Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:17 AM - Tim Hansen from Ohio (Michael D Cuy)
2. 08:17 AM - Re: aged pilots (Rick Holland)
3. 08:23 AM - Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat (Dick Navratil)
4. 09:04 AM - Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat (John Egan)
5. 09:06 AM - M.E.R.F.I. fly-in at marion Ohio (shad bell)
6. 09:38 AM - Re: M.E.R.F.I. fly-in at marion Ohio (Michael D Cuy)
7. 11:15 AM - Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat (Rick Holland)
8. 11:18 AM - oh, no- airfoils again (Oscar Zuniga)
9. 11:18 AM - Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat (Rick Holland)
10. 11:20 AM - Re: Beauty in Simplicity and Slow Speed (Phillips, Jack)
11. 02:20 PM - Re: aged pilots (Graham Hansen)
12. 03:03 PM - Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat (Rcaprd@aol.com)
13. 03:17 PM - Re: Tim Hansen from Ohio (Rcaprd@aol.com)
14. 03:31 PM - was - elevator cable routing under the rear seat - Tailwheel Cables (Rcaprd@aol.com)
15. 03:45 PM - Re: oh, no- airfoils again (Rcaprd@aol.com)
16. 05:00 PM - Re: was - elevator cable routing under the rear seat - Tailwheel Cables (Dick Navratil)
17. 09:49 PM - Workin' the Tail (Rcaprd@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Tim Hansen from Ohio |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
That was a very good post Tim and it was GREAT to see you at
Brodhead. You confirmed to me that you really are a die-hard
Piet nut and are not just a tire kicker. For the rest of the
folks, while Tim was up in Cleveland last March, as I recall, he was
finishing up his private work and battling the snowy, windy weather trying
to take his checkride. During the week Tim asked if
he could see my Pietenpol and we met out at the hangar. It was super
cold, windy, but still light enough to open the hangar doors
and look over the Piet. I could tell by talking to Tim that he knew more
already, at age 21, than many others in the Piet community
including some things that I wasn't even aware of. Of course I
strong-armed Tim into getting one of my tapes (actually it was given
to him just for battling the cold that week !) but I didn't expect to see
him at Brodhead---way to go, Tim !
I recall going to Brodhead for the first time in 1998 and older guys
dismissed me rapidly and didn't much acknowledge my enthusiasm
for the design and almost seemed elitists and snobbish. I think that over
time either I've just aged enough or that the Piet crowd has
gone from a "this is the only way you can build a Pietenpol" to a more
open-minded and youth-oriented group. When I say youth
oriented I mean that the trend for Piet builders has shifted from 75 year
olds to 55 year olds, okay ?
Remember Ty.....oh gosh, what was his name ? Two or three years ago he
shows up with a new 65 Cont. Piet and he's just
23 years old or something like that. Great, great story. Same as Tim
Hansens is staring out---sacrifice, scrape, scrounge, more
sacrifice, research, read, listen, build, go to educational seminars,
workshops, vocational welding classes. All great stuff and the
thing I like is that I think (I hope) we are becoming more and more
welcoming of guys like Tim Hanses who might not seem like
your average Piet guy but who are actually the next generation that we have
the duty to pass the torch to !
There are quite a few guys on this list who don't post much and I know some
of them. I got to meet one of Jim Markle's buddies
two weeks ago here in Cleveland by the name of Tom Travis. Tom is
building a Piet and has looked at Jim's project several
times. Tom is at the other end of the aviation spectrum having done more
thing in aviation than you can shake a tailfeather at but
you'd never know it to meet him......down to earth, optimistic, and
willing to help anyone who shows a shred of passion for flying
or aviation. (I know.....he's already given me the subtle, but persuasive
bug about volunteering with the CAF:))
Sorry for the long post but suck all you can information-wise from this
group Tim and read the archives, ask questions, and don't
let the turkeys, sour apples, or purists get you down !
Mike C.
Message 2
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Tim
We aged Piet builders were not really doing a 'woe is me' thing. It was
actually the opposite. We (and you) are the lucky ones to have found our
'Eden' in homebuilding and have the opportunity to do this now. I think we
are concerned about our kids and grand kids being able to have the same
experience. You are correct that it can take many years (or decades) to see
if the efforts of EAA Young Eagles, Sport Pilot, and other things get
younger people interested in aviation. Like you I got into aviation early
getting my private license about eight months after getting my drivers
license. It just took me 43 more years to discover homebuilding. As I said
earlier if I would have riveted together a rudder section and been able to
take it home and show my friends when I was six years old as many kids at
AirVenture did this year I guarantee I would have started my Piet decades
ago.
