventure at Oshkosh. I am bringing my 3 young boys, 12, 9, and 5. Earth Day ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:40 PM PST US From: KMHeide Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes Say Fred, Have you looked at the new mountain bikes with front disc brake set-up They have an internal spring that return the brake back to the open without any exposed brake springs. The disc is bolted onto a spindle which could be taken off and applied to our piets.....Just a thought but looks and seems very promising and no need for a return spring on the toe pedal.... Any other thoughts..... Ken TBYH@aol.com wrote: I'm looking in to various go-kart brakes for my Piet and just wondering what most of you use -- the mechanically actuated disc brakes, or the hydraulic juice brake calipers. I see advantages/disadvantages to both and wanted to see what all of the experts have to say! I'm building the Jenny-style landing gear and will use disc brakes -- just wondering if mechanical or juice... Got all the tail feathers finished over the weekend -- less hinges (will install those tonight). Came out nice and light...then I'll get the fuselage down from the ceiling joists and start putting landing gear together... Hey, less than 90 days to Brodhead! Fred B. La Crosse, WI --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:06 PM PST US From: R Matt Doody Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Chris, Thanks for responding. I am currently working on another project however I have an interest in building a Piet as a next project. What are the dimensions on the cant for the cabanes and what tubing sizes did you use for the empennage? What other changes have you made? Do you plan on creating a website show-casing your Piet and its unique features? Best Regards, Matt chris cummins wrote: Matt, You are correct in your observations. What else would you like to know. I'll see if I can answer your questions. Chris Cummins 516BC --------------------------------- --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:32 PM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gcardinal" Jeff, We had the same problem with NX18235 when it first flew. It required about 6 lbs. of aft stick pressure to maintain level flight. One problem we found was the elevators were rigged slightly uneven. When this was corrected the required aft stick pressure was reduced to about 2 lbs. The remaining trimming was taken care of by adjusting the stabilizer turnbuckles. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 7:01 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it tends to > nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading edge / raise > the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due to the rudder > being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post of the fuselage. > > Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the > turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the > stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to hold > about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the plane still > wants to nose down. > > Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if there > is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess another > solution would be trim tabs. > > I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come up > with an answer. > > Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, > > Jeff > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:36 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming First, a few observations: The Pietenpol Airfoil has a LOT of negative pitching moment, requiring more down force on the tail than other types of airfoils, which is another one of the things that cause this type airframe to be very draggy. Trim drag is the amount of Down force applied to the tail, to maintain level flight at a particular power setting. Another thing that aggravates the negative pitching moment, is the actual weight of the flippers, which adds to the nose down characteristic. The pitch axis is dynamic on Pietenpols, similar to any other aircraft, in that trim drag changes with changes in C of G. If you carried all of your fuel in the wing (as designed), the C of G changes very little, hence, no need for adjustable pitch trim. Choices: Adjusting the leading edge of the stabilizer down, to attain a nose up attitude would be a ground adjustable trim method. If you use a cowling fuel tank, an in flight adjustable trim tab, or some type of spring / bunji applied to either the bell crank, or the stick, may be used. In my mind, I don't like anything extra - if it ain't there, it can't break...kiss method. I had similar characteristics as you (and many others), in that I had to hold back stick, to maintain level flight when the C of G was at the forward positions - full cowl tank. The thing I did was to experiment with a Fixed trim tab on the inboard trailing edge of each flipper. This negates the weight of the flippers, and has no moving parts. I used balsa wood trailing edge of R. C. airplanes, available at hobby stores. Each one is about 5" long, and 1 1/2" wide, and blended right into the trailing edge of the flipper. I experimented with the angle of the trim tab, and after many test flights, found an angle that would be hands off, with the C of G in the mid to forward range. To make dynamic pitch trim changes, I simply adjust the power setting. I have pictures of my trim tabs here : http://nx770cg.com/Fuselage.html Chuck G. NX770CG