Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:04 AM - flight planning (Gene & Tammy)
2. 07:10 AM - Re: Motor mount question (Dave Abramson)
3. 11:38 AM - Re: Motor mount question (Rcaprd@aol.com)
4. 11:38 AM - Re: Motor mount question (walt evans)
5. 06:12 PM - motor mount question (Oscar Zuniga)
6. 07:17 PM - engine mount jig (Oscar Zuniga)
7. 07:55 PM - Re: engine mount jig (KMHeide)
8. 09:33 PM - Re: engine mount jig (KMHeide)
Message 1
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Edwin,
Thanks for the reply. I'm going to try your suggestion and place a
larger clip board to my side while flying. I used a 6 X 9 knee board,
which worked OK but the larger board to the side sounds like it may be a
better answer. I'll also try the aeroplanner. Our runway has been
closed for improvements but will reopen by the end of the month and by
then I should have the engine work completed. Really looking forward to
getting airborn again.
Gene
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Subject: | Motor mount question |
Hi Walt,
I am building the standard fuselage. I weigh 170 and 62 thus I made mine
a single seater so I have some legroom. People make it sound so simple when
they talk about moving the wing back but I was thinking it couldnt be so
simple unless they know something I dont. Thank you for your explanation!
Am I correct in thinking you can just move the engine out farther to get the
correct CG? (and leave the wing where it is) Of course the nose might get
to be a bit LOOOOOOOOONG!
Cheers,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt evans
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
Dave,
Cause the balance point for flying ( CG or center of gravity) has to be with
in a certain "window" in the chord of the wing, everything under it
including fuse,you, passenger, engine,,,,,everything. is hanging under the
wing from the wing struts and cabane struts. If your final calculated CG
is to the rear of the limits of the "window" you have to correct. The normal
saying is to move the wing back. But to simplify the thought, you are
actually moving the airplane forward .
If you built to plans it's really simple. The cable "X" bracing on the wing
struts have to be remade, along with either,,,the "X" bracing cable on the
right cabane OR the angled tubing "struts" going from the fwd cabanes to
the engine mount area,,,,have to be remade. Also the cowling arount the
base of the cabane struts have to be opened up some for clearance, and new
holes/routing for the aileron cables where they come up thru the cowling by
the rear windshield.
I built the long fuselage with an A-65.
I weigh 220#
lengthened the engine mount 1 3/4"
And still had to move the fuse forward 3"
If you anyway come close to my data, I would rig your Piet with the wing
back right off the bat.
(The original plan design is to have the cabane struts at 90deg from the top
longeron)
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Abramson <mailto:davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
Hi Walt,
I am still building my fuselage, and have my wing ribs built, but I am
wondering how you "move the wing back". Do you have to make new brackets,
or ??? Thanks!
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt evans
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
Rick,
I took exact measurements of the firewall fitting dimensions, and made a jig
that held the firewall mating "teardrop" fittings on that end and it held
the engine side flange fittings. Laid all this out using a square, plumb
bob, and ruler, etc. The final had some slight distortion, but with very
light pressure it fit right on.
Do expect some scortching and battle damage to the jig.
He's a pic.
I think I still have the jig around if you have any interest in it.
(I built the long fuselage ) Let me know and I'll look for it.
Oh yeah, I extented the mount 1 3/4", cause I'm 220# and I still had to
move the wing back
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland <mailto:at7000ft@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
One other engine mount question Walt, when making yours did you make a jig
to match the dimensions of the firewall fittings or were you able to tack
welding it in place on the firewall and then finish weld it off the firewall
fittings?
Rick
On 11/5/06, walt evans < waltdak@verizon.net <mailto:waltdak@verizon.net> >
wrote:
Rick,
My vote is to do it like Bernard did it. I'm flying a Continental A65-8, and
his mount fit like a glove and flys just like it's supposed to.
Ain't Life Grand!
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland <mailto:at7000ft@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
Am beginning an engine mount for my Corvair and have a question about the
four firewall attachments. Have seen Piets done both as per the Continental
and Corvair engine mount plans and others with straps bent 90 degrees and
welded around the tube ends. Any method preferred?, best to do it as Bernard
did it?
Thanks
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
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"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
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Subject: | Re: Motor mount question |
In a message dated 11/7/2006 9:14:52 AM Central Standard Time,
davea@symbolicdisplays.com writes:
I am building the =9Cstandard=9D fuselage. I weigh 170 and 6
=992 thus I made mine
a single seater so I have some legroom. People make it sound so simple when
they talk about =9Cmoving the wing back=9D but I was thinking it
couldn=99t be so
simple unless they know something I don=99t. Thank you for your expla
nation! Am
I correct in thinking you can just move the engine out farther to get the
correct CG? (and leave the wing where it is) Of course the nose might get
to be
a bit LOOOOOOOOONG!
Dave,
Moving the wing back is a unique feature of the Pietenpol, and really
isn't that difficult to do, but requires a couple of new cables if you alrea
dy
had the wing position nailed down. Moving the engine out farther forward do
es
the same thing as moving the wing back - as far as the C of G is concerned.
However, the farther forward the engine is, the more it affects the handling
of
the plane coming out of a slip.
I built the 'Short' fuselage, now with a Continental A65 engine, and I
weight 210 lbs. I moved the engine forward a whopping 8" (increased the wal
l
thickness of the steel tubes), as well as moved the wing back from vertical
3
1/2". It does give the plane a 'Long Nose' look, but with my weight there i
s
no way I can get too far aft on the C of G, even with Zero Fuel the C of G i
s
just at the aft limit. Us 'fat boys' just gotta do what we gotta do !!
With the rudder authority of the Piet, I have no problem coming out of a sli
p.
You can see lots of pictures of my plane on my web site, as well as the
entire C of G calculations under the 'Operations Manual' page.
http://nx770cg.com/
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Motor mount question |
Dave,
Well I'm 6'3" but got some poundage on you. And I fit OK leg room wise.
Just with all the talk of Piets being tail heavy, while building and
reading all the posts, I made a desision to make the mount a few inches
longer. But even with that , my final CG was borderline at best, so
swinging the wing back (body fwd) wasn't a big deal
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Abramson
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 10:10 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
Hi Walt,
I am building the "standard" fuselage. I weigh 170 and 6'2 thus I
made mine a single seater so I have some legroom. People make it sound
so simple when they talk about "moving the wing back" but I was thinking
it couldn't be so simple unless they know something I don't. Thank you
for your explanation! Am I correct in thinking you can just move the
engine out farther to get the correct CG? (and leave the wing where it
is) Of course the nose might get to be a bit LOOOOOOOOONG!
Cheers,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt
evans
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 2:37 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
Dave,
Cause the balance point for flying ( CG or center of gravity) has to
be with in a certain "window" in the chord of the wing, everything
under it including fuse,you, passenger, engine,,,,,everything. is
hanging under the wing from the wing struts and cabane struts. If
your final calculated CG is to the rear of the limits of the "window"
you have to correct. The normal saying is to move the wing back. But to
simplify the thought, you are actually moving the airplane forward .
If you built to plans it's really simple. The cable "X" bracing on the
wing struts have to be remade, along with either,,,the "X" bracing cable
on the right cabane OR the angled tubing "struts" going from the fwd
cabanes to the engine mount area,,,,have to be remade. Also the cowling
arount the base of the cabane struts have to be opened up some for
clearance, and new holes/routing for the aileron cables where they come
up thru the cowling by the rear windshield.
I built the long fuselage with an A-65.
I weigh 220#
lengthened the engine mount 1 3/4"
And still had to move the fuse forward 3"
If you anyway come close to my data, I would rig your Piet with the
wing back right off the bat.