Keep up your enthusiasm and let us know how your project is doing, don't let
the "sex, drugs, rock and roll" (and video games) deviate you from you
dream. Us old Piet builders don't have to worry about that kind of stuff,
just clogged arteries, heart attacks, and Alzheimer's.
Rick
On 8/3/06, glich7@juno.com <glich7@juno.com> wrote:
>
> Hey listers,
>
> I can't sit by any longer and listen to the "woe are we" from those who
> lack optimism about the future of aviation. My name is Tim Hansen and this
> is my first post. I've been a long time lurker on the pietenpol list. I have
> been doing research on the pietenpol and homebuilts in general for at least
> six years, soaking up all the information I can. If you doubt my research or
> enthusiasm, ask Mike Cuy, I'm a certified Wingnut. I think this is pretty
> good since I'm only 21. I borrowed money to work on my private certificate
> which I completed March ' 06. Last November I took a Greyhound bus for 25
> hours from Columbus, OH to Florida to attend WW's Corvair College to learn
> in person about what I had read on his website. In July of this year I drove
> about eleven hours to go to my first Brodhead. I also go to safety seminars
> in my area whenever I can. For those who attended Brodhead this year, and
> were observant, you would have heard a man introducing his son to Bill
> Rewey, and stating that said son would soon be working on his own Pietenpol
> project soon (or was already working, I'm not sure) with Dad and wanted to
> show him the finished product. I believe the kid was 17 or 18!
>
> Basically, what I'm trying to say is that just because you can't see the
> results from programs like Young Eagles and Youth Aviation Adventure days
> right smack in front of you, that doesn't mean that they aren't working. I
> wish I had known about Young Eagles when it applied to me, or the youth
> internships at Pioneer Field, but that hasn't stopped me and I know I'm not
> alone. I have stayed quiet this long because I was taking in all the
> knowledge I could from the list and builders I met along the way. Just have
> a little faith and keep up the good work. Hope this didn't come off too
> strong but I wanted to make the "young voice" heard. Thanks,
>
> Tim Hansen in Orient, Ohio
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat |
I used pulleys also, but let me tell you about a problem that I am now
in the process of correcting, that others have heard me complain about.
My rudder cables pass under the seat and run thru the pulleys. After
that they join with the tailwheel cable with nicropress fittings. I had
set the rudder 10 degrees off to the right to counter the prop force.
My plane has had a tendency to suddenly veer off to the left on the
takeoff run shortly after the tail came up. This has lead to a couple of
aboarted takeoffs, luckily with no damage. The conclusion I have reached
is that the tension on the tail wheel releases as it leaves the ground
changing the rudder position causing the plane to suddenly veer off if
I'm not anticipating it. I am re rigging the cables, running seperate
cables from the bar.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Egan
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 10:25 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: elevator cable routing under the rear seat
Hello all,
From my recent inquires, it's now obvious that I'm working on my
controls. Today's question is: Do people still run the elevator cables
thru the wood cross member under the rear seat, or should pulleys be
located directly behind the rear seat to guide the cables from the
control sticks up to the bell crank? If people still run the cables in
that area without pulleys, are wear surfaces or some form of guides
fabricated?
Thank you for your help,
John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat |
Thank you group for the clear information regarding the elavator cable routing.
As always, I will use this information. Great discussions, and great photos!
Thank you.
John Egan
Do not archive.
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | M.E.R.F.I. fly-in at marion Ohio |
Hello Guys, Just wondering if any of you are going to make it to the Mid-Eastern
regional Fly in at Marion Ohio at the end of August. Dad and I plan to have
NX92GB there if we get this engine grimlin fixed. Sorry we could not make Brodhead
this year but thats life. We got the wings and the rest of the airframe
all back togeather last weekend and will start on the engine this weekend.
I believe merfi is the last weekend of august this year. It was moved up from
the week following labor day about 2 or 3 years ago.
Sincerly
Shad Bell
NX92GB
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: M.E.R.F.I. fly-in at marion Ohio |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Shad-- sorry to hear of your troubles in Wisconsin but glad you are home
safe with the plane and hoping to make Marion.
I'll be at the Indy Airshow but normally the Marion event is quite well
attended as you know and this should be better since they
skipped last year as I recall with no fly-in.
Mike C.
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat |
Pulleys.
On 8/3/06, John Egan <johnegan99@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> From my recent inquires, it's now obvious that I'm working on my
> controls. Today's question is: Do people still run the elevator cables
> thru the wood cross member under the rear seat, or should pulleys be located
> directly behind the rear seat to guide the cables from the control sticks up
> to the bell crank? If people still run the cables in that area without
> pulleys, are wear surfaces or some form of guides fabricated?
