---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/23/06: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:00 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (Peter W Johnson) 2. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: High density altitude airport (Rick Holland) 3. 07:33 AM - control cables (Ralph) 4. 07:50 AM - Re: control cables (Rcaprd@aol.com) 5. 08:08 AM - Re: control cables () 6. 02:41 PM - Long Newguy Introduction (Tim Verthein) 7. 03:38 PM - Re: Long Newguy Introduction (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 8. 04:03 PM - 41CC is headed south (Oscar Zuniga) 9. 04:04 PM - Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? (Scott Schreiber) 10. 04:58 PM - Re: 41CC is headed south (walt evans) 11. 05:17 PM - Re: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? (Ben Ramler) 12. 06:21 PM - Re: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? (Dick Navratil) 13. 07:16 PM - control cables (Oscar Zuniga) 14. 08:25 PM - Re: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? (Scott Schreiber) 15. 08:46 PM - Re: Re: High density altitude airport (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:03 AM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance Walt/Greg, I moved the wing back about three inches today. It made a difference (forward) of about five inches. I can now make up my front cabane struts and be happy. I'll do another complete W&B after the struts are fitted. Many thanks Peter. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Thursday, 23 November 2006 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance Peter, Sure, I guess I can put on this reply. I didn't make it up. Someone in this group or the Fisher Flying Products group shared it with me. See if it downloads all four. I did four different setups, for all possible modes. Everything from max plane, to light pilot with heavy fuel, to heavy pilot with low fuel. It's a great little program, just highlite the square and change the value. Hit enter and the bottom line changes. I used the prop hub tip as the datum. So the distance from there to the leading edge plus the "window" on the wing , gave the final result. Say you want to add an instrument,,,,you can "add" it on paper and see the result, before you put it on. If you're designing a new plane, you put the people in the seats measuring at where the navel is in the seat. (actually they call out something else, but this is a family group) :^) Have fun walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter W Johnson" Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 4:34 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance > > > Walt, > > Thats what I am hoping. I would appreciate a copy of your spreadsheet. I > have made one myself but would be good to see how you have done it. > > Thanks > > Peter. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans > Sent: Thursday, 23 November 2006 5:48 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance > > > Greg, > Nah, forward. > > Peter, > Don't think of it as moving the wing back, but rather moving the fuselage > forward. > So the imaginary point , on the wing, that the whole plane would teeter > on, before moving, would be in an exact spot. > After you moved the fuselage forward, now you'd have to pick a spot > further > > forward to balance everything. > hope this makes sense. > If you have Windows Excel I can send you a small program, given to me, > where you can just plug in all the numbers and see the final result to any > plane > walt evans > NX140DL > > "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" > Ben Franklin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "gcardinal" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:15 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance > > >> >> The reason for moving the wing is to change the location of the airfoil's >> center of lift in relation to the aircraft's center of gravity. >> To answer your question, the aircraft cg will move aft when you move the >> wing aft but the airfoil center of lift will move aft much more than the >> cg. >> >> Greg C. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Peter W Johnson" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 6:32 AM >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance >> >> >>> >>> >>> Hi Guys, >>> >>> This may be a dumb question but which way does the C of G move if you >>> move >>> the wing BACK! Does it follow the wing movement, i.e. move the wing back >>> CG >>> moves aft, move the wing forward CG moves forward? >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Peter >>> Wonthaggi, Australia >>> http://www.cpc-world.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> 10:36 PM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > 10:36 PM > > > -- > 10:36 PM > > > -- 10:36 PM -- 5:41 PM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:17 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: High density altitude airport Would think that wing loading would be more relevent than wing area. Rick On 11/21/06, Clif Dawson wrote: > > Don't forget the difference in wing area. > > And don't forget, that 100 hp Lyc or Continental > started out life at the factory door with only 80 > true horsepower. > > Put those two together and what do you get? > > Clif > > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: High density altitude airport > > My airport is at 6840, over 10,000 density altitude on a hot day. Am going > with a Corvair (100 HP), will let you know if it's enough. I have flown 150s > (also 100 HP and 1000lbs empty weight) many times with a passenger from > similiar altitude airports and did ok so it should be enough. > > Rick > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:00 AM PST US From: "Ralph" Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cables I am at the "bolt it together and string the cables before covering" stage. When I remove the wings, how do I disassemble the aileron cables through the pulleys in the center section after I have installed the ends for fastening to the control stick? Carol and Ralph Raymond ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:42 AM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: control cables In a message dated 11/23/2006 9:34:41 AM Central Standard Time, ralphhsd@itctel.com writes: When I remove the wings, how do I disassemble the aileron cables through the pulleys in the center section after I have installed the ends for fastening to the control stick? Ralph, Don't terminate the ends of the cables, till final assembly. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: control cables From: Another alternative is to remove the pully wheel but that is a pain in the ass.it can be done but harder to put back together especially after covering.Where my pullies are located at an inspection hole made in the fabric using half a cover cap to cover half the hole.If you blow up the second pic you can see the half hole covers.You have to have small hands to take it apart and put it back together but it can be done.Ya just snag some kid that's runnin around the field and bribe him to help ya out. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rcaprd@aol.com Sent: November 23, 2006 10:50 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: control cables In a message dated 11/23/2006 9:34:41 AM Central Standard Time, ralphhsd@itctel.com writes: When I remove the wings, how do I disassemble the aileron cables through the pulleys in the center section after I have installed the ends for fastening to the control stick? Ralph, Don't terminate the ends of the cables, till final assembly. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:19 PM PST US From: Tim Verthein Subject: Pietenpol-List: Long Newguy Introduction Hi All! Been lurking for some time now, figured I should stick my hand out and say Howdy! I tend to get winded, so better grab some more food and relax.... Tim is the name, my wife is Ronna, and we're in Bovey Minnesota, just 7 miles up the Iron Range from Grand Rapids, and about 70 miles NW of Duluth. I always sign off as "Tim in Bovey" on the various lists I belong to to avoid confusion with the plethora of other Tims out there. Our aviation interests go back a long ways. Dad was a PP, hasn't flown for years now, he's 78. Ronna grew up in Roundup, MT, with a close family friend who owned/operated the airport there and they used to fly a lot. I spent tons of time as a kid thru teen years flying with Dad in 120, 140, 172, a Mooney and a T-Craft (those are the ones I can remember anyway). I have always wanted to get my PP but due to many things, mostly time, money and medical issues, never did more than a few hours of dual for the fun of it. I'd been watching the LSP develop over the past few years and did a big YIPEEE! when it went thru. So, we are both intending on getting LSP tickets in the near future. In the meantime.... We've deicded to build airplanes. Attracted by the greatly reduced cost compared to buying a certified plane, the fact that we can do our own repairs/maintenence, and that we can spread the cost over time, buying what we need as we build, no financing is going to be necessary. All in all, a good deal! We decided to build a Zenith CH-701, all aluminum STOL plane, after researching tons and tons of planes/kits. We went to the Zenith workshop in October, got some demo flights in, and built the rudder, and we're ready to proceed. I figured minimum 2+ years to completion. Haven't decided yet, but leaning toward Jabiru power, as I like the concept better than the Rotax, and don't want to go Corvair with this plane for several reasons. Anyway.... Somewhere along the way in the past couple months I discovered the Pietenpol, and it's really grabbed me by the..well..you know the phrase....ordered the info pack from Don, read a ton of magazine articles, AND about 70% of the digests for this list (just a year to go and I'm all caught up with you guys). So, anyway, we've decided to build a Piet too, at the same time. When we're saving up cash, or hiding indoors because it's 40 below zero out in the garage and we don't want to be working on the Zenith, we can be in the basement making ribs and tail feathers. I built a lot of R/C and C/L models in my day, and it will be nice to work in 1:1 scale! I'm already thinking Corvair power for the Piet because.... I also happen to be a Corvair driver. My Son is too. I have a '64, he has 2 65's. I drive mine as a daily driver except in the worst of winter and also autocross it. I'm thinking along the lines of a complete, ready to run Corvair from flycorvair, simply because they, to me, are a heck of a good deal, and I have complete faith in the powerplant, and am familier with repair/upkeep for them. So, that's my story. I'm sure we'll have lots of questions as time goes on. It appears there are some grey areas in the plans, and I'm sure I'll make a tweak here or there myself as I bet most of you do. We're regular Oshkosh attendees, and excited about the Brodhead event too. We have a local EAA chapter that's pretty active. I haven't been able to hook up with them yet....busy busy busy...but will soon. I figure I better get on the waiting list for a hanger over in Grand Rapids, too, since it's about a 2 year wait and we'll need some serious space by then! Can anyone recommend some good books about the Pietenpol, and wood plane building in general? I have a few already, but I bet there's more out there. We're prepared for projects that will take time, but be a great husband/wife adventure! And we'll be able to get Dad's trusty Shopsmith out of mothballs (anyone else remember the Shopsmith?) BTW, I too was concerned about fiting in a Piet, as I was about a 701 for that matter. I'm 6'2". A year ago I weighed 290. When I decided it was time to fly, get healthy, get my BP under control, and stop being pooped out by the time I got to the top of the stairs....I've got myself down to 185! Best way to improve several things, health, autocross handling in a Corvair, and flight charasterics! Most fun I've ever had flying, was riding with the Red Baron Squadron (yes, the Pizza guys) in their Stearman. They were here for a promotional event (I spose I should mention...I'm the morning radio show host in Grand Rapids..so I get all the media perks..I've been on the air somewhere for 31 years now....in GR for 19...check us out at http://www.kozyradio.com you can listen to some morning show podcasts if you're up to it) Anyway, when I got to the airport to fly with them..the pilot took one look at me and said "Not till this afternoon" They had just arrived after about a 60 mile flight, and their tanks were almost full. With me at about 290 back then...they wouldn't stunt with that much weight! So had to come back 4 hours later after they had done a bunch of rides for kids and whatnot..so the planes were lighter....but got the full treatment....hammerhead stall, loops, rolls, wingover..it was GREAT! I knew it would be interesting before we took off, as he was fitting the parachute to my butt and explaing how to work it..he said "If I say 'bailout! bailout! bailout!' 