---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/19/06: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:42 AM - Re: First flight.. (bryan green) 2. 04:11 AM - Re: First flight.. (bryan green) 3. 07:26 AM - Re: First flight.. (Hans Vander Voort) 4. 08:01 AM - Re: First flight.. () 5. 08:05 AM - Re: First flight.. () 6. 08:41 AM - Re: First flight.. (Barry Davis) 7. 09:18 AM - Please delete original message! (Martin Vandenbroek) 8. 09:20 AM - Re: First flight.. () 9. 06:52 PM - Re: First flight..First flight.. (Mark Smith) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:03 AM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. If your doing a cross country flight monitor awos broadcast along the way and reset your altimeter often. Bryan Green (Elgin SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: bike.mike To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. That's what sky divers do. Pilots, on the other hand, set their altimeters to the altitude at which the airplane sets. (If you were at Leadville, Colorado, and tried to set your altimeter to zero, you would break it.) Always set to actual field elevation when on the ground or to local altimeter setting (sea-level equivalent barometric pressure, given in inches of mercury) when flying. That way you don't have to get into mental math when you go to a different field at a different elevation. ----- Original Message ----- From: harvey.rule@bell.ca To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. I noticed that some pilots set their altimeter to zero at the location their plane is and others will add in the level they are above sea level or what the book sez the airstrip is above sea level.What is the correct way?In my own mind,I always figured it was good to zero at the level you were at and go from there.Thanks for any info you can give on this in advance. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:18 AM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bryan green" I'm confused, what does wind speed have to do with climb angle? I would much rather climb out shallow 5 mph over stall then steep at 20 mph over. If your flying along straight and level then cut your engine while trying to hold altitude you will reach critical angle of attack at about 18 deg. and stall. With only mother nature for power and no engine you will have to drop the nose below level maybe 10 deg. to start flying again that's 28 deg. total movement to start flying again. Now if your climbing out at a 45 deg. deck angle and lose your engine your relative wind goes away almost instantly which leaves you 45 deg. nose up with at least 10 below level to start flying. That's 55 deg. total movement to fly again. You will not have enough altitude to achieve this before messing up a good airplane and runway. Bryan Green (Elgin SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Vander Voort" Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > Jim, > > I am not, but perhaps I was not entirely clear. > I was merely trying to make the point that paying attention to safe air > speed is more important than the steep climb. > > I frequently take off in to a 10 Mph head wind ( this is 10 at ground > level) > At 500 feet this head wind can gradually increase to 20 Mph. > > Seen from the ground your have now a very steep climb ( your forward, > ground speed is very slow) > Yet, your AOA is less than stall angle. > > I do not believe you can get a high speed stall in Pietenpol, the speed > range is fairly small. > Did anyone ever achieve a snap roll in a Pietenpol ( someone was bragging > about a Lomchevak once) > > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic27446.jpg) > . > > Hans > > > "James Dallas" > > Sent by: To > owner-pietenpol-l > ist-server@matron cc > ics.com > Subject > Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > 09/18/2006 01:18 > PM > > > Please respond to > pietenpol-list@ma > tronics.com > > > Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with > the > relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you > are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed > strait > down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go > to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are > basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall. > > Jim Dallas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hans Vander Voort > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:16 AM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort < > hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> > > The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb. > With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed. > > All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not all > that large. > > I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds and > log the climb rate for each speed. > You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation. > > My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on a > cool winter day) > This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway, > (push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude) > while speed never exceeds 55 Mph. > Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not a > higher altitude at the end of the minute. > > Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude, > Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleet > first. > > Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph. > And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph. > > If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitude > first! > > Be safe! > > Hans > > > Jeff Boatright > > > u> To > > Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > owner-pietenpol-l cc > > ist-server@matron > > ics.com Subject > > RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > > > 09/18/2006 09:44 > > AM > > > Please respond to > > pietenpol-list@ma > > tronics.com > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still > >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far > >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I > >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next > >flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:31 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. From: Hans Vander Voort --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Bryan, It all a matter perception, for spectators on the ground a strong head wind will create the illusion of a steep climb angle For the