---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/30/06: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:25 AM - Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! (Matt Dralle) 1. 03:47 AM - Re: Gorilla Glue (last post) () 2. 05:07 AM - Icarus Plummet axle failure (HelsperSew@aol.com) 3. 05:57 AM - Re: Icarus Plummet axle failure (Phillips, Jack) 4. 07:14 AM - Re: heavy piet Lexan bending (Dick Navratil) 5. 07:22 AM - Re: Fuse questions... (Dick Navratil) 6. 07:28 AM - Re: heavy piet Lexan bending () 7. 08:17 AM - Re: heavy piet (Phillips, Jack) 8. 08:53 AM - Re: heavy piet Lexan bending (Jack T. Textor) 9. 09:27 AM - Re: heavy piet Lexan bending (Steve Glass) 10. 09:39 AM - Re: heavy piet Lexan bending () 11. 11:55 AM - Re: wing ribs (amsafetyc@aol.com) 12. 12:03 PM - Lexan bending (Oscar Zuniga) 13. 12:14 PM - Re: heavy piet Lexan bending (Roman Bukolt) 14. 12:16 PM - Re: Lexan bending (Phillips, Jack) 15. 12:51 PM - room temp bending of Lexan (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 16. 12:58 PM - Re: Lexan bending (Jdavis2a@wmconnect.com) 17. 01:14 PM - Re: room temp bending of Lexan (Jack T. Textor) 18. 01:53 PM - Re: wing ribs (Kirk, Bruce) 19. 02:49 PM - Re: T-88 vs. resorcinol (Dale Johnson) 20. 02:53 PM - Re: heavy piet Lexan bending (Rcaprd@aol.com) 21. 02:55 PM - Re: wing ribs (Rcaprd@aol.com) 22. 05:16 PM - Re: Icarus Plummet axle failure (gcardinal) 23. 07:38 PM - Lexan bending (Oscar Zuniga) 24. 07:51 PM - Re: Is a firewall necessary? (Gene Hubbard) 25. 07:53 PM - Re: Fuse questions... (Gene Hubbard) 26. 08:01 PM - Re: Lexan bending (Gene Hubbard) 27. 08:04 PM - Re: wing ribs (Gene Hubbard) 28. 09:49 PM - Re: Fuse questions... (Clif Dawson) 29. 10:19 PM - Re: Lexan bending (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:21 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! Dear Listers, Well, its November 30th and that means three things... 1) Today I am now officially 43 years old... (arg...) 2) It marks that last "official" day of the List Fund Raiser! 3) Its the last day I will be bugging everyone for a whole year! :-) If you use the Lists and enjoy the content and the no-advertising, no-spam, and no-censorship way in which they're run, please make a Contribution today to support their continued operation and upkeep. Your $20 or $30 goes a long way to further the List operation and keep the bills paid. I will be posting the List of Contributors next week, so make sure your name is on it! :-) Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this year! It is greatly appreciated. List Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:43 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Gorilla Glue (last post) From: That might work on the velcrove that keeps coming off that holds my GPS unit. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: November 29, 2006 10:07 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gorilla Glue (last post) I did use Gorilla Glue (my hangar mate's, not mine) on one place on 41CC and it was an excellent application. I fabricated new metal straps to support the fuel tank from the X-members ahead of the passenger's panel and needed to reattach the strips of felt padding that came off the old straps. Gorilla Glue! The felt is very coarse and porous and would have required gobbing on any other glue, but I simply dampened the felt, applied Gorilla Glue, and clamped the felt to the metal straps with some clothespins, knowing that the glue would foam up into the felt and make it grab. It did. Like I said, it does have a place and this is one. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId00,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 060 1&tcode=wlmtagline ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:59 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet axle failure Jack, I went back in the archives and read your account of the .120 wall thickness axle failure. Mike Cuy commented at that time his axle was ".20 to .250" wall thickness. I went back and looked at the F & G manual, and BHP said to use 12 gauge chrome moly tube, which equates to only .109" wall thickness. I wonder if your axle failure was more a function of the welded guide tube (cracks) than it was wall thickness of the axle. I am thinking I will stick to the .120 tube and get it magna-fluxed after I weld on the guide tubes. I will not drill through the axle, but just weld the guide tubes on the bottom. Comments? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet axle failure From: "Phillips, Jack" The stress analysis I did indicates that a .120" axle will fail at a load of 2.1 g's (assuming 1150 lbs gross weight). That did not take into account any stress concentrations due to the welding or holes. As long as you can guarentee you will never make a hard landing, it should be fine. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:07 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet axle failure Jack, I went back in the archives and read your account of the .120 wall thickness axle failure. Mike Cuy commented at that time his axle was ".20 to .250" wall thickness. I went back and looked at the F & G manual, and BHP said to use 12 gauge chrome moly tube, which equates to only .109" wall thickness. I wonder if your axle failure was more a function of the welded guide tube (cracks) than it was wall thickness of the axle. I am thinking I will stick to the .120 tube and get it magna-fluxed after I weld on the guide tubes. I will not drill through the axle, but just weld the guide tubes on the bottom. Comments? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:10 AM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending MessageGene Bending Lexan is rather easy. You will need a large size oven and an understanding wife. Try the oven at about 225-250 deg. Don't set the Lexan on any metal surfaces, it will leave marks. Cover surface with paper, like a grogery bag. Try test peices first for timing. After 10+/- min. it will soften. Dick N ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene & Tammy To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Jack, Did you ever figure out the problem with the engine? Also, as a side note, do you know how a person can bend angles into Lexan? N502R has windshilds made from tinted Lexan. I need to remake them in clear, as looking thru two tinted windshilds (one in front of the other) makes it hard to see things like towers and wires on a cloudy day. Rather than being rounded, my windshilds are straight in the middle with the sides at about 45 degrees. Thanks Gene _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ectric.com ">www.buildersbooks.com og.com builthelp.com ..matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:23 AM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... Roman I was faced with the same thing, but instead of dead weight, I added a battery on the firewall. I powers a belly strobe and my VHF and GPS. I never worry about running out of power in flight. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Bukolt" Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... > > > And I have a 35 lb. lead weight bolted to the top of my A-65 because this > Piet was originally designed for a Corvair engine. > Roman Bukolt. > Actually with the added dead weight it now weighs 35lbs. more, empty, and > mine is a long fuselage and a three piece wing spanning 30ft 5 ins. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hans Vander Voort" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:03 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... > > >> >> >> Just to compare. >> >> My Pietenpol, long fuse with a Corvair, split landing gear, three piece >> wing and poly fiber covering weights empty at 680 Lbs. >> No deviations from the plans other than longer Cabane struts (2 inch), >> center section cut out (no flop) and piano hinge ailerons >> >> That makes it only 4 Lbs heavier than Roman's steel tube fuselage with a >> similar setup. >> >> Oh....and I have an electric starter and battery on board. >> >> >> Hans >> >> NX15KV >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending From: As you can see from my windows,they are sectionalized using aluminum joints.Kind of gives it that retro look.I painted them black for extra effect.My AME wanted me to change them to the lexan type that just curve around but I like this type better.Makes it look like it came out of the twenty's. ________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:25 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet From: "Phillips, Jack" Operator error. I had not been getting enough carb heat with my heat muff arrangement, so I had added a wad of stainless steel wool to increase the heat transfer area inside the heat muff. Tests indicated the steel wool was secure, and I had flown with it for about 5 hours with no problems. However, in all previous flights I had only turned carb heat on just before going to idle power. On this flight, I was picking up carb ice in level flight, so I turned the carb heat on and continued to run the engine at cruise power or higher. The constant suction from the carburetor was sufficient to suck the stainless steel wook through a very small orifice and into the throat of the carburetor, where it choked the engine to the point that it would only put out about 1200 RPM. The good news was, when I pulled the carb after the incident, all the steel wool was still in the throat of the carb, and none of it got into the engine. Needless to say, during the rebuild the heat muffs received a lot of attention. BTW, the FAA was very good to work with throughout the whole experience. They wanted a report when I figured out the cause of the engine failure. Once I sent them that (with pictures) they were satisfied, and congratulated me on the landing (and on not hurting anyone). No repercussions. I had heard horror stories about what they would do to you if you landed on a highway. I was glad I was alone, with a current medical and BFR, and was well within the box they had asigned for my testing (it was within the 25 hour test phase - the plane only had 7 hours on it at the time). Jack NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pietsrneat@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:43 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet In a message dated 11/29/2006 3:10:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com writes: By the time I got the plane rebuilt and was ready to re-shoot thephotos, Private Pilot was no longer in business. The author/photographer that was doing the story now writes freelance for AOPA Pilot. He's trying to get some interest there for the story, but they are much less interested in homebuilts. Jack And what was the story on the engine? _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:40 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending From: "Jack T. Textor" Holy cow what a control stick! Jack Textor As you can see from my windows,they are sectionalized using aluminum joints.Kind of gives it that retro look.I painted them black for extra effect.My AME wanted me to change them to the lexan type that just curve around but I like this type better.Makes it look like it came out of the twenty's. ________________________________ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:39 AM PST US From: "Steve Glass" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending Hi Gene If you just want to bend the lexan in a straight line, rather than form it, you could do it with a strip heater. An old oven element would be enough as I would think you are not talking much more than about 12". I would suggest getting some offcuts and experimenting. A heat gun would also do the job. You could clamp some plywood to each side of the bend and just leave 1/2" exposed. Heat till soft and bend to a set angle let cool and do the other side. Best regards Steve in maine >From: "Dick Navratil" >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:13:32 -0600 > >MessageGene >Bending Lexan is rather easy. You will need a large size oven and an >understanding wife. Try the oven at about 225-250 deg. Don't set the >Lexan on any metal surfaces, it will leave marks. Cover surface with >paper, like a grogery bag. Try test peices first for timing. After 10+/- >min. it will soften. >Dick N > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gene & Tammy > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:00 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet > > > Jack, > Did you ever figure out the problem with the engine? > Also, as a side note, do you know how a person can bend angles into >Lexan? N502R has windshilds made from tinted Lexan. I need to remake them >in clear, as looking thru two tinted windshilds (one in front of the other) >makes it hard to see things like towers and wires on a cloudy day. Rather >than being rounded, my windshilds are straight in the middle with the sides >at about 45 degrees. > Thanks > Gene > > >_________________________________________________ > >This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain >privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have >received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete >Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N > >href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com >href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com >href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com >href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > >ectric.com >">www.buildersbooks.com >og.com >builthelp.com >..matronics.com/contribution >">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > >_________________________________________________ > >This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain >privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have >received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete >Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N > >href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com >href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com >href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com >href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId00,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0601&tcode=wlmtagline ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending From: That was just there temporarily.My AME let me use a stick he had.We wanted to see how a curved stick would do.I installed a straight stick later that just misses the instrument panel by an inch.The curved stick,only shorter would have gotten in the way(stuck in my belly etc.). Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack T. Textor Sent: November 30, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending Holy cow what a control stick! Jack Textor As you can see from my windows,they are sectionalized using aluminum joints.Kind of gives it that retro look.I painted them black for extra effect.My AME wanted me to change them to the lexan type that just curve around but I like this type better.Makes it look like it came out of the twenty's. ________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing ribs From: amsafetyc@aol.com Has anyone attempted to use a plywood wing rib, cut from plywood sheet material rather than a built up rib, if so what were the results in terms of strength and weight? Is there a wing stress chart available, something that illustrates the stress values at specific wing locations? Thanks for your help John -----Original Message----- From: Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com Sent: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 8:56 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet axle failure The stress analysis I did indicates that a .120" axle will fail at a load of 2.1 g's (assuming 1150 lbs gross weight). That did not take into account any stress concentrations due to the welding or holes. As long as you can guarentee you will never make a hard landing, it should be fine. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:07 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet axle failure Jack, I went back in the archives and read your account of the .120 wall thickness axle failure. Mike Cuy commented at that time his axle was ".20 to .250" wall thickness. I went back and looked at the F & G manual, and BHP said to use 12 gauge chrome moly tube, which equates to only .109" wall thickness. I wonder if your axle failure was more a function of the welded guide tube (cracks) than it was wall thickness of the axle. I am thinking I will stick to the .120 tube and get it magna-fluxed after I weld on the guide tubes. I will not drill through the axle, but just weld the guide tubes on the bottom. Comments? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ectric.com ">www.buildersbooks.com og.com builthelp.com .matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List _________________________________________________ Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:57 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lexan bending My understanding was that Lexan (polycarbonate) could be bent without using heat or anything else, just like sheet metal in a brake or around a form, especially thinner stuff, and it would not break. Incorrect? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:41 PM PST US From: "Roman Bukolt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending MessageLexan which is polycarbonate can be cold formed, unlike acrylic A.K.A Plexiglas. I've built many machine guards when I worked at Oscar Mayer out of Lexan. Needless to say you have to way overbend because of spring back but it can be done. I've found that heating with a heat gun can be touchy because before you know it you might have heated too much and get distortion in the bend. Roman Bukolt NX 20795 ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending Gene Bending Lexan is rather easy. You will need a large size oven and an understanding wife. Try the oven at about 225-250 deg. Don't set the Lexan on any metal surfaces, it will leave marks. Cover surface with paper, like a grogery bag. Try test peices first for timing. After 10+/- min. it will soften. Dick N ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene & Tammy To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Jack, Did you ever figure out the problem with the engine? Also, as a side note, do you know how a person can bend angles into Lexan? N502R has windshilds made from tinted Lexan. I need to remake them in clear, as looking thru two tinted windshilds (one in front of the other) makes it hard to see things like towers and wires on a cloudy day. Rather than being rounded, my windshilds are straight in the middle with the sides at about 45 degrees. Thanks Gene _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ectric.com ">www.buildersbooks.com og.com builthelp.com ..matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Lexan bending From: "Phillips, Jack" You can bend it, but at the bend it will turn white. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lexan bending --> My understanding was that Lexan (polycarbonate) could be bent without using heat or anything else, just like sheet metal in a brake or around a form, especially thinner stuff, and it would not break. Incorrect? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:00 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: room temp bending of Lexan From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Oscar-- I bent my windshields without heat-- they are Lexan and held in place with three aluminum brackets. I cut the Lexan with a sabre saw, filed the edges with a metal file, then sanded them smoother and drilled, using a regular drill bit, the holes. I ran a de-burr or counter sink by hand on the three drill holes (each side) to help prevent any stress risers. Plexi is the bear to work with and will break if not warm bent. Bingelis explains the whole thing in his books--what you can do with each type of plastic. Mike ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:54 PM PST US From: Jdavis2a@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Lexan bending I bent my windshields cold in a homemade brake. I used 3/16 material. The other two piets on the field did theirs the same way. Seems to work fine. Mine have ben on the plane since 1995 with no cracking or crazing. Jim ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: room temp bending of Lexan From: "Jack T. Textor" Mike, I don't recall seeing the? Leather ? behind your cockpit, is that new? Jack Textor Oscar-- I bent my windshields without heat-- they are Lexan and held in place with three aluminum brackets. I cut the Lexan with a sabre saw, filed the edges with a metal file, then sanded them smoother and drilled, using a regular drill bit, the holes. I ran a de-burr or counter sink by hand on the three drill holes (each side) to help prevent any stress risers. Plexi is the bear to work with and will break if not warm bent. Bingelis explains the whole thing in his books--what you can do with each type of plastic. Mike ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:37 PM PST US From: "Kirk, Bruce" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing ribs John Look at the Bowers Flybaby, it uses plywood ribs. The conclusion from what I looked into is that the Plywood rib is much heavier than that of the traditional builtup rib. A rib that is lighter than that of the traditional method is one that I believe was incorporated in the Longster of the 1930's. It uses no gussets and two cap strips on top of the rib and two on the bottom with the cross members sandwiched in between. Bruce ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:06 PM PST US From: "Dale Johnson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 vs. resorcinol Gary Are you sure it was caseine glue and not hide glue. Most furniture used hide glue and still do. Put it in a heat pot and spread it on. Dale ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower Sent: 11/29/2006 3:18:43 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 vs. resorcinol Just a short comment, Lets remember that some of the old airplanes (some still flying) were glued with pre resorcinol ot T-88 glues, like Caseine glue and few are still flying or in museums in perfect shape. I have a few family furniture bonded with Caseine Glue that is in better shape that the newer with modern glues... Barnishing and mantainance is very important will prevent any wood around the joint to fail for moisture, the glue will be perfect but the wood around could fail... like an old barn roof. Good inspection every year to all wood, wood joints and ply is important for a sound (wood) airplane. Dont forget proper installed dain holes and some venting. Saludos Gary Gower Oscar Zuniga wrote: Good grief, Jack-! Are you planning to fly your Piet through 24 hours of boiling water? Icarus will certainly plummet! This is one discussion that will never end, as long as there are taverns, hangars, and pilots. Less filling or more taste? T-88 or resorcinol? I'll settle for T-88, having used it and found that its qualities are very endearing... workable in temps