>
> Thank you for your help,
>
> John
>
> ------------------------------
> See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40762/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview>
>
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 8
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| Subject: | oh, no- airfoils again |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Hello, low 'n' slow fliers-
At the risk of offending more of you out there, I'd like to mention that
there has been interest in different airfoils for the Piet for many years,
and I'm not plowing new ground here. I just want to mention that for those
with an interest in genuine analysis of the Pietenpol airfoil performance,
pros and cons, there was a very good analysis done by Mike Shuck back in
2004 and posted to the fileshare on this list. You can access it at
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/kchambers@winternals.com.04.10.2004/
Print it out, take it home for a nice read over the weekend, and see what
somebody else says about the airfoil. And don't sell Mike Shuck short... he
hosts an airfoil discussion site over on yahoogroups and loves the Piet as a
matter of fact.
Oscar Zuniga do not archive
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat |
You make a good point Chuck, I have 2 pulleys under the seat for my elevator
cables but the pully for cable going to the lower bellcrank fitting never
turns when I move the stick and has no reason to be there. I am sure two
holes in an ash block as you have done is fine.
Rick
On 8/3/06, Rcaprd@aol.com <Rcaprd@aol.com> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/3/2006 10:30:03 AM Central Standard Time,
> johnegan99@yahoo.com writes:
>
> Do people still run the elevator cables thru the wood cross member under
> the rear seat, or should pulleys be located directly behind the rear seat to
> guide the cables from the control sticks up to the bell crank? If people
> still run the cables in that area without pulleys, are wear surfaces or some
> form of guides fabricated?
>
> John,
> It seems that most folks use at least one pulley on the cable that goes up
> to the top of the bellcrank. However, there is absolutely NO reason that a
> pulley must be used there. I didn't use a pulley, and there is NO wear
> going on in that area, after well over 300 hrs operation. It simply rides
> on a piece of hardwood, however, I did tighten up one of the turnbuckles up
> a couple of years ago, and maybe after a few more years I may have to make
> another slight adjustment. Copper tubing is not a very good fairlead,
> because it has poor abrasion characteristics, and there is also what is
> called Dissimilar Metal Corrosion. Pulley's add complexity to the design,
> as well as the risk of a cable jumping out, and jamming the control cable.
> The beauty of the Pietenpol is in the simplicity of it's design. Changing
> even simple things like this adds an incredible amount of time, and
> thought that it takes you to build, and after all that extra effort, you
> still haven't made an improvement. Stick to the plans, and just Git 'er
> done !!
>
> Chuck G.
> NX770CG
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 10
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| Subject: | Beauty in Simplicity and Slow Speed |
Good post, Chuck
Jack
Still sweating in Raleigh
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rcaprd@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 9:34 PM
In a message dated 8/2/2006 1:26:47 PM Central Standard Time,
Isablcorky@aol.com writes:
Pieters,
Here I am butting in on your conversations again. I am pleased
to see some discussions begin on the subject of Piet technics. Granted,
the Piet is a well designed machine and has weathered the years and
hardly anyone has received harm. But can it be improved without changing
it's basic designs?
After completing and flying 41CC I felt that it's flying
characterics could be greatly improved, especially the float after round
out. Many said it was because of high drag that caused the falling brick
sensation. The Cub and 7AC both have a nice float, are heavier and
posses abundant drag AND with 65 HP. As I was building 311CC I strongly
considered the Cub airfoil as well as the 7AC and the Clark Y. I feel
now they are superior to the BHP French 10.
If I were to build again it would definitely be with a different
airfoil. That Piet airfoil is in my opinion the weakest link of the Piet
chain design.
Two-bits worth on this beautiful Southern afternoon.
I'll be waiting your bombardments with my old steel helmet.
CMC
OK Corky,
Put on that ol' steel helmet, 'cause I'm coming after ya !! he he !!
If you change the airfoil of the Pietenpol, you Have changed it's basic
design, because it is actually one of it's strongest links. Here's why:
The airfoil is like flying with a notch of flaps, always in - high
drag and lots of Lift. All this lift allows you to take off and land at
very slow speeds, which explains why it has such a good safety record -
injuries will more often if there is an increase if the touchdown speed
has to be increased.
This airfoil is also why Bernard was able to design an airplane with
the power output of a Model A engine.
If you float after roundout, you will certainly land longer than if
you didn't float. Untill you really get used to the landing
characteristics of the Piet airfoil, you should leave a little bit of
power in, and land a little longer. It takes dozens of landings, but
after you get used to it, pull power to idle on final approach, roundout
and flair inches above the ground, and see just how short the roll out
can be.
