Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:10 AM - Re: Torch Question (Barry Davis)
2. 08:19 AM - ie: Torch question (HelsperSew@aol.com)
3. 09:48 AM - Re: Torch Question (Jim Ash)
4. 10:06 AM - Re: ie: Torch question (Jim Ash)
5. 10:50 AM - IPA (Isablcorky@aol.com)
6. 11:22 AM - Re: ie: Torch question (Dave Abramson)
7. 12:45 PM - Re: ie: Torch question (Gordon Bowen)
8. 03:29 PM - Re: ie: Torch question (Jim Ash)
9. 03:31 PM - Re: ie: Torch question (Rcaprd@aol.com)
10. 03:53 PM - Re: ie: Torch question (Jim Ash)
11. 04:45 PM - Re: ie: Torch question (Gordon Bowen)
12. 06:45 PM - Re: ie: Torch question (HelsperSew@aol.com)
13. 09:20 PM - Re: ie: Torch question (Gordon Bowen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Torch Question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com>
I have a Harris Aviation Torch with tiny flexible hoses and like it very
much. A friend of mine has the Henrob and swears by it.
The main thing is to practice. George Baing (who teaches SnF and Osk) said
that if you practice for 30 hours, you will be as good as anyone with a
torch. He is right.
Just go by your mega-builders supply and buy a few fire bricks for about $1
each and place them on your workbench and you are ready to go. I glued 8 of
them to a piece of 1/2" plywood and keep it out of the way under the
workbench so when I need it, I just pull it out and weld away.
In my shop, I never go to the house right after welding, but hang around
about 10 minutes after the torch is out just to watch for hot sparks. Fire
and wooden airplanes sure don't mix.
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torch Question
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas"
> <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
>
> I'm shopping for more tools, this time torches. Anybody have experience
> with this setup? They look light and ergonomic.
>
> http://www.cut-like-plasma.com/
>
> --------
> Glenn Thomas
> N?????
> http://www.flyingwood.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=63546#63546
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | ie: Torch question |
Hi Everyone,
I thought I would put my 2 cents in about torches. If you can afford it a
TIG set-up is wonderful. For those unfamiliar, TIG is Tungston Inert Gas,
which amounts to an electric arc welder with Argon flowing around the weld at
all times to keep out any oxygen. It is very fast and easy once you learn how,
and if you have it available you will never go back to gas welding. The
results are fantastic and fast, as you do not have to pre-heat. I also used
mine to weld my aluminum gas tank. This took a little more practice but I
finally got it. Compared to gas welding, the ongoing cost might even be cheaper,
as you have to buy filler rod and only one gas instead of two. I attended
one of the weekend SportAir TIG Welding workshops offered by EAA down in the
Atlanta area. This was very helpful and I would recommend it highly.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Torch Question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
George's name is spelled Biang.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Davis <bed@mindspring.com>
>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 11:09 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torch Question
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com>
>
>I have a Harris Aviation Torch with tiny flexible hoses and like it very
>much. A friend of mine has the Henrob and swears by it.
>The main thing is to practice. George Baing (who teaches SnF and Osk) said
>that if you practice for 30 hours, you will be as good as anyone with a
>torch. He is right.
>Just go by your mega-builders supply and buy a few fire bricks for about $1
>each and place them on your workbench and you are ready to go. I glued 8 of
>them to a piece of 1/2" plywood and keep it out of the way under the
>workbench so when I need it, I just pull it out and weld away.
>In my shop, I never go to the house right after welding, but hang around
>about 10 minutes after the torch is out just to watch for hot sparks. Fire
>and wooden airplanes sure don't mix.
>Barry
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:30 AM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torch Question
>
>
>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Glenn Thomas"
>> <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
>>
>> I'm shopping for more tools, this time torches. Anybody have experience
>> with this setup? They look light and ergonomic.
>>
>> http://www.cut-like-plasma.com/
>>
>> --------
>> Glenn Thomas
>> N?????
