Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:28 AM - Re: Re: Copyright Law (Clif Dawson)
2. 02:23 AM - newsletter ()
3. 05:20 AM - Congratulations, Douwe ! (Michael D Cuy)
4. 05:20 AM - Re: lady passengers (Ed G.)
5. 06:06 AM - Re: grant maclaren contact info (Jim Markle)
6. 07:30 AM - 3rd flight report (Michael D Cuy)
7. 07:46 AM - Re: newsletter (Glenn Thomas)
8. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: Copyright Law (Mike Volckmann)
9. 09:27 AM - Re: grant maclaren contact info (Barry Davis)
10. 09:31 AM - Re: newsletter (Rick Holland)
11. 09:46 AM - Re: 3rd flight report ()
12. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Copyright Law (bike.mike)
13. 10:19 AM - Re: 3rd flight report (Bill Church)
14. 10:31 AM - Re: newsletter (Mark Blackwell)
15. 10:43 AM - clear answers from Mike Hardaway (Michael D Cuy)
16. 10:59 AM - Re: dye for dope (Gordon Bowen)
17. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: Copyright Law (Bill Church)
18. 11:59 AM - Re: clear answers from Mike Hardaway (Glenn Thomas)
19. 12:24 PM - Re: saving time (Glenn Thomas)
20. 12:26 PM - Re: 3rd flight report ()
21. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: clear answers from Mike Hardaway (Rick Holland)
22. 02:48 PM - you're in good company here Rick Holland ! (Michael D Cuy)
23. 03:39 PM - rain rain go away (walt evans)
24. 03:49 PM - Re: you're in good company here Rick Holland ! (Rick Holland)
25. 03:54 PM - Re: rain rain go away (Rick Holland)
26. 05:08 PM - Re: rain rain go away (Steve Eldredge)
27. 06:13 PM - Copyrite (Plncrzy3@netscape.net)
28. 08:56 PM - Re: Copyright (Mark Blackwell)
29. 09:15 PM - Tailwheel and steering (Richard Schreiber)
30. 09:16 PM - Re: 3rd flight report (gcardinal)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Copyright Law |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
As a painter and sculptor, when I sell a painting
or sculpture, the only thing I sell is the physical
object itself. I retain the right of copy unless
specifically agreed upon to do otherwise. There
have been cases of the purchaser making
prints of a painting and making copies of a
sculpture where the artist has discovered it
and taken the "owner" to court. In every case
I know of the artist has recovered damages
and the perpetuator penalized.
A few years ago a local artist saw a painting
by another artist that incorporated a small
part of one of his paintings. He successfully
sued. The notoriety was beneficial to BOTH
artists!
A publication such as the BPA or a magazine
may print things submitted by outside parties,
such as you and I, or by their own employed
writers. The first is like my painting, the second
belongs to the publication.There is more to it,
however. If the publication solicits your
services to write something for them then you
have been employed and the work is theirs. If
you submit an unsolicited article on a subject
of your choice with the idea that it may be of
interest to their readers and they buy it from
you then you retain the rights unless you
explicitly sign them away in some fashion, as
Mark has said.
In the case of the BPA we have no idea what
the original contractual agreement was for any
given article. It's no use speculating or assuming
anything either. If you copy the entire newsletter
then that, regardless of what it's comprised of, is
an entity unto itself and owned by the publisher
or, more likely, the company or individual that
owns the publishing company.
The answer is to write your own. Suppose you
want to pass on some important information about
a topic such as standard spin recovery techniques
that you think would be beneficial to the rest of us
Peiters.
In this case the facts are the facts, do this, do that, do
the other thing and you come out the bottom straight.
Copy the original and you break the law. Take those
facts, write about them in your own words and phrases,
and THAT document is yours even though the reader
comes away with exactly the same knowledge from
either article.