Those other airfoils you mentioned are designed into those
particular airframes, and are most certainly better than the Piet
airfoil in that particular application.
The Pietenpol Does NOT have balanced control surfaces, and if the
top speed is increased with a lower drag airfoil, then you increase the
risk of Control Surface Flutter. If flutter occurs, it will only take a
matter of seconds before the subject control surface will have complete,
and catastrophic failure. This is the reason you should NEVER take the
Pietenpol past the design Vne of 90 mph.
The Pietenpol airfoil has an aft C. of G. limit which is further aft
on the airfoil than on almost any other airfoil, because of it's
negative pitching moment, and if the airfoil is changed to something
else, then you MUST use C.of G. limits according to the airfoil used -
which will move the aft limit forward, and this will only aggravate the
already aft C G condition that most Pietenpols have.
There ya have it, Corky...my two-bit opinion :)
Chuck G.
NX770CG
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Message 11
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Hey Tim, DO NOT ARCHIVE
Congatulations on getting your Private certificate! You are about the
same age I was when I got mine so many years ago, and I sincerely hope
you will be able to enjoy as long an association with things
aeronautical as I have.
We need younger folk like you to sustain sport flying in the future. I
don't know what the situation is in Ohio---or in the USA,
generally---but I do know that very few young people are learning to fly
here in Western Canada these days. We used to have a lot of flying
schools and taking flying lessons was popular among youth. Alas, this is
no longer the case and anyone learning to fly around here is older
(often in their fifties). Our local flying school's students are few in
number and follow this age pattern, with few exceptions.
For the record, I definitely am not a "crepe hanger" and tend to be
optimistic about most things. But I am apprehensive about the future of
sport flying in this country, perhaps because of a perspective gained
during nearly 58 years of involvement with aviation.
I have belonged to EAA since 1956 (EAA#2063), as well as The Canadian
Owners and Pilots Association since 1953.
And over the years I have taken perhaps hundreds of adults and children
for their very first airplane ride---until the liability thing became a
concern. For 17 years, I taught a high school aircraft maintenance
program and many of its graduates became involved in aviation as a
career, or for recreation. I continue to try to promote and support
private/sport flying by helping aircraft owners with the maintenance of
their machines [I am an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (similar to your
A&P)], so you see I am still trying to do my bit.
You are correct when you say the results of Young Eagles and similar
programs will not be apparent for a while. Young Eagles is a great
concept and needs to be supported because it is vital for the survival
of recreational flying and a healthy aviation industry. These
initiatives need to be ongoing to ensure that each generation will
become infected by the aviation bug (like you and me). It used to be
easy for kids to become acquainted with airplanes and airplane people,
but present-day security measures tend to exclude the public from any
contact with them. Hence a program like Young Eagles is the way to go.
Perhaps my greatest frustration comes from the unrealistic medical
regulations applied to sport flying in this country, particularly for
older pilots like me. You are lucky to have Sport Pilot and LSA, and I
see them as the salvation of recreational flying in the future. I do
hope this frustration hasn't come through as my being totally negative
about the future.
Really, I am not a curmudgeon!
Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN, flying since 1970)
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: elevator cable routing under the rear seat |
In a message dated 8/4/2006 1:21:14 PM Central Standard Time,
at7000ft@gmail.com writes:
You make a good point Chuck, I have 2 pulleys under the seat for my elevator
cables but the pully for cable going to the lower bellcrank fitting never
turns when I move the stick and has no reason to be there. I am sure two holes
in
an ash block as you have done is fine.
Rick
Rick,
I looked at your picture, and didn't see any threads sticking through the
lock nut. Was this a picture of the pre-fit ? At least two threads must
protrude through the nut, but no more than four.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tim Hansen from Ohio |
In a message dated 8/4/2006 10:18:55 AM Central Standard Time,
Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov writes:
I got to meet one of Jim Markle's buddies
two weeks ago here in Cleveland by the name of Tom Travis.
Hey, I had the honor of giving Tom Travis his first Pietenpol ride, when I
was at Tick Hill, during my America Tour '04. With Tom in the front pit, we
flew tight formation with Terry B. at the controls of their T'craft, and got some
great pictures. That stop was one of the most enjoyable stops I made !!
Terry, his lovely bride, and all the gang at Tick Hill really gave me a Big ol'
Texas Welcome !!
