---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/07/06: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:04 AM - flight planning (Gene & Tammy) 2. 07:10 AM - Re: Motor mount question (Dave Abramson) 3. 11:38 AM - Re: Motor mount question (Rcaprd@aol.com) 4. 11:38 AM - Re: Motor mount question (walt evans) 5. 06:12 PM - motor mount question (Oscar Zuniga) 6. 07:17 PM - engine mount jig (Oscar Zuniga) 7. 07:55 PM - Re: engine mount jig (KMHeide) 8. 09:33 PM - Re: engine mount jig (KMHeide) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:58 AM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Pietenpol-List: flight planning Edwin, Thanks for the reply. I'm going to try your suggestion and place a larger clip board to my side while flying. I used a 6 X 9 knee board, which worked OK but the larger board to the side sounds like it may be a better answer. I'll also try the aeroplanner. Our runway has been closed for improvements but will reopen by the end of the month and by then I should have the engine work completed. Really looking forward to getting airborn again. Gene ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:56 AM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Hi Walt, I am building the standard fuselage. I weigh 170 and 62 thus I made mine a single seater so I have some legroom. People make it sound so simple when they talk about moving the wing back but I was thinking it couldnt be so simple unless they know something I dont. Thank you for your explanation! Am I correct in thinking you can just move the engine out farther to get the correct CG? (and leave the wing where it is) Of course the nose might get to be a bit LOOOOOOOOONG! Cheers, Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Dave, Cause the balance point for flying ( CG or center of gravity) has to be with in a certain "window" in the chord of the wing, everything under it including fuse,you, passenger, engine,,,,,everything. is hanging under the wing from the wing struts and cabane struts. If your final calculated CG is to the rear of the limits of the "window" you have to correct. The normal saying is to move the wing back. But to simplify the thought, you are actually moving the airplane forward . If you built to plans it's really simple. The cable "X" bracing on the wing struts have to be remade, along with either,,,the "X" bracing cable on the right cabane OR the angled tubing "struts" going from the fwd cabanes to the engine mount area,,,,have to be remade. Also the cowling arount the base of the cabane struts have to be opened up some for clearance, and new holes/routing for the aileron cables where they come up thru the cowling by the rear windshield. I built the long fuselage with an A-65. I weigh 220# lengthened the engine mount 1 3/4" And still had to move the fuse forward 3" If you anyway come close to my data, I would rig your Piet with the wing back right off the bat. (The original plan design is to have the cabane struts at 90deg from the top longeron) walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Abramson Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Hi Walt, I am still building my fuselage, and have my wing ribs built, but I am wondering how you "move the wing back". Do you have to make new brackets, or ??? Thanks! Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Rick, I took exact measurements of the firewall fitting dimensions, and made a jig that held the firewall mating "teardrop" fittings on that end and it held the engine side flange fittings. Laid all this out using a square, plumb bob, and ruler, etc. The final had some slight distortion, but with very light pressure it fit right on. Do expect some scortching and battle damage to the jig. He's a pic. I think I still have the jig around if you have any interest in it. (I built the long fuselage ) Let me know and I'll look for it. Oh yeah, I extented the mount 1 3/4", cause I'm 220# and I still had to move the wing back walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question One other engine mount question Walt, when making yours did you make a jig to match the dimensions of the firewall fittings or were you able to tack welding it in place on the firewall and then finish weld it off the firewall fittings? Rick On 11/5/06, walt evans < waltdak@verizon.net > wrote: Rick, My vote is to do it like Bernard did it. I'm flying a Continental A65-8, and his mount fit like a glove and flys just like it's supposed to. Ain't Life Grand! walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:45 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Am beginning an engine mount for my Corvair and have a question about the four firewall attachments. Have seen Piets done both as per the Continental and Corvair engine mount plans and others with straps bent 90 degrees and welded around the tube ends. Any method preferred?, best to do it as Bernard did it? Thanks -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" href=" http://www.aeroelectric.com"> www.aeroelectric.com href=" http://www.buildersbooks.com"> www.buildersbooks.com href=" http://www.kitlog.com"> www.kitlog.com href=" http://www.homebuilthelp.com"> www.homebuilthelp.com href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.kitlog.