Notes from the Convoluted Universe, Clif
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mark Blackwell"
> <markb1958@verizon.net>
>
> There is one thing though that might come up. Publishing an article in a
> mag doesn't necessarily give the copyright to the editor or publisher. It
> would depend on how the agreement was written. A publication may be given
> "one time use rights" which only allows the publication in that months
> issue. A magazine can claim a copyright for that issue, but may or may
> not hold the copyright for the work itself. The newsletter claiming
> copyright, in reality might not have it, but that wouldn't necessarily
> meant if fell into public domain either.
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:24 PM
Message 2
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <lnawms@fuse.net>
How about if everyone stops picking on Grant, who was probably the greatest boon
to Pietenpols in the last 20 years, and move forward. If you think that you
have to pirate articles from his newsletters to have material for a new newsletter
maybe the whole idea should be scrapped.
Larry
Message 3
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| Subject: | Congratulations, Douwe ! |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Gosh that is great news to hear, Douwe about you passing your FAA private
pilot checkride. Way to go, brother.
I hope your first passenger will be (or was) your wife as she seems very
supportive of you and your project and flying after being
able to visit with you last year at Brodhead. Excellent news !!!!!
Mike C.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: lady passengers |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed G." <flyboy_120@hotmail.com>
How about a temporary stick-on plackard on the inside of the passenger
compartment.....Max. passenger wgt. capacity 185 lbs.... or whatever weight
brings you to your particular max. wt. comfort zone. My guess is most people
never think that that poor little Piet is going to strain it's guts trying
to haul their 300lb butt into the air...a placard would be a polite way to
let them know. AND...If you set the wt. low enough the only ones that would
qualify is the petite ladies!!!!!!! Just a thought..Ed G.
>From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: lady passengers
>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 19:00:47 -0500
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
>
>Which begs the question:
>
>How do you politely and delicately decline the request of a ride from
>someone who is on the "portly" side without sounding like a pompous jerk?
>
>Greg C.
>
>----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 10:51 AM
>
>
>>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
>><Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>>
>>
>>Ah yes, Oscar----tis not only appealing but prudent during high density
>>operations with somewhat marginally
>>
>>powered airplanes to seek out the thinner willing passengers at a fly-in,
>>not the big heavy beer-belly guys (like me)
>>
>>who always seem to gravitate to an airplane that was originally designed
>>to carry people of smaller stature from the
>>
>>depression era. My choice of passengers is clearly one that takes into
>>account safety first: beauty and appeal of
>>
>>those passengers does happen to be a spin-off most times tho !
>>
>>Mike C.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>>http://wiki.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: grant maclaren contact info |
GMacLaren@aol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 7:54 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: grant maclaren contact info
Can someone get me Grant MacClaren's contact info?
Regardless of past experiences, I'd like to contact him to at least
get his advice on what it takes to run a good newsletter. He certainly
did a great one for a long time.
Thanks,
Douwe
Message 6
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| Subject: | 3rd flight report |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Way to go, Greg.
Now you have first-hand experience of what we speak of in flying a Piet on
windy, bumpy, turbulent days---plus you have a tailskid to contend
with, a whole new level of flying in a Piet. Good going--I'm glad you
got that one under your belt. It really helps build confidence to fly in
conditions like that so that in the event the weather gets windy on you or
bumpy, you've already been there, experienced that.
Mike C.
Message 7
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
Congrats on the license!
I'd love to participate in this newsletter project. I've got internet programming
and database skills and would love to contribute to something that provides
unity and comraderie in the Piet community. I set my own website up as a log
that I simply type in progress through a user interface. There are only a couple
of pages and it's simple to keep up-to-date. I'd be happy to retool the
design for a newsletter format.
Let me know.
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=43120#43120
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Copyright Law |
I stand corrected on the copyright issue. I was working from knowledge that I
had gotten from a group of authors here in Phoenix.
Dick,
Is there a way to check on the existence of a copyright on the old BPA news letters
with out dealing with Grant McClaren? It sounds like he wants to control
the information by bluff and maybe does or maybe does not have the legal authority
to control this information. If he does not it would be good to have it
out and readily available to the pietenpol community.