(The original plan design is to have the cabane struts at 90deg from
the top longeron)
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Abramson
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
Hi Walt,
I am still building my fuselage, and have my wing ribs built, but I am
wondering how you "move the wing back". Do you have to make new
brackets, or ??? Thanks!
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt
evans
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 12:23 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
Rick,
I took exact measurements of the firewall fitting dimensions, and made
a jig that held the firewall mating "teardrop" fittings on that end and
it held the engine side flange fittings. Laid all this out using a
square, plumb bob, and ruler, etc. The final had some slight
distortion, but with very light pressure it fit right on.
Do expect some scortching and battle damage to the jig.
He's a pic.
I think I still have the jig around if you have any interest in it.
(I built the long fuselage ) Let me know and I'll look for it.
Oh yeah, I extented the mount 1 3/4", cause I'm 220# and I still had
to move the wing back
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
One other engine mount question Walt, when making yours did you make a
jig to match the dimensions of the firewall fittings or were you able to
tack welding it in place on the firewall and then finish weld it off the
firewall fittings?
Rick
On 11/5/06, walt evans <waltdak@verizon.net> wrote:
Rick,
My vote is to do it like Bernard did it. I'm flying a Continental
A65-8, and his mount fit like a glove and flys just like it's supposed
to.
Ain't Life Grand!
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question
Am beginning an engine mount for my Corvair and have a question about
the four firewall attachments. Have seen Piets done both as per the
Continental and Corvair engine mount plans and others with straps bent
90 degrees and welded around the tube ends. Any method preferred?, best
to do it as Bernard did it?
Thanks
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://w
ww.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.kitlog.com"
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comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigato
r?Pietenpol-List
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
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href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://w
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Subject: | motor mount question |
I guess I'll throw in the numbers for 41CC for comparison. This airplane is
built according to the "improved" plans, being close to 13'-7" from firewall
to tailpost and being framed according to the "improved" dimensions in the
forward bays. It has the top of the cabane struts inclined aft 4" from
vertical and the engine mount stands the engine 14" off the firewall (at the
top), which is an extension of a little more than 2-1/4" from the Pietenpol
engine mount drawings for the A65-8 engine and was evidently a good move
that Corky made when he put it together.
It has a deck angle of 12.2 degrees in the 3-point attitude with its 6.00x6
mains aired up to spec, and in this condition the axle centerline is 5-3/4"
aft of the wing leading edge (line dropped straight down from the LE).
These numbers are said to be indicators of how the airplane will handle on
the ground and rotate on takeoff.
When last weighed (with metal prop, I assume), it came in at 632 lbs. empty
weight and the CG calcs showed it to balance nicely inside the limits in all
normal loading conditions. The two conditions that I have noticed using
spreadsheet "what-ifs" are that it requires a minimum pilot weight of around
90 lbs. with full fuel and no passenger, and also therefore cannot be safely
piloted solo from the front seat. I have placarded it "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY"
in the front cockpit.
Today it wears a Hegy wooden prop and the ELT has been moved aft of the
pilot's seat so a few things have changed since Corky owned it, and the new
W&B will reveal how well it will balance in this new configuration. A smoke
system will also be installed on the forward face of the firewall, but is
not yet in place other than the mounting studs for it and the builder's wild
ideas, sketches, and a workbench top full of bits and pieces. I guess
sometimes smoke gets in my eyes ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: | engine mount jig |
I forgot to mention how I worked out the jig for the VW engine mount in my
"Flying Squirrel" (not flying yet though). It was actually very enjoyable
to build the jig because I knew goofs wouldn't matter much; I could re-drill
or re-cut anything since it was just for the jig. It was a nice Saturday
job to build the jig.
I started out with a piece of scrap sheet metal (ductwork) measured and cut
to the exact shape of the firewall, then mounted it to a piece of heavy
plywood with some 2x4 back framing. Scrounge hardware mounted the sheet
metal to the plywood, then I carefully located where the engine mount points
would be. I had the four "spool" pieces that would form the four corners of
the mount and I bolted those to the firewall jig with hardware store bolts.