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:43 AM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question In a message dated 11/7/2006 9:14:52 AM Central Standard Time, davea@symbolicdisplays.com writes: I am building the =9Cstandard=9D fuselage. I weigh 170 and 6 =992 thus I made mine a single seater so I have some legroom. People make it sound so simple when they talk about =9Cmoving the wing back=9D but I was thinking it couldn=99t be so simple unless they know something I don=99t. Thank you for your expla nation! Am I correct in thinking you can just move the engine out farther to get the correct CG? (and leave the wing where it is) Of course the nose might get to be a bit LOOOOOOOOONG! Dave, Moving the wing back is a unique feature of the Pietenpol, and really isn't that difficult to do, but requires a couple of new cables if you alrea dy had the wing position nailed down. Moving the engine out farther forward do es the same thing as moving the wing back - as far as the C of G is concerned. However, the farther forward the engine is, the more it affects the handling of the plane coming out of a slip. I built the 'Short' fuselage, now with a Continental A65 engine, and I weight 210 lbs. I moved the engine forward a whopping 8" (increased the wal l thickness of the steel tubes), as well as moved the wing back from vertical 3 1/2". It does give the plane a 'Long Nose' look, but with my weight there i s no way I can get too far aft on the C of G, even with Zero Fuel the C of G i s just at the aft limit. Us 'fat boys' just gotta do what we gotta do !! With the rudder authority of the Piet, I have no problem coming out of a sli p. You can see lots of pictures of my plane on my web site, as well as the entire C of G calculations under the 'Operations Manual' page. http://nx770cg.com/ Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:51 AM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Dave, Well I'm 6'3" but got some poundage on you. And I fit OK leg room wise. Just with all the talk of Piets being tail heavy, while building and reading all the posts, I made a desision to make the mount a few inches longer. But even with that , my final CG was borderline at best, so swinging the wing back (body fwd) wasn't a big deal walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Abramson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 10:10 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Hi Walt, I am building the "standard" fuselage. I weigh 170 and 6'2 thus I made mine a single seater so I have some legroom. People make it sound so simple when they talk about "moving the wing back" but I was thinking it couldn't be so simple unless they know something I don't. Thank you for your explanation! Am I correct in thinking you can just move the engine out farther to get the correct CG? (and leave the wing where it is) Of course the nose might get to be a bit LOOOOOOOOONG! Cheers, Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 2:37 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Dave, Cause the balance point for flying ( CG or center of gravity) has to be with in a certain "window" in the chord of the wing, everything under it including fuse,you, passenger, engine,,,,,everything. is hanging under the wing from the wing struts and cabane struts. If your final calculated CG is to the rear of the limits of the "window" you have to correct. The normal saying is to move the wing back. But to simplify the thought, you are actually moving the airplane forward . If you built to plans it's really simple. The cable "X" bracing on the wing struts have to be remade, along with either,,,the "X" bracing cable on the right cabane OR the angled tubing "struts" going from the fwd cabanes to the engine mount area,,,,have to be remade. Also the cowling arount the base of the cabane struts have to be opened up some for clearance, and new holes/routing for the aileron cables where they come up thru the cowling by the rear windshield. I built the long fuselage with an A-65. I weigh 220# lengthened the engine mount 1 3/4" And still had to move the fuse forward 3" If you anyway come close to my data, I would rig your Piet with the wing back right off the bat. (The original plan design is to have the cabane struts at 90deg from the top longeron) walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Abramson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Hi Walt, I am still building my fuselage, and have my wing ribs built, but I am wondering how you "move the wing back". Do you have to make new brackets, or ??? Thanks! Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 12:23 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Rick, I took exact measurements of the firewall fitting dimensions, and made a jig that held the firewall mating "teardrop" fittings on that end and it held the engine side flange fittings. Laid all this out using a square, plumb bob, and ruler, etc. The final had some slight distortion, but with very light pressure it fit right on. Do expect some scortching and battle damage to the jig. He's a pic. I think I still have the jig around if you have any interest in it. (I built the long fuselage ) Let me know and I'll look for it. Oh yeah, I extented the mount 1 3/4", cause I'm 220# and I still had to move the wing back walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question One other engine mount question Walt, when making yours did you make a jig to match the dimensions of the firewall fittings or were you able to tack welding it in place on the firewall and then finish weld it off the firewall fittings? Rick On 11/5/06, walt evans wrote: Rick, My vote is to do it like Bernard did it. I'm flying a Continental A65-8, and his mount fit like a glove and flys just like it's supposed to. Ain't Life Grand! walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:45 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount question Am beginning an engine mount for my Corvair and have a question about the four firewall attachments. Have seen Piets done both as per the Continental and Corvair engine mount plans and others with straps bent 90 degrees and welded around the tube ends. Any method preferred?, best to do it as Bernard did it? Thanks -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://w ww.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.kitlog.com" >www.kitlog.comhref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.co mhref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.kitlog.comwww.homebuilthelp. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigato r?Pietenpol-List -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://w ww.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.kitlog.com" >www.kitlog.comhref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.co mhref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://w ww.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.kitlog.com" >www.kitlog.comhref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.co mhref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the Contribution link below to find out more about this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by: * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com * Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com List Contribution Web Site --> Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:35 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: motor mount question I guess I'll throw in the numbers for 41CC for comparison. This airplane is built according to the "improved" plans, being close to 13'-7" from firewall to tailpost and being framed according to the "improved" dimensions in the forward bays. It has the top of the cabane struts inclined aft 4" from vertical and the engine mount stands the engine 14" off the firewall (at the top), which is an extension of a little more than 2-1/4" from the Pietenpol engine mount drawings for the A65-8 engine and was evidently a good move that Corky made when he put it together. It has a deck angle of 12.2 degrees in the 3-point attitude with its 6.00x6 mains aired up to spec, and in this condition the axle centerline is 5-3/4" aft of the wing leading edge (line dropped straight down from the LE). These numbers are said to be indicators of how the airplane will handle on the ground and rotate on takeoff. When last weighed (with metal prop, I assume), it came in at 632 lbs. empty weight and the CG calcs showed it to balance nicely inside the limits in all normal loading conditions. The two conditions that I have noticed using spreadsheet "what-ifs" are that it requires a minimum pilot weight of around 90 lbs. with full fuel and no passenger, and also therefore cannot be safely piloted solo from the front seat. I have placarded it "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY" in the front cockpit. Today it wears a Hegy wooden prop and the ELT has been moved aft of the pilot's seat so a few things have changed since Corky owned it, and the new W&B will reveal how well it will balance in this new configuration. A smoke system will also be installed on the forward face of the firewall, but is not yet in place other than the mounting studs for it and the builder's wild ideas, sketches, and a workbench top full of bits and pieces. I guess sometimes smoke gets in my eyes ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:52 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine mount jig I forgot to mention how I worked out the jig for the VW engine mount in my "Flying Squirrel" (not flying yet though). It was actually very enjoyable to build the jig because I knew goofs wouldn't matter much; I could re-drill or re-cut anything since it was just for the jig. It was a nice Saturday job to build the jig. I started out with a piece of scrap sheet metal (ductwork) measured and cut to the exact shape of the firewall, then mounted it to a piece of heavy plywood with some 2x4 back framing. Scrounge hardware