Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:02 AM - White Ash substitution check (Scott Schreiber)
2. 06:26 AM - Re: White Ash substitution check (walt evans)
3. 07:34 AM - Re: White Ash substitution check (Scott Schreiber)
4. 08:16 AM - Re: White Ash substitution check (Kip and Beth Gardner)
5. 08:24 AM - Re: White Ash substitution check (Dennis Engelkenjohn)
6. 08:32 AM - Re: White Ash substitution check (Isablcorky@aol.com)
7. 11:01 AM - Re: White Ash substitution check (Alan Lyscars)
8. 01:03 PM - Re: White Ash substitution check (Graham Hansen)
9. 02:39 PM - Re: heavy piet (Phillips, Jack)
10. 08:58 PM - Re: White Ash substitution check (SSchof4277@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | White Ash substitution check |
Failing to find white ash for the two xmembers I checked with a few wood
working friends and they suggested Poplar and Aspen as equivalent woods.
I was able to find both 3/4 x 3 and 1/4 x 3 Aspen locally and it is
clean knot free quality wood. I am inclined to laminate 3 1/4x3 lengths
to get a nice strong piece, probably overkill but not allot of effort.
Does anyone know of a compelling reason not to use Aspen, laminated or
single piece?
And let me say again, this group is great.
-Scott
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: White Ash substitution check |
Scott,
I'm no wood expert, but I do know that ash is tough as hell (axe handles
baseball bats) and poplar is a very soft wood.
I used a scrap piece of ash as tool to bend my fittings over a mandrel.
Hitting the piece with a hammer, the top only mushroomed, never split.
I would think that oak, red/white, or maple would (no pun) be better
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:01 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
Failing to find white ash for the two xmembers I checked with a few
wood working friends and they suggested Poplar and Aspen as equivalent
woods. I was able to find both 3/4 x 3 and 1/4 x 3 Aspen locally and it
is clean knot free quality wood. I am inclined to laminate 3 1/4x3
lengths to get a nice strong piece, probably overkill but not allot of
effort. Does anyone know of a compelling reason not to use Aspen,
laminated or single piece?
And let me say again, this group is great.
-Scott
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: White Ash substitution check |
Oak is available here as well, and I looked at it but it seemed prone to
breaking, a blade like effect. Poplar did seem softer than Aspen.
-Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: walt evans
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
Scott,
I'm no wood expert, but I do know that ash is tough as hell (axe
handles baseball bats) and poplar is a very soft wood.
I used a scrap piece of ash as tool to bend my fittings over a
mandrel. Hitting the piece with a hammer, the top only mushroomed, never
split.
I would think that oak, red/white, or maple would (no pun) be better
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:01 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
Failing to find white ash for the two xmembers I checked with a few
wood working friends and they suggested Poplar and Aspen as equivalent
woods. I was able to find both 3/4 x 3 and 1/4 x 3 Aspen locally and it
is clean knot free quality wood. I am inclined to laminate 3 1/4x3
lengths to get a nice strong piece, probably overkill but not allot of
effort. Does anyone know of a compelling reason not to use Aspen,
laminated or single piece?
And let me say again, this group is great.
-Scott
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: White Ash substitution check |
Scott,
Neither Aspen or Poplar are suitable substitutes for Ash, they are
far weaker, and in spite of being from deciduous trees (as opposed to
evergreens), they are considered softwoods by the timber industry.
Mature Aspen, particularly, has very little tensile strength & is
prone to sudden failure (I know this from bitter experience, having
nearly been killed when I was 8 from climbing a large aspen & having
a branch break suddenly). Aspen is not really considered a structural
wood at all, although it has a very pleasant "clear", light, and
smooth apperarance that makes it good for cabinets, etc.
If I had to choose between oak and maple as a substitute, I'd go with
the maple, it's more uniform in density & grain & tougher. Just be
sure you get ROCK maple, which comes from a harder/denser species of
maple - there are also soft maples like Red Maple & Silver Maple
that would NOT be suitable. Some tropical hardwoods may have similar
properties of strength and toughness as Ash, but I'm no expert on
those.
It occurs to me that one place you might check is YUKON LUMBER CO. in
Norfolk, VA. Sorry, I don't have a number, but when I lived there,
they were they experts on various types of lumber from around the
world & stocked an amazing variety of common & exotic woods.
All that said however, I think you should look around more for ash -
there is really no GOOD substitute & I'm sure you can find it on
line, if nowhere else.
Everyone on the list should also be aware that ash is going to
become increasingly scarce in the future. There is a nasty insect
that came here from Asia about 8-10 years ago (most likely in a load
of Chinese-made pallets sent to Detroit) called the Emerald Ash
Borer. It has infected huge numbers of trees in Michigan & is now
spreading into Ohio. No known pesticide can kill it & it is 100%
fatal to Ash trees. Here in Ohio, a friend of mine at the Ag Research
Center is in charge of the State effort to find a control & so far
his team is batting zero. Privately, he says that there is no hope
for controlling this pest & that eventually Ash trees will go the way
of the chestnuts & dutch elms, probably in 10-15 years.
In the meantime, there MAY be a glut of Ash on the market in the next
couple of years as timber folks selectively cut ash as salvage lumber
to get ahead of the borers. Once an area is infected, the current
tactic is total quarantine, with no shipment of young trees, firewood
or lumber allowed out of that area, so there is some incentive to cut
before an area goes that way. So get it while you can.
Just a little more wonderful news to make everyone's day....
