Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:25 AM - Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both (Rcaprd@aol.com)
2. 12:27 PM - Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both (Rick Holland)
3. 03:04 PM - Two New Email Lists at Matronics and Wiki Reminder! (Matt Dralle)
4. 05:05 PM - Re: weight and balance ()
5. 06:05 PM - Re: Tach cable (D.Reid)
6. 06:28 PM - Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both (Rcaprd@aol.com)
7. 07:17 PM - Weight and Balance (Rcaprd@aol.com)
8. 07:31 PM - Re: Weight and Balance ()
9. 08:06 PM - Re: weight and balance (Gordon Bowen)
10. 08:53 PM - Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both (Dick Navratil)
11. 11:46 PM - Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both |
In a message dated 5/28/2006 8:09:10 PM Central Standard Time,
at7000ft@gmail.com writes:
Did you glue (poly-tak) the fabric to the bottom of each rib, or is it best
to wait till you rib stitch to pull the bottom fabric up to the undercambered
ribs?
Rick,
Allow me to jump in here. You should NOT glue the fabric to the bottom
(or top) of the wing ribs, or when you shrink the fabric it could warp the
ribs. The Stits method says the fabric will shrink by 10%.
The way I did it, was to glue the fabric on the bottom first, then the
top, then the wing tips, keeping the wrinkles out. I clamped the fabric in place
with spring clamps and cloths pins. Then did the leading and trailing edge
tapes, then do a fabric shrink with 75% to 80%of the suggested heat setting,
then rib stitch - pulling the fabric up in the undercambered portion, then the
final 100% of the full max suggested heat setting - keeping a close eye on the
temp of the iron, then tape over the the stitches. You can hear the fabric
moving all over the place when you shrink it. The stitches are closer together
in the prop was area, plus one rib each side. I used just over 500 stitches !!
Chuck G.
NX770CG
http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html
Too windy to fly in the Land of Oz...I wonder if anyone ever did a takeoff -
going in reverse !!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both |
Thank you Chuck, real windy all weekend here South of Denver also.
Rick
do not archive
On 5/29/06, Rcaprd@aol.com <Rcaprd@aol.com> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/28/2006 8:09:10 PM Central Standard Time,
> at7000ft@gmail.com writes:
>
> Did you glue (poly-tak) the fabric to the bottom of each rib, or is it
> best to wait till you rib stitch to pull the bottom fabric up to the
> undercambered ribs?
>
> Rick,
> Allow me to jump in here. You should NOT glue the fabric to the
> bottom (or top) of the wing ribs, or when you shrink the fabric it could
> warp the ribs. The Stits method says the fabric will shrink by 10%.
> The way I did it, was to glue the fabric on the bottom first, then
> the top, then the wing tips, keeping the wrinkles out. I clamped the fabr=
ic
> in place with spring clamps and cloths pins. Then did the leading and
> trailing edge tapes, then do a fabric shrink with 75% to 80%of the sugges=
ted
> heat setting, then rib stitch - pulling the fabric up in the undercambere=
d
> portion, then the final 100% of the full max suggested heat setting -
> keeping a close eye on the temp of the iron, then tape over the the
> stitches. You can hear the fabric moving all over the place when you shr=
ink
> it. The stitches are closer together in the prop was area, plus one rib
> each side. I used just over 500 stitches !!
>
> Chuck G.
> NX770CG
> http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html
> Too windy to fly in the Land of Oz...I wonder if anyone ever did a takeof=
f
> - going in reverse !!
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 3
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| Subject: | Two New Email Lists at Matronics and Wiki Reminder! |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
I have added two new email Lists to the Matronics Line up today. These include
a Continental engine List and a Lightning aircraft List:
===========
continental-list@matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Continental-List
Everything related to the Continental aircraft engine. Sky's the limit on discussions
here.
===========
===========
lightning-list@matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
This is an exciting new design from Arion Aircraft LLC in Shelbyville Tennessee. Pete Krotje has a very nice web site on the aircraft that can be found here: http://www.arionaircraft.com/
===========
Also, if you haven't checked out the new Matronics Aircraft Wiki, swing by and
have a look. Remember, a Wiki is only as good as the content that the members
put into it. Have a look over some of the sections, and if you've got some interesting
or useful, please add it to the Wiki! Its all about YOU! :-) The
URL for the Matronics Wiki is:
http://wiki.matronics.com
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 4
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| Subject: | tenpol-List:weight and balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
I have searched through the drawings and have come up empty as to the
balance locations on the aircraft for a weight and balance.The AME has
asked me to get in touch with the web to find out what these
are.Thankyou in advance for any info you can provide.
Message 5
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Corky,
Recieved the package. Thanks. Money order is on it's way.
Dave
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both |
In a message dated 5/29/2006 2:29:40 PM Central Standard Time,
at7000ft@gmail.com writes:
The way I did it, was to glue the fabric on the bottom first, then the top
Only at the leading edge, and trailing edges.
Chuck G.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Weight and Balance |
In a message dated 5/28/2006 6:29:57 PM Central Standard Time,
harvey.rule@bell.ca writes:
I need to know the two balance points on the aircraft.I suspect one is on the
seat arm rest(for for and aft) and the other on the top of the wing for left
and right.
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
I have searched through the drawings and have come up empty as to the
balance locations on the aircraft for a weight and balance.The AME has
asked me to get in touch with the web to find out what these
are.Thankyou in advance for any info you can provide.
I think what you are looking for is the forward and aft Center of
Gravity locations. This is the tolorance where the weight of the aircraft loads
the wing. When doing Weight & Balance, there is no right & left balance
points. For the Pietenpol Airfoil, Bernard H. Pietenpol said that it should be
maintained between 1/4 to 1/3 of the chord.
This amounts to 25% of the chord for the forward limit, and for the
aft limit it would be 33 1/3%. The chord is 60", so the forward limit is 25%
of 60", which is 15" behind the leading edge. For the aft limit it would be
33 1/3% of 60", which is 20" behind the leading edge. Therefore, your C. of
G. limits are between 15 and 20 inches behind the leading edge. Pietenpols
are notorious for coming out with the C. G. close to the aft limit. If the C.
G. is behind the aft limit, this is a very dangerous way to fly the plane.
Should the wing stall in flight, it might be impossible to get it out of the
stalled condition.
I don't know of any other airfoils with an aft limit as far back as the
Pietenpol. I believe this is because of the undercambered airfoil, which has a
large amount of nose down pitching moment. In saying that, if you use
anything other than the Pietenpol airfoil, you Should Not use these limits. You
Must use the limits of the particular airfoil being used.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 8
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| Subject: | Weight and Balance |
Thanks very much for this info,very useful.I was wondering during the
weight and balance process where one puts the level on the horizontal
and the AME said he wanted the level point for even weight on either
side?Thanks.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rcaprd@aol.com
Sent: May 29, 2006 10:15 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
In a message dated 5/28/2006 6:29:57 PM Central Standard Time,
harvey.rule@bell.ca writes:
I need to know the two balance points on the aircraft.I suspect
one is on the seat arm rest(for for and aft) and the other on the top of
the wing for left and right.
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
I have searched through the drawings and have come up empty as to the
balance locations on the aircraft for a weight and balance.The AME has
asked me to get in touch with the web to find out what these
are.Thankyou in advance for any info you can provide.
I think what you are looking for is the forward and aft Center
of Gravity locations. This is the tolorance where the weight of the
aircraft loads the wing. When doing Weight & Balance, there is no right
& left balance points. For the Pietenpol Airfoil, Bernard H. Pietenpol
said that it should be maintained between 1/4 to 1/3 of the chord.
This amounts to 25% of the chord for the forward limit, and
for the aft limit it would be 33 1/3%. The chord is 60", so the forward
limit is 25% of 60", which is 15" behind the leading edge. For the aft
limit it would be 33 1/3% of 60", which is 20" behind the leading edge.
Therefore, your C. of G. limits are between 15 and 20 inches behind the
leading edge. Pietenpols are notorious for coming out with the C. G.
close to the aft limit. If the C. G. is behind the aft limit, this is a
very dangerous way to fly the plane. Should the wing stall in flight,
it might be impossible to get it out of the stalled condition.
I don't know of any other airfoils with an aft limit as far back as
the Pietenpol. I believe this is because of the undercambered airfoil,
which has a large amount of nose down pitching moment. In saying that,
if you use anything other than the Pietenpol airfoil, you Should Not use
these limits. You Must use the limits of the particular airfoil being
used.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: tenpol-List:weight and balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
Harvey,
A traditional rectangluar wing, flat bottomed, so called NACA wing, has a
standard loaded CG range. The CG range is calculated to provide the CG
range slightly forward of the center of lift. This forward shift of loaded
CG is due to the nature of the weight of the tail feathers and whether they
provide additional lift in flight. This standard NACA wing loaded CG range
is 25% to 33% of chord. So, assuming a 60" chord line, then this means the
loaded operational CG range is 12" to 20" from the leading edge of the wing.