mounted the sheet metal to the plywood, then I carefully located where the engine mount points would be. I had the four "spool" pieces that would form the four corners of the mount and I bolted those to the firewall jig with hardware store bolts. I mounted this firewall jig to a 2x4 frame that also supported the engine with some wood framing, in its desired relationship to the firewall. I also put this frame on casters to make it easy to move around, but that's just gravy. By the way, pictures of this are the first few at http://www.flysquirrel.net/engine/engine.html and the pictures will tell the whole story. I took this to my friend Jeff Sterling, who then welded the engine mount tubing together and it didn't matter if the plywood or 2x4's charred... it's all throwaway anyway. It turned out very nice. Actually, I was so happy with the sheet metal firewall that I wouldn't mind using it for a "real" airplane sometime and the cost was great (free). Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:03 PM PST US From: KMHeide Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine mount jig Just a thought about the jig....Knowing the Ercoupe and its canted down and away engine mount to reduce p-factor...has anyone created an engine mount with this in mind as it works very well in the Ercoupe design? Do not know of the total amount of downward canting......Again...just a thought.. Ken H. Fargo, ND Oscar Zuniga wrote: I forgot to mention how I worked out the jig for the VW engine mount in my "Flying Squirrel" (not flying yet though). It was actually very enjoyable to build the jig because I knew goofs wouldn't matter much; I could re-drill or re-cut anything since it was just for the jig. It was a nice Saturday job to build the jig. I started out with a piece of scrap sheet metal (ductwork) measured and cut to the exact shape of the firewall, then mounted it to a piece of heavy plywood with some 2x4 back framing. Scrounge hardware mounted the sheet metal to the plywood, then I carefully located where the engine mount points would be. I had the four "spool" pieces that would form the four corners of the mount and I bolted those to the firewall jig with hardware store bolts. I mounted this firewall jig to a 2x4 frame that also supported the engine with some wood framing, in its desired relationship to the firewall. I also put this frame on casters to make it easy to move around, but that's just gravy. By the way, pictures of this are the first few at http://www.flysquirrel.net/engine/engine.html and the pictures will tell the whole story. I took this to my friend Jeff Sterling, who then welded the engine mount tubing together and it didn't matter if the plywood or 2x4's charred... it's all throwaway anyway. It turned out very nice. Actually, I was so happy with the sheet metal firewall that I wouldn't mind using it for a "real" airplane sometime and the cost was great (free). Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Get a free Motorola Razr! Today Only! Choose Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, or T-Mobile. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:51 PM PST US From: KMHeide Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine mount jig Just a thought about the jig....Knowing the Ercoupe and its canted down and away engine mount to reduce p-factor...has anyone created an engine mount with this in mind as it works very well in the Ercoupe design? Do not know of the total amount of downward canting......Again...just a thought.. Ken H. Fargo, ND Oscar Zuniga wrote: I forgot to mention how I worked out the jig for the VW engine mount in my "Flying Squirrel" (not flying yet though). It was actually very enjoyable to build the jig because I knew goofs wouldn't matter much; I could re-drill or re-cut anything since it was just for the jig. It was a nice Saturday job to build the jig. I started out with a piece of scrap sheet metal (ductwork) measured and cut to the exact shape of the firewall, then mounted it to a piece of heavy plywood with some 2x4 back framing. Scrounge hardware mounted the sheet metal to the plywood, then I carefully located where the engine mount points would be. I had the four "spool" pieces that would form the four corners of the mount and I bolted those to the firewall jig with hardware store bolts. I mounted this firewall jig to a 2x4 frame that also supported the engine with some wood framing, in its desired relationship to the firewall. I also put this frame on casters to make it easy to move around, but that's just gravy. By the way, pictures of this are the first few at http://www.flysquirrel.net/engine/engine.html and the pictures will tell the whole story. I took this to my friend Jeff Sterling, who then welded the engine mount tubing together and it didn't matter if the plywood or 2x4's charred... it's all throwaway anyway. It turned out very nice. Actually, I was so happy with the sheet metal firewall that I wouldn't mind using it for a "real" airplane sometime and the cost was great (free). Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo. Intro-*Terms