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 14
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| Subject: | was - elevator cable routing under the rear seat - Tailwheel |
Cables
In a message dated 8/4/2006 10:25:36 AM Central Standard Time,
horzpool@goldengate.net writes:
My rudder cables pass under the seat and run thru the pulleys. After that
they join with the tailwheel cable with nicropress fittings. I had set the
rudder 10 degrees off to the right to counter the prop force. My plane has
had a
tendency to suddenly veer off to the left on the takeoff run shortly after t
he
tail came up. This has lead to a couple of aboarted takeoffs, luckily with n
o
damage. The conclusion I have reached is that the tension on the tail wheel
releases as it leaves the ground changing the rudder position causing the pl
ane
to suddenly veer off if I'm not anticipating it. I am re rigging the cables
,
running seperate cables from the bar.
Dick N.
Dick,
That's the way I set mine up, too. I used 1/16" cables from the tailwheel,
all the way up to the rudder bar, with the rudder set to 0=BA, tailwheel set
to
0=BA, and the rudder bar at neutral. It has worked very well, except that
because of my 3 1/2" tailwheel, in tall grass I have to drag a brake to get
it to
turn around in the width of the grass runway. Sometimes I like to be stoppe
d,
put in about 1200 or 1300 rpm, stick well forward and stand on one brake to
make the tail come off the ground, and just pivot around on one wheel, like
someone picked it up and carried it around. Gotta be careful not to let the
weight
of the tail come back down on the tailwheel while still going through the
sideways motion.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: oh, no- airfoils again |
In a message dated 8/4/2006 1:20:52 PM Central Standard Time,
taildrags@hotmail.com writes:
Hello, low 'n' slow fliers-
At the risk of offending more of you out there, I'd like to mention that
there has been interest in different airfoils for the Piet for many years,
and I'm not plowing new ground here. I just want to mention that for those
with an interest in genuine analysis of the Pietenpol airfoil performance,
pros and cons, there was a very good analysis done by Mike Shuck back in
2004 and posted to the fileshare on this list. You can access it at
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/kchambers@winternals.com.04.10.2004/
Print it out, take it home for a nice read over the weekend, and see what
somebody else says about the airfoil. And don't sell Mike Shuck short... he
hosts an airfoil discussion site over on yahoogroups and loves the Piet as a
matter of fact.
Oscar Zuniga do not archive
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Oscar,
I wasn't able to open that file for some reason, but Mike Shuck is one of my
flying buddies here in Wichita, and is a guru on airfoils...I think it is his
passion. I gave him the coordinates he needed to do that analysis, and even
got to proof read the report. The picture he has on his airfoils web site, is
him leaning on the cowling of my plane. He is extremely knowledgeable, and
one of the most pleasant and funny people to be around !! I usually ask him
about a million questions whenever we do some hanger flying.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: was - elevator cable routing under the rear seat - |
Tailwheel Cables
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:30 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: was - elevator cable routing under the rear
seat - Tailwheel Cables
In a message dated 8/4/2006 10:25:36 AM Central Standard Time,
horzpool@goldengate.net writes:
Chuck
That is most impressive to watch. I have a friend who can do that type
of manuver. He will also hold brakes, apply power, bring up tail and
wag the tail up and down. I'm just not that good to try that.
Dick
Sometimes I like to be stopped, put in about 1200 or 1300 rpm, stick
well forward and stand on one brake to make the tail come off the
ground, and just pivot around on one wheel, like someone picked it up
and carried it around. Gotta be careful not to let the weight of the
tail come back down on the tailwheel while still going through the
sideways motion.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 17
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| Subject: | Workin' the Tail |
In a message dated 8/4/2006 11:06:22 PM Central Standard Time,
horzpool@goldengate.net writes:
Chuck
That is most impressive to watch. I have a friend who can do that type of
manuver. He will also hold brakes, apply power, bring up tail and wag the tail
up and down. I'm just not that good to try that.
Dick
Sometimes I like to be stopped, put in about 1200 or 1300 rpm, stick well
forward and stand on one brake to make the tail come off the ground, and just
pivot around on one wheel, like someone picked it up and carried it around.
Gotta be careful not to let the weight of the tail come back down on the
tailwheel while still going through the sideways motion.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Something to keep in mind, is what the prop wash is doing. When keeping 'er
straight, the tail will be absorbed in the prop wash at a constant rate and is
more controllable. However, when you do a turn around, and swing the tail
around at a moderate rate, a portion of the tail swings out of the prop wash and
looses the lift from the forward stick, which means the tail will come back
down unless you add more forward stick - but then when you stop the tail swing,
the entire tail will be once again absorbed in the prop wash, and you have to
let off the forward stick or the tail will go too high...and it might cost
you a prop !!
Chuck G.
NX770CG
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