---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/29/06: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:07 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - Steam cleaning thecombustion chamber (SSchof4277@aol.com) 2. 04:26 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - Steam cleaning thecombustion chamber () 3. 04:31 AM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil () 4. 05:12 AM - don't add things you don't need (Michael D Cuy) 5. 05:36 AM - to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying (Douwe Blumberg) 6. 05:52 AM - building light (Douwe Blumberg) 7. 09:11 AM - Re: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying (KMHeide) 8. 10:33 AM - Re: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying (Jim Ash) 9. 10:36 AM - Re: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying (Gordon Bowen) 10. 02:55 PM - Re: Marvel Mystery Oil - Steam cleaning thecombustion chamber (D.Reid) 11. 03:04 PM - Re: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying (Rcaprd@aol.com) 12. 03:17 PM - Re: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying (Rcaprd@aol.com) 13. 03:27 PM - Re: building light (Rcaprd@aol.com) 14. 08:52 PM - Re: cht thermocouple washer and copper spark plug washer annealing (Paul Carter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:21 AM PST US From: SSchof4277@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - Steam cleaning thecombustion chamber I flew a Convair 440 with P&W R-2800's and they had water injection but it was only used during take off, to allow for higher manifold pressures without detonation. I don't remember if it was pure water or a water / alcohol mix. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:50 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - Steam cleaning thecombustion chamber All this info you guys came back with is amaizing.Here I thought it was just a myth,thanks for all that,wow you guys really know your stuff! Do not archive ________________________________ [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Bowen Sent: June 28, 2006 4:00 PM thecombustion chamber If memory serves me right, the old P-51 and some other piston driven WWII prop fighters had a water injection system for their fuel. Not sure about the science but worked for them with RRoyce engines etc.. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: Hogan, James To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - Steam cleaning thecombustion chamber I have a Saturn that burns lots of oil and I read about pouring water (about as fast as you would add milk to your coffee) with the engine running between 2000 and 2500 rpm. The water steam cleans the combustion chamber and if you pour a little fast it will bog down the engine a little. I've done this a couple of times (nearly a half gallon of water the first time) and each time the engine runs significantly better, stops knocking, and the plugs looked better. Expect lots of white smoke when/if you do this! I did this knowing I'm going to need engine work in the near future so I wasn't so concerned. If you read the DIY section on Saturnfans.com you should find quite a bit of discussion on their forums. James H -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 11:12 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Marvel Mystery Oil A long time ago some person told me that dripping water into the mouth of the carburator while the engine is running also cleans it out.I have never tried this and I'm not even sure it would work.Hell for all I know it might blow the head of an engine but sometimes these old guys have some pretty weird ideas that work.Anybody out there ever heard of this procedure or am I just blown smoke here? ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: June 28, 2006 11:38 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Marvel Mystery Oil I have been adding MMO to my fuel. However, I got a warning from others at our EAA meeting last week. Apparantly, MMO does not mix well with fuel and it is necessary to pre mix it into the gas. Some of the Cub pilots at the meeting were saying that it had caused some crashes by clogging the gascolator. I had been just pouring the MMO into the tank before fueling. I will pump out the tank bottom with a hand pump to check for unmixed oil before flying again. These guys also were saying that adding 2 cycle oil to engine oil and running the engine for a while before changing oil does a great job at cleaning the insides. I havent tried that. Dick N. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and any included attachments are intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is intended and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Unauthorized forwarding, printing, copying, distribution, or use of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please promptly delete this message and notify the sender of the delivery error by e-mail or you may notify postmaster@jpmc.org of the error. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:03 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Marvel Mystery Oil Up here we look for the dirtiest mogas we can find and that would be ESSO.Anything else may have ethanol in it and that's bad.Someday all mogas will have ethanol since our government is bent on this direction and that will be a sad day for us.I know of no one up here in my area who uses Marvel Mystery oil.Then again I'm not in touch with most of the pilots in the area ,only the ones in our RAA. ________________________________ [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene & Tammy Sent: June 28, 2006 3:17 PM Boy, I sure hate to get involved in this discussing. Please don't kill the messenger....I'm not pro or con on the subject, I'm just relaying on information. Some folks kinda feel that talking about Marvel Mystery Oil is like talking about their mother. You'd better watch what you say. On another site (Yahoo Avid Flyers) the subject was brought up a few years ago as a number of folks use it in their two strokes. Someone posted an excerp from a NTSB investigation that listed Marvel Myster Oil as being made of Mineral Oil, Stoddard Salvent and Lard. I really know very little about 4 stroke engines and everything I read will be a big help for me. What kind of fuel burn does the rest of you guys that fly behind a 65 Continental get? Are you using Av gas or auto gas? Gene New to the site and new to flying (and loving) a Pietenpol. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:37 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Marvel Mystery Oil I have been adding MMO to my fuel. However, I got a warning from others at our EAA meeting last week. Apparantly, MMO does not mix well with fuel and it is necessary to pre mix it into the gas. Some of the Cub pilots at the meeting were saying that it had caused some crashes by clogging the gascolator. I had been just pouring the MMO into the tank before fueling. I will pump out the tank bottom with a hand pump to check for unmixed oil before flying again. These guys also were saying that adding 2 cycle oil to engine oil and running the engine for a while before changing oil does a great job at cleaning the insides. I havent tried that. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:48 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: don't add things you don't need --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Thank you, Dan I'm glad the posts are helping you stay encouraged ! I guess that even though my project has been flying for almost 8 years (that is unreal) I still vividly recall the feelings of discouragement along the building path---and that was while I didn't have a wife or family around so I had the time and the money to build, build, build. I'm sure that building a kit is quite a haul too, but to scratch build something like a Pietenpol, we need all the motivation, encouragement, and kicks in the pants we can get ! Mike ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:52 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying Hey guys, I'm getting ready to spray my wings, but am a bit unsure as to the best way to route the upper aileron cable through the fabric as it runs from the pull to the aileron control horn. I read Chuck's message about how he does the bottom one where it exits through a plexi inspection circle screwed on, and it sounds pretty good. What have you guys done up top? I'm leaning towards just putting a patch there and burning a hole in the right spot. doesn't seem like anything else is necessary. In a rainstorm, water will certainly find its way in, so I'd better have good drainage. Also, would anyone with HVLP spraying experience tell me if it's safe to spray in my backyard? There are no cars around, and the closest house is 50 ft, so I'm hoping the minimal overspray, plus the fast drying time of dope will allowme to spray here rather than trucking everything somewhere else. Douwe ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:55 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: building light I hesitate to write because Mike (as always) said it so well. So I'll basically reiterate what he said. When building a high-drag, relatively low wing area airframe like a Piet, it is vital that weight be kept down, and it sounds like you get that, so that's the first step... understanding that. I think when you build every part, or add anything it is good to ask yourself, "do I need this" and "can this be done lighter". As Mike said, I would NOT try to build the basic airframe lighter, because it is exceptionally strong and proven and really not overweight as it is, so why mess with it. It's all the other stuff we add that does the damage to the overall weight. I was really impressed with Allen Rudolph's old Ford powered Piet up at Brodhead last year. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think someone said it was right around 600, maybe under, with a Model A engine! so it can be done! and oh, what a beautifully simple airplane!! Like you said, build the original fuse, don't add width unless you need it. Use light ceconite, don't pile on tons of paint/dope/polyfiber. Don't use silver on the bottom surfaces unless you plan on lots of inverted flight time. Keep your seatbelts light, cushions to a minimum, instruments to a minimum (I am using a light wing mounted airspeed indicator, saving the panel mounted unit and pitot system) Make your wingscreens no thicker than needed. And remember, every pound in the tail equals four in the nose, so keep things light back there. The Piet is a pure fun flying machine and is designed for no other reason than to fly around the puddle. There weren't any frills on it, you didn't need them, the frills are what's around you and below you. Douwe ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:21 AM PST US From: KMHeide Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying Douwe, HVLP gun have a much better transfer at minimal pressure with most of the over spray hitting the floor. I have painted many cars and other stuff outdoors with very little wind and find it no problem. Ken Heide Fargo, ND do not archive Douwe Blumberg wrote: Hey guys, I'm getting ready to spray my wings, but am a bit unsure as to the best way to route the upper aileron cable through the fabric as it runs from the pull to the aileron control horn. I read Chuck's message about how he does the bottom one where it exits through a plexi inspection circle screwed on, and it sounds pretty good. What have you guys done up top? I'm leaning towards just putting a patch there and burning a hole in the right spot. doesn't seem like anything else is necessary. In a rainstorm, water will certainly find its way in, so I'd better have good drainage. Also, would anyone with HVLP spraying experience tell me if it's safe to spray in my backyard? There are no cars around, and the closest house is 50 ft, so I'm hoping the minimal overspray, plus the fast drying time of dope will allowme to spray here rather than trucking everything somewhere else. Douwe --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:06 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:25 AM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying Douwe, I HVLP'ed N-1033B in backyard in FL, from chromate on metal to final coats on fabric. You just have to insure the wind is very calm and surface you're painting is dry. I painted early morn and late evening, mid-day the slight breeze was too much. WEAR A GOOD CARBON-MASK TIGHT TO YOUR FACE. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:37 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying Hey guys, I'm getting ready to spray my wings, but am a bit unsure as to the best way to route the upper aileron cable through the fabric as it runs from the pull to the aileron control horn. I read Chuck's message about how he does the bottom one where it exits through a plexi inspection circle screwed on, and it sounds pretty good. What have you guys done up top? I'm leaning towards just putting a patch there and burning a hole in the right spot. doesn't seem like anything else is necessary. In a rainstorm, water will certainly find its way in, so I'd better have good drainage. Also, would anyone with HVLP spraying experience tell me if it's safe to spray in my backyard? There are no cars around, and the closest house is 50 ft, so I'm hoping the minimal overspray, plus the fast drying time of dope will allowme to spray here rather than trucking everything somewhere else. Douwe ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:47 PM PST US From: "D.Reid" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - Steam cleaning thecombustion chamber I use to service a fleet of Convairs. All recips. the 2-3-440 series all used "ADI" fluid and was actually nothing more than antifreeze...thats right, Ethylne Glycol. A 50/50 mix (water) tp prevent it from freezing at altitude. It increases compression at High MP's to prevent pre-ignition just as you say. I sure miss the old Convairs. Love those and the Martin 404's were nice too. I got a little stick time but not too much. Most of the flights I "jumped" were PT and I just rode along for the fun of it...and to look for oil leaks streaming out the nacelle's. they usually did despite my beat efforts. Dave...(remanissing) Down in Florida----- Original Message ----- From: SSchof4277@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Marvel Mystery Oil - Steam cleaning thecombustion chamber I flew a Convair 440 with P&W R-2800's and they had water injection but it was only used during take off, to allow for higher manifold pressures without detonation. I don't remember if it was pure water or a water / alcohol mix. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:15 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying In a message dated 6/29/2006 7:38:01 AM Central Standard Time, douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: Hey guys, I'm getting ready to spray my wings, but am a bit unsure as to the best way to route the upper aileron cable through the fabric as it runs from the pull to the aileron control horn. I read Chuck's message about how he does the bottom one where it exits through a plexi inspection circle screwed on, and it sounds pretty good. What have you guys done up top? I'm leaning towards just putting a patch there and burning a hole in the right spot. doesn't seem like anything else is necessary. In a rainstorm, water will certainly find its way in, so I'd better have good drainage. Also, would anyone with HVLP spraying experience tell me if it's safe to spray in my backyard? There are no cars around, and the closest house is 50 ft, so I'm hoping the minimal overspray, plus the fast drying time of dope will allowme to spray here rather than trucking everything somewhere else. Douwe Douwe, The bottom aileron cable that goes to the bottom of the horn, passes through a piece of round LEXAN, not Plexiglas. Lexan is Much tougher than Plexiglas. I used 8 countersunk screws to secure the clear Lexan to a piece of 1/4" plywood joggled to accept the lexan cover, under the fabric. The fabric then wraps around the plywood, then the Lexan cover is installed on top of the fabric. The hole in the Lexan that the cable passes through is on the exact angle the cable is, and is just barely big enough for the cable, which is why it can be used as the actual fairlead, that keeps the cable in the groove of the pulley. The tradeoff with Lexan is that any fuel spilled on it will make it crack, unless it is treated (including the edges), when used for a windshield. Plexiglas is fuel resistant, but not nearly as tough as Lexan. For the top cable, I glued a 2 1/2" or 3" oval piece of 1/16" plywood to the fabric, then covered the plywood with another fabric patch, overlapping the plywood by 1 1/2" or 2" with the fabric patch. Those upper and lower aileron horn pulleys MUST have some type of fairleads to keep the cables in the pulleys. A fabric patch is NOT good enough for a fairlead. I have some good pictures of it on my web site. Years ago, I've painted over 100 cars with the old syphon type guns, but they are totally antiquated by the HVLP type spray equipment. I'm buying new HVLP spray equipment, but haven't used it yet. I think that's the Only way to go. Chuck G. NX770CG http://nx770cg.com/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:55 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to aileron cable fairing/hvlp spraying In a message dated 6/29/2006 12:38:13 PM Central Standard Time, gbowen@ptialaska.net writes: WEAR A GOOD CARBON-MASK TIGHT TO YOUR FACE. Yep, but an air supply would be much healthier, especially when using any of the epoxy paints. If you do use just a mask, you Absolutely Are Not Allowed to have a beard while doing this work. In other words, you must have 100% perfect seal around the mask. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:18 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: building light In a message dated 6/29/2006 7:53:59 AM Central Standard Time, douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: The Piet is a pure fun flying machine and is designed for no other reason than to fly around the puddle. Very true, but in '04 I did a 3100 mile cross country flight in the ol Pietenpol !! Best adventure of my life !! Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:43 PM PST US From: "Paul Carter" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: cht thermocouple washer and copper spark plug washer annealing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Paul Carter" Mike, You should not use a washer along with the ring type CHT Thermacouple. (it would shorten the plug) The ring type CHT should seal the same as the washer does. Just be careful and don't let it turn while tightening the plug. As far as annealing the thermocouple, I believe that would ruin the thermocouple. Paul (a non-practicing A&P) ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:45 AM washer annealing > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > > Guys-- I know that when you change or clean spark plugs you should either > use a new copper plug washer > > or anneal (heat red hot w/ a propane torch, then water quench to soften) > the used ones, but my questions is: > > do you use a copper washer over or with a CHT thermocouple washer ?? Do > you also anneal the thermocouple > > washer as well to make it seal well, become soft or is that not > recommended ? > > I fear that I'm not getting a good seal on that plug where the cht washer > is. > > She's not burning as well and fouls up. The plug is good---bench fires > fine. > > Mike > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > >