---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/26/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:46 AM - Re: Phone number for Jim Corder (Hegy Props) (Isablcorky@aol.com) 2. 06:07 AM - Mag question (Oscar Zuniga) 3. 06:59 AM - Re: Looking for wood (Phillips, Jack) 4. 07:55 AM - Re: Looking for wood (Ben Charvet) 5. 08:18 AM - Re: Looking for wood (TJ Brown) 6. 09:00 AM - Looking for wood (Oscar Zuniga) 7. 09:15 AM - Re: Looking for wood (Jdavis2a@wmconnect.com) 8. 09:48 AM - Re: Looking for wood (shad bell) 9. 10:22 AM - Re: Looking for wood (Phillips, Jack) 10. 02:31 PM - Around Ft. Smith Arkansas (TJ) 11. 06:05 PM - Re: Looking for wood (Clif Dawson) 12. 08:52 PM - Hey buddy, is that a turboprop on your Pietenpol? (Mike Whaley) 13. 11:11 PM - Re: Hey buddy, is that a turboprop on your Pietenpol? (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:37 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Phone number for Jim Corder (Hegy Props) Dave, You can find Jim at; 200 S 6th, Olathe, Co 81425. 970-323-6341. IF you can catch him. He builds beautiful and efficient propellers but it will require time and patience on your part. Nathan ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:16 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mag question --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Chet wrote- >I have a Ford Model A engine with a Slick mag model number 4032 left >hand with a serial number 401006. I need a cross referance list number >for a replacement mag. I couldn't quickly Google up that model number, but Harry Fenton offers this info that you might try: >Unison Industries values feedback and encourages customers to contact >the Slick Customer Service Department to obtain information on the products >that they manufacture. For quick access to product support, contact the >Unison >Industries/Slick Aircraft Products Customer Service Department in Rockford, >Il; >(815) 965-4700, ext. 143; Fax: 815-965-2457; >E-mail:Todd@UnisonIndustries.com. Be sure to tell them it's for a farm tractor ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Live Search! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood From: "Phillips, Jack" Let me add my two cents, and you will almost have a nickel's worth of advice. At the risk of starting another "What wood is best" war, I will say that on a plane like a Pietenpol, 25 lbs makes a very noticeable difference in flight characteristics. If I could easily shed 25 lbs in mine, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I used spruce and enjoyed it's characteristics. It is easier to work than douglas fir, doesn't stink (fir has a strong turpentine smell when you cut it) and it doesn't split as easily as fir. It also doesn't form splinters very easily. It is VERY expensive compared to fir, but then the total cost of the wood in this project is minimal. I've got about $15,000 in my Pietenpol, of which half is engine. The total cost of all the aircraft grade Sitka Spruce in the plane is about $1,100. Using fir, you could probably make that figure $300, for a savings of $800 - not chicken feed for sure, but carrying an extra 25 lbs around forever is a pretty high price to pay to save 5% on the total cost of the plane. Using aircraft grade spruce also saves time having to sort through lumber at the lumber yard and then plane the material down to the size you actually need. From Wicks or AS&S you can get wood already milled to the exact dimensions you need (and they are very accurate), so all you ned to do is cut it to length. Your choice. Let the flames begin! Jack Phillips NX899JP Once we've put these flames out, we can discuss why Resorcinol is superior to T-88. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimboyer@hughes.net Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 7:53 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood Hi TJ Go to your local lumberyard and pick up/select douglas fir and use it. It is stronger, easy to work and only about 20% heavier and since wood is a small part of the Piet it only adds about 25 pounds. It is also about 25% the cost of spruce. My two cents; my Piet is all Doug Fir. Cheers, Jim _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:03 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ben Charvet After building most of my Piet out of DF, I agree with everything Jack said, except I haven't flown mine yet and can't comment on the flight characteristics. I enjoyed searching local lumber yards for usable lumber and was able to find an incredible deal locally. However, if you don't have access to a planer I don't think you can get your lumber dimensions smooth and accurate enough that I would be satisfied. I like the smell of freshly cut Doug Fir, so that wasn't a problem for me. One of the beauties of the Pietenpol is the many choices you get to make along the way, and you won't know how it all worked out for years.... Ben Charvet http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=481&FName=Ben&LName=Charvet&PlaneName=Air%20Camper ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:37 AM PST US From: TJ Brown Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood Hi again everyone and thanks for the info. Does anyone still have their wood list so I will know where to get started? The thing that bothers me about Aircraft Spruce is that I'm really big on customer service and I feel like they are a big company that doesn't care if I shop with them or not! The quickest way to make me take my business elsewhere is to just blow me off and not return emails or phone calls!!! When you don't return my emails in a couple of weeks or a phone call in 3 days it kinda makes me feel like you don't care if you sell to me or not! I am in Ft. Smith Arkansas for the next couple of days, if there's anyone within a couple of hours of here that wouldn't mind me stopping by asking a thousand questions and drooling over their plane or project. I sure would appreciate it. Thanks again for all the info and hope to get to meet some of ya'll soon! "Phillips, Jack" wrote: Let me add my two cents, and you will almost have a nickel's worth of advice. At the risk of starting another "What wood is best" war, I will say that on a plane like a Pietenpol, 25 lbs makes a very noticeable difference in flight characteristics. If I could easily shed 25 lbs in mine, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I used spruce and enjoyed it's characteristics. It is easier to work than douglas fir, doesn't stink (fir has a strong turpentine smell when you cut it) and it doesn't split as easily as fir. It also doesn't form splinters very easily. It is VERY expensive compared to fir, but then the total cost of the wood in this project is minimal. I've got about $15,000 in my Pietenpol, of which half is engine. The total cost of all the aircraft grade Sitka Spruce in the plane is about $1,100. Using fir, you could probably make that figure $300, for a savings of $800 - not chicken feed for sure, but carrying an extra 25 lbs around forever is a pretty high price to pay to save 5% on the total cost of the plane. Using aircraft grade spruce also saves time having to sort through lumber at the lumber yard and then plane the material down to the size you actually need. From Wicks or AS&S you can get wood already milled to the exact dimensions you need (and they are very accurate), so all you ned to do is cut it to length. Your choice. Let the flames begin! Jack Phillips NX899JP Once we've put these flames out, we can discuss why Resorcinol is superior to T-88. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimboyer@hughes.net Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 7:53 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood Hi TJ Go to your local lumberyard and pick up/select douglas fir and use it. It is stronger, easy to work and only about 20% heavier and since wood is a small part of the Piet it only adds about 25 pounds. It is also about 25% the cost of spruce. My two cents; my Piet is all Doug Fir. Cheers, Jim ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com com .matronics.com/contribution TJ Brown ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:46 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" To everything that Jack said about Doug fir, I can wholeheartedly agree except the smell. I like the smell of it except when you put it on the sander and burn it. And I had access to a planer to work it to the dimension I needed so that was not an issue. I will also add that the grain layers (or whatever you want to call them) alternate very drastically between the hard growth ring and the softer material in between, so when you drill a hole through it the bit tends to want to follow the grain and not your intended line. It's hard to drill a straight, clean hole with a small diameter bit when you're not drilling perpendicular to the growth rings (as if you were drilling right into a tree trunk, if you get my drift). And you would think that a company with the name "Aircraft Spruce" would highlight their service in that product! Over on the KRNet, many have said that they prefer to work with Wicks for wood. And if you're in the PacNW there are a few more sources that aren't readily available to others, unless you can reduce the shipping cost. I've heard that Edensaw ( http://www.edensaw.com/ ) is a good one but I have not dealt with them personally. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:37 AM PST US From: Jdavis2a@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood My Piet is also built completely of Douglas Fir and came in at an empty weight of 615 lbs. with a corvair engine. You can build a light airplane with fir if you avoid too many additions and "improvements" and watch the number of coats on the fabric. Mine has been flying since 95. Have fun, it was a great prodject JIM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:42 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood Hello Group, As far as my experiance goes I have found that gennerally wicks is cheaper when it comes to spruce, but Aircraft spruce and spec. is cheaper on hardware like nuts bolts etc. The only Issue I had from wicks was when I ordered my spars for my Jungster 1 I am building. They sent them all in a 7 ft long cardboard box and had them all (8 spars total) tightly wrapped with masking tape to hold them togeather for shipping. TOO tight, it splintered off a small area where the tape squeezed a little too tight on the corners, in 2 or 3 areas. Luckily that area is laminated with the interplane strut spar plate and the damage is not enough damage to cause structural concerns, but it annoys me to look at it knowing what I paid for the wood. I believe Dad (Gary Bell), liked dealing with Wicks a lot better than Spruce and Specialty. Shad --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Beautiful project, Ben. ...One of the beauties of the Pietenpol is the many choices you get to make along the way, and you won't know how it all worked out for years.... Good point. I would have made some different choices regarding weight had I known how heavy mine would end up. My empty weight is 745 lbs, or about 100 lbs heavier than I expected. Climb performance really suffers (with two 200 lb people on board on a 93 degree F day, it will climb at 100 feet per second, which is the definition of "Service Ceiling". Problem is, that is at 400' MSL.). What added so much weight? Long Fuselage (the list of Pietenpol wts compiled at Brodhead a few years ago showed the average long fuse Piet weighed about 720 lbs) Wire Wheels (about 20 lbs heavier than aluminum aircraft wheels) Wider fuselage (1" extra width added about 10 lbs worth of wood, fabric and paint) Wider centersection and bigger fuel tank Straight Axle landing gear (don't know how much but the axle alone weighs 20 lbs) Avionics (radio, transponder, altitude encoder) 7 lbs Bettery (no generator) 18 lbs Polyurethane paint (60 lbs) All of the above made it a more enjoyable airplane to fly, except for the paint. If I ever recover it, I will use PolyTone rather than polyurethane, and will save at least 40 lbs. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Charvet Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ben Charvet --> After building most of my Piet out of DF, I agree with everything Jack said, except I haven't flown mine yet and can't comment on the flight characteristics. I enjoyed searching local lumber yards for usable lumber and was able to find an incredible deal locally. However, if you don't have access to a planer I don't think you can get your lumber dimensions smooth and accurate enough that I would be satisfied. I like the smell of freshly cut Doug Fir, so that wasn't a problem for me. One of the beauties of the Pietenpol is the many choices you get to make along the way, and you won't know how it all worked out for years.... Ben Charvet http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=481&FName=Be n&LName=Charvet&PlaneName=Air%20Camper _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Around Ft. Smith Arkansas From: "TJ" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "TJ" I will be here in Ft. Smith the next couple of days and wanted to see if anyone lives within a couple of hours of here. I would like to see anyones Piet or Piet project if they dont mind me asking a thousand questions or drooling on it. Thanks a lot TJ! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70428#70428 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:01 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood MessageIf you check through our now massive message history there has been tons of discussion on this wood issue. Being a wood airplane this is reasonable of course. The softwoods suitable for our use are Sitka spruce, Western Hemlock, Douglas Fir(not fir at all!) Port Orford Cedar, True Firs, Yellow Cedar(not really Cedar but Cypress) and possibly pine if you can find it long and clear enough. If you will peruse the chart I will give you in a moment you will see that the ratio of strength verses weight is pretty close to the same across species. Hemlock is a direct substitute for Sitka( AC43) and if you reduce the size of fir in the proper dimension it will have the same strength as Sitka and the same weight. In other words you will lose that 25lb. Bill Rewey has done this. I agree that Douglas Fir is a pain to work with, especially when one of those infamous pitch pockets appears in that final cut!! My fuselage and ribs are entirely Hemlock from many local yards. I know what to look for and have a little anal retentivness in this area. Out of a hundred pieces looked at I may choose one or possibly two. There are many things to be careful of, one of which relates to the original felling of the tree. If it is dropped across one lying on the ground a dislocation of the grain will most likely occur. Some of you may remember Dagwood and Blonde's dog with the zig-zag tail that got that way when the door slammed on it. This will