Mike
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 7:26:57 AM
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
Dick,
Thanks for the clarification, I thought this was the case, having
some friends who publish in the music business, but my personal
experience is not there, so I could not authoratatively reply to Mike.
So, my original question stands, does Grant McClaren hold a copyright
for the old issues of the BPA newsletter that he edited or not?
Where's the proof?
I have heard that he has been quite belligerent towards anyone who
has wanted to reprint material, but to my knowledge, he has not
presented any proof to anyone that he holds such a copyright. As I
said before, all of my old copies have absolutely no mention anywhere
in them that the material is copyrighted or that a copyright has been
applied for. In fact, I think that the fact that he put in a
statement that the material is intended for BPA members leads me to
believe that the material IS NOT copyrighted & that he put that
statement there to try to cover his ass without going to the trouble
of getting one, and perhaps as a C-H-A for liability as well.
The reason that I'm making an issue of this is that there is a true
wealth of information in those old issues & it should be available to
the community, not hoarded by Grant as if he were some kind of troll
guarding a treasure.
Kip Gardner
At 1:07 PM +0000 6/25/06, flywrite@hughes.net wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "flywrite@hughes.net"
><flywrite@hughes.net>
>
>As a magazine publisher with some experience with copyrights, I believe
>someone has misinformed Mike Volckermann about copyright law. The U.S.
>Patent and Copyright Office (www.uspto.gov) does not automatically
>issue a copyright, nor does any other agency do so. Indeed, a copyright
>can be issued only after the applicant has filed an application, paid
>the requisite fee, and the application referred to an examiner. If the
>examiner finds the application acceptable in its own right, and does
>not infringe upon any other copyright, a certificate of copyright can
>be issued. No one can claim that anything is, or has been, copyrighted
>unless a certificate has been issued to cover the specific material for
>which the copyright is claimed. However, if an applicaton has been
>filed, the claimant can use the term "Copyright applied for" to alert
>would-be users of the material to the danger of copyright
>violation/prosecution.
>
>This has nothing to do per se with the Broadhead newsletter. However,
>if the claim is being made that any or all of the newsletters are
>covered by a copyright, then an unexpired (or renewed) USPTO copyright
>document to that effect would settle the matter once and for all.
>In the absence of such a document, I believe a patent attorney would
>advise that the material is in the public domain.
>
>Dick Carden
>
>
--
North Canton, OH
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: grant maclaren contact info |
Please don't take the advice from him on asking for dues for several
years in advance then promptly stop the newsletter. I'm still out three
years dues. I hope that the $36.00 made him really happy.
Barry Davis
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:54 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: grant maclaren contact info
Can someone get me Grant MacClaren's contact info?
Regardless of past experiences, I'd like to contact him to at least
get his advice on what it takes to run a good newsletter. He certainly
did a great one for a long time.
Thanks,
Douwe
Message 10
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If a new newsletter is started how about if it specifically states that the
material is not copyrighted and is in the public domain? This way we can
avoid the same thing happening again where a wealth of good infomation is
lost forever to future Piet builders as Grant takes "his" Piet newsletters
to the grave.
Rick
On 6/26/06, lnawms@fuse.net <lnawms@fuse.net> wrote:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <lnawms@fuse.net>
>
> How about if everyone stops picking on Grant, who was probably the
> greatest boon to Pietenpols in the last 20 years, and move forward. If you
> think that you have to pirate articles from his newsletters to have material
> for a new newsletter maybe the whole idea should be scrapped.
>
> Larry
>
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 11
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| Subject: | 3rd flight report |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
I have to ask;why a tail skid when we have wheels that can be so much
more manageable?Why look for trouble?
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Sent: June 26, 2006 10:29 AM
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
<Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Way to go, Greg.
Now you have first-hand experience of what we speak of in flying a Piet
on
windy, bumpy, turbulent days---plus you have a tailskid to contend
with, a whole new level of flying in a Piet. Good going--I'm glad you
got that one under your belt. It really helps build confidence to fly
in
conditions like that so that in the event the weather gets windy on you
or
bumpy, you've already been there, experienced that.
Mike C.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Copyright Law |
There is ALWAYS an inherent copyright with any original material.
Anything composed, written, strung together or otherwise originated by a
human being in the US is protected, to some degree or other, by law.
Even these emails have (to a very minor degree) legal protection under
copyright law.
A Copyright is not like a Patent.
A patent must be applied for and issued to protect an inventor's
intellectual property. A patent that is not applied for within a year
of making the invention public in some way is forever waived.
A Copyright does not have to be applied for nor does it have to be
registered. A Copyright is always attached to a composed work and,
resulting from the work of the late California congressman Sonny Bono,
now lasts for 70 years after the death of the author*. If it is
registered, a high level presumption exists that any illicit copier had
"notice", i.e., KNEW that the material was someone else's work.
What you are actually asking is whether the original authors of works
reproduced in the BPA gave control over subsequent reproduction of their
work to Grant MacLaren or if it was a one-time submission. Only Grant
or the original authors can tell you that.
Maybe, just maybe, Grant wants to protect the rights of the original
authors of articles contributed to the BPA newsletter and can't take the
time to do your research for you. Not only does Grant have authority to
control reproduction of works submitted to him for the BPA newsletter,
he may have a legal obligation to.
Mike Hardaway
* I believe most of the BPA material pre-dates the Sonny Bono Copyright
Term Extension Act 70 year rule, so are protected for 50 years after
author's death.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Volckmann
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Copyright Law
I stand corrected on the copyright issue. I was working from
knowledge that I had gotten from a group of authors here in Phoenix.
Dick,
Is there a way to check on the existence of a copyright on the old BPA
news letters with out dealing with Grant McClaren? It sounds like he
wants to control the information by bluff and maybe does or maybe does
not have the legal authority to control this information. If he does
not it would be good to have it out and readily available to the
pietenpol community.
Mike
----- Original Message ----
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 7:26:57 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Copyright Law
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip and Beth Gardner
<kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
Dick,
Thanks for the clarification, I thought this was the case, having
some friends who publish in the music business, but my personal
experience is not there, so I could not authoratatively reply to Mike.
So, my original question stands, does Grant McClaren hold a copyright
for the old issues of the BPA newsletter that he edited or not?
Where's the proof?
I have heard that he has been quite belligerent towards anyone who
has wanted to reprint material, but to my knowledge, he has not
presented any proof to anyone that he holds such a copyright. As I
said before, all of my old copies have absolutely no mention anywhere
in them that the material is copyrighted or that a copyright has been
applied for. In fact, I think that the fact that he put in a
statement that the material is intended for BPA members leads me to
believe that the material IS NOT copyrighted & that he put that
statement there to try to cover his ass without going to the trouble
of getting one, and perhaps as a C-H-A for liability as well.
The reason that I'm making an issue of this is that there is a true
wealth of information in those old issues & it should be available to
the community, not hoarded by Grant as if he were some kind of troll
guarding a treasure.
Kip Gardner
At 1:07 PM +0000 6/25/06, flywrite@hughes.net wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "flywrite@hughes.net"
><flywrite@hughes.net>
>
>As a magazine publisher with some experience with copyrights, I
believe
>someone has misinformed Mike Volckermann about copyright law. The
U.S.
>Patent and Copyright Office (www.uspto.gov) does not automatically
>issue a copyright, nor does any other agency do so. Indeed, a
copyright
>can be issued only after the applicant has filed an application, paid
>the requisite fee, and the application referred to an examiner. If
the
>examiner finds the application acceptable in its own right, and does
>not infringe upon any other copyright, a certificate of copyright can
>be issued. No one can claim that anything is, or has been,
copyrighted
>unless a certificate has been issued to cover the specific material
for
>which the copyright is claimed. However, if an applicaton has been
>filed, the claimant can use the term "Copyright applied for" to alert
>would-be users of the material to the danger of copyright
>violation/prosecution.
