Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Fri 09/22/06


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:09 AM - Fuse construction (Dan Loegering)
     2. 06:30 AM - Re: Fuse construction (Lou Wither)
     3. 06:58 AM - Re: Fuse construction (Roman Bukolt)
     4. 07:07 AM - Re: First flight.. (Frank Metcalfe)
     5. 08:36 AM - Re: Fuse construction (Dick Navratil)
     6. 11:48 AM - FW: Fuse construction (Bill Church)
     7. 12:05 PM - Re: Fuse construction ()
     8. 01:17 PM - Re: Fuse construction (Gordon Bowen)
     9. 05:04 PM - Re: Fuse construction (Don Emch)
    10. 06:38 PM - Re: Fuse construction (gcardinal)
    11. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: Fuse construction (Rick Holland)
    12. 07:24 PM - Re: Fuse construction (Gordon Bowen)
    13. 08:25 PM - Re: FW: Fuse construction (Rcaprd@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:09:53 AM PST US
    Subject: Fuse construction
    From: "Dan Loegering" <danl@odayequipment.com>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dan Loegering" <danl@odayequipment.com> Since it has been rather quiet out here lately, I thought I'd post a building question to see what kind of tips everyone has. We should have wood for the fuselages arriving within a week or two and will start construction on fuse sides shortly after that. The question is... Were there any points during building the fuselage that you were stumped at, or that were not entirely clear - and if so, what did you do to resolve the problem you encountered. A short history - There are currently two Piet's being constructed locally, with a third to start as soon as the wood shows up. The first two are progressing nicely with all wing ribs complete, and all tail surfaces complete. Both will be powered by A65-8 engines. The third will begin rib construction and he hasn't decided on engine choice yet. Of the two currently under construction, we are planning on the long fuselage version - one at stock 24" width, and one either 26" or 28". Both will have the "Cub" style gear. So, relive your building days! What did you enjoy, what did you find challenging, what did you hate... Of course the reward will come when we are finished, and some day all three of us fly to Brodhead in loose formation! Dan Loegering Fargo, ND


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:30:40 AM PST US
    From: Lou Wither <nav8799h@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Fuse construction
    You might want to ask questions about CG. I built mine with an extened engine mount and moved the wing back 2" as part of the construction and I am still struggling with an aft CG situation. I have a C-85-12 with starter and generator (which I used for additional weight) on the front. Although I am pretty heavy, 230 lbs, I can still use a little more ballast on the engine. Lou Wither N799LJ


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:58:28 AM PST US
    From: "Roman Bukolt" <conceptmodels@tds.net>
    Subject: Re: Fuse construction
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Roman Bukolt" <conceptmodels@tds.net> Cub style gear?? Those must be GN-1's not Pietenpol. The GN-1 is a modified Pietenpol with enough changes to no longer be called a Pietenpol. I believe the cub gear mounting changes the location of the axle compared the Piet. Also the GN-1 has a modified airfoil with a different leading edge. That said, are you building from authentic Pietrenpol plans or the GN-1 plans? About the fuselage, the only challenge I faced was devising a sanding drum set-up to scarf the edges of the mating joint of the two pieces of plywood doublers on the sides of the fuse. I did not have to steam the longerons to pull the tail together. I use the West Epoxy system for all my construction. I used an office stapler to staple the gussets to the ribs and the fuselage rather than the tiny brads. Much quicker and easier. The only other challenge so far was to find an economical metal cutting bandsaw. I finally converted my wood cutting bandsaw to a multispeed using a DC motor with speed control. Roman Bukolt Building a Corvair powered Pietenpol NX88XN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Loegering" <danl@odayequipment.com> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 8:08 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dan Loegering" > <danl@odayequipment.com> > > Since it has been rather quiet out here lately, I thought I'd post a > building question to see what kind of tips everyone has. > > We should have wood for the fuselages arriving within a week or two and > will start construction on fuse sides shortly after that. The question > is... Were there any points during building the fuselage that you were > stumped at, or that were not entirely clear - and if so, what did you do > to resolve the problem you encountered. > > A short history - There are currently two Piet's being constructed > locally, with a third to start as soon as the wood shows up. The first > two are progressing nicely with all wing ribs complete, and all tail > surfaces complete. Both will be powered by A65-8 engines. The third will > begin rib construction and he hasn't decided on engine choice yet. Of the > two currently under construction, we are planning on the long fuselage > version - one at stock 24" width, and one either 26" or 28". Both will > have the "Cub" style gear. > > So, relive your building days! What did you enjoy, what did you find > challenging, what did you hate... > > Of course the reward will come when we are finished, and some day all > three of us fly to Brodhead in loose formation! > > Dan Loegering > Fargo, ND > > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:07:02 AM PST US
    From: "Frank Metcalfe" <fmetcalf@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: First flight..
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Frank Metcalfe" <fmetcalf@bellsouth.net> Remember !! A Aircraft will stall at any airspeed but allways at the same angle of attack !!! -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 10:45 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu> If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steep climb-out? At 7:17 PM -0400 9/16/06, <harvey.rule@bell.ca> wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca> > >Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still >doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far >and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I >thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next >flight. -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:36:50 AM PST US
    From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
    Subject: Re: Fuse construction
    Hane you installed your battery yet? That can add 25 lb to the firewall. You can also move the wing back 1 more inch, that will also help. Mine is back 4 1/2". I built a short fuse, not knowing at the start what engine to use. After deciding on an A-65 I also added a 4 gal reserve nose tank, a battery to the FW to get CG. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lou Wither To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction You might want to ask questions about CG. I built mine with an extened engine mount and moved the wing back 2" as part of the construction and I am still struggling with an aft CG situation. I have a C-85-12 with starter and generator (which I used for additional weight) on the front. Although I am pretty heavy, 230 lbs, I can still use a little more ballast on the engine. Lou Wither N799LJ


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:48:22 AM PST US
    Subject: Fuse construction
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    > <<20060917_134.JPG>> > > I think the key word here is "style". Cub style gear, not actual Cub > gear. > The 1933/34 improved Pietenpol Air Camper plans show a split axle "Cub > style" landing gear. The GN-1 was designed to use actual Piper Cub > landing gear. So it is possible to have an authentic Pietenpol Air > Camper with Cub style gear. You need to go back to the Flying and > Glider plans to get the straight axle "Jenny style" gear. And that is > authentic Pietenpol too, since it's not actual Jenny gear either. > > Speaking of landing gear, I was at an open house for the Tiger Boys, > up in Guelph, Ontario (Canada) last weekend (got a short ride in a > deHavilland Tiger Moth, piloted by a Hatz builder - that was cool). A > couple of WW1 replicas flew in from nearby Brampton - a Fokker DR-1 > and an S.E.5a. The S.E.5a had interesting landing gear (see photo > attached). It appears to be varnished wood, similar to the Jenny-style > Pietenpol gear, but if you look closely, you'll notice that it's > actually streamlined steel tubing, painted to look like wood. This > same technique could be applied to the Pietenpol Cub STYLE gear, > giving the strength of steel, and the look of wood. > > Bill C. > > > > -----Original Message----- > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Roman Bukolt" > --> <conceptmodels@tds.net> > > Cub style gear?? Those must be GN-1's not Pietenpol. The GN-1 is a > > modified Pietenpol with enough changes to no longer be called a > Pietenpol. > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:05:18 PM PST US
    Subject: Fuse construction
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    When does the plane actually begin to become a gn-1 ?Is it after the first mod or the last one?A Rose by any other name is still a Rose.So it is with the Pietenpol.Mine has gn-1 mods but the plans still say Pietenpol.People who see it say "oh you have a Pietenpol".I don't correct them and say it is a gn-1,that would be rude.I think,you know your absolutely right ,it is a Pietenpol,you get a gummy bear! ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: September 22, 2006 2:48 PM Subject: FW: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction <<20060917_134.JPG>> I think the key word here is "style". Cub style gear, not actual Cub gear. The 1933/34 improved Pietenpol Air Camper plans show a split axle "Cub style" landing gear. The GN-1 was designed to use actual Piper Cub landing gear. So it is possible to have an authentic Pietenpol Air Camper with Cub style gear. You need to go back to the Flying and Glider plans to get the straight axle "Jenny style" gear. And that is authentic Pietenpol too, since it's not actual Jenny gear either. Speaking of landing gear, I was at an open house for the Tiger Boys, up in Guelph, Ontario (Canada) last weekend (got a short ride in a deHavilland Tiger Moth, piloted by a Hatz builder - that was cool). A couple of WW1 replicas flew in from nearby Brampton - a Fokker DR-1 and an S.E.5a. The S.E.5a had interesting landing gear (see photo attached). It appears to be varnished wood, similar to the Jenny-style Pietenpol gear, but if you look closely, you'll notice that it's actually streamlined steel tubing, painted to look like wood. This same technique could be applied to the Pietenpol Cub STYLE gear, giving the strength of steel, and the look of wood. Bill C. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Roman Bukolt" --> <conceptmodels@tds.net> Cub style gear?? Those must be GN-1's not Pietenpol. The GN-1 is a modified Pietenpol with enough changes to no longer be called a Pietenpol.


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:17:25 PM PST US
    From: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
    Subject: Re: Fuse construction
    FW: Pietenpol-List: Fuse constructionI don't think anyone actually builds the exact plane that Pietenpol designed, too many modern materials available and necessary. Afterall who'd want to use a tractor mag when there are better options, or grade 3 bolts. Same goes for the original Rutan designs for the Varieze and Longeze, every builder adds or subtracts their own mods. That's why it's called experimental. But we still have the purist out there that insist it ain't a Piete unless it is build just like Bernard did, fer git abouut it dreamers. N-1003B's 4130 fuselage, 0-235Lycosauros engine and Aeronca wings, flies just fine thanks. Got $5 bucks that says my "Piete" can beat anyone out there's Piete in time to climb to 3000' agl, even the purist, how about Lakeland in Apr07. Better materials make better planes, just like the Papa John's Pizza commercial. Think Bernard would appreciate the improvements and still be proud to stick his name on the design. Gordon Bowen ----- Original Message ----- From: harvey.rule@bell.ca To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:04 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction When does the plane actually begin to become a gn-1 ?Is it after the first mod or the last one?A Rose by any other name is still a Rose.So it is with the Pietenpol.Mine has gn-1 mods but the plans still say Pietenpol.People who see it say "oh you have a Pietenpol".I don't correct them and say it is a gn-1,that would be rude.I think,you know your absolutely right ,it is a Pietenpol,you get a gummy bear! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: September 22, 2006 2:48 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: FW: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction <<20060917_134.JPG>> I think the key word here is "style". Cub style gear, not actual Cub gear. The 1933/34 improved Pietenpol Air Camper plans show a split axle "Cub style" landing gear. The GN-1 was designed to use actual Piper Cub landing gear. So it is possible to have an authentic Pietenpol Air Camper with Cub style gear. You need to go back to the Flying and Glider plans to get the straight axle "Jenny style" gear. And that is authentic Pietenpol too, since it's not actual Jenny gear either. Speaking of landing gear, I was at an open house for the Tiger Boys, up in Guelph, Ontario (Canada) last weekend (got a short ride in a deHavilland Tiger Moth, piloted by a Hatz builder - that was cool). A couple of WW1 replicas flew in from nearby Brampton - a Fokker DR-1 and an S.E.5a. The S.E.5a had interesting landing gear (see photo attached). It appears to be varnished wood, similar to the Jenny-style Pietenpol gear, but if you look closely, you'll notice that it's actually streamlined steel tubing, painted to look like wood. This same technique could be applied to the Pietenpol Cub STYLE gear, giving the strength of steel, and the look of wood. Bill C. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Roman Bukolt" --> <conceptmodels@tds.net> Cub style gear?? Those must be GN-1's not Pietenpol. The GN-1 is a modified Pietenpol with enough changes to no longer be called a Pietenpol.


    Message 9


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    Time: 05:04:39 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuse construction
    From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com> Hello Dan, In thinking back, I believe the fuselage was fairly straight forward. There may be some searching for measurements in other places on the plans. Once you build up the sides it would probably be a good idea to build a jig to bring the sides together, upside down since the top longeron is flat. I would start from the front and work back to the tail in installing the cross-braces. Squareness is obviously important. I wouldn't make any metal fittings until the woodwork is finished. Seem to get a better fit if you build them to your specific fuselage. I'd leave the firewall off until all the fittings and controls were built, gets a little tight in there. I made the front seat framework permanent but made the plywood seat removeable to service the rudder bar. I routed the elevator cables through pulleys where they go under the seat. Helps for a little smoother movement. It's a good idea to beef up the instrument panels with laminated wood bows glued to the plywood. Adds a lot of strength for a very small weight penalty. Really, really resist the urge to add much of anything. The fuselage is quite strong if built with quality wood and good tight joints. I've found that out with some not so great landings! Try not to add much to the panel, you won't use it anyway. The view outside is much better than looking at the panel. If you build it like the plans and expect a 1930's airplane you won't regret it. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=63306#63306


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:38:42 PM PST US
    From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuse construction
    FW: Pietenpol-List: Fuse constructionGordon, Greg Bacon just might take you up on this bet when he gets Mountain Piet back in the air....... Greg C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gordon Bowen To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction N-1003B's 4130 fuselage, 0-235Lycosauros engine and Aeronca wings, flies just fine thanks. Got $5 bucks that says my "Piete" can beat anyone out there's Piete in time to climb to 3000' agl,