appear similar to that. Basically the grain has been sheared. Sometimes it's visible to the naked eye and sometimes not! But it IS deadly! This doesn't happen often but one wood ladder company was very glad to have a really good insurance policy when a whole mess of ladders broke and hurt people due to this. There's so much cross beam and ply in the fuselage that there wouldn't be much danger if a piece of this was there. The spars are a different story as each is complete unto itself, just like a ladder beam. 99% of the time you'll be OK. Just take your time, go over each plank carefully, watch the grain run-out and grain orientation, signs of knot wood and pitch pockets and reject most of what you see. The looks I get in the lumberyards as I pick out, go over and put back piece after piece. :-) http://clifdawson.ca/Tools_and_Tips.html The wood chart is at the bottom of the page. Halfway down is a wing load diagram for the Hershey Bar wing. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:52 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood Let me add my two cents, and you will almost have a nickel's worth of advice. At the risk of starting another "What wood is best" war, I will say that on a plane like a Pietenpol, 25 lbs makes a very noticeable difference in flight characteristics. If I could easily shed 25 lbs in mine, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I used spruce and enjoyed it's characteristics. It is easier to work than douglas fir, doesn't stink (fir has a strong turpentine smell when you cut it) and it doesn't split as easily as fir. It also doesn't form splinters very easily. It is VERY expensive compared to fir, but then the total cost of the wood in this project is minimal. I've got about $15,000 in my Pietenpol, of which half is engine. The total cost of all the aircraft grade Sitka Spruce in the plane is about $1,100. Using fir, you could probably make that figure $300, for a savings of $800 - not chicken feed for sure, but carrying an extra 25 lbs around forever is a pretty high price to pay to save 5% on the total cost of the plane. Using aircraft grade spruce also saves time having to sort through lumber at the lumber yard and then plane the material down to the size you actually need. From Wicks or AS&S you can get wood already milled to the exact dimensions you need (and they are very accurate), so all you ned to do is cut it to length. Your choice. Let the flames begin! Jack Phillips NX899JP Once we've put these flames out, we can discuss why Resorcinol is superior to T-88. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimboyer@hughes.net Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 7:53 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for wood Hi TJ Go to your local lumberyard and pick up/select douglas fir and use it. It is stronger, easy to work and only about 20% heavier and since wood is a small part of the Piet it only adds about 25 pounds. It is also about 25% the cost of spruce. My two cents; my Piet is all Doug Fir. Cheers, Jim ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com com .matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 10/26/2006 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:20 PM PST US From: "Mike Whaley" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hey buddy, is that a turboprop on your Pietenpol? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike Whaley" OK, bet that subject line caused a few folks to spit their coffee all over their computer screen... sorry... I always figured that the Air Camper design has probably had more different powerplants tried on it than almost any other aircraft... but I have yet to hear of any Piets with a turboprop (or even better, a true jet.) I know, I know... it would be wildly impractical, completely inappropriate, and patently ridiculous. But since the dawn of aviation that's never been an obstacle to the more adventurous aviators out there. Has anyone here ever heard of such a thing? PS - If you had sufficient money, time, skills, and lack of concern for practicality to try out any concievable powerplant(s) on your Piet, what would it be? -Mike the Idly Curious Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:00 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hey buddy, is that a turboprop on your Pietenpol? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson Two small turbojets on the nose, on stalks like the Cri-Cri. Far enough in so as not to melt the wing and jury struts. Far enough out so as not to burn off your elbows. :-) Clif Or maybe 500 Jetex motors. :-) > > I always figured that the Air Camper design has probably had more > different > powerplants tried on it than almost any other aircraft... but I have yet > to > hear of any Piets with a turboprop (or even better, a true jet.) > PS - If you had sufficient money, time, skills, and lack of concern for > practicality to try out any concievable powerplant(s) on your Piet, what > would it be? > > -Mike the Idly Curious