>
>This has nothing to do per se with the Broadhead newsletter. However,
>if the claim is being made that any or all of the newsletters are
>covered by a copyright, then an unexpired (or
Message 13
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| Subject: | 3rd flight report |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Harvey,
Why build a plane from plans that are seventy years old, when there are
much newer designs available?
Why build a taildragger when tricycle gear is available (but NOT on a
Pietenpol, please)?
Why build a wooden airplane when there are composites available?
Why carve your own wooden prop when precision made carbon fiber props
are available?
It's all part of the charm of the Pietenpol - like a page out of
history. And the tailskid was what was used way back when.
Having said all that, I'm planning to put a tailwheel on mine.
Bill C.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
harvey.rule@bell.ca
Sent: June 26, 2006 1:00 PM
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
I have to ask;why a tail skid when we have wheels that can be so much
more manageable?Why look for trouble?
Message 14
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Well it depends. You would have to get everyone that submitted material
to agree to that, but if they did you would be just fine.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: newsletter
If a new newsletter is started how about if it specifically states
that the material is not copyrighted and is in the public domain? This
way we can avoid the same thing happening again where a wealth of good
infomation is lost forever to future Piet builders as Grant takes "his"
Piet newsletters to the grave.
Rick
On 6/26/06, lnawms@fuse.net <lnawms@fuse.net> wrote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <lnawms@fuse.net >
How about if everyone stops picking on Grant, who was probably the
greatest boon to Pietenpols in the last 20 years, and move forward. If
you think that you have to pirate articles from his newsletters to have
material for a new newsletter maybe the whole idea should be scrapped.
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | clear answers from Mike Hardaway |
Now there is the first post on all of this that really cuts to the
chase. Thank you, Mike. I trust a veteran who is an attorney
who also loves Pietenpols.
All the whimpering and crying and gnashing of teeth about this is pretty
funny when you think about the tremendous amount of
time and effort that Grant put into that newsletter-----a total volunteer
effort with no pay what so ever (like he really needed it)
and dues that didn't even cover the costs of production, mailing, his
returning long-distance phone calls and letters over the years,
answering e-mails, hosting a web page (That by the way is STILL UP and
running for ALL of us to use today) and doing it for almost TEN years.
Grant is not even a pilot---but loves old designs, Model A Ford's and
helped his good friend Howard Henderson build Howard's Piet
in the St. Louis area. I would take Mike Hardaway's words to heart as his
depth of legal knowledge and experience illuminate Grant's
legal and ethical rights, no matter how we might feel about what he 'should
do' or outta do or isn't doing.
I know Grant fairly well and he helps so many organizations that you cannot
imagine. He helps do web work on mostly a volunteer effort
for his graduating class, garden and nature centers, Ford A organizations
and support affiliations, and other various causes too numerous
to mention. Grant didn't need to do the Piet web page or newsletter
anymore than he needed a migraine headache. Give the guy some
credit for doing what he did and maybe approach him with this kind of
gratitude in an effort of diplomacy to see what his reasoning is, see
what his thoughts are, and try to encourage him positively and perhaps
things might happen for the good to release the archived newsletters.
The fact stands that NOBODY has stepped up to the plate like Grant did for
almost a decade since he stopped doing the newsletter seven
years ago in 1999. (sans the diluted version that came out since then and
appears to have since died.)
For what its worth---
Mike Cuy
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: dye for dope |
Douwe,
Since you have to add AL paste/powder to the final coats of the dope for
UV protection, I think I'd add only a very small amount of this approved
and necessary "pigment" and forget about experimenting with various dyes
that you have no idea if they'll co-react with the dope thus changing
the dope's properties and/or worse make the dope brittle. You could
very easily add very small amounts in varying quantities per coat of the
already needed AL paste. To see if your coverage is complete.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 5:31 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: dye for dope
Guys, (and gals?)
I'm using the old fashioned butyrate dope system over my ceconite.
I'm about ready to start spraying. The first coat must be nitrate dope
as butyrate doesn't adhere to ceconite, whereas nitrate does. The
problem is the only non tautening nitrate I could find was untinted, and
I'd like a little tint to help with even coverage.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what might work as a tint? is
there any reason a little rit dye or food coloring wouldn't? (there's
water in there)
thanks,
Douwe
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Copyright Law |
Okay, I think we can all agree that Grant MacLaren has the legal right
to the copyright on the old BPA newsletters, and that no one has been
granted permission to reproduce them. It is Grant's right to decide
whether or not to permit such activity, and he has made his decision
clearly. We should respect that right. Case closed. Let's move on.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that a new Pietenpol newsletter
would be reprinting any articles from the old newsletters (At least I
hope not, and if you were, forget it). My understanding was that there
was a discussion as to whether or not there were enough interested, and
dedicated contributors to begin a NEW newsletter, with all new material,
and whether or not there would be an audience for such a newsletter. I
think a new newsletter would be a great idea, since we now have dozens
of completed and flying Pietenpols (and knowledgable
builders/pilots)that were not in that state when the old BPA folded.
There are always new ways to solve old problems, or different approaches
that could be shared. I hope this energy can be turned in a positive
direction and used to create a new newsletter.
Bill C.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: clear answers from Mike Hardaway |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
Thanks to Google, I've probably dug up every bit of Pietenpol info on the web,
some of which has the BPA brand name. I agree, Grant did a great job and I still
find stuff out there from that era and enjoy reading it. I've been at this
less than a year and don't know exactly where the bad feelings came into play
but I think we could put together a lasting unified resource that a lot of folks
would benefit from and contribute to, with or without the old material.
A new site or newsletter would just be a continuation of whatever was there before
and is exactly in the spirit that insipired Chuck to build his site and me
to build mine. When Chuck talked to me about his site before he went live with
it, he spoke of starting a Pietenpol movement. I've never had a more positive
and like minded group undertaking a project of this scale and I'd do anything
to get more people into it. You guys are a lot more fun than the EAA chapter
guys. I'd love to see more people and ideas flowing around planes like ours.
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=43176#43176
Message 19
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
As Jack recommended AC43.13 is a good document to have. At least for getting and
idea on judging wood quality. I bought one but it's also available as a FREE
download from the FAA website at:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument&Highlight=43.13
(If the link doesn't work and you can't paste it into a single line of your browser's URL box just go to http://www.faa.gov and click on the Regulations and Policies tab, then use the Advisory Circulars link on the upper left. You can search for it by just entering in 43.13)
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=43183#43183
Message 20
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| Subject: | 3rd flight report |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
Your absolutely right ,I have no idea what I was thinking,slap me
purple!
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Church
Sent: June 26, 2006 1:23 PM
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bill Church"
<eng@canadianrogers.com>
Harvey,
Why build a plane from plans that are seventy years old, when there are
much newer designs available?
Why build a taildragger when tricycle gear is available (but NOT on a
Pietenpol, please)?
Why build a wooden airplane when there are composites available?
Why carve your own wooden prop when precision made carbon fiber props
are available?
It's all part of the charm of the Pietenpol - like a page out of
history. And the tailskid was what was used way back when.
Having said all that, I'm planning to put a tailwheel on mine.
Bill C.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
harvey.rule@bell.ca
Sent: June 26, 2006 1:00 PM
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
I have to ask;why a tail skid when we have wheels that can be so much
more manageable?Why look for trouble?
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: clear answers from Mike Hardaway |
Funny you should mention your EAA chapter guys. I attended a chapter meeting
the other night involving going from hanger to hanger looking at projects. I
proudly wore my 'Pietenpol - Cherry Grove ..' shirt and as we went from RV6
to RV8 to Lanair to R10 I had about five diferent guys ask me what a
Pietenpol was. And guess what? Nobody in the group I talked to had ever
heard of one. Guess once you get in RV-land there just isn't any other
aircraft worth worrying about.
Great website also Glenn.
RIck
On 6/26/06, Glenn Thomas < glennthomas@flyingwood.com> wrote:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas" <
> glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
> You guys are a lot more fun than the EAA chapter guys. I'd love to see
> more people and ideas fl!
> owing around planes like ours.
>
> --------
> Glenn Thomas
> N?????
> http://www.flyingwood.com
>
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 22
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| Subject: | you're in good company here Rick Holland ! |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
that is too wild, Rick about your EAA Chapter experience. I wonder if
John Dilatush from Colorado had the same experience
with others not knowing what a Pietenpol is even though they were building
a plane themselves. (kit assembling I should say)
Typical questions from that kinda EAA crowd or others include: "so is that
an ultralight ?" "do you need a private pilot license to fly that ?"
What is funny is that the guys building generic kinda homebuilts always
have a wife or girlfriend who will gravitate to your airplane at a fly-in
and tell their husbands "how cute" this little plane is and that you should
have built one of these, honey. Happens alot. Just bums them out !
Mike C>
do not archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | rain rain go away |
Come again some other day!
Are all you guys having this rain?
They say it's all over.
My Gosh!
walt evans
NX140DL
do not archive
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: you're in good company here Rick Holland ! |
That is funny Mike. I know the first time I ever saw a Piet (before I ever
started building anything) it was John Dilatush's at a Rocky Mountain EAA
flyin. I had no idea what it was but it was so different from everything
else and the craftsmanship was so exquisite I ended up spending more time
looking at John's Piet than anything else. And their was a good crowd of
people as interested in it as I was.
Until then I didn't know that people still built airplanes out of wood. Just
like my EAA chapter guys when I described my fuselage being built with wood,
they gave me a weird look and said "you mean the whole thing is just a bunch
of wood?".
Its kind of fun being on the fringes of the 'homebuilt establishment', I
think the average home builder looks at us as slightly eccentric, especially
you Model A Piet guys, you guys are way out there : ).
Rick H.
do not archive
On 6/26/06, Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <
> Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
>
> that is too wild, Rick about your EAA Chapter experience. I wonder if
> John Dilatush from Colorado had the same experience
> with others not knowing what a Pietenpol is even though they were building
> a plane themselves. (kit assembling I should say)
>
> Typical questions from that kinda EAA crowd or others include: "so is
> that
> an ultralight ?" "do you need a private pilot license to fly that ?"
>
> What is funny is that the guys building generic kinda homebuilts always
> have a wife or girlfriend who will gravitate to your airplane at a fly-in
>
> and tell their husbands "how cute" this little plane is and that you
> should
> have built one of these, honey. Happens alot. Just bums them out !
>
> Mike C>
>
> do not archive
>
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: rain rain go away |
Rain? Are you kiddin? Here in Colorado we have forest fires. Eastern
Colorado looks like the Sahara desert and the farmers are doing rain dances
to try to bring in some rain. Great flyin weather though. Probably the same
for Chuck out there in Kansas.
Rick H.
On 6/26/06, walt evans <waltdak@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Come again some other day!
> Are all you guys having this rain?
> They say it's all over.
> My Gosh!
> walt evans
> NX140DL
>
> do not archive
>
> "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
> Ben Franklin
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 26
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| Subject: | rain rain go away |
Nothing coming from Utah. Beautiful weather. Grass is dying tho.
Stevee
________________________________
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Holland
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 4:54 PM
Rain? Are you kiddin? Here in Colorado we have forest fires. Eastern
Colorado looks like the Sahara desert and the farmers are doing rain
dances to try to bring in some rain. Great flyin weather though.
Probably the same for Chuck out there in Kansas.
Rick H.
On 6/26/06, walt evans <waltdak@verizon.net> wrote:
Come again some other day!
Are all you guys having this rain?
They say it's all over.
My Gosh!
walt evans
NX140DL
do not archive
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 27
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Plncrzy3@netscape.net
As I sit here reading all the Bull-s--t about who or who does not hold a copyright
on idea's for building and flying a Pietenpol, that I would think everyone
should and would want to pass this information on to all builder's both old and
new. And to hear that the old idea's and information should stay buried and
not be shared with the new builder's because someone cannot come up with new
material and is just pirating someone else's idea's is a bunch of CRAP! I thought
that this is what this was all about. If this is the way and attitude of most
of the Builder's and Flyer's of this network then I will quietly Build and
Fly my Pietenpol knowing that I did not infringe on anyone's Damn Copyright or
use there idea's or techniques to get my Plane finished. And all this time I
thought this was supposed to be a Fun thing to do between a group of people with
the same GOAL, To Build and Fly a Pietenpol. Bryan
__________________________________________________________________
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Message 28
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958@verizon.net>
Bryan Copyright is both a necessary and a positive thing. It is what has
made it possible for you to quietly build that airplane. I could be
mistaken here because there are a number of types of work products that fall
under many different names, but without some sort of work property
protection would you still be able to buy plans for the Piet? Would Don
still answer the phone to answer your questions? Of course not and if you
were lucky you might find a set of partial plans that you might be able to
get to a copy machine to get a copy of a good enough quality to maybe build
your airplane.
Sharing ideas amoung builders is how many problems are solved. New ideas
and new ways to solve old problems might well justify a newsletter. That
sharing of ideas is the purpose of this list.
Yet I am a photographer and I get paid based on the work I produce. I don't
want anyone stealing (and yes that's exactly what it is) an image from me
and putting it out in some other form for a profit. If I find out, they pay
one way or another. If they are reasonable they pay normal rates plus a
small surcharge. If not they pay a WHOLE lot more.
For what ever reason the previous publisher has decided not to allow
reproduction. That should most certainly be respected. That does not mean
new work couldn't be created, and in fact it might be even better. Was a
dremel tool out 30 years ago? How many uses could you find for that tool in
building a Piet? How could that work into practices used back in the 30's?
Passing on solid information is one thing, but there is a big difference
between "passing on information" and effectively photocopying someones hard
work without them being compensated for the effort. How long would Flying
Magazine stay in business if only one person at the airport bought it, and
then just passed around photocopies for the rest of the airport? The only
difference is the size of the circulation.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:11 PM
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Plncrzy3@netscape.net
>
> As I sit here reading all the Bull-s--t about who or who does not hold a
> copyright on idea's for building and flying a Pietenpol, that I would
> think everyone should and would want to pass this information on to all
> builder's both old and new. And to hear that the old idea's and
> information should stay buried and not be shared with the new builder's
> because someone cannot come up with new material and is just pirating
> someone else's idea's is a bunch of CRAP! I thought that this is what this
> was all about. If this is the way and attitude of most of the Builder's
> and Flyer's of this network then I will quietly Build and Fly my Pietenpol
> knowing that I did not infringe on anyone's Damn Copyright or use there
> idea's or techniques to get my Plane finished. And all this time I thought
> this was supposed to be a Fun thing to do between a group of people with
> the same GOAL, To Build and Fly a Pietenpol. Bryan
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Switch to Netscape Internet Service.
> As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at
> http://isp.netscape.com/register
>
> Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
>
> New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer
> Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
> Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Tailwheel and steering |
I have a question for those who just used a non steerable tailwheel as opposed
to a steerable one with cables. How well has it worked on landing and takeoff?
Roughly what is your turning radius? I really want to keep the weight down on
that long moment arm if I can. I am used to flying a Tripacer and my turning
radius is probably over 40 feet at best. So if the turning radius on a rigid tailwheel
is not any worse than that I can live with it.
Thanks,
Rick S.
Richard Schreiber
lmforge@earthlink.net
Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: 3rd flight report |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
Builder's choice.
To install a tailwheel on a Pietenpol with Jenny style gear would require
brakes and a means to steer the tailwheel. Brakes and steering add weight,
complexity and additional trouble opportunities of their own.
I am perfectly satisfied to be limited to grass airstrips and mild weather.
Cheers,
Greg Cardinal
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
>
> I have to ask;why a tail skid when we have wheels that can be so much
> more manageable?Why look for trouble?
>
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