>> http://www.flyingwood.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=63546#63546
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: ie: Torch question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
I generall agree with Dan's statement, with one caveat. TIG can create a lot of
heat in a very small space, blanketed under the inert shield gas. With the cold
gas blanket, this can create a really large temperature gradient in a small
area. When the weld cools and contracts, this can create a lot of stress in the
area around the weld. It's not uncommon to see cracks, not in the welds themselves,
but just outside the heat-effected zone (HAZ). This is more of an issue
when welding metals (I'm thinking cluster welds in 4130 tubing) that don't
transfer heat well. Aluminum melts at a much lower temperature and it moves heat
well enough I don't think it suffers from this problem. Some people go back
over their TIG-welded 4130 clusters with a torch and anneal the area of the HAZ
to relieve the stresses. Gas-welded clusters don't require the annealing step,
because they don't concentrate the heat as much and the temperature gradient
is more gradual. Come time for me to do cluster welds, I'll probably opt for
the torch, even if I have TIG available. TIG is a truly wonderful thing, but
it's not a panacea.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 11:18 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>
>Hi Everyone,
>
>I thought I would put my 2 cents in about torches. If you can afford it a
>TIG set-up is wonderful. For those unfamiliar, TIG is Tungston Inert Gas,
>which amounts to an electric arc welder with Argon flowing around the weld at
>all times to keep out any oxygen. It is very fast and easy once you learn how,
>and if you have it available you will never go back to gas welding. The
>results are fantastic and fast, as you do not have to pre-heat. I also used
>mine to weld my aluminum gas tank. This took a little more practice but I
>finally got it. Compared to gas welding, the ongoing cost might even be cheaper,
>as you have to buy filler rod and only one gas instead of two. I attended
>one of the weekend SportAir TIG Welding workshops offered by EAA down in the
>Atlanta area. This was very helpful and I would recommend it highly.
>
>Dan Helsper
>Poplar Grove, IL.
>
Message 5
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Pieters,
Yesterday I received a magazine from the International Pietenpol
Association. 16 pages of Piet stuff. I joined this group 6 or 7 years ago but
haven't
received anything for the last few years. Thought maybe some of you might be
interested in this organization.
International Pietenpol Association
Box 127
Blakesburg, Iowa 52536
Phone 641-938-2773 Fax 641-938-2093
E-mail: _antiqueairfield@sirisonline.com_
(mailto:antiqueairfield@sirisonline.com)
Dues are $18.00 for three 16 page publications. Dates not set but 48 pages
of Piet stuff guaranteed
Spend at your own risk
Corky in beautiful 60 degree Louisiana. How bout dem Saints?
Do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | ie: Torch question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dave Abramson" <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
Hello! From what I've read and heard from other aircraft builders.... Like
on a steel tube Fuselage or landing gear...... you can "tack" weld it
together with Tig, but should always gas weld it.
For brackets and such the "Tig" is fine.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Ash
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
I generall agree with Dan's statement, with one caveat. TIG can create a lot
of heat in a very small space, blanketed under the inert shield gas. With
the cold gas blanket, this can create a really large temperature gradient in
a small area. When the weld cools and contracts, this can create a lot of
stress in the area around the weld. It's not uncommon to see cracks, not in
the welds themselves, but just outside the heat-effected zone (HAZ). This is
more of an issue when welding metals (I'm thinking cluster welds in 4130
tubing) that don't transfer heat well. Aluminum melts at a much lower
temperature and it moves heat well enough I don't think it suffers from this
problem. Some people go back over their TIG-welded 4130 clusters with a
torch and anneal the area of the HAZ to relieve the stresses. Gas-welded
clusters don't require the annealing step, because they don't concentrate
the heat as much and the temperature gradient is more gradual. Come time for
me to do cluster w!
elds, I'll probably opt for the torch, even if I have TIG available. TIG is
a truly wonderful thing, but it's not a panacea.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 11:18 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>
>Hi Everyone,
>
>I thought I would put my 2 cents in about torches. If you can afford it a
>TIG set-up is wonderful. For those unfamiliar, TIG is Tungston Inert Gas,
>which amounts to an electric arc welder with Argon flowing around the weld
at
>all times to keep out any oxygen. It is very fast and easy once you learn
how,
>and if you have it available you will never go back to gas welding. The
>results are fantastic and fast, as you do not have to pre-heat. I also
used
>mine to weld my aluminum gas tank. This took a little more practice but I
>finally got it. Compared to gas welding, the ongoing cost might even be
cheaper,
>as you have to buy filler rod and only one gas instead of two. I attended
>one of the weekend SportAir TIG Welding workshops offered by EAA down in
the
>Atlanta area. This was very helpful and I would recommend it highly.