down into the 50s, not fussy about proportioning, nice gap filling, dries clear, readily available, quick curing, will bond dissimilar materials, and well documented in aviation use for a long time. But, I do not plan to fly through boiling water, ever ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:14 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: heavy piet Lexan bending In a message dated 11/30/2006 2:16:46 PM Central Standard Time, conceptmodels@tds.net writes: Lexan which is polycarbonate can be cold formed, unlike acrylic A.K.A Plexiglas. One of the drawbacks with Lexan (polycarbonate) is that if fuel comes in contact with it, it will stress crack it. This happened to my first curved 1/8" Lexan windshield, after I overfilled the cowling tank in flight. It had many cracks around the three mounting points, but it never did break. It took several days, or weeks, before the many little cracks showed up. 1/8" curved Lexan (no heat required), with three mount points, is the simplest, lightest, toughest, and easiest to build...oh yeah...and it's to the plans, too. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:33 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing ribs In a message dated 11/30/2006 1:58:44 PM Central Standard Time, amsafetyc@aol.com writes: Has anyone attempted to use a plywood wing rib, cut from plywood sheet material rather than a built up rib, if so what were the results in terms of strength and weight? Plywood wing ribs are much heavier, and not all that much easier to build. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:36 PM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet axle failure MessageJack, Did adding brakes force you to use an axle that is longer than the F&G plans? NX18235 is brakeless and is using 1 1/2 X .120 tubing. I have made some horrifically hard landings at 1100 pounds with no sign of axle bending. Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet axle failure The stress analysis I did indicates that a .120" axle will fail at a load of 2.1 g's (assuming 1150 lbs gross weight). That did not take into account any stress concentrations due to the welding or holes. As long as you can guarentee you will never make a hard landing, it should be fine. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:07 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet axle failure Jack, I went back in the archives and read your account of the .120 wall thickness axle failure. Mike Cuy commented at that time his axle was ".20 to .250" wall thickness. I went back and looked at the F & G manual, and BHP said to use 12 gauge chrome moly tube, which equates to only .109" wall thickness. I wonder if your axle failure was more a function of the welded guide tube (cracks) than it was wall thickness of the axle. I am thinking I will stick to the .120 tube and get it magna-fluxed after I weld on the guide tubes. I will not drill through the axle, but just weld the guide tubes on the bottom. Comments? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ectric.com ">www.buildersbooks.com og.com builthelp.com .matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:41 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lexan bending Chuck wrote- >1/8" curved Lexan (no heat required), with three mount points, is the >simplest, lightest, toughest, and easiest to build...oh yeah...and it's to >the >plans, too. Now you know better than that, Chuck! There warn't no sich thing as polycarbo... parleycarbo...pollywhozis... you know what I mean (Lexan) back in 1932 so how could Lexan be "to the plans"? ;o) Corky built 41CC pretty darned close to what you describe (curved, 1/8" thick, one-piece acrylic) except it has five mounting points per windscreen rather than three. I just thought that if guys were going for the 3-panel rectilinear windscreen and were already going to use metal angles at the bends, they could bend the Lexan cold and cover the crazing or milky color with the metal anyway. Some pop rivets and you're done. There is something to be said for the 3-panel flat windscreen for that old-timey look, too. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId00,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0601&tcode=wlmtagline ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:04 PM PST US From: Gene Hubbard Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Is a firewall necessary? You won't get enough heat from an engine fire to sustain burning aluminum (it's also a component in solid rocket fuel), but aluminum melts at just over a thousand degrees. It doesn't give much protection after it drips out the bottom of your cowling... Waiting for authorization for my final inspection on NX421GN. Otherwise ready to fly. Gene Hubbard San Diego, CA harvey.rule@bell.ca wrote: > >At a certain heat temperature,of which I cannot remember,aluminum will >act like magnesium ignited and believe me you don't want that for a fire >wall.The English found this out in the Fuaklins War(not sure of spelling >here) when their ships burned quite quickly to the waterline. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans >Vander Voort >Sent: November 29, 2006 11:04 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Is a firewall necessary? > > > >Alan, > >Titanium is lighter than stainless, >More corrosion resistant than stainless > >But has a much higher thermal conductivity than stainless, almost the >same >as Aluminum. >Thus I would not recommend using it as the main objective of the >firewall >is insulation from heat not fire (the same reason we use fibrefrax) > >I work for a company that makes plate heat exchangers out of titanium, >excellent material for that duty. > >Hans > > > > > "Alan Lyscars" > > > r.com> >To > Sent by: > > owner-pietenpol-l >cc > ist-server@matron > > ics.com >Subject > Re: Pietenpol-List: Is a firewall > > necessary? > > 11/29/2006 09:13 > > AM > > > > > > Please respond to > > pietenpol-list@ma > > tronics.com > > > > > > >Chuck, > >An ole timer in our Chapter gave me a sheet of titanium more than large >enough for a firewall. Is it ok to use this metal compared to stainless >steel? > >Al in Portland Maine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rcaprd@aol.com > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Is a firewall necessary? > > In a message dated 11/28/2006 1:20:33 AM Central Standard Time, > HelsperSew@aol.com writes: > What are the opinions out there on this subject of firewalls? > Dan, > Yes, a Firewall is Definately necessary !! The only material that >should > be used for Firewalls, are either Stainless Steel, or the less >expensive > Galvanized steel. When I had the Model A on my Pietenpol, I used > Galvanized just up to the top edge of the face of the firewall, but not > into the shelf area. It would be very difficult to build enough > protection into the shelf area because there is so many inside corners >and > sides to protect. That would also cause a place for moisture to >collect. > For this reason, the Model A Pietenpol is a very difficult design to > protect from an engine fire. When I did the Firewall Forward retrofit >to > the Continental A65 engine, I used a full face - one piece Stainless >Steel > firewall, and backed it up with the thickest fiberglass matt (not >weave) I > could find which is about 1/16" thick. I think it's a good idea to >back > it up with FiberFrax (which is a Ceramic fiber), which is superior to > fiberglass...just have to be carefull not to compress the thickness of >the > FiberFrax. I'm using 1/8" FiberFrax behind the firewall on my >Tailwind. > Lynn Knoll and I did a flame test on the Fiberfax, and it simply will >Not > burn. > > Chuck G. > NX770CG > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ">http://www.matronics.com/chref=" > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:44 PM PST US From: Gene Hubbard Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... That's consistent with mine--663 lb with a C-75, split-axle gear, three piece wing, PolyFiber and long fuse. I have a flop panel, but didn't lengthen the cabanes. Battery, but no starter. Gene Hans Vander Voort wrote: > >Just to compare. > >My Pietenpol, long fuse with a Corvair, split landing gear, three piece >wing and poly fiber covering weights empty at 680 Lbs. >No deviations from the plans other than longer Cabane struts (2 inch), >center section cut out (no flop) and piano hinge ailerons > >That makes it only 4 Lbs heavier than Roman's steel tube fuselage with a >similar setup. > >Oh....and I have an electric starter and battery on board. > > >Hans > >NX15KV > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:30 PM PST US From: Gene Hubbard Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Lexan bending I bent mine cold, in a brake, and didn't get any craziing. I used single-weight lexan from home depot. Gene Phillips, Jack wrote: > >You can bend it, but at the bend it will turn white. > >Jack Phillips > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar >Zuniga >Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:04 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lexan bending > > >--> > >My understanding was that Lexan (polycarbonate) could be bent without >using >heat or anything else, just like sheet metal in a brake or around a >form, >especially thinner stuff, and it would not break. Incorrect? > >Oscar Zuniga >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > >_________________________________________________________________ >Fixing up the home? Live Search can help > > >_________________________________________________ > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:14 PM PST US From: Gene Hubbard Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing ribs Don't get spooked by the ribs. Build a jig, and every day, build a new rib. In a month, you'll be done. Everyone will complement you on your workmanship. Gene Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/30/2006 1:58:44 PM Central Standard Time, > amsafetyc@aol.com writes: > > Has anyone attempted to use a plywood wing rib, cut from plywood > sheet material rather than a built up rib, if so what were the > results in terms of strength and weight? > > Plywood wing ribs are much heavier, and not all that much easier to build. > > Chuck G. > NX770CG > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:19 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... There's all kinds of things you could put in the nose. What about that tool roll I know you're all carrying around. It's ballast until you need it for something else. If you do have to add ballast how about a lead ring on the engine just behind the prop hub or a lead button hub on the prop like you see on some Tigermoths. The farther out, the lighter. You could also seal the tail feathers and the dead area behind the bellcrank and fill them with helium. Granted it might be easier to stop eating lunch. Hmmm, no, I think I'll go with the helium. :-) Clif Mister Corky, what's that syringe for? Go way kid, I have to fill all these ping pong balls with helium. > > > Roman > I was faced with the same thing, but instead of dead weight, I added a > battery on the firewall. I powers a belly strobe and my VHF and GPS. I > never worry about running out of power in flight. > Dick N. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:43 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Lexan bending In a message dated 11/30/2006 9:40:31 PM Central Standard Time, taildrags@hotmail.com writes: Now you know better than that, Chuck! There warn't no sich thing as polycarbo... parleycarbo...pollywhozis... you know what I mean (Lexