Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:50 AM - Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level (kmordecai001@comcast.net)
2. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level (Gene & Tammy)
3. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level (Mark Blackwell)
4. 10:29 AM - Re: Flying pictures from today ()
5. 11:45 AM - Flying pictures from today (Oscar Zuniga)
6. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level (Rcaprd@aol.com)
7. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level (bike.mike)
8. 06:43 PM - my 95% GN-1 project is for sale (DJ Vegh)
9. 06:54 PM - Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level (Don Emch)
10. 07:22 PM - Re: my 95% GN-1 project is for sale (Greg Chapman)
11. 10:02 PM - Re: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level (Mark Blackwell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level |
Yep, mine flies the same way, even with a full tank. Stick forces are also very
light as you described.
Dave Mordecai
Panacea, FL
. The position of the flippers is a little bit
> down,
>
> which is how my plane flies in straight level flight. I've seen this on Corky's
>
> plane, too (Oscar has custody of it now). Even when the cowling tank is
> full, my plane flies level with a little bit of down in the flippers. With less
>
> than a pound of pull on the stick to get them to be straight, it pitches the
> nose up quite a bit. I wonder if other fliers can confirm this in their planes
>
> ???
> It's so much fun to see the expression of people's face, and their comments,
> after their first open cockpit flight !!
>
> Chuck G.
> NX770CG
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>Yep, mine flies the same way, even with a full tank. Stick forces are
also very light as you described.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave Mordecai</DIV>
<DIV>Panacea, FL</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>. The position of the flippers is a little bit <BR>> down, <BR>> <BR>>
which is how my plane flies in straight level flight. I've seen this on
Corky's <BR>> <BR>> plane, too (Oscar has custody of it now). Even when
the cowling tank is <BR>> full, my plane flies level with a little bit of down
in the flippers. With less <BR>> <BR>> than a pound of pull on the stick
to get them to be straight, it pitches the <BR>> nose up quite a bit.
I wonder if other fliers can confirm this in their planes <BR>> <BR>> ???
<BR>> It's so much fun to see the expression of people's face, and their
comments, <BR>> after their first open cockpit flight !! <BR>> <BR>>
Chuck G. <BR>> NX770CG <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> </DIV>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level |
Same with N502R.
Gene in Tennessee
----- Original Message -----
From: kmordecai001@comcast.net
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 6:50 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight &
level
Yep, mine flies the same way, even with a full tank. Stick forces are
also very light as you described.
Dave Mordecai
Panacea, FL
. The position of the flippers is a little bit
> down,
>
> which is how my plane flies in straight level flight. I've seen this
on Corky's
>
> plane, too (Oscar has custody of it now). Even when the cowling tank
is
> full, my plane flies level with a little bit of down in the
flippers. With less
>
> than a pound of pull on the stick to get them to be straight, it
pitches the
> nose up quite a bit. I wonder if other fliers can confirm this in
their planes
>
> ???
> It's so much fun to see the expression of people's face, and their
comments,
> after their first open cockpit flight !!
>
> Chuck G.
> NX770CG
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Blackwell <markb1958@verizon.net>
Just curious but what is the CG both as an empty airplane and loaded? I
am assuming you are talking about the elevator when you refer to
flipper. The tail of the airplane actually creates downforce for
control in level flight. With the elevator down creating an upward
force, my logic would make me ask if everything else checks out is the
weight too far back. The drag is going to slow you down, but in a Piet
who cares? If the weight and balance and CG are all within range, I
probably wouldn't worry about it.
kmordecai001@comcast.net wrote:
> Yep, mine flies the same way, even with a full tank. Stick forces are
> also very light as you described.
>
> Dave Mordecai
> Panacea, FL
>
> . The position of the flippers is a little bit
> > down,
> >
> > which is how my plane flies in straight level flight. I've seen this
> on Corky's
> >
> > plane, too (Oscar has custody of it now). Even when the cowling tank is
> > full, my plane flies level with a little bit of down in the
> flippers. With less
> >
> > than a pound of pull on the stick to get them to be straight, it
> pitches the
> > nose up quite a bit. I wonder if other fliers can confirm this in
> their planes
> >
> > ???
> > It's so much fun to see the expression of people's face, and their
> comments,
> > after their first open cockpit flight !!
> >
> > Chuck G.
> > NX770CG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> *
>
>
> *
Message 4
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| Subject: | Flying pictures from today |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
Great pics!I noticed you have enclosed your landing gear.How do you like
the performance of this?I ask because earlier on I enquired and some
guys said it would cause havick in cross winds.Do you find the same?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ruse
Sent: October 7, 2006 11:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying pictures from today
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Ruse"
<steve@wotelectronics.com>
A buddy of mine got a few good air to air pictures today on the way to a
fly-in, thought I'd post a couple as motivation for the builders. What
a
great day for flying, the weather was perfect. I even got to give rides
to
two passengers, their first ride in an open cockpit plane ever. I was
impressed that a Citabria could cruise as slow as a Pietenpol!
http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/2006Oct07KPVJ/PA0700041.JPG
http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/2006Oct07KPVJ/PA0700131.JPG
Steve Ruse
Norman, Oklahoma
--
Message 5
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| Subject: | Flying pictures from today |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Steve writes-
>A buddy of mine got a few good air to air pictures today on the way to
>a fly-in, thought I'd post a couple as motivation for the builders.
My, what tall cabanes you have! (The easier to climb in with, you say?)
And Steve, aren't you located in Oklahoma? What happened to the Sooners
yesterday, eh?
Oscar Zuniga (UT Austin alumnus, BSME '73)
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level |
In a message dated 10/8/2006 8:46:01 AM Central Standard Time,
markb1958@verizon.net writes:
Just curious but what is the CG both as an empty airplane and loaded? I
am assuming you are talking about the elevator when you refer to
flipper. The tail of the airplane actually creates downforce for
control in level flight. With the elevator down creating an upward
force, my logic would make me ask if everything else checks out is the
weight too far back. The drag is going to slow you down, but in a Piet
who cares? If the weight and balance and CG are all within range, I
probably wouldn't worry about it.
Mark,
I was kind of taking a survey of the fliers, to confirm my suspicion, and
see if most planes have this characteristic.
I always call the elevator's the 'Flippers'...as noted in the book by
Wolfgang Langewiesche called 'STICK and RUDDER'. I highly recommend this book
to
everyone. The term 'Elevator' is a poor way to describe what those control
surfaces actually do. It doesn't matter if it is a model airplane, or the
Space Shuttle...The Flippers are the Speed control...Power setting is what makes
the plane go up or down.
During straight level flight, even with the slightly down flippers, there
is still a downward force on the tail...they're just not down far enough yet
to overcome the down force of the horizontal stab. Yes, that does cause some
drag called 'Trim Drag', but like you mentioned - it is of little consequence
in a plane like the Pietenpol.
I set up the weight & balance so that it can NEVER exceed the aft C. G.
limit, with my weight (210 lbs) even when there is Zero fuel onboard. You can
see ALL of my C. of G. calculations on my web site at:
http://nx770cg.com/OperationsManual.html
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level |
Chuck,
You're right in that "elevator" doesn't describe what those surfaces do,
anymore than an "aileron" ails or a "fuselage" fuses. However, language
is about communicating thought from one person to another. Whatever the
term is has to be one that both the speaker and the hearer understand to
mean what is meant.
There are terms of art in every discipline that don't mean in the same
thing outside that discipline. A flipper in a pin ball machine is
vastly different from a flipper in scuba diving, for example. An
elevator in a building is not a control surface that controls its speed.
An elevator on an airplane IS a control surface that controls speed. If
we called everything by its function, a wing would be an "primary
aerodynamic lifting surface", a propellor would be a "rotating motion to
thrust convertor" and so on the inanity goes.
If you use the term "elevator" on this list or in any other
English-speaking aviation community, everyone knows exactly what you
mean. If you use "flipper", we're not sure if we're supposed to listen
for a talking dolphin.
Mike
[snip]
I always call the elevator's the 'Flippers'...as noted in the book
by Wolfgang Langewiesche called 'STICK and RUDDER'. I highly recommend
this book to everyone. The term 'Elevator' is a poor way to describe
what those control surfaces actually do. It doesn't matter if it is a
model airplane, or the Space Shuttle...The Flippers are the Speed
control...Power setting is what makes the plane go up or down.