>
>Dan Helsper
>Poplar Grove, IL.
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ie: Torch question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
Dave,
Not sure you still have to exclusively gas weld. If you use argon blanket
of inert gas around the wire feed weld you avoid "burning" out the carbon in
the 4130 steel, thus making it brittle. You should go back at all weld
junctions and use a non-oxidizing flame (more gas than oxygen) heating up
the weld to relieve any stresses, "normalizing the weld". But fact is, on
many 4130 parts, it's actually easier to gas weld due to the complex nature
of the rounded shapes. So, on my Piete, I tacked up the part using wirefeed
and argon blanket, then test fitted to insure the parts match up, then gas
welded (non-oxidizing flame).
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Abramson" <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dave Abramson"
> <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
>
> Hello! From what I've read and heard from other aircraft builders....
> Like
> on a steel tube Fuselage or landing gear...... you can "tack" weld it
> together with Tig, but should always gas weld it.
>
> For brackets and such the "Tig" is fine.
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Ash
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:06 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
> I generall agree with Dan's statement, with one caveat. TIG can create a
> lot
> of heat in a very small space, blanketed under the inert shield gas. With
> the cold gas blanket, this can create a really large temperature gradient
> in
> a small area. When the weld cools and contracts, this can create a lot of
> stress in the area around the weld. It's not uncommon to see cracks, not
> in
> the welds themselves, but just outside the heat-effected zone (HAZ). This
> is
> more of an issue when welding metals (I'm thinking cluster welds in 4130
> tubing) that don't transfer heat well. Aluminum melts at a much lower
> temperature and it moves heat well enough I don't think it suffers from
> this
> problem. Some people go back over their TIG-welded 4130 clusters with a
> torch and anneal the area of the HAZ to relieve the stresses. Gas-welded
> clusters don't require the annealing step, because they don't concentrate
> the heat as much and the temperature gradient is more gradual. Come time
> for
> me to do cluster w!
> elds, I'll probably opt for the torch, even if I have TIG available. TIG
> is
> a truly wonderful thing, but it's not a panacea.
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 11:18 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>>
>>Hi Everyone,
>>
>>I thought I would put my 2 cents in about torches. If you can afford it
>>a
>>TIG set-up is wonderful. For those unfamiliar, TIG is Tungston Inert
>>Gas,
>>which amounts to an electric arc welder with Argon flowing around the weld
> at
>>all times to keep out any oxygen. It is very fast and easy once you
>>learn
> how,
>>and if you have it available you will never go back to gas welding. The
>>results are fantastic and fast, as you do not have to pre-heat. I also
> used
>>mine to weld my aluminum gas tank. This took a little more practice but
>>I
>>finally got it. Compared to gas welding, the ongoing cost might even be
> cheaper,
>>as you have to buy filler rod and only one gas instead of two. I
>>attended
>>one of the weekend SportAir TIG Welding workshops offered by EAA down in
> the
>>Atlanta area. This was very helpful and I would recommend it highly.
>>
>>Dan Helsper
>>Poplar Grove, IL.
>>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: ie: Torch question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Wire feed (i.e. MIG, i.e GMAW) is not the same as TIG (i.e. GTAW). The filler material
in MIG welding is supplied from a spool through the same gun as your heat
source, so in theory, you can weld one-handed. TIG requires you to supply
filler material from a rod held in your other hand, like gas. I believe wire welding
4130 tubing is discouraged, but I wouldn't swear to it. If you're just
tacking things together, then it probably doesn't matter how you're doing it.
If you're considering using MIG on your airplane, you might want to consult with
your local tech counsillor and first see what they have to say before you commit
too much time or money to the idea.
MIG certainly has its uses; it's cool because you can run a continuous bead almost
forever and you don't have to stop to grab another filler rod. But setting
up the machine can be a bit tricky, and the relative strength of a MIG weld is
generally not as good as a stick or TIG weld.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gordon Bowen <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 3:44 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
>
>Dave,
>Not sure you still have to exclusively gas weld. If you use argon blanket
>of inert gas around the wire feed weld you avoid "burning" out the carbon in
>the 4130 steel, thus making it brittle. You should go back at all weld
>junctions and use a non-oxidizing flame (more gas than oxygen) heating up
>the weld to relieve any stresses, "normalizing the weld". But fact is, on
>many 4130 parts, it's actually easier to gas weld due to the complex nature
>of the rounded shapes. So, on my Piete, I tacked up the part using wirefeed
>and argon blanket, then test fitted to insure the parts match up, then gas
>welded (non-oxidizing flame).
