---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/06/06: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:36 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/05/06 (Graham and Robyn) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/05/06 (Jack T. Textor) 3. 04:42 AM - Re: Kevlar Drag Wires (Tom Bernie) 4. 05:30 AM - Re: carb (Phillips, Jack) 5. 11:51 AM - Re: Wing root rib (Barry Davis) 6. 12:54 PM - Model-A carb mounting (Carl Vought) 7. 12:59 PM - Re: Wing root rib (Jack T. Textor) 8. 02:27 PM - Re: Wing root rib (walt evans) 9. 05:54 PM - Re: carb (Dick Navratil) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:49 AM PST US From: "Graham and Robyn" Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/05/06 --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham and Robyn" Would some one give me the recent web site listing Piet Accidents & Incidents, Thanks Graham Hewitt -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pietenpol-List Digest Server Sent: Tuesday, 6 June 2006 2:57 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/05/06 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list/Digest.Pietenpol-List.200 6-06-05.html Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list/Digest.Pietenpol-List.200 6-06-05.txt =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/05/06: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:43 AM - carb (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 07:00 AM - Wing root rib (Egan, John) 3. 08:55 AM - Re: Kevlar Drag Wires (Tom Bernie) 4. 09:36 AM - Re: carb (Gary Gower) 5. 10:16 AM - Re: carb (Barry Davis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:17 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: carb --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" >I dont know if there are this type of spring shops in USA No, Gary... so I'd better go down to Guadalajara to get a spring ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:30 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing root rib From: "Egan, John" Hello all, I believe I am 99% finished with the wing construction as I have the entire wing and ailerons assembled, glued, and sanded, with the exception of the wing root rib installation. Over the weekend, I dry =66it the plywood pieces and the flat steel strap wing brackets on the root ends of the spars. I have the spars, plywood and fittings drilled and loosely bolted but not glued. I will need to add a final rib near the end of the spars and I have been hesitating on this. My question is: Does the end rib get the vertical member cut away where it would overlap the flat steel wing bracket=3F When I made the rib, I offset the vertical member the same thickness as the plywood with the intent to cut away the area for the steel strap. A person could also build that first rib with a solid sheet of plywood on the outside to have a nice flat surface to glue the fabric to. I'm sure there are many good solutions, and I am interested to hear some other options. After I get this last rib on, I can then add varnish. Thanks, John Greenville, Wi. This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contai n privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:19 AM PST US From: "Tom Bernie" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Tom Bernie" Hans, I got the following reply from Phillystran -- "There are 2 versions of the 2100 product: The original version is the HPTG 2100 made from parallel Kevlar 49 yarn with en extruded PE jacket. The modulus for that item would be 17.5x10E6 psi (conditioned rope value). In 1990 a second generation product was introduced known as HPTG2100I. Also made from the Kevlar 49 but a stranded resin impregnated rope with extruded PU jacket. Modulus is 15.0x10E6 psi. The HPTG-I version is an inventoried item whereas the HPTG is made to order with a 5K min. Kenneth Knight PHILLYSTRAN, INC. Manager, Industrial Sales 215-368-6611 *107 fax: 215-362-7956 cell: 267-614-5623 kknight@phillystran.com" Is 15.0x10E6 psi a useful value in determining the cable usefulness? Regards, Tom Bernie -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander Voort Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Tom, I googled the elasticity modulus Kevlar 49 has a elasticity modulus of 120 Gpa Carbon Steel has a elasticity modulus of 210 Gpa The higher the number the lower the elasticity. Kevlar has a higher fatigue life than steel, due to being more elastic. Probably Kevlar would be more suited as use in bracing wires, where there is a lot of vibration, or control cables where there is a lot of bending. Inside the wing with no turbulence and no bending I would not use it, the additional stretching might exceed the limits of the wood structure. Then again the certified aircraft builders Boeing and Airbus seem to use Kevlar in secondary structures, why not in primary ? Hans Tom Bernie To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires 06/02/2006 02:38 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Tom Bernie Hans, The tower instructions call for tensioning to 15% breaking strength then under that load it relaxes to 10% over a period of 30 days. Tower builders seem to consider it equivalent to galvanized. I'm trying to get elasticity or dymanic stretching data. It weighs nothing and at .22" dia and 2100# breaking strength, it costs $.59 @ foot. Regards, Tom Bernie -----Original Message----- >From: Hans Vander Voort >Sent: Jun 2, 2006 1:55 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Cc: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com, pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort > >Too elastic ? > >Hans > > > "Tom Bernie" > nk.net> To > Sent by: > owner-pietenpol-l cc > ist-server@matron > ics.com Subject > Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires > > 06/02/2006 11:22 > AM > > > Please respond to > pietenpol-list@ma > tronics.com > > > > >Folks, > > >Anybody have any thoughts about the advisability of using Kevlar cable >(Phillystran) for Drag/Anti Drag wires? On the surface, the physical >properties look great. > > >Thanks, > > >Tom Bernie > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:41 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb Sure, Welcome! Any time will be great. Also if you like, I can get you a couple and send them to you. Just need to get a feeling of the spring this next Saturday at the Club, The spring shop is about 5 blocks from my factory, so no big deal to get it. There they made the spring that we used for towing in my hang gliding days, (20 years ago) also the springs for my Ladder Pou landing gear and lots of others. Just go there and tell them how much force needed and how much the travel of the spring. two or 3 days later is ready. Saludos Gary Gower. Oscar Zuniga wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" >I dont know if there are this type of spring shops in USA No, Gary... so I'd better go down to Guadalajara to get a spring ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:16 AM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb I know quiet a few pilots that have the "spring" on their carbs. I thought about it and came up with a few observations. I think the cable would probably break when you PULL the throttle to closed and put tension on the cable. I don't think it would make sense for a cable to break by PUSHING it through the jacket. If it broke inside the jacket, it seems that it would still push through, but might be harder than normal due to frayed ends. This would leave the throttle on Open. If the cable came off the carb lever by breakage or the bolt wearing thru or falling out, then adding a very soft spring would be the best idea in the world and you would be patting yourself on the back for a long time after landing successfully. If the spring is heavy, you will experience throttle creep and will be constantly adjusting the throttle, it also puts a constant strain on the cable. Look at the hardware stores or on the internet and look for a spring with at least 1/2" diameter and very soft and pulls very easily. If the ends are not long enough, an extender can be made from med to heavy safety tie wire and anchored somewhere on the engine, not to the motor mount to isolate constant vibration. My 172 has one, but the 150 that I own with a partner does not. Go figure. Our Piets are not flying yet. We just replaced the cable on the 150 and it had several thousand hours on it. It was not having a problem, but replacement seemed like cheap insurance, especially if our kids take it out for a spin. If you ever feel a binding in the throttle, even just once, it is time to take a look at that cable. By being a stranded cable, usually one or two strands will break first and cause some friction. Consider this your fair warning. You need to have in mind a plan to cope with this type of emergency. Either turn the engine switch on and off and blow the ends out of the mufflers or get into a safe position at the airport, shut the engine down and do a dead stick landing. Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:03 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: carb Has anyone installed a spring on the Stromberg carb to bring it to full open in case of a linkage failure in flight? I went out flying today, using a runway with no good emergency landing spots on the departure end. Sitting around the hangar chatting later, that subject came up and it sounded like a good idea. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:04 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: RE: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/05/06 From: "Jack T. Textor" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack T. Textor" That would be Chuck G's, www.nx770cg.com. Great site! Jack Textor Would some one give me the recent web site listing Piet Accidents & Incidents, Thanks Graham Hewitt ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:41 AM PST US From: "Tom Bernie" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Tom Bernie" Group, I received this generous and informative email. "I'm not on the Pietenpol List, but I am on the Kolb List, and went browsing this morning. Saw this discussion and your email address and if you care to pass this along, feel free to do so. I am both an aerospace structural analyst and a sailor, as well as owning a Cessna Skywagon and Kolb Firestar. In the multihull sailing world, we often use what we call the "high-tech" ropes for rigging. 1. They all have varying degrees of UV resistance. Covering extends that. With no data available, I'd guess that the UV protection for the wing covering would suffice for the drag and anti-drag cables, if you used Kevlar or other ropes for that, and especially if you used covered rope. 2. The applicable ropes are Vectran, Dyneema, or one of the aramids like Kevlar (another is Technora). They all have roughly the Young's modulus of about five million psi, so their area will have to be increased to have the same stiffness performance as steel cable. Interestingly enough, steel cable has an effective Young's modulus of about 11 million - so if the rope is twice the area, or about 50% bigger nominal diameter, it's equivalent stiffness to the steel cable. Remember that solid tie rods have a Young's modulus of about 29 million psi, so if you're replacing those, you'll need about 2 1/2 times the diameter for the rope. 3. All these ropes creep. The initial creep is the most severe. People typically make the end terminations and then apply a large load for about 12 hours to prestretch them. If the prestretch tension is greater than the limit load (limit load is the maximum load the rope will ever see in service, without any safety factors - the real load) it should not creep much after that in that load range. Dyneema has the most creep, the aramids next, and Vectran the least. 4. The various rope manufacturers publish splicing information, and you can buy "sailmaker's thimbles" for the ends. The "Brummel" splice is easy to make, and makes a neat eye at the end. Knots, in general, fail at 50% of the ropes breaking load or less. Use only splices for the rope cables you make. 5. The end terminations, from the eye to the aircraft, can be made by lashing thin rope multiple times. Get something like 1/16" Vectran single braid and tie it to the aircraft. Make the rope cable itself with both eyes spliced in, but make it about six inches short. Lace the small line from the aircraft through the rope cable eye and back to the aircraft, repeating several times, and finally pull tight and tie a knot in it to terminate it. Since each strand of the small rope is only minimally loaded, the knot is practical. 6. In one case on my trimaran, I placed a turnbuckle between the hull and the small rope lashing. Once the final knot was made, the turnbuckle provided adjustment. This might be most suitable for rope cables - and you could even skip the lashing, with the final assembly being the aircraft fitting, the rope, and the turnbuckle to the other aircraft fitting. But the lashing does allow take-up of large gaps. 7. Ensure that you avoid chafe. 8. Sources are www.layline.com, Annapolis Performance Sailing, and West Marine. 9. Splicing links are: http://www.neropes.com/splice/default.htm http://www.samsonrope.com/home/recmarine/splicing/index.cfm http://www.yalecordage.com/html/splicing_instructions.html Good luck! David Paule" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Bernie Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 11:54 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Tom Bernie" Hans, I got the following reply from Phillystran -- "There are 2 versions of the 2100 product: The original version is the HPTG 2100 made from parallel Kevlar 49 yarn with en extruded PE jacket. The modulus for that item would be 17.5x10E6 psi (conditioned rope value). In 1990 a second generation product was introduced known as HPTG2100I. Also made from the Kevlar 49 but a stranded resin impregnated rope with extruded PU jacket. Modulus is 15.0x10E6 psi. The HPTG-I version is an inventoried item whereas the HPTG is made to order with a 5K min. Kenneth Knight PHILLYSTRAN, INC. Manager, Industrial Sales 215-368-6611 *107 fax: 215-362-7956 cell: 267-614-5623 kknight@phillystran.com" Is 15.0x10E6 psi a useful value in determining the cable usefulness? Regards, Tom Bernie -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander Voort Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Tom, I googled the elasticity modulus Kevlar 49 has a elasticity modulus of 120 Gpa Carbon Steel has a elasticity modulus of 210 Gpa The higher the number the lower the elasticity. Kevlar has a higher fatigue life than steel, due to being more elastic. Probably Kevlar would be more suited as use in bracing wires, where there is a lot of vibration, or control cables where there is a lot of bending. Inside the wing with no turbulence and no bending I would not use it, the additional stretching might exceed the limits of the wood structure. Then again the certified aircraft builders Boeing and Airbus seem to use Kevlar in secondary structures, why not in primary ? Hans Tom Bernie To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires 06/02/2006 02:38 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Tom Bernie Hans, The tower instructions call for tensioning to 15% breaking strength then under that load it relaxes to 10% over a period of 30 days. Tower builders seem to consider it equivalent to galvanized. I'm trying to get elasticity or dymanic stretching data. It weighs nothing and at .22" dia and 2100# breaking strength, it costs $.59 @ foot. Regards, Tom Bernie -----Original Message----- >From: Hans Vander Voort >Sent: Jun 2, 2006 1:55 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Cc: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com, pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort > >Too elastic ? > >Hans > > > "Tom Bernie" > nk.net> To > Sent by: > owner-pietenpol-l cc > ist-server@matron > ics.com Subject > Pietenpol-List: Kevlar Drag Wires > > 06/02/2006 11:22 > AM > > > Please respond to > pietenpol-list@ma > tronics.com > > > > >Folks, > > >Anybody have any thoughts about the advisability of using Kevlar cable >(Phillystran) for Drag/Anti Drag wires? On the surface, the physical >properties look great. > > >Thanks, > > >Tom Bernie > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:58 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: carb From: "Phillips, Jack" When I was at Brodhead last year, and preparing on Sunday to fly to the "other fly-in" to the northeast, John Hoffmann gave me a prop and I pushed the throttle forward to taxi to the runway. Nothing. The engine sat there at idle. I shut it down and we investigated and found the bolt attaching the throttle levers to the cable had come loose, so it can and will happen. In my case, to prevent that occurance it would require a pretty heavy spring at the carburetor. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Davis Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:14 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb I know quiet a few pilots that have the "spring" on their carbs. I thought about it and came up with a few observations. I think the cable would probably break when you PULL the throttle to closed and put tension on the cable. I don't think it would make sense for a cable to break by PUSHING it through the jacket. If it broke inside the jacket, it seems that it would still push through, but might be harder than normal due to frayed ends. This would leave the throttle on Open. If the cable came off the carb lever by breakage or the bolt wearing thru or falling out, then adding a very soft spring would be the best idea in the world and you would be patting yourself on the back for a long time after landing successfully. If the spring is heavy, you will experience throttle creep and will be constantly adjusting the throttle, it also puts a constant strain on the cable. Look at the hardware stores or on the internet and look for a spring with at least 1/2" diameter and very soft and pulls very easily. If the ends are not long enough, an extender can be made from med to heavy safety tie wire and anchored somewhere on the engine, not to the motor mount to isolate constant vibration. My 172 has one, but the 150 that I own with a partner does not. Go figure. Our Piets are not flying yet. We just replaced the cable on the 150 and it had several thousand hours on it. It was not having a problem, but replacement seemed like cheap insurance, especially if our kids take it out for a spin. If you ever feel a binding in the throttle, even just once, it is time to take a look at that cable. By being a stranded cable, usually one or two strands will break first and cause some friction. Consider this your fair warning. You need to have in mind a plan to cope with this type of emergency. Either turn the engine switch on and off and blow the ends out of the mufflers or get into a safe position at the airport, shut the engine down and do a dead stick landing. Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:03 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: carb Has anyone installed a spring on the Stromberg carb to bring it to full open in case of a linkage failure in flight? I went out flying today, using a runway with no good emergency landing spots on the departure end. Sitting around the hangar chatting later, that subject came up and it sounded like a good idea. Dick N. Cardinal Health -- Working together. For life. (sm) _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese - Svenska: www.cardinalhealth.com/legal/email ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:51:44 AM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing root rib Yes, the uprights must be ground to fit over the wing attach fittings. You can add another one beside what's left after it is on the wing. As for the solid plywood cap, it is not necessary and will add weight. The fabric will be glued to the piece of ply on top and bottom of the end ribs and that is enough. Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Egan, John To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:58 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing root rib Hello all, I believe I am 99% finished with the wing construction as I have the entire wing and ailerons assembled, glued, and sanded, with the exception of the wing root rib installation. Over the weekend, I dry fit the plywood pieces and the flat steel strap wing brackets on the root ends of the spars. I have the spars, plywood and fittings drilled and loosely bolted but not glued. I will need to add a final rib near the end of the spars and I have been hesitating on this. My question is: Does the end rib get the vertical member cut away where it would overlap the flat steel wing bracket? When I made the rib, I offset the vertical member the same thickness as the plywood with the intent to cut away the area for the steel strap. A person could also build that first rib with a solid sheet of plywood on the outside to have a nice flat surface to glue the fabric to. I'm sure there are many good solutions, and I am interested to hear some other options. After I get this last rib on, I can then add varnish. Thanks, John Greenville, Wi. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:06 PM PST US From: "Carl Vought" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model-A carb mounting I apologize in advance for the lengthy post, but I'm working on my Model-A's intake manifold and this question keeps coming up.The plans call for the removal of a wedge from the intake manifold of about 3/16" which introduces a "tilt" in the carb's "working angle" of some 7 degrees. I don't understand why. Maybe someone out there can enlighten me...I hope so. The engine was designed to go into the automobile frame with the PTO (transmission) end of the engine lower than the "front" of the engine by three degrees. The lubrication of the stock engine (largely gravity fed) was designed to function at that engine attitude. Notwithstanding the modifications that have been made to the engine's lubrication system for Pietenpol application, it makes good sense to install it in the airplane at the angle it was originally designed to operate at...which Mr. Pietenpol did. The engine bearers introduce a nose-down "tilt" of one inch in 22 inches or a little over 2.6 degrees.This being the case, it would seem that in lever flight, there would be no interest at all in inclining the carb from it's original factory position. When the airplane is resting on it's gear, however, depending upon the gear configuration, it's in a nose-high attitude of some twelve or so degrees. The way the carb is "tilted" does tend to reduce this angle somewhat, making the float sit at a more normal angle. But is this important enough to upset the mounting of the carb at cruise attitude? Without the "tilt", would a nose-high tilt of 12 degrees cause the carb to leak gas when it's on the ground? Somebody please help me out here...Thanks...Carl Vought ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:25 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing root rib From: "Jack T. Textor" John or Barry.... Would you have a picture of what you are describing? Jack Textor ________________________________ Yes, the uprights must be ground to fit over the wing attach fittings. You can add another one beside what's left after it is on the wing. As for the solid plywood cap, it is not necessary and will add weight. The fabric will be glued to the piece of ply on top and bottom of the end ribs and that is enough. Barry Hello all, I believe I am 99% finished with the wing construction as I have the entire wing and ailerons assembled, glued, and sanded, with the exception of the wing root rib installation. Over the weekend, I dry fit the plywood pieces and the flat steel strap wing brackets on the root ends of the spars. I have the spars, plywood and fittings drilled and loosely bolted but not glued. I will need to add a final rib near the end of the spars and I have been hesitating on this. My question is: Does the end rib get the vertical member cut away where it would overlap the flat steel wing bracket? When I made the rib, I offset the vertical member the same thickness as the plywood with the intent to cut away the area for the steel strap. A person could also build that first rib with a solid sheet of plywood on the outside to have a nice flat surface to glue the fabric to. I'm sure there are many good solutions, and I am interested to hear some other options. After I get this last rib on, I can then add varnish. Thanks, John Greenville, Wi. ________________________________ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:07 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing root rib John, Yeah, you have to cut away some stuff. Just remember that the verticals weren't even on the original prints. They were added so to make it easy to get all the ribs lined up evenly. I didn't cap the end of the rib with ply, no need and adds weight. It does need the extra structure pieces which the root and the tip ribs have. Also the root ribs need the 2" wide ply on top and bottom to prevent distortion from the fabric. I covered the wing root with fabric with an overlap on the 2" ply, the brought the top and bottom fabric