During straight level flight, even with the slightly down
flippers, there is still a downward force on the tail...they're just not
down far enough yet to overcome the down force of the horizontal stab.
Yes, that does cause some drag called 'Trim Drag', but like you
mentioned - it is of little consequence in a plane like the Pietenpol.
I set up the weight & balance so that it can NEVER exceed the aft
C. G. limit, with my weight (210 lbs) even when there is Zero fuel
onboard. You can see ALL of my C. of G. calculations on my web site
at: http://nx770cg.com/OperationsManual.html
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 8
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| Subject: | my 95% GN-1 project is for sale |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <dj@veghdesign.com>
yes it's true.... It's for sale. about 95% complete.
105hp Corvair (meticulously built)
Grand Rapids engine monitor
fully instrumented except xponder and comm
matco hydraulic brakes
matco tailwheel
complete airframe
all Sitka spruce and Okoume ply
too much other stuff to list
This plane was built with specific attention to detail. I hate to let her
go but after 2 yrs of not being able to work on it I'm beginning to wonder
if I ever will... so many things going on in my life regarding work and I'm
still young enough to build another one later in life. For the time being I
prefer to sell this aircraft to somone who will give it the same
affection/attention I did and finish it off and fly it.
I've got alot of time and $$ wrapped up into this plane but am willing to
take a bit of a loss.
email me at dj (at) veghdesign.com and I can talk numbers.
LOTS and LOTS of pics of this project at
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
DJ
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com>
Hey Chuck,
My flippers are in the same position you describe. I think just about all of the
plans-built Piets have the same characteristic. I think an adjustment in the
leading edge of the stabilizer would make the flippers straight but then the
weight of them "hanging" probably has some effect too. I'm sure Mr. Pietenpol
looked back there on occasion and noticed them slightly low and after building
many airplanes basically the same he must have had good reason to not change
the stabilizer incidence. By the way, "flippers" is pretty good Pietenpol
talk.
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66636#66636
Message 10
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| Subject: | my 95% GN-1 project is for sale |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Greg Chapman" <greg@mousetrax.com>
That is just too hard to believe. While I haven't started a project (or even
decided whether to), yours is the project log I've referenced most often and
which has set my interest in the direction of the Pietenpol. Sorry to hear
you're letting it go.
Greg Chapman
http://www.mousetrax.com
http://www.layer1wireless.com
"Don't start with me or I'll
replace you with a small and
efficient script!"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of DJ Vegh
> Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 8:43 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: my 95% GN-1 project is for sale
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <dj@veghdesign.com>
>
> yes it's true.... It's for sale. about 95% complete.
>
> 105hp Corvair (meticulously built)
> Grand Rapids engine monitor
> fully instrumented except xponder and comm matco hydraulic
> brakes matco tailwheel complete airframe all Sitka spruce and
> Okoume ply too much other stuff to list
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Blackwell <markb1958@verizon.net>
Well almost every control surface on an airplane is a flipper. All of
the main ones move back and forth or flip from side to side. Rudder,
aileron, and elevator all do essential the same things, just for
different purposes. Ailerons often are not "level" at cruise flight.
Rudders aren't either. Maybe he had a reason, but then again maybe the
reason was it was already finished and flying, it caused no harm so he
didn't want to take the time or effort to correct it. Yet when you
start messing with something that could potentially be that critical, I
wouldn't take those changes lightly. Personally I wouldn't have the
knowledge or experience to make them without some outside help.
Getting it where its stable and can be trimmed (assuming you put a trim
system in it) hands off without difficulty is the important part. You
want to be able to enjoy the view without an unusual attitude when you
look back at the dials. grin.
Don Emch wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com>
>
> Hey Chuck,
> My flippers are in the same position you describe. I think just about all of
the plans-built Piets have the same characteristic. I think an adjustment in
the leading edge of the stabilizer would make the flippers straight but then
the weight of them "hanging" probably has some effect too. I'm sure Mr. Pietenpol
looked back there on occasion and noticed them slightly low and after building
many airplanes basically the same he must have had good reason to not change
the stabilizer incidence. By the way, "flippers" is pretty good Pietenpol
talk.
> Don Emch
> NX899DE
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66636#66636
>
>
>
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