    Message 11


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    Time: 06:47:41 PM PST US
    From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuse construction
    Dan I have almost completed a long fuselage with a two inch increased cockpit width. One thing that really helped me was building a mock cockpit out of scrap wood as Bengelis recommends. I built it to the plans (held together with deck screws initially) and then sat in it and asked myself if I really needs more cockpit width (I did) and if it may be a little more comfortable if the seat back was leaned back a bit (leaned mine two inches). Also added an inch to the height of the instrument panels and a couple inches to the height of the rear turtle deck. When it comes time to add your landing gear you will want to consider deck angle and if adding brakes and tailwheel possibly moving the main gear forward a bit. You will find reams of info on these subjects in a archives. My deck angle ended up at 12 degrees and I moved the mains forward three inches, however since I have never flown this thing I can't recommend changing anything. Rick Holland On 9/22/06, Don Emch <EmchAir@aol.com> wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com> > > Hello Dan, > In thinking back, I believe the fuselage was fairly straight > forward. There may be some searching for measurements in other places on > the plans. Once you build up the sides it would probably be a good idea to > build a jig to bring the sides together, upside down since the top longeron > is flat. I would start from the front and work back to the tail in > installing the cross-braces. Squareness is obviously important. I wouldn't > make any metal fittings until the woodwork is finished. Seem to get a > better fit if you build them to your specific fuselage. I'd leave the > firewall off until all the fittings and controls were built, gets a little > tight in there. I made the front seat framework permanent but made the > plywood seat removeable to service the rudder bar. I routed the elevator > cables through pulleys where they go under the seat. Helps for a little > smoother movement. It's a good idea to beef up the instrument panels with > laminated wood bows glued to the plywood. Adds! > a lot of strength for a very small weight penalty. Really, really > resist the urge to add much of anything. The fuselage is quite strong if > built with quality wood and good tight joints. I've found that out with > some not so great landings! Try not to add much to the panel, you won't use > it anyway. The view outside is much better than looking at the panel. If > you build it like the plans and expect a 1930's airplane you won't regret > it. > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=63306#63306 > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:24:17 PM PST US
    From: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
    Subject: Re: Fuse construction
    FW: Pietenpol-List: Fuse constructionGREAT!!!!!! If we can find an honest man, then they can hold the bet money, five bucks is five bucks, it could be a temptation. Lakeland Apr07, I'll hook the turbocharger back up, take on the RV guys, get some respect for Piete Aficionados. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction Gordon, Greg Bacon just might take you up on this bet when he gets Mountain Piet back in the air....... Greg C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gordon Bowen To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse construction N-1003B's 4130 fuselage, 0-235Lycosauros engine and Aeronca wings, flies just fine thanks. Got $5 bucks that says my "Piete" can beat anyone out there's Piete in time to climb to 3000' agl,


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:25:39 PM PST US
    From: Rcaprd@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Fuse construction
    In a message dated 9/22/2006 1:56:05 PM Central Standard Time, eng@canadianrogers.com writes: I think the key word here is "style". Cub style gear, not actual Cub gear. The 1933/34 improved Pietenpol Air Camper plans show a split axle "Cub style" landing gear. The J3 Cub, actually uses a 'Pietenpol Split Axle Landing Gear'. Bernard Pietenpol designed that gear out of some old gas pipe, long before any J3 Cub's came along. I have the 'Pietenpol Split Axle Style Gear', and changed out the bunji's for springs, several years ago. If I were to do it again, I would make the front cross piece of steel between the landing gear lugs / lift strut lugs, out of 4130, and maybe a little thicker than the 16 Ga. (.059") steel that it calls out on Drawing No. 3. As someone else pointed out, the steel parts should be built AFTER the wood fuselage is complete. I've had that cross piece bend down away from the belly, several times. A hard landing applies a lot of negative G's to the lift strut, as well as when the landing gear bottoms out, pushes that cross piece into a bow away from the belly. That energy has to be absorbed somewhere, and that cross piece is the place. I've seen this on several other Pietenpols, too. The problem seems to be isolated to the front one. I now have three #10 bolts down through the ash cross piece and this steel cross brace, and just this evening, I see where it has bent down a little bit between two of these bolts. I must have logged well over 500 landings in my plane, and I obviously still bounce one in once in a while !! This evening, I was exploring the slow flight characteristics again (at about 2000' AGL), power setting on the trusty ol' A65 at about 1500 rpm, and I got the ASI to indicate 30 mph for an extended time, and she just slowly mushed forward, losing altitude just at a low rate. I love flying this plane, and she never ceases to amaze me !! Chuck G. NX770CG Smokin' to Bartlesville in the morning !!




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