---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/18/06: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:11 AM - Re: Bad Fuel (Hans Vander Voort) 2. 06:11 AM - Re: Completed Piet in Sport Aviation (Hans Vander Voort) 3. 07:49 AM - Re: First flight.. (Jeff Boatright) 4. 09:02 AM - Re: First flight.. (Gene & Tammy) 5. 09:17 AM - Re: First flight.. (Hans Vander Voort) 6. 10:03 AM - Re: First flight.. (Gary Gower) 7. 10:37 AM - Re: First flight.. (Gene & Tammy) 8. 10:47 AM - Re: First flight.. () 9. 11:19 AM - Re: First flight.. (James Dallas) 10. 11:22 AM - Re: First flight.. (bike.mike) 11. 12:05 PM - Re: First flight.. (Hans Vander Voort) 12. 12:12 PM - Re: First flight.. () 13. 12:16 PM - Re: First flight.. (Hans Vander Voort) 14. 12:23 PM - Re: First flight.. (Robert Gow) 15. 12:41 PM - Re: First flight.. (Graham Hansen) 16. 07:24 PM - Re: props on corvair motors (Roman Bukolt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad Fuel From: Hans Vander Voort --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Shad I run a Tennessee prop 64 x 34 Static is about 2900 RPM Hans shad bell To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad Fuel 09/09/2006 12:05 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Man! that sounds all too famillar. We ran only 100LL in our corvair but that sounds like similar symtoms. Eventually our crank broke and luckly we did not tear up the airplane. I'm by far no expert on corvairs but what is your static rpm, climb-out rpm and what prop are you using. We are grounded, probobly untill next spring when we rebuild another engine. We are using a Heggy 66-30 (I believe) wodden prop and we were getting 3150-3300 static. I'm just currious about others performance with the corvairs. Shad Hans Vander Voort wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Well it's awfully quiet on the list for the last few days Here is something to get things started: I went out flying yesterday in the Piet, another hot afternoon but humidity was for a change below 50% I took of to the North and made a wide circle around the home field climbing up to 1200 feet. Dove hunting season has started in Texas, so low and slow is asking for trouble. (FLAK) 10 minutes in to the flight my Corvair engine CHT climbed up to 475 F, that never happened before thus I set up for a landing. On final temperature dropped again (engine idling), while on the ground I did another run up, everything checked out OK Decided to take her up again. During climb out at 500 feet the engine became erratic and dropped a good 500 RPM. I decided to land right away, engine ran fine again when power was reduced. I strongly suspect that my recent fill-up with Mogas was not the octane level as was advertised, every thing indicated detonation. It is hard to hear in a open cockpit but I did hear a ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Completed Piet in Sport Aviation From: Hans Vander Voort --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort I had send that picture in twelve months ago. Yes, I believe Mogas was the culprit. Did not find any water in the fuel but did have some dirt in the gascolator. Drained the fuel tank and flushed the complete fuel system. I will pull the cylinder heads this weekend, just to make sure nothing else is wrong Hans Rcaprd@aol.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-l To ist-server@matron pietenpol-list@matronics.com ics.com cc Subject 09/11/2006 08:42 Re: Pietenpol-List: Completed Piet PM in Sport Aviation Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com In a message dated 9/11/2006 11:46:57 AM Central Standard Time, johnegan99@yahoo.com writes: Congratulations goes to Hans Van der Voort. I see Hans has complimented the "completions" section of the recent "EAA Sport Aviation" magazine with his Pietenpol. Nice work Hans. Do not archive. Yes, I saw that one. Congrats to Hans !! Hey Hans, did you confirm that the MoGas was the culprit on your last flight ? I'm very interested in your conclusion, and I'm sure many others are too. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:03 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep climb-out? At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >flight. -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:50 AM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene & Tammy" Jeff, I'd like to throw my two cents in on the question "what's wrong with a steep climb out?". I come from a back ground of both general avation and two stroke airplanes and I'm familiar with both. I currently own and fly a Piet (N502R) with a Continental A 65 and my plane before it was an Avid with a 75 HP 2 stroke. Plus I've owned and flown a number of others. Loved them all. The problem with a steep climb out on take off is if your engine quites you won't have time to get the nose down into a glide (flying speed) before you return to earth. Not good on airframes or human anatomy. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and it has never stopped amazing me how many Alaskan pilots manage to kill themselves and others with a steep climb out. One friend of mine (and a very experienced pilot) took off from his home field in his Super Cub with his small son and his father-in-law on board. His wife and mother-in-law were watching from their living room window. Steep climb out, engine died and so did all three on board (with wife and mother-in-law still watching.). That next winter another pilot that we had both known was killed doing the same thing from a frozen lake. He had put his cub into a steep takeoff climb, showing off to his friends on the ground. He died because he had neglected to turn on his fuel switch and in a steep climbout he just didn't have the speed or altitude to keep from stalling out. Try this. Go up to about 2500 or higher, put your plane into a steep climb just above stall speed, note your altitude and turn the engine off. Once you have your plane back under control and your flying again note your altitude and restart your engine. It'll make a believer out of you. The way I look at it, is that I do enough dumb things while flying that I don't need to do the dumb things