over the ends to get the required 1" overlap. walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Egan, John To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:58 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing root rib Hello all, I believe I am 99% finished with the wing construction as I have the entire wing and ailerons assembled, glued, and sanded, with the exception of the wing root rib installation. Over the weekend, I dry fit the plywood pieces and the flat steel strap wing brackets on the root ends of the spars. I have the spars, plywood and fittings drilled and loosely bolted but not glued. I will need to add a final rib near the end of the spars and I have been hesitating on this. My question is: Does the end rib get the vertical member cut away where it would overlap the flat steel wing bracket? When I made the rib, I offset the vertical member the same thickness as the plywood with the intent to cut away the area for the steel strap. A person could also build that first rib with a solid sheet of plywood on the outside to have a nice flat surface to glue the fabric to. I'm sure there are many good solutions, and I am interested to hear some other options. After I get this last rib on, I can then add varnish. Thanks, John Greenville, Wi. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:39 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb Jack I was hoping you would respond. I was thinking of your problem at Brodhead when I posted. If you would have lost that bolt in flight maybe even a lighter spring could have given you power to find a landing site??? If the bolt had departed as in your case on start up and the spring opened the carb before start, the idler jets should be cut off and the engine hopefully would not start. Just a few thoughts Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:29 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: carb When I was at Brodhead last year, and preparing on Sunday to fly to the "other fly-in" to the northeast, John Hoffmann gave me a prop and I pushed the throttle forward to taxi to the runway. Nothing. The engine sat there at idle. I shut it down and we investigated and found the bolt attaching the throttle levers to the cable had come loose, so it can and will happen. In my case, to prevent that occurance it would require a pretty heavy spring at the carburetor. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Davis Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:14 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb I know quiet a few pilots that have the "spring" on their carbs. I thought about it and came up with a few observations. I think the cable would probably break when you PULL the throttle to closed and put tension on the cable. I don't think it would make sense for a cable to break by PUSHING it through the jacket. If it broke inside the jacket, it seems that it would still push through, but might be harder than normal due to frayed ends. This would leave the throttle on Open. If the cable came off the carb lever by breakage or the bolt wearing thru or falling out, then adding a very soft spring would be the best idea in the world and you would be patting yourself on the back for a long time after landing successfully. If the spring is heavy, you will experience throttle creep and will be constantly adjusting the throttle, it also puts a constant strain on the cable. Look at the hardware stores or on the internet and look for a spring with at least 1/2" diameter and very soft and pulls very easily. If the ends are not long enough, an extender can be made from med to heavy safety tie wire and anchored somewhere on the engine, not to the motor mount to isolate constant vibration. My 172 has one, but the 150 that I own with a partner does not. Go figure. Our Piets are not flying yet. We just replaced the cable on the 150 and it had several thousand hours on it. It was not having a problem, but replacement seemed like cheap insurance, especially if our kids take it out for a spin. If you ever feel a binding in the throttle, even just once, it is time to take a look at that cable. By being a stranded cable, usually one or two strands will break first and cause some friction. Consider this your fair warning. You need to have in mind a plan to cope with this type of emergency. Either turn the engine switch on and off and blow the ends out of the mufflers or get into a safe position at the airport, shut the engine down and do a dead stick landing. Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:03 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: carb Has anyone installed a spring on the Stromberg carb to bring it to full open in case of a linkage failure in flight? I went out flying today, using a runway with no good emergency landing spots on the departure end. Sitting around the hangar chatting later, that subject came up and it sounded like a good idea. Dick N. Cardinal Health -- Working together. For life. (sm) _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese - Svenska: www.cardinalhealth.com/legal/email