airplane and its pilot there is little difference if he maintains a safe airspeed. Ever "hovered" a Pietenpol in a strong head wind (30 - 40 Mph and going nowhere) Please do not try at low altitudes! Be safe Hans "bryan green" To Sent by: owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/19/2006 06:10 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bryan green" I'm confused, what does wind speed have to do with climb angle? I would much rather climb out shallow 5 mph over stall then steep at 20 mph over. If your flying along straight and level then cut your engine while trying to hold altitude you will reach critical angle of attack at about 18 deg. and stall. With only mother nature for power and no engine you will have to drop the nose below level maybe 10 deg. to start flying again that's 28 deg. total movement to start flying again. Now if your climbing out at a 45 deg. deck angle and lose your engine your relative wind goes away almost instantly which leaves you 45 deg. nose up with at least 10 below level to start flying. That's 55 deg. total movement to fly again. You will not have enough altitude to achieve this before messing up a good airplane and runway. Bryan Green (Elgin SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Vander Voort" Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > Jim, > > I am not, but perhaps I was not entirely clear. > I was merely trying to make the point that paying attention to safe air > speed is more important than the steep climb. > > I frequently take off in to a 10 Mph head wind ( this is 10 at ground > level) > At 500 feet this head wind can gradually increase to 20 Mph. > > Seen from the ground your have now a very steep climb ( your forward, > ground speed is very slow) > Yet, your AOA is less than stall angle. > > I do not believe you can get a high speed stall in Pietenpol, the speed > range is fairly small. > Did anyone ever achieve a snap roll in a Pietenpol ( someone was bragging > about a Lomchevak once) > > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic27446.jpg) > . > > Hans > > > "James Dallas" > > Sent by: To > owner-pietenpol-l > ist-server@matron cc > ics.com > Subject > Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > 09/18/2006 01:18 > PM > > > Please respond to > pietenpol-list@ma > tronics.com > > > Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with > the > relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you > are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed > strait > down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go > to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are > basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall. > > Jim Dallas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hans Vander Voort > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:16 AM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort < > hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> > > The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb. > With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed. > > All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not all > that large. > > I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds and > log the climb rate for each speed. > You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation. > > My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on a > cool winter day) > This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway, > (push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude) > while speed never exceeds 55 Mph. > Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not a > higher altitude at the end of the minute. > > Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude, > Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleet > first. > > Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph. > And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph. > > If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitude > first! > > Be safe! > > Hans > > > Jeff Boatright > > > u> To > > Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > owner-pietenpol-l cc > > ist-server@matron > > ics.com Subject > > RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > > > 09/18/2006 09:44 > > AM > > > Please respond to > > pietenpol-list@ma > > tronics.com > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still > >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far > >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I > >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next > >flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:02 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. From: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: I have actually flown backwards in a Lazair ultralight and this same thing has happened to a few pilots in the Bermuda triangle which have made them think they were some where else when in fact they were not there at all.GPS has probably helped solve this problem. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander Voort Sent: September 19, 2006 10:26 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort Bryan, It all a matter perception, for spectators on the ground a strong head wind will create the illusion of a steep climb angle For the airplane and its pilot there is little difference if he maintains a safe airspeed. Ever "hovered" a Pietenpol in a strong head wind (30 - 40 Mph and going nowhere) Please do not try at low altitudes! Be safe Hans "bryan green" To Sent by: owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/19/2006 06:10 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bryan green" I'm confused, what does wind speed have to do with climb angle? I would much rather climb out shallow 5 mph over stall then steep at 20 mph over. If your flying along straight and level then cut your engine while trying to hold altitude you will reach critical angle of attack at about 18 deg. and stall. With only mother nature for power and no engine you will have to drop the nose below level maybe 10 deg. to start flying again that's 28 deg. total movement to start flying again. Now if your climbing out at a 45 deg. deck angle and lose your engine your relative wind goes away almost instantly which leaves you 45 deg. nose up with at least 10 below level to start flying. That's 55 deg. total movement to fly again. You will not have enough altitude to achieve this before messing up a good airplane and runway. Bryan Green (Elgin SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Vander Voort" Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > Jim, > > I am not, but perhaps I was not entirely clear. > I was merely trying to make the point that paying attention to safe air > speed is more important than the steep climb. > > I frequently take off in to a 10 Mph head wind ( this is 10 at ground > level) > At 500 feet this head wind can gradually increase to 20 Mph. > > Seen from the ground your have now a very steep climb ( your forward, > ground speed is very slow) > Yet, your AOA is less than stall angle. > > I do not believe you can get a high speed stall in Pietenpol, the speed > range is fairly small. > Did anyone ever achieve a snap roll in a Pietenpol ( someone was bragging > about a Lomchevak once) > > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic27446.jpg) > . > > Hans > > > "James Dallas" > > Sent by: To > owner-pietenpol-l > ist-server@matron cc > ics.com > Subject > Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > 09/18/2006 01:18 > PM > > > Please respond to > pietenpol-list@ma > tronics.com > > > Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with > the > relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you > are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed > strait > down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go > to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are > basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall. > > Jim Dallas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hans Vander Voort > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:16 AM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort < > hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> > > The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb. > With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed. > > All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not all > that large. > > I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds and > log the climb rate for each speed. > You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation. > > My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on a > cool winter day) > This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway, > (push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude) > while speed never exceeds 55 Mph. > Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not a > higher altitude at the end of the minute. > > Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude, > Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleet > first. > > Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph. > And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph. > > If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitude > first! > > Be safe! > > Hans > > > Jeff Boatright > > > u> To > > Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > owner-pietenpol-l cc > > ist-server@matron > > ics.com Subject > > RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > > > 09/18/2006 09:44 > > AM > > > Please respond to > > pietenpol-list@ma > > tronics.com > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still > >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far > >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I > >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next > >flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:46 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. From: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: A good head wind makes a lot of difference .Case in point was the attempt by the establishment to reinact the Wright Brother flight at Kitty Hawk.They didn't have the head wind that the Wrights had and ultimately they didn't get airborn which was the whole reason for going to Kitty Hawk in the first place. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bryan green Sent: September 19, 2006 7:11 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bryan green" I'm confused, what does wind speed have to do with climb angle? I would much rather climb out shallow 5 mph over stall then steep at 20 mph over. If your flying along straight and level then cut your engine while trying to hold altitude you will reach critical angle of attack at about 18 deg. and stall. With only mother nature for power and no engine you will have to drop the nose below level maybe 10 deg. to start flying again that's 28 deg. total movement to start flying again. Now if your climbing out at a 45 deg. deck angle and lose your engine your relative wind goes away almost instantly which leaves you 45 deg. nose up with at least 10 below level to start flying. That's 55 deg. total movement to fly again. You will not have enough altitude to achieve this before messing up a good airplane and runway. Bryan Green (Elgin SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Vander Voort" Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > Jim, > > I am not, but perhaps I was not entirely clear. > I was merely trying to make the point that paying attention to safe air > speed is more important than the steep climb. > > I frequently take off in to a 10 Mph head wind ( this is 10 at ground > level) > At 500 feet this head wind can gradually increase to 20 Mph. > > Seen from the ground your have now a very steep climb ( your forward, > ground speed is very slow) > Yet, your AOA is less than stall angle. > > I do not believe you can get a high speed stall in Pietenpol, the speed > range is fairly small. > Did anyone ever achieve a snap roll in a Pietenpol ( someone was bragging > about a Lomchevak once) > > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic27446.jpg) > . > > Hans > > > "James Dallas" > > Sent by: To > owner-pietenpol-l > ist-server@matron cc > ics.com > Subject > Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > 09/18/2006 01:18 > PM > > > Please respond to > pietenpol-list@ma > tronics.com > > > Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with > the > relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you > are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed > strait > down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go > to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are > basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall. > > Jim Dallas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hans Vander Voort > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:16 AM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Hans Vander Voort < > hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> > > The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb. > With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed. > > All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not all > that large. > > I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds and > log the climb rate for each speed. > You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation. > > My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on a > cool winter day) > This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway, > (push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude) > while speed never exceeds 55 Mph. > Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not a > higher altitude at the end of the minute. > > Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude, > Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleet > first. > > Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph. > And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph. > > If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitude > first! > > Be safe! > > Hans > > > Jeff Boatright > > > u> To > > Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > owner-pietenpol-l cc > > ist-server@matron > > ics.com Subject > > RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > > > 09/18/2006 09:44 > > AM > > > Please respond to > > pietenpol-list@ma > > tronics.com > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still > >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far > >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I > >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next > >flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:42 AM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Only an aerobatic pilot will set at zero to fly an airshow. Then set it to field elevation to fly home. ----- Original Message ----- From: harvey.rule@bell.ca To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. I noticed that some pilots set their altimeter to zero at the location their plane is and others will add in the level they are above sea level or what the book sez the airstrip is above sea level.What is the correct way?In my own mind,I always figured it was good to zero at the level you were at and go from there.Thanks for any info you can give on this in advance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene & Tammy Sent: September 18, 2006 1:36 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Gary, Thank you for making AGL clear. I made an error when I assumed I was making it clear. It's that kind of mistake that can get someone killed. Again, thank you Gene----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Hello Jeff, One very important note: The 2,500 ft that Gene is talking about in this test have to be above ground level, or ASL if you do the test over the ocean... 3 friends from our club have died from take off stall (in 15 years)... Is the worse thing to happen... all the friends are watching the pilot get killed. Very sad, one has to notify the family... Worse. Also explain to our families and friends that aviation is safe, at every reunion for years Too much work, Lets all fly safe please. Saludos Gary Gower. Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Gene & Tammy wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene & Tammy" Jeff, I'd like to throw my two cents in on the question "what's wrong with a steep climb out?". I come from a back ground of both general avation and two stroke airplanes and I'm familiar with both. I currently own and fly a Piet (N502R) with a Continental A 65 and my plane before it was an Avid with a 75 HP 2 stroke. Plus I've owned and flown a number of others. Loved them all. The problem with a steep climb out on take off is if your engine quites you won't have time to get the nose down into a glide (flying speed) before you return to earth. Not good on airframes or human anatomy. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and it has never stopped amazing me how many Alaskan pilots manage to kill themselves and others with a steep climb out. One friend of mine (and a very experienced pilot) took off from his home field in his Super Cub with his small son and his father-in-law on board. His wife and mother-in-law were watching from their living room window. Steep climb out, engine died and so did all three on board (with wife and mother-in-law still watching.). That next winter another pilot that we had both known was killed doing the same thing from a frozen lake. He had put his cub into a steep takeoff climb, showing off to his friends on the ground. He died because he had neglected to turn on his fuel switch and in a steep climbout he just didn't have the speed or altitude to keep from stalling out. Try this. Go up to about 2500 or higher, put your plane into a steep climb just above stall speed, note your altitude and turn the engine off. Once you have your plane back under control and your flying again note your altitude and restart your engine. It'll make a believer out of you. The way I look at it, is that I do enough dumb things while flying that I don't need to do the dumb things that I know will get me killed. Gene riginal Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" To: Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: >> >>Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >>doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >>and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >>thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >>flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:36 AM PST US From: Martin Vandenbroek Subject: Pietenpol-List: Please delete original message! --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Martin Vandenbroek This is for all Piet listers. When responding to other posts please delete the original, we are all reading the same messages and are familiar with the thread you are responding to. It clutters up the list and I'm sure it affects the bandwidth requirements. Matt Dralle also mentions this on occasion but it continues to happen. Just highlight the original (or portions of it) and delete before sending your response, OR send a private message to the sender if it only applies to him. Love the list though. Read every day! -- "Time is what prevents everything from happening at once." John Archibald Wheeler ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:12 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. From: Thanks to all who replyed on this.it is now clear to me that it depends on the circumstances that dictate how it is set up.Both are right in there own case.Since I very seldom travel much more than a few miles away from my home base at this time I think I will zero at the ground I take off from and when I decide to go on a long trip I will then adjust to the field level ASL. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Davis Sent: September 19, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Only an aerobatic pilot will set at zero to fly an airshow. Then set it to field elevation to fly home. ----- Original Message ----- From: harvey.rule@bell.ca To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. I noticed that some pilots set their altimeter to zero at the location their plane is and others will add in the level they are above sea level or what the book sez the airstrip is above sea level.What is the correct way?In my own mind,I always figured it was good to zero at the level you were at and go from there.Thanks for any info you can give on this in advance. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene & Tammy Sent: September 18, 2006 1:36 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Gary, Thank you for making AGL clear. I made an error when I assumed I was making it clear. It's that kind of mistake that can get someone killed. Again, thank you Gene----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. Hello Jeff, One very important note: The 2,500 ft that Gene is talking about in this test have to be above ground level, or ASL if you do the test over the ocean... 3 friends from our club have died from take off stall (in 15 years)... Is the worse thing to happen... all the friends are watching the pilot get killed. Very sad, one has to notify the family... Worse. Also explain to our families and friends that aviation is safe, at every reunion for years Too much work, Lets all fly safe please. Saludos Gary Gower. Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Gene & Tammy wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene & Tammy" Jeff, I'd like to throw my two cents in on the question "what's wrong with a steep climb out?". I come from a back ground of both general avation and two stroke airplanes and I'm familiar with both. I currently own and fly a Piet (N502R) with a Continental A 65 and my plane before it was an Avid with a 75 HP 2 stroke. Plus I've owned and flown a number of others. Loved them all. The problem with a steep climb out on take off is if your engine quites you won't have time to get the nose down into a glide (flying speed) before you return to earth. Not good on airframes or human anatomy. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and it has never stopped amazing me how many Alaskan pilots manage to kill themselves and others with a steep climb out. One friend of mine (and a very experienced pilot) took off from his home field in his Super Cub with his small son and his father-in-law on board. His wife and mother-in-law were watching from their living room window. Steep climb out, engine died and so did all three on board (with wife and mother-in-law still watching.). That next winter another pilot that we had both known was killed doing the same thing from a frozen lake. He had put his cub into a steep takeoff climb, showing off to his friends on the ground. He died because he had neglected to turn on his fuel switch and in a steep climbout he just didn't have the speed or altitude to keep from stalling out. Try this. Go up to about 2500 or higher, put your plane into a steep climb just above stall speed, note your altitude and turn the engine off. Once you have your plane back under control and your flying again note your altitude and restart your engine. It'll make a believer out of you. The way I look at it, is that I do enough dumb things while flying that I don't need to do the dumb things that I know will get me killed. Gene riginal Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" To: Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright > > If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep > climb-out? > > > > At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, wrote: >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: >> >>Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >>doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >>and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >>thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >>flight. > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu > ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:31 PM PST US From: "Mark Smith" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight..First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mark Smith" <> FAR 91.121 states, in part, that the altimeter is set to "...the elevation of the departure airport or an appropriate altimeter setting available before departure..." For at least the following three reasons this is the proper procedure: 1) The altimeter references your location in the third dimension of space. In a radio-equipped environment, reported altitude provides a better chance of separation between aircraft. If I report that I am over the airport at 3,500 feet, I mean above sea level, as reported by reading my altimeter, set to the current altimeter setting or field elevation before departure. 2) Elevation figures on sectional charts provide an MSL figure in bold type, which is close to what a pilot will observe with a properly set altimeter. The smaller numeral is the above ground level heighth of the obstruction. Remember, the top number is where you're going to hit it, and the bottom number is how far you're going to fall. 3) Consider what you will do if, after you depart the airport with the altimeter zeroed, the airport is closed behind you and you cannot legally (or safely) return to it. Your altimeter now reports a garbage in-garbage out altitude as you divert to your alternate field. The elevation difference between my home field and the closest alternate is nearly 300 feet. And there are unlighted towers in between them. Sorry for the long and pedantic first post. But as Gary said a day or two ago, we need to be safe out there. And I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who has lost a friend when he flew into a tower in the scud with possibly a mis-set altimeter. Thanks for making me dust off my FAR-AIM! Mark Smith Ground Instructor and List-Lurker