>Gordon
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dave Abramson" <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:21 AM
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>
>
>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dave Abramson"
>> <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
>>
>> Hello! From what I've read and heard from other aircraft builders....
>> Like
>> on a steel tube Fuselage or landing gear...... you can "tack" weld it
>> together with Tig, but should always gas weld it.
>>
>> For brackets and such the "Tig" is fine.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Ash
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:06 AM
>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>>
>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>>
>> I generall agree with Dan's statement, with one caveat. TIG can create a
>> lot
>> of heat in a very small space, blanketed under the inert shield gas. With
>> the cold gas blanket, this can create a really large temperature gradient
>> in
>> a small area. When the weld cools and contracts, this can create a lot of
>> stress in the area around the weld. It's not uncommon to see cracks, not
>> in
>> the welds themselves, but just outside the heat-effected zone (HAZ). This
>> is
>> more of an issue when welding metals (I'm thinking cluster welds in 4130
>> tubing) that don't transfer heat well. Aluminum melts at a much lower
>> temperature and it moves heat well enough I don't think it suffers from
>> this
>> problem. Some people go back over their TIG-welded 4130 clusters with a
>> torch and anneal the area of the HAZ to relieve the stresses. Gas-welded
>> clusters don't require the annealing step, because they don't concentrate
>> the heat as much and the temperature gradient is more gradual. Come time
>> for
>> me to do cluster w!
>> elds, I'll probably opt for the torch, even if I have TIG available. TIG
>> is
>> a truly wonderful thing, but it's not a panacea.
>>
>> Jim Ash
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>>>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 11:18 AM
>>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>>>
>>>Hi Everyone,
>>>
>>>I thought I would put my 2 cents in about torches. If you can afford it
>>>a
>>>TIG set-up is wonderful. For those unfamiliar, TIG is Tungston Inert
>>>Gas,
>>>which amounts to an electric arc welder with Argon flowing around the weld
>> at
>>>all times to keep out any oxygen. It is very fast and easy once you
>>>learn
>> how,
>>>and if you have it available you will never go back to gas welding. The
>>>results are fantastic and fast, as you do not have to pre-heat. I also
>> used
>>>mine to weld my aluminum gas tank. This took a little more practice but
>>>I
>>>finally got it. Compared to gas welding, the ongoing cost might even be
>> cheaper,
>>>as you have to buy filler rod and only one gas instead of two. I
>>>attended
>>>one of the weekend SportAir TIG Welding workshops offered by EAA down in
>> the
>>>Atlanta area. This was very helpful and I would recommend it highly.
>>>
>>>Dan Helsper
>>>Poplar Grove, IL.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: ie: Torch question |
In a message dated 9/26/2006 2:48:23 PM Central Standard Time,
gbowen@ptialaska.net writes:
I tacked up the part using wirefeed
and argon blanket, then test fitted to insure the parts match up, then gas
welded (non-oxidizing flame).
That's how I did my Tailwind fuselage. I've seen firsthand, how the heat
affected zone of TIG welds crack.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 10
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| Subject: | ie: Torch question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
As a minor aside, I don't like perpetuating a bunch of voodoo-type myths when these
things come up. MIG and TIG are both relatively new phenomenon and are truly
wonderful within the scope of their functions. One of the reasons old airplanes
were originally gas welded was because that was what they had to work with.
For certain operations TIG is better in my opinion (just not for 4130 clusters).
Sometimes the old-timers insist on the old ways and poo-poo the new stuff.
But I'll consider both the old ways and the new ones, then choose best-of-breed,
because I'm interested in using the best tools and methods I have at my
disposal. Likewise, when I offer my opinions on these things, I've tried to think
them out first, instead of carrying on some mysterious tradition or habit
whose reasoning has been long-since forgotten.
Is anybody covering their bird with Irish linen?
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Abramson <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 2:21 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dave Abramson" <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
>
>Hello! From what I've read and heard from other aircraft builders.... Like
>on a steel tube Fuselage or landing gear...... you can "tack" weld it
>together with Tig, but should always gas weld it.
>
>For brackets and such the "Tig" is fine.
>
>Dave
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Ash
>Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:06 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
>I generall agree with Dan's statement, with one caveat. TIG can create a lot
>of heat in a very small space, blanketed under the inert shield gas. With
>the cold gas blanket, this can create a really large temperature gradient in
>a small area. When the weld cools and contracts, this can create a lot of
>stress in the area around the weld. It's not uncommon to see cracks, not in
>the welds themselves, but just outside the heat-effected zone (HAZ). This is
>more of an issue when welding metals (I'm thinking cluster welds in 4130
>tubing) that don't transfer heat well. Aluminum melts at a much lower
>temperature and it moves heat well enough I don't think it suffers from this
>problem. Some people go back over their TIG-welded 4130 clusters with a
>torch and anneal the area of the HAZ to relieve the stresses. Gas-welded
>clusters don't require the annealing step, because they don't concentrate
>the heat as much and the temperature gradient is more gradual. Come time for
>me to do cluster w!
> elds, I'll probably opt for the torch, even if I have TIG available. TIG is
>a truly wonderful thing, but it's not a panacea.
>
>Jim Ash
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 11:18 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>>
>>Hi Everyone,
>>
>>I thought I would put my 2 cents in about torches. If you can afford it a
>>TIG set-up is wonderful. For those unfamiliar, TIG is Tungston Inert Gas,
>>which amounts to an electric arc welder with Argon flowing around the weld
>at
>>all times to keep out any oxygen. It is very fast and easy once you learn
>how,
>>and if you have it available you will never go back to gas welding. The
>>results are fantastic and fast, as you do not have to pre-heat. I also
>used
>>mine to weld my aluminum gas tank. This took a little more practice but I
>>finally got it. Compared to gas welding, the ongoing cost might even be
>cheaper,
>>as you have to buy filler rod and only one gas instead of two. I attended
>>one of the weekend SportAir TIG Welding workshops offered by EAA down in
>the
>>Atlanta area. This was very helpful and I would recommend it highly.
>>
>>Dan Helsper
>>Poplar Grove, IL.
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: ie: Torch question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
Great input Jim,
Back when Oshcash was more for the homebuilders needs, the workshop tents
dedicated to welding was an excellent place to learn both old and new
techniques.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
> As a minor aside, I don't like perpetuating a bunch of voodoo-type myths
> when these things come up. MIG and TIG are both relatively new phenomenon
> and are truly wonderful within the scope of their functions. One of the
> reasons old airplanes were originally gas welded was because that was what
> they had to work with. For certain operations TIG is better in my opinion
> (just not for 4130 clusters). Sometimes the old-timers insist on the old
> ways and poo-poo the new stuff. But I'll consider both the old ways and
> the new ones, then choose best-of-breed, because I'm interested in using
> the best tools and methods I have at my disposal. Likewise, when I offer
> my opinions on these things, I've tried to think them out first, instead
> of carrying on some mysterious tradition or habit whose reasoning has been
> long-since forgotten.
>
> Is anybody covering their bird with Irish linen?
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Dave Abramson <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
>>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 2:21 PM
>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>>
>>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dave Abramson"
>><davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
>>
>>Hello! From what I've read and heard from other aircraft builders....
>>Like
>>on a steel tube Fuselage or landing gear...... you can "tack" weld it
>>together with Tig, but should always gas weld it.
>>
>>For brackets and such the "Tig" is fine.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Ash
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:06 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>>
>>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>>
>>I generall agree with Dan's statement, with one caveat. TIG can create a
>>lot
>>of heat in a very small space, blanketed under the inert shield gas. With
>>the cold gas blanket, this can create a really large temperature gradient
>>in
>>a small area. When the weld cools and contracts, this can create a lot of
>>stress in the area around the weld. It's not uncommon to see cracks, not
>>in
>>the welds themselves, but just outside the heat-effected zone (HAZ). This
>>is
>>more of an issue when welding metals (I'm thinking cluster welds in 4130
>>tubing) that don't transfer heat well. Aluminum melts at a much lower
>>temperature and it moves heat well enough I don't think it suffers from
>>this
>>problem. Some people go back over their TIG-welded 4130 clusters with a
>>torch and anneal the area of the HAZ to relieve the stresses. Gas-welded
>>clusters don't require the annealing step, because they don't concentrate
>>the heat as much and the temperature gradient is more gradual. Come time
>>for
>>me to do cluster w!