Kip Gardner
At 10:34 AM -0500 11/26/06, Scott Schreiber wrote:
>Oak is available here as well, and I looked at it but it seemed
>prone to breaking, a blade like effect. Poplar did seem softer than
>Aspen.
>
> -Scott
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:waltdak@verizon.net>walt evans
>To: <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:26 AM
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
>
>Scott,
>I'm no wood expert, but I do know that ash is tough as hell (axe
>handles baseball bats) and poplar is a very soft wood.
>I used a scrap piece of ash as tool to bend my fittings over a
>mandrel. Hitting the piece with a hammer, the top only mushroomed,
>never split.
>I would think that oak, red/white, or maple would (no pun) be better
>walt evans
>NX140DL
--
North Canton, OH
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: White Ash substitution check |
I bought my ash from Wicks. It isn't listed in the aircraft supply
catalog. Had to call the Wicks Organ company, their sister company and
they had it and cut to the thickness in the plans. Wasn't expensive.
Don't know if they still carry it, but don't know why not.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
Oak is available here as well, and I looked at it but it seemed prone
to breaking, a blade like effect. Poplar did seem softer than Aspen.
-Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: walt evans
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
Scott,
I'm no wood expert, but I do know that ash is tough as hell (axe
handles baseball bats) and poplar is a very soft wood.
I used a scrap piece of ash as tool to bend my fittings over a
mandrel. Hitting the piece with a hammer, the top only mushroomed, never
split.
I would think that oak, red/white, or maple would (no pun) be better
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:01 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
Failing to find white ash for the two xmembers I checked with a
few wood working friends and they suggested Poplar and Aspen as
equivalent woods. I was able to find both 3/4 x 3 and 1/4 x 3 Aspen
locally and it is clean knot free quality wood. I am inclined to
laminate 3 1/4x3 lengths to get a nice strong piece, probably overkill
but not allot of effort. Does anyone know of a compelling reason not to
use Aspen, laminated or single piece?
And let me say again, this group is great.
-Scott
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: White Ash substitution check |
I can get you the ash pieces needed for the plans pietenpol. Will cut a bit
longer for surety. Give me a full name, address and phone.
Nathan (Corky's buddy)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: White Ash substitution check |
And remember, guys, ash was used for the frame on many a Morgan
production sports car.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Engelkenjohn
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
I bought my ash from Wicks. It isn't listed in the aircraft supply
catalog. Had to call the Wicks Organ company, their sister company and
they had it and cut to the thickness in the plans. Wasn't expensive.
Don't know if they still carry it, but don't know why not.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
Oak is available here as well, and I looked at it but it seemed
prone to breaking, a blade like effect. Poplar did seem softer than
Aspen.
-Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: walt evans
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
Scott,
I'm no wood expert, but I do know that ash is tough as hell (axe
handles baseball bats) and poplar is a very soft wood.
I used a scrap piece of ash as tool to bend my fittings over a
mandrel. Hitting the piece with a hammer, the top only mushroomed, never
split.
I would think that oak, red/white, or maple would (no pun) be
better
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from
you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:01 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: White Ash substitution check
Failing to find white ash for the two xmembers I checked with a
few wood working friends and they suggested Poplar and Aspen as
equivalent woods. I was able to find both 3/4 x 3 and 1/4 x 3 Aspen
locally and it is clean knot free quality wood. I am inclined to
laminate 3 1/4x3 lengths to get a nice strong piece, probably overkill
but not allot of effort. Does anyone know of a compelling reason not to
use Aspen, laminated or single piece?
And let me say again, this group is great.
-Scott
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href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: White Ash substitution check |
When I built my Pietenpol, I couldn't find White Ash of the quality and
size I needed. My fellow teacher, who was a real expert on woods,
suggested either Birch or Oak as suitable substitutes.
I opted for Oak because it was less prone to rotting. Birch tends to
stain and rot rather easily, but is really strong (illustrated by its
use in wooden propellers). Oak was used for centuries in wooden ships
and it is strong!
The two Oak cross pieces on the floor of my Pietenpol are as sound as
they were when I installed them over 36 years ago. Of course, they were
well-protected by several coats of urethane varnish and the a/c has been
hangared most of its life. My ol' Piet has literally thousands of
takeoffs and landings from really rough fields, and I think a steel
fitting would have broken long before the Oak crosspieces suffered any
damage.
White Ash is the preferred wood for this application, but in my
experience Oak is a reasonable substitute. Do not, however, use Poplar
or Aspen for these members (I have used it for violin backs and it is
nice to carve, but it cannot compete with Ash, Oak or Birch for
strength).
Whatever wood you use, always use the selection criteria for aircraft
quality wood.
Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN in chilly Alberta)
Message 9
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A brand new 65 hp Continental. It's not the engine, it's the weight.
745 is too heavy for a Piet. Some of that is in the straight axle (21
lbs), some in the wire wheels, (probably 20 lbs apiece), a lot is in the
polyurethane paint (probably 60 lbs), but some is in the wider fuselage.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gardiner
Mason
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 6:39 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet
What kind of engine did Jack phillips use to get that poor
performance? I am building the long f uselage and 2 inches wider with a
corvair engine. I don't expect it to be a rocket, but it should do
better than he described. I have a cessna 140 with a C90 and with 1450
max gross it climbs at 600fpm. Gardiner Mason
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: White Ash substitution check |
I haven't used this Company, so I can't vouch for their service...but it
appears you can order small quantities. It's worth a shot. Here's the
link...http://www.bristolvalley.com/catalog.asp?prodid=293392&showprevnext=1
Steve Schofield
Vero Beach, Florida
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