I mounted this firewall jig to a 2x4 frame that also supported the engine
with some wood framing, in its desired relationship to the firewall. I also
put this frame on casters to make it easy to move around, but that's just
gravy. By the way, pictures of this are the first few at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/engine/engine.html and the pictures will tell the
whole story.
I took this to my friend Jeff Sterling, who then welded the engine mount
tubing together and it didn't matter if the plywood or 2x4's charred... it's
all throwaway anyway. It turned out very nice. Actually, I was so happy
with the sheet metal firewall that I wouldn't mind using it for a "real"
airplane sometime and the cost was great (free).
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: | Re: engine mount jig |
Just a thought about the jig....Knowing the Ercoupe and its canted down and away
engine mount to reduce p-factor...has anyone created an engine mount with this
in mind as it works very well in the Ercoupe design? Do not know of the total
amount of downward canting......Again...just a thought..
Ken H.
Fargo, ND
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
I forgot to mention how I worked out the jig for the VW engine mount in my
"Flying Squirrel" (not flying yet though). It was actually very enjoyable
to build the jig because I knew goofs wouldn't matter much; I could re-drill
or re-cut anything since it was just for the jig. It was a nice Saturday
job to build the jig.
I started out with a piece of scrap sheet metal (ductwork) measured and cut
to the exact shape of the firewall, then mounted it to a piece of heavy
plywood with some 2x4 back framing. Scrounge hardware mounted the sheet
metal to the plywood, then I carefully located where the engine mount points
would be. I had the four "spool" pieces that would form the four corners of
the mount and I bolted those to the firewall jig with hardware store bolts.
I mounted this firewall jig to a 2x4 frame that also supported the engine
with some wood framing, in its desired relationship to the firewall. I also
put this frame on casters to make it easy to move around, but that's just
gravy. By the way, pictures of this are the first few at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/engine/engine.html and the pictures will tell the
whole story.
I took this to my friend Jeff Sterling, who then welded the engine mount
tubing together and it didn't matter if the plywood or 2x4's charred... it's
all throwaway anyway. It turned out very nice. Actually, I was so happy
with the sheet metal firewall that I wouldn't mind using it for a "real"
airplane sometime and the cost was great (free).
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: | Re: engine mount jig |
Just a thought about the jig....Knowing the Ercoupe and its canted down and away
engine mount to reduce p-factor...has anyone created an engine mount with this
in mind as it works very well in the Ercoupe design? Do not know of the total
amount of downward canting......Again...just a thought..
Ken H.
Fargo, ND
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
I forgot to mention how I worked out the jig for the VW engine mount in my
"Flying Squirrel" (not flying yet though). It was actually very enjoyable
to build the jig because I knew goofs wouldn't matter much; I could re-drill
or re-cut anything since it was just for the jig. It was a nice Saturday
job to build the jig.
I started out with a piece of scrap sheet metal (ductwork) measured and cut
to the exact shape of the firewall, then mounted it to a piece of heavy
plywood with some 2x4 back framing. Scrounge hardware mounted the sheet
metal to the plywood, then I carefully located where the engine mount points
would be. I had the four "spool" pieces that would form the four corners of
the mount and I bolted those to the firewall jig with hardware store bolts.
I mounted this firewall jig to a 2x4 frame that also supported the engine
with some wood framing, in its desired relationship to the firewall. I also
put this frame on casters to make it easy to move around, but that's just
gravy. By the way, pictures of this are the first few at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/engine/engine.html and the pictures will tell the
whole story.
I took this to my friend Jeff Sterling, who then welded the engine mount
tubing together and it didn't matter if the plywood or 2x4's charred... it's
all throwaway anyway. It turned out very nice. Actually, I was so happy
with the sheet metal firewall that I wouldn't mind using it for a "real"
airplane sometime and the cost was great (free).
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
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Microsoft Office Live
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