3 times like that, I mean it". What a thrill THAT was! If you're *really* got time to kill, have a look at my web page at: http://www.edselmotors.com (yes, we also own an Edsel) There a bunch of Corvair stuff there, and lots of other time killing stuff. I plan on adding a flying section eventually. I have a teensey weensey bit of flying stuff still posted at my ancient old web page at: http://www.uslink.net/~hepcats/planes.html Tim in Bovey == You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor! == Cheap talk? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:45 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long Newguy Introduction In a message dated 11/23/2006 5:42:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, minoxphotographer@yahoo.com writes: http://www.edselmotors.com Hi Tim, Like you I been watching and reading about the Piet since I first saw it on a TV special, cant remember which , but like you it grabbed me and I was captivated by it. Funny thing is that I look at the 172 but my interests always go back to the Piet. I finally bit the bullet and got a set of plans in May of this year and have been deeply involved in research, really enjoying visiting other builders and owners across the country, taking pics and asking questions. Although I have not begun my build as of yet I am doing the reading got Tony's books real informative and full of great build tips. Chucks DVD is also a good resource. The good news is that there is a bunch of support and help here. Best of luck in your build! John Hey really loved the Edsel. Thanks ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:30 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: 41CC is headed south Well, tomorrow (Friday) is the big day. The airplane is outside on the trailer, hitched up and ready to go down to Zapata County Airport where the wings have been quietly resting in a hangar for a bit over two years now (yes, two years!). I have all the tools, hardware, wing struts, everything ready to roll. Tomorrow I'll trailer the airplane down and reattach the wings and try to get them re-rigged in preparation for a new W&B and annual. Everything is ready. Something to give thanks for, you can be sure! Also want to give thanks for Corky, Mikee, Chuck, Walt, Shad, Dick, Doc, Tim, Jack, Sterling, and everybody else who has coaxed me along for two years during the repair and rebuild. You guys are great, and so is this list. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ View Athletes Collections with Live Search http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:50 PM PST US From: "Scott Schreiber" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? I have my fuse sides done! http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietfuse3.jpg And I was wondering if there is any great trick to use to cut the "wedge" out at the tail post where they join? -Scott ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:29 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 41CC is headed south Oscar, Good for you. Keep us posted on the progress. Us "nawtherners" are in awe of you guys down South for two things,,,warm weather,,,and Corky's Shrimp Gumbo. Hope this post finds all members of the group and their families well and happy after their Dinner. walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:01 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 41CC is headed south > > > Well, tomorrow (Friday) is the big day. The airplane is outside on the > trailer, hitched up and ready to go down to Zapata County Airport where > the wings have been quietly resting in a hangar for a bit over two years > now (yes, two years!). I have all the tools, hardware, wing struts, > everything ready to roll. Tomorrow I'll trailer the airplane down and > reattach the wings and try to get them re-rigged in preparation for a new > W&B and annual. Everything is ready. > > Something to give thanks for, you can be sure! Also want to give thanks > for Corky, Mikee, Chuck, Walt, Shad, Dick, Doc, Tim, Jack, Sterling, and > everybody else who has coaxed me along for two years during the repair and > rebuild. You guys are great, and so is this list. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > _________________________________________________________________ > View Athlete's Collections with Live Search > http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:23 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? Nice shot Scott! Wow is the only thing I can say! How roughly did that take you? just curious?=0A=0ABen=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Sc ott Schreiber =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0A Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:02:52 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Cut out at tailpost, any great tips?=0A=0A=0AI have my fuse sides done! http:// www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietfuse3.jpg And I was wondering if there is any g reat trick to use to cut the "wedge" out at the tail post where they join? -======================== =============0A=0A=0A =0A__________________________ .yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:09 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? Scott Thats a job that seems simple, but it's one of those technical things that has to be done right. You will need to make a straight line on your jig and block the fuse in place. Find the center line of all the cross members that you have installed so far. Make sure each member and the tail post falls exactly on the centerline. Then there are a couple of ways to proceed. with the halves together, make a mark on each half to rough cut with a hand plane or use a small saw. Re-fit the halves and if they are somewhat close, use a belt from a belt sander, cut open, 80 grit and pull it back and forth to final fit. Others may have diffrent methods of sanding or cutting but there is no shortcut on getting your fuse trued up straight. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:02 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? I have my fuse sides done! http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietfuse3.jpg And I was wondering if there is any great trick to use to cut the "wedge" out at the tail post where they join? -Scott ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:00 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cables Ralph wrote- >When I remove the wings, how do I disassemble the aileron cables >through the pulleys in the center section after I have installed the ends >for fastening to the control stick? Not sure what you're asking, but I will tell you that the wings are presently removed from 41CC and it was very convenient that Corky provided access covers and cable links just at the wing roots to allow the aileron cables to be disconnected and the wings removed without pulling the cables through the pulleys. Harder to describe than to do, but I can take pictures if it would help and if we're talking about the same thing. To disconnect the wings, I cut the safety wires from the turnbuckles at the bellcranks down at the joystick in the cockpit, backed the tension off the aileron cables, removed the inspection covers on the undersides of the wings, disconnected the aileron cable connector links (like motorcycle chain links), and voila-! that, plus the pitot tube line, and the wings came right off. There are links connecting the two aileron cables plus the cable that connects the port and starboard ailerons across the top. FWIW, Corky cautioned me about not removing one wing at a time. He recommended that I lower both wingtips to the ground first, then remove one wing and the other. If you remove one wing at a time you may end up with the airplane tipping over onto one wingtip. Fortunately, we had lots of cardboard boxes full of stored stuff to stack up under the wings to support them while we worked. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId00,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0601&tcode=wlmtagline ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:36 PM PST US From: "Scott Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? The same is true with giant scale R/C, I am fine with the process, what I was reffering to in specific is the actual cutting of the tail post area. When you talking about 1/2x1/4 spruce and 1/4 by 1/4 balsa it is a simple matter of a razor saw. I was wondering if some great method had been worked out. -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? Scott Thats a job that seems simple, but it's one of those technical things that has to be done right. You will need to make a straight line on your jig and block the fuse in place. Find the center line of all the cross members that you have installed so far. Make sure each member and the tail post falls exactly on the centerline. Then there are a couple of ways to proceed. with the halves together, make a mark on each half to rough cut with a hand plane or use a small saw. Re-fit the halves and if they are somewhat close, use a belt from a belt sander, cut open, 80 grit and pull it back and forth to final fit. Others may have diffrent methods of sanding or cutting but there is no shortcut on getting your fuse trued up straight. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:02 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? I have my fuse sides done! http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietfuse3.jpg And I was wondering if there is any great trick to use to cut the "wedge" out at the tail post where they join? -Scott href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:36 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: High density altitude airport Of course it would. You need the two plane's areas before you can calculate loadings. And loading depends on the gross weight of each aircraft. Notice I did not say maximum gross. Since you've got access to a 150 why not measure the wing next time you're out and go from there? At this point we know that we have a heavier AC with 80 HP minus age and density factors against a lighter one with 100 HP minus the same factors. We have a pretty good idea of the wing size of the Piet, depending on any changes you might or might not decide to make. Now we need the wing area of the 150 after which we can begin making comparisons. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:19 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: High density altitude airport Would think that wing loading would be more relevent than wing area. Rick On 11/21/06, Clif Dawson wrote: Don't forget the difference in wing area. And don't forget, that 100 hp Lyc or Continental started out life at the factory door with only 80 true horsepower. Put those two together and what do you get? Clif Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: High density altitude airport My airport is at 6840, over 10,000 density altitude on a hot day. Am going with a Corvair (100 HP), will let you know if it's enough. I have flown 150s (also 100 HP and 1000lbs empty weight) many times with a passenger from similiar altitude airports and did ok so it should be enough. Rick www.aeroelectric.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 11/23/2006 3:22 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.