>> elds, I'll probably opt for the torch, even if I have TIG available. TIG
>> is
>>a truly wonderful thing, but it's not a panacea.
>>
>>Jim Ash
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>>>Sent: Sep 26, 2006 11:18 AM
>>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
>>>
>>>Hi Everyone,
>>>
>>>I thought I would put my 2 cents in about torches. If you can afford it
>>>a
>>>TIG set-up is wonderful. For those unfamiliar, TIG is Tungston Inert
>>>Gas,
>>>which amounts to an electric arc welder with Argon flowing around the
>>>weld
>>at
>>>all times to keep out any oxygen. It is very fast and easy once you
>>>learn
>>how,
>>>and if you have it available you will never go back to gas welding. The
>>>results are fantastic and fast, as you do not have to pre-heat. I also
>>used
>>>mine to weld my aluminum gas tank. This took a little more practice but
>>>I
>>>finally got it. Compared to gas welding, the ongoing cost might even be
>>cheaper,
>>>as you have to buy filler rod and only one gas instead of two. I
>>>attended
>>>one of the weekend SportAir TIG Welding workshops offered by EAA down in
>>the
>>>Atlanta area. This was very helpful and I would recommend it highly.
>>>
>>>Dan Helsper
>>>Poplar Grove, IL.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: ie: Torch question |
This is a direct quote from a "frequently asked questions" sheet published
by Lincoln Electric on the subject of welding 4130.
Q. Do I need to preheat?
A. Thin wall tubing (<0.120" wall) applications do not typically require
the normal
300F to 400F pre-heat to obtain acceptable results. However, tubing
should be at
room temperature (70F) or above before welding.
Q. Do I need to heat treat (stress relieve) 4130 after welding?
A. Thin wall tubing normally does not require stress relief. For parts
thicker than .120"
stress-relieving is recommended and 1,100F is the optimum temperature
for tubing
applications. An Oxy/Acetylene torch with neutral flame can be used.
It should
be oscillated to avoid hot spots.
Hope this can clarify some of the misinformed opinions. Is there anywhere
on a Piet where it calls for thicker than .120" in a welding application?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: ie: Torch question |
Couple of practical points:
1) 90% of all 4130 tube in all homebuilts, including the Piete, I've
worked with is 0.035 or thinner.
2) Lots of folks do their welding of parts in unheated hangers or
garages, many times much less than 70F steel feed stock. When the steel
is colder, it pops, crackles and leaves lots of little pinholes in the
weld.
3) think, from a experience point of view, you gotta be kinda good as a
welder to make good consistant wirefeed welds. It's easier to tack weld
parts and then gas weld because most homebuilders who do something else
other than weld for a living, need lots and lots of practice.
4) The normalizing of clusters of welded tube takes the unwanted kinks
out of the point of weld, the longerons will buckle slightly every where
there's a thick cluster. If you leave them in, the fuselage wants to
buckle up at these thick clusters, so it can't hurt to normalize even if
not required by the folks at Lincoln.
5) Lastly, if you want a better wirefeed welder, buy a Miller not a
Lincoln. Ck out the weight and size of their individual transformers to
see the diff in quality and ability to not overheat and shutdown during
an extended welding period. I've owned both names and really like the
Miller much better machine, but Lincoln is cheaper to buy.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: HelsperSew@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ie: Torch question
This is a direct quote from a "frequently asked questions" sheet
published by Lincoln Electric on the subject of welding 4130.
Q. Do I need to preheat?
A. Thin wall tubing (<0.120" wall) applications do not typically
require the normal
300F to 400F pre-heat to obtain acceptable results. However,
tubing should be at
room temperature (70F) or above before welding.
Q. Do I need to heat treat (stress relieve) 4130 after welding?
A. Thin wall tubing normally does not require stress relief. For
parts thicker than .120"
stress-relieving is recommended and 1,100F is the optimum
temperature for tubing
applications. An Oxy/Acetylene torch with neutral flame can be
used. It should
be oscillated to avoid hot spots.
Hope this can clarify some of the misinformed opinions. Is there
anywhere on a Piet where it calls for thicker than .120" in a welding
application?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL
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