that I know will get me killed. Gene riginal Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: >> >>Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >>doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >>and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >>thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >>flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. From: Hans Vander Voort --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb. With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed. All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not all that large. I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds and log the climb rate for each speed. You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation. My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on a cool winter day) This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway, (push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude) while speed never exceeds 55 Mph. Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not a higher altitude at the end of the minute. Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude, Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleet first. Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph. And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph. If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitude first! Be safe! Hans Jeff Boatright To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 09:44 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep climb-out? At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >flight. -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:39 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Hello Jeff, One very important note: The 2,500 ft that Gene is talking about in this test have to be above ground level, or ASL if you do the test over the ocean... 3 friends from our club have died from take off stall (in 15 years)... Is the worse thing to happen... all the friends are watching the pilot get killed. Very sad, one has to notify the family... Worse. Also explain to our families and friends that aviation is safe, at every reunion for years Too much work, Lets all fly safe please. Saludos Gary Gower. Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Gene & Tammy wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene & Tammy" Jeff, I'd like to throw my two cents in on the question "what's wrong with a steep climb out?". I come from a back ground of both general avation and two stroke airplanes and I'm familiar with both. I currently own and fly a Piet (N502R) with a Continental A 65 and my plane before it was an Avid with a 75 HP 2 stroke. Plus I've owned and flown a number of others. Loved them all. The problem with a steep climb out on take off is if your engine quites you won't have time to get the nose down into a glide (flying speed) before you return to earth. Not good on airframes or human anatomy. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and it has never stopped amazing me how many Alaskan pilots manage to kill themselves and others with a steep climb out. One friend of mine (and a very experienced pilot) took off from his home field in his Super Cub with his small son and his father-in-law on board. His wife and mother-in-law were watching from their living room window. Steep climb out, engine died and so did all three on board (with wife and mother-in-law still watching.). That next winter another pilot that we had both known was killed doing the same thing from a frozen lake. He had put his cub into a steep takeoff climb, showing off to his friends on the ground. He died because he had neglected to turn on his fuel switch and in a steep climbout he just didn't have the speed or altitude to keep from stalling out. Try this. Go up to about 2500 or higher, put your plane into a steep climb just above stall speed, note your altitude and turn the engine off. Once you have your plane back under control and your flying again note your altitude and restart your engine. It'll make a believer out of you. The way I look at it, is that I do enough dumb things while flying that I don't need to do the dumb things that I know will get me killed. Gene riginal Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: >> >>Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >>doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >>and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >>thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >>flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:08 AM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Gary, Thank you for making AGL clear. I made an error when I assumed I was making it clear. It's that kind of mistake that can get someone killed. Again, thank you Gene----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Hello Jeff, One very important note: The 2,500 ft that Gene is talking about in this test have to be above ground level, or ASL if you do the test over the ocean... 3 friends from our club have died from take off stall (in 15 years)... Is the worse thing to happen... all the friends are watching the pilot get killed. Very sad, one has to notify the family... Worse. Also explain to our families and friends that aviation is safe, at every reunion for years Too much work, Lets all fly safe please. Saludos Gary Gower. Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Gene & Tammy wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene & Tammy" Jeff, I'd like to throw my two cents in on the question "what's wrong with a steep climb out?". I come from a back ground of both general avation and two stroke airplanes and I'm familiar with both. I currently own and fly a Piet (N502R) with a Continental A 65 and my plane before it was an Avid with a 75 HP 2 stroke. Plus I've owned and flown a number of others. Loved them all. The problem with a steep climb out on take off is if your engine quites you won't have time to get the nose down into a glide (flying speed) before you return to earth. Not good on airframes or human anatomy. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and it has never stopped amazing me how many Alaskan pilots manage to kill themselves and others with a steep climb out. One friend of mine (and a very experienced pilot) took off from his home field in his Super Cub with his small son and his father-in-law on board. His wife and mother-in-law were watching from their living room window. Steep climb out, engine died and so did all three on board (with wife and mother-in-law still watching.). That next winter another pilot that we had both known was killed doing the same thing from a frozen lake. He had put his cub into a steep takeoff climb, showing off to his friends on the ground. He died because he had neglected to turn on his fuel switch and in a steep climbout he just didn't have the speed or altitude to keep from stalling out. Try this. Go up to about 2500 or higher, put your plane into a steep climb just above stall speed, note your altitude and turn the engine off. Once you have your plane back under control and your flying again note your altitude and restart your engine. It'll make a believer out of you. The way I look at it, is that I do enough dumb things while flying that I don't need to do the dumb things that I know will get me killed. Gene riginal Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" To: Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: >> >>Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >>doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >>and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >>thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >>flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. From: I noticed that some pilots set their altimeter to zero at the location their plane is and others will add in the level they are above sea level or what the book sez the airstrip is above sea level.What is the correct way?In my own mind,I always figured it was good to zero at the level you were at and go from there.Thanks for any info you can give on this in advance. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene & Tammy Sent: September 18, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Gary, Thank you for making AGL clear. I made an error when I assumed I was making it clear. It's that kind of mistake that can get someone killed. Again, thank you Gene----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Hello Jeff, One very important note: The 2,500 ft that Gene is talking about in this test have to be above ground level, or ASL if you do the test over the ocean... 3 friends from our club have died from take off stall (in 15 years)... Is the worse thing to happen... all the friends are watching the pilot get killed. Very sad, one has to notify the family... Worse. Also explain to our families and friends that aviation is safe, at every reunion for years Too much work, Lets all fly safe please. Saludos Gary Gower. Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Gene & Tammy wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene & Tammy" Jeff, I'd like to throw my two cents in on the question "what's wrong with a steep climb out?". I come from a back ground of both general avation and two stroke airplanes and I'm familiar with both. I currently own and fly a Piet (N502R) with a Continental A 65 and my plane before it was an Avid with a 75 HP 2 stroke. Plus I've owned and flown a number of others. Loved them all. The problem with a steep climb out on take off is if your engine quites you won't have time to get the nose down into a glide (flying speed) before you return to earth. Not good on airframes or human anatomy. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and it has never stopped amazing me how many Alaskan pilots manage to kill themselves and others with a steep climb out. One friend of mine (and a very experienced pilot) took off from his home field in his Super Cub with his small son and his father-in-law on board. His wife and mother-in-law were watching from their living room window. Steep climb out, engine died and so did all three on board (with wife and mother-in-law still watching.). That next winter another pilot that we had both known was killed doing the same thing from a frozen lake. He had put his cub into a steep takeoff climb, showing off to his friends on the ground. He died because he had neglected to turn on his fuel switch and in a steep climbout he just didn't have the speed or altitude to keep from stalling out. Try this. Go up to about 2500 or higher, put your plane into a steep climb just above stall speed, note your altitude and turn the engine off. Once you have your plane back under control and your flying again note your altitude and restart your engine. It'll make a believer out of you. The way I look at it, is that I do enough dumb things while flying that I don't need to do the dumb things that I know will get me killed. Gene riginal Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" To: Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: >> >>Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >>doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >>and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >>thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >>flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:02 AM PST US From: "James Dallas" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with the relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed strait down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall. Jim Dallas ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Vander Voort To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort > The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb. With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed. All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not all that large. I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds and log the climb rate for each speed. You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation. My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on a cool winter day) This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway, (push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude) while speed never exceeds 55 Mph. Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not a higher altitude at the end of the minute. Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude, Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleet first. Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph. And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph. If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitude first! Be safe! Hans Jeff Boatright u> To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 09:44 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep climb-out? At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, > wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >flight. -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:16 AM PST US From: "bike.mike" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. That's what sky divers do. Pilots, on the other hand, set their altimeters to the altitude at which the airplane sets. (If you were at Leadville, Colorado, and tried to set your altimeter to zero, you would break it.) Always set to actual field elevation when on the ground or to local altimeter setting (sea-level equivalent barometric pressure, given in inches of mercury) when flying. That way you don't have to get into mental math when you go to a different field at a different elevation. ----- Original Message ----- From: harvey.rule@bell.ca To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. I noticed that some pilots set their altimeter to zero at the location their plane is and others will add in the level they are above sea level or what the book sez the airstrip is above sea level.What is the correct way?In my own mind,I always figured it was good to zero at the level you were at and go from there.Thanks for any info you can give on this in advance. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. From: Hans Vander Voort Jim, I am not, but perhaps I was not entirely clear. I was merely trying to make the point that paying attention to safe air speed is more important than the steep climb. I frequently take off in to a 10 Mph head wind ( this is 10 at ground level) At 500 feet this head wind can gradually increase to 20 Mph. Seen from the ground your have now a very steep climb ( your forward, ground speed is very slow) Yet, your AOA is less than stall angle. I do not believe you can get a high speed stall in Pietenpol, the speed range is fairly small. Did anyone ever achieve a snap roll in a Pietenpol ( someone was bragging about a Lomchevak once) (Embedded image moved to file: pic27446.jpg) .. Hans "James Dallas" Sent by: To owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron cc ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 01:18 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with the relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed strait down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall. Jim Dallas ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Vander Voort To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort < hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb. With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed. All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not all that large. I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds and log the climb rate for each speed. You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation. My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on a cool winter day) This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway, (push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude) while speed never exceeds 55 Mph. Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not a higher altitude at the end of the minute. Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude, Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleet first. Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph. And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph. If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitude first! Be safe! Hans Jeff Boatright To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 09:44 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep climb-out? At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >flight. -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:00 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. From: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeeeeeze I can't imagine anyone even wanting to try a snap Role in a Piet. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander Voort Sent: September 18, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Jim, I am not, but perhaps I was not entirely clear. I was merely trying to make the point that paying attention to safe air speed is more important than the steep climb. I frequently take off in to a 10 Mph head wind ( this is 10 at ground level) At 500 feet this head wind can gradually increase to 20 Mph. Seen from the ground your have now a very steep climb ( your forward, ground speed is very slow) Yet, your AOA is less than stall angle. I do not believe you can get a high speed stall in Pietenpol, the speed range is fairly small. Did anyone ever achieve a snap roll in a Pietenpol ( someone was bragging about a Lomchevak once) (Embedded image moved to file: pic27446.jpg) .. Hans "James Dallas" Sent by: To owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron cc ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 01:18 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with the relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed strait down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall. Jim Dallas ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Vander Voort To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort < hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb. With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed. All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not all that large. I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds and log the climb rate for each speed. You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation. My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on a cool winter day) This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway, (push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude) while speed never exceeds 55 Mph. Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not a higher altitude at the end of the minute. Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude, Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleet first. Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph. And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph. If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitude first! Be safe! Hans Jeff Boatright To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 09:44 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep climb-out? At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >flight. -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:40 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. From: Hans Vander Voort --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Harvey, I believe both methods are correct and legal, but which one to choose depends on your flight. If you land on the same field you took off from (local flight) than setting at zero is OK. But if you go cross country than calibrating to sea level is no doubt the easy way to go, as all maps are indicating sea level elevations. Further, If flying at higher altitudes VFR and IFR flight levels apply and these are set a sea level. Hans Sent by: To owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron cc ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 12:46 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com I noticed that some pilots set their altimeter to zero at the location their plane is and others will add in the level they are above sea level or what the book sez the airstrip is above sea level.What is the correct way?In my own mind,I always figured it was good to zero at the level you were at and go from there.Thanks for any info you can give on this in advance. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene & Tammy Sent: September 18, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Gary, Thank you for making AGL clear. I made an error when I assumed I was making it clear. It's that kind of mistake that can get someone killed. Again, thank you Gene----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Hello Jeff, One very important note: The 2,500 ft that Gene is talking about in this test have to be above ground level, or ASL if you do the test over the ocean... 3 friends from our club have died from take off stall (in 15 years)... Is the worse thing to happen... all the friends are watching the pilot get killed. Very sad, one has to notify the family... Worse. Also explain to our families and friends that aviation is safe, at every reunion for years Too much work, Lets all fly safe please. Saludos Gary Gower. Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Gene & Tammy wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene & Tammy" Jeff, I'd like to throw my two cents in on the question "what's wrong with a steep climb out?". I come from a back ground of both general avation and two stroke airplanes and I'm familiar with both. I currently own and fly a Piet (N502R) with a Continental A 65 and my plane before it was an Avid with a 75 HP 2 stroke. Plus I've owned and flown a number of others. Loved them all. The problem with a steep climb out on take off is if your engine quites you won't have time to get the nose down into a glide (flying speed) before you return to earth. Not good on airframes or human anatomy. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and it has never stopped amazing me how many Alaskan pilots manage to kill themselves and others with a steep climb out. One friend of mine (and a very experienced pilot) took off from his home field in his Super Cub with his small son and his father-in-law on board. His wife and mother-in-law were watching from their living room window. Steep climb out, engine died and so did all three on board (with wife and mother-in-law still watching.). That next winter another pilot that we had both known was killed doing the same thing from a frozen lake. He had put his cub into a steep takeoff climb, showing off to his friends on the ground. He died because he had neglected to turn on his fuel switch and in a steep climbout he just didn't have the speed or altitude to keep from stalling out. Try this. Go up to about 2500 or higher, put your plane into a steep climb just above stall speed, note your altitude and turn the engine off. Once you have your plane back under control and your flying again note your altitude and restart your engine. It'll make a believer out of you. The way I look at it, is that I do enough dumb things while flying that I don't need to do the dumb things that I know will get me killed. Gene riginal Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" To: Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: >> >>Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >>doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >>and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >>thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >>flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:01 PM PST US From: "Robert Gow" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Gow" What about a clipped-wing Piet with 180 hp? -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: September 18, 2006 3:11 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeeeeeze I can't imagine anyone even wanting to try a snap Role in a Piet. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander Voort Sent: September 18, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Jim, I am not, but perhaps I was not entirely clear. I was merely trying to make the point that paying attention to safe air speed is more important than the steep climb. I frequently take off in to a 10 Mph head wind ( this is 10 at ground level) At 500 feet this head wind can gradually increase to 20 Mph. Seen from the ground your have now a very steep climb ( your forward, ground speed is very slow) Yet, your AOA is less than stall angle. I do not believe you can get a high speed stall in Pietenpol, the speed range is fairly small. Did anyone ever achieve a snap roll in a Pietenpol ( someone was bragging about a Lomchevak once) (Embedded image moved to file: pic27446.jpg) .. Hans "James Dallas" Sent by: To owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron cc ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 01:18 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with the relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed strait down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall. Jim Dallas ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Vander Voort To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort < hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb. With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed. All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not all that large. I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds and log the climb rate for each speed. You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation. My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on a cool winter day) This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway, (push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude) while speed never exceeds 55 Mph. Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not a higher altitude at the end of the minute. Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude, Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleet first. Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph. And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph. If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitude first! Be safe! Hans Jeff Boatright To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 09:44 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep climb-out? At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >flight. -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:16 PM PST US From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Harvey, I did my Private Pilot Licence on a 65 hp Aeronca Champion many years ago at Calgary, Alberta. The field elevation there is 3500 feet asl, and we were taught to hold the nose down after liftoff until a climbing speed of 65 mph was achieved. Then, and only then, were we allowed to raise the nose for the climb, while maintaining 65 mph. Sometimes, without warning, the instructor would pull off the power and we had to immediately lower the nose to maintain the gliding/climbing speed of 65 mph. All gliding and climbing turns were made at 70 mph and he was very strict in this regard. 56 years later, I am still around---likely because of what I was taught then (plus some luck). These procedures ensured that we never got close to the stalling angle of attack of the Champ wing, and provided control inputs were well-coordinated, we were pretty safe. Since my Pietenpol is more-or-less in the same class as the old Aeronca 7AC, I have always used these numbers for it, keeping in mind the Pietenpol is lighter and draggier than the Champ. In the event of an engine failure with the Pietenpol, one must react immediately by very aggressively lowering the nose to maintain airspeed. If airspeed is lost during climbout when you have little altitude available, you could be in big trouble. With a Pietenpol, it takes a lot of altitude to recover lost airspeed. Try it sometime at a safe altitude once you have become more familiar with your bird. With my 85 hp Pietenpol I like to climb out at 70 mph, considering the extra airspeed to be "trading material" in an emergency. The rate of climb isn't reduced very much by climbing out at 70. Once I am above 500 feet agl, I typically climb at 65. Essentially I am saying that one should fly carefully when near the ground---especially with a draggy airplane. Your airfield near Ottawa is only slightly above sea level, and that helps. My airfield is at 2500' asl and I must be very careful---particularly with a load. Regarding your question about setting the altimeter, I always set it at the field elevation before takeoff. Aerobatic pilots, I have been told, set it at zero in order to get a direct ground clearance reading without having to do mental computations; they are too busy for that sort of thing. Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:58 PM PST US From: "Roman Bukolt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: props on corvair motors Follow up on prop pitch: I called William Wynne today because when I had him order my prop for my Pietenpol, he recommended a 64 x 33 prop. So, today I called him to tell him they shipped me a prop with a 52 in. pitch. After he seemed to recover from a near fatal cardiac arrest, he mentioned someone was supposed to get a 54 x 52 prop for his small high performance plane. Now William is thinking Sensenich somehow screwed up and probably made this guy a 54 x 33 prop. William said he'd talk to Sensenich and get this all ironed out, then call me back. Haven't heard from him yet. Maybe he DID succumb to a cardiac arrest?? Anyway a 64 x 52 prop is NOT a good idea for a Piet. Stay tuned for continued coverage of the Sensenich Saga. ----- Original Message ----- From: Roman Bukolt To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: props on corvair motors Hi! I just received my prop yesterday which I purchased through William Wynne. At his request, I sent him a check for $700 in May. He, then, ordered the prop from Sensenich. It's a beautiful piece of woodwork with somewhat of a scimitar shape. Diameter is 64 " and the pitch is 52 ". ----- Original Message ----- From: TGSTONE236@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 2:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: props on corvair motors I am curious as to the props used on Corvair engines on the Pietenpol. The composite props do not look right on the 70 + year old design. what length and pitch are most of you using and what Prop company manufactured it or did you make your own? Ted Stone I have quite aways to go before I need a prop. ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List