---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/02/06: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:51 AM - Hardware question (Catdesigns) 2. 10:00 AM - Re: Hardware question (Gordon Bowen) 3. 01:02 PM - Re: fuel (VAHOWDY@aol.com) 4. 01:10 PM - youtube.com (walt evans) 5. 03:24 PM - Re: Hardware question (Catdesigns) 6. 03:52 PM - Re: Hardware question (Rob Stapleton) 7. 03:54 PM - Re: Corvair Caution! (gcardinal) 8. 05:56 PM - Re: Crank (shad bell) 9. 06:42 PM - Franklin 90 hp (Oscar Zuniga) 10. 10:39 PM - Re: Hardware question (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:51 AM PST US From: "Catdesigns" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Catdesigns" A question about hardware, Question: What length bolt to use. Hypothetical situation, say we have a -inch thick structural member and we need to bolt a 1/8th-inch thick fitting to one side. This would make the through hole length 1 1/8th-inches long. I am guessing the bolt should be based on the grip length, so in this case I would choose a bolt with a grip length of 1 1/8th-inch. According to the charts there are no bolts with a grip length of 1 1/8-inch. So I would choose a dash 16 (AN4-16 for instance) which has a length of 1 5/16. I would choose this so the threaded portion of the bolt is longer then the through hole length. I would take up the extra length with a washer. This works fine until you try to use a safety wire nut on a drilled bolt, the nut seems to be below the hole in the shank, and thus the safety wire will not hold the nut. Follow on question, is it ok to have the threads in the fitting hole? I would assume if you had threads in the wood part of the hole it would be ok. Also, is everyone using the large diameter wood washers under the side of the bolt against wood (head or nut)? Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:19 AM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" Tracy, The best place for a short course on min. bolt length/type etc. is Sacramento Sky Ranch's Tech Book and FAA's Advisory Circulars AC 43.13-1B and AC 43.13-2A "Acceptable Methods, Techniques and Practices-----Aircraft Inspection and Repair",, both are available via Jeppesen, AirSpruce or direct from SkyRanch. These two tech books should be on every homebuilders bookshelf for reference. Every AP I've known has a dog-eared copy of the FAA AC's, they use it for reference as a bible. I like SkyRanch's tech explanations and pictures of failed bolts and such to help understand the science of materials and materials selection for homebuilts. You listen to a bunch of homebuilders, you'll get as many answers to your technical questions as you will the number of people you ask. I've known some guys, who's only source of technical information was the front of the ASpruce catalog and talking on the phone with a ASpruce telephone rep, who's probably only seen a homebuilt in pictures. You should go right to the source documents for your answers. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catdesigns" Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 7:49 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Catdesigns" > > > A question about hardware, > > Question: What length bolt to use. > > Hypothetical situation, say we have a -inch thick structural member and we > need to bolt a 1/8th-inch thick fitting to one side. This would make the > through hole length 1 1/8th-inches long. I am guessing the bolt should be > based on the grip length, so in this case I would choose a bolt with a > grip length of 1 1/8th-inch. According to the charts there are no bolts > with a grip length of 1 1/8-inch. So I would choose a dash 16 (AN4-16 for > instance) which has a length of 1 5/16. I would choose this so the > threaded portion of the bolt is longer then the through hole length. I > would take up the extra length with a washer. This works fine until you > try to use a safety wire nut on a drilled bolt, the nut seems to be below > the hole in the shank, and thus the safety wire will not hold the nut. > > Follow on question, is it ok to have the threads in the fitting hole? I > would assume if you had threads in the wood part of the hole it would be > ok. > > Also, is everyone using the large diameter wood washers under the side of > the bolt against wood (head or nut)? > > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, Ca > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:29 PM PST US From: VAHOWDY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel In some areas alcohol is added to auto gas. It is the alcohol that will turn seals to mush. I ran alcohol in my go-kart and had to rebuild my carb every weekend. Howdy ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:21 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: youtube.com Just happened to stumble onto Jeff Boatright's vids on www.youtube.com first was from the past flicks set to music, others of him climbing out. Just go there and search Pietenpol. Don't think this was talked about before. walt evans NX140DL do not archive "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:47 PM PST US From: "Catdesigns" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Catdesigns" Gordon, Dang! I was just at Skyranch yesterday buying the bolts and it never occurred to me to ask if they knew the answer to this. I thought they only did engine books. Guess I will wander over at lunch on Tuesday. I already have 43.13-1B and 2A. I will look again in there to see if its in there. All I remember is the 3 treads showing above the nut. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Bowen" Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 9:58 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" > > > Tracy, > The best place for a short course on min. bolt length/type etc. is > Sacramento Sky Ranch's Tech Book and FAA's Advisory Circulars AC 43.13-1B > and AC 43.13-2A "Acceptable Methods, Techniques and > Practices-----Aircraft Inspection and Repair",, both are available via > Jeppesen, AirSpruce or direct from SkyRanch. These two tech books should > be on every homebuilders bookshelf for reference. Every AP I've known has > a dog-eared copy of the FAA AC's, they use it for reference as a bible. I > like SkyRanch's tech explanations and pictures of failed bolts and such to > help understand the science of materials and materials selection for > homebuilts. You listen to a bunch of homebuilders, you'll get as many > answers to your technical questions as you will the number of people you > ask. I've known some guys, who's only source of technical information was > the front of the ASpruce catalog and talking on the phone with a ASpruce > telephone rep, who's probably only seen a homebuilt in pictures. You > should go right to the source documents for your answers. > Gordon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Catdesigns" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 7:49 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question > > >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Catdesigns" >> >> >> A question about hardware, >> >> Question: What length bolt to use. >> >> Hypothetical situation, say we have a -inch thick structural member and >> we need to bolt a 1/8th-inch thick fitting to one side. This would make >> the through hole length 1 1/8th-inches long. I am guessing the bolt >> should be based on the grip length, so in this case I would choose a bolt >> with a grip length of 1 1/8th-inch. According to the charts there are no >> bolts with a grip length of 1 1/8-inch. So I would choose a dash 16 >> (AN4-16 for instance) which has a length of 1 5/16. I would choose this >> so the threaded portion of the bolt is longer then the through hole >> length. I would take up the extra length with a washer. This works fine >> until you try to use a safety wire nut on a drilled bolt, the nut seems >> to be below the hole in the shank, and thus the safety wire will not hold >> the nut. >> >> Follow on question, is it ok to have the threads in the fitting hole? I >> would assume if you had threads in the wood part of the hole it would be >> ok. >> >> Also, is everyone using the large diameter wood washers under the side of >> the bolt against wood (head or nut)? >> >> Chris Tracy >> Sacramento, Ca >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:59 PM PST US From: "Rob Stapleton" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Rob Stapleton" I believe the best advice is than posted by Gordon Bowen, but remember the FAA has thread standards for every bolt and they have to have at least three threds showing behind each nut. I think the bolts with shafts and threads on the ends are better for wood than a completely threaded bolt. Check the FAA Advisory Circular ASA AS43.13B everything is there. Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Bowen Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 8:58 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" Tracy, The best place for a short course on min. bolt length/type etc. is Sacramento Sky Ranch's Tech Book and FAA's Advisory Circulars AC 43.13-1B and AC 43.13-2A "Acceptable Methods, Techniques and Practices-----Aircraft Inspection and Repair",, both are available via Jeppesen, AirSpruce or direct from SkyRanch. These two tech books should be on every homebuilders bookshelf for reference. Every AP I've known has a dog-eared copy of the FAA AC's, they use it for reference as a bible. I like SkyRanch's tech explanations and pictures of failed bolts and such to help understand the science of materials and materials selection for homebuilts. You listen to a bunch of homebuilders, you'll get as many answers to your technical questions as you will the number of people you ask. I've known some guys, who's only source of technical information was the front of the ASpruce catalog and talking on the phone with a ASpruce telephone rep, who's probably only seen a homebuilt in pictures. You should go right to the source documents for your answers. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catdesigns" Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 7:49 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Catdesigns" > > > A question about hardware, > > Question: What length bolt to use. > > Hypothetical situation, say we have a -inch thick structural member and we > need to bolt a 1/8th-inch thick fitting to one side. This would make the > through hole length 1 1/8th-inches long. I am guessing the bolt should be > based on the grip length, so in this case I would choose a bolt with a > grip length of 1 1/8th-inch. According to the charts there are no bolts > with a grip length of 1 1/8-inch. So I would choose a dash 16 (AN4-16 for > instance) which has a length of 1 5/16. I would choose this so the > threaded portion of the bolt is longer then the through hole length. I > would take up the extra length with a washer. This works fine until you > try to use a safety wire nut on a drilled bolt, the nut seems to be below > the hole in the shank, and thus the safety wire will not hold the nut. > > Follow on question, is it ok to have the threads in the fitting hole? I > would assume if you had threads in the wood part of the hole it would be > ok. > > Also, is everyone using the large diameter wood washers under the side of > the bolt against wood (head or nut)? > > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, Ca > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:11 PM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Caution! Shad, A couple of questions: 1. Where did the crank break? 2. What is the "clock" position of the prop in relation to the crank throws? Was the prop parallel or perpindicular to the crank throws? Some people on the corvair list believe this is critical. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: shad bell To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Caution! Hello group, Shad here just trying to get the word out to corvair users about getting your crankshafts profesionally checked (magna fluxed). Dad had his break in flight and was forced to shut the engine off before it decintagraded the airframe. The engine kept running after the break and thankfully the prop sayed on. He was fortunate enough to have a newly cut wheat field in gliding distance and the only damage was a tear in the fabric on the rudder from a rock that was kicked up by the tire. I think he plans to try another corvair but we are trying to find the cause and reason for the fracture, hopefullly this will help keep some of you from having the same misfortune. It may cost $300-$400 to get the crank magna-fluxed and nitrided but it is a cheap alternative to building a new engine. Fly safe Shad Bell (Pietenpol Recovery Specialist) ha ha ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:49 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Crank Hello list, The last post I tried to send didn't go through so I'll try again: The crank broke on the rear cheek of the #6 rod journal, about 1/2 inch below (toward the main bearings) the rod journal. The set-up we ran is a combonation Wynne, pietenpol style. The prop hub is Wynne , front ring gear starter, OT-10 cam, forged pistons, no blower fan, dual point distributer, dual coil, single plug, one system at a time. The intake is Piet style bought from Vi Kapler ( I believe) with oil bath around intake manifold. we run a marvel schebler ma3spa carb 100LL, Heggy 66-30 wood prop, and believe prop was indexed 90 deg to #6 journal. We were getting 3100- 3300 rpm full power ambiant temp at about 80-85 degree F. We have been having engine problems since our atempt to go to Brodhead, about the last 10-15 hrs. We were inspecting the engine last Thursday and found some cracks in the intake manifold at the braized joint where the intake mounts to the r/h head. We leak checked it and confirmed an induction lek at that point, which would have caused our symtoms of leaning out at full throtle. We also found our timing was either mis -adjusted or creaped forward about 4 degrees advanced. The engine would itermitantly run rough at high power, and some times lose about 50% of full power,(causing me a partial power loss forced landing in ILL) with out a considerable rise in CHT. I believe it may have been detonating when it leaned out (due to induction leak) and may have caused or contributed to the crank failure. The crank may have had a crack from the start, as I don't think it ever got a magna flux inspection. We will be taking the engine off the airplane next weekend so I will try to post some pictures of the crank. We will also foward this info to William Wynne to help with his research and safty data. My only advise to all using corvairs is dont be afraid to spend the extra money for profesional specialty magna flux inspection. $300-$400 (if it's that much) dollars is cheap compared to building another engine, and the sorrow of seeing your airplane sitting ground bound while you get the time and money to fix and rebuild it. Luckly this all turnned out well all things considered, if it would have failed at dad's home airport on take off we would have been fising it out of a limestone quary. Shad --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:39 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Franklin 90 hp --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" I only know enough about these engines to be dangerous. For example, looking at the earlier engines from 65-85 hp (basically all 176 cubic inches and listed as Franklin 4AC 176 B2 through F3 models), they seem to be at least 20 lbs. heavier than their Continental engine counterparts with the same magnetos and carbs, but in a Piet that isn't really a handicap. Not sure how the 90 hp version shapes up against the Continental C90 (Franklin 4AC 199 B2-H3 series, 199 cu. in.), but again- even if it's a bit heavier that isn't a drawback necessarily. Parts availability seems to be the big issue with these engines. Note the 65 HP Franklin that was used on Ernie Moreno's Piet, at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/piets.html and you'll see that the engine mount is quite long on this airplane. The 90HP may make a better installation with a shorter nose. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:12 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson Why is everyone ignoring the AN4-15?? This is the next longer grip at 1 3/16. This is the one to use. You're allowed two washers and you have a choice of thick or thin. Also, as mentioned you should be using a fender washer next to the wood which will take up some of that extra 1/16". Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catdesigns" Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 8:49 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hardware question > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Catdesigns" > > > A question about hardware, > > Question: What length bolt to use. > > Hypothetical situation, say we have a -inch thick structural member and we > need to bolt a 1/8th-inch thick fitting to one side. This would make the > through hole length 1 1/8th-inches long. I am guessing the bolt should be > based on the grip length, so in this case I would choose a bolt with a > grip length of 1 1/8th-inch. According to the charts there are no bolts > with a grip length of 1 1/8-inch. So I would choose a dash 16 (AN4-16 for > instance) which has a length of 1 5/16. I would choose this so the > threaded portion of the bolt is longer then the through hole length. I > would take up the extra length with a washer. This works fine until you > try to use a safety wire nut on a drilled bolt, the nut seems to be below > the hole in the shank, and thus the safety wire will not hold the nut. > > Follow on question, is it ok to have the threads in the fitting hole? I > would assume if you had threads in the wood part of the hole it would be > ok. > > Also, is everyone using the large diameter wood washers under the side of > the bolt against wood (head or nut)? > > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, Ca > > >