The center of lift would be slightly behind the 20" back limit, to assure a
nose over stall instead of a tail heavy flat non-recoverable stall. Each
moveable item loaded in the plane would have a calculated ARM or distance
forward of or behind this datum point (in the case above, meaning the
leading edge of the wing). The empty (setting longerons level in hanger) is
less important, other than the fact the plane may fall over on it's prop if
the empty CG is too far forward of the landing gear. So, here's how you do
it, assuming the Pietenpol undercamber wing qualifies as a NACA type.
Level up the top longerons, north/south and east/west. You may have to add
weight to the tail wheel to keep the nose from tipping over. Now weigh the
plane at all three wheels. Drop plumb from the leading edge of the wing and
mark it on the floor. Now measure the distance each wheel behind this zero
datum line. Multiply the weights at each point the plane touches the ground
x distance from datum and you'll get moment. Example- the tail wheel could
weigh 10 lbs and be 170" behind the leading edge of wing therefore it's
moment is 1700"/lbs. Main gear axles could weigh each 300lbs and be 3"
behind the leading edge therefore 1800"/lbs. Divide total moment by total
weight and you'll get the empty CG of the plane. Example above continued--
total weight= 610lbs. total moment= 3500"/lbs, therefore empty CG is 5.7"
behind the leading edge of the wing. Each plane is different. The empty
CG in inches will probably be within a couple inches of the actual main
gears axles'. Now sit in the pilot's seat and repeat the process, back
calulating the actual movement aft of the loaded CG vs the empty CG,
therefore you'll get the actual ARM of the pilot's seat. Do the same for
the passenger seat and back calculate the ARM of the passenger. Do the same
for fuel added and back calculate. Etc. Do back calculation technique for
each moveable thing to be added to the empty plane, to get the safe range
for flying loaded CG. Make a chart for your plane and stay within the safe
loaded CG range for flying. You'll need help so get someone from the local
EAA chapter to help and maybe they have nice accurate scales you can use for
these needed weighings. The only variable in the above procedure is the
fact that the Piete traditional wing may have less than the 25-33% of chord
tolerances for safe loaded flying.
Good luck
Gordon Bowen
----- Original Message -----
From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 4:03 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List:weight and balance
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
>
> I have searched through the drawings and have come up empty as to the
> balance locations on the aircraft for a weight and balance.The AME has
> asked me to get in touch with the web to find out what these
> are.Thankyou in advance for any info you can provide.
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both |
I agree with Chuck completely. Gluing directly to the ribs cause some
distortions in the wing later on. Leading and trailing edges only.
We have also had a lot of those nasty winds in Minnesota also.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: you seen one wing, you seen em' both
In a message dated 5/28/2006 8:09:10 PM Central Standard Time,
at7000ft@gmail.com writes:
Did you glue (poly-tak) the fabric to the bottom of each rib, or is
it best to wait till you rib stitch to pull the bottom fabric up to the
undercambered ribs?
Rick,
Allow me to jump in here. You should NOT glue the fabric to the
bottom (or top) of the wing ribs, or when you shrink the fabric it could
warp the ribs. The Stits method says the fabric will shrink by 10%.
The way I did it, was to glue the fabric on the bottom first, then
the top, then the wing tips, keeping the wrinkles out. I clamped the
fabric in place with spring clamps and cloths pins. Then did the
leading and trailing edge tapes, then do a fabric shrink with 75% to
80%of the suggested heat setting, then rib stitch - pulling the fabric
up in the undercambered portion, then the final 100% of the full max
suggested heat setting - keeping a close eye on the temp of the iron,
then tape over the the stitches. You can hear the fabric moving all
over the place when you shrink it. The stitches are closer together in
the prop was area, plus one rib each side. I used just over 500
stitches !!
Chuck G.
NX770CG
http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html
Too windy to fly in the Land of Oz...I wonder if anyone ever did a
takeoff - going in reverse !!
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: you seen one wing, you seen em' both |
Several times, when I was active hang glider pilot. Sometimes we needed 3 wire
men, at count of 3 they let go and the take off was straight up and backwards
with the bar pulled all the way, around 2,000 ft/m.
Severe turbulence and high winds, where a must and piece of cake (about 20 years
ago)...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Twice National Champion in HG (Mex)..
Now Flying in good weather from Chapala, Mexico.
Rcaprd@aol.com wrote:
snip
Chuck G.
NX770CG
http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html
Too windy to fly in the Land of Oz...I wonder if anyone ever did a takeoff -
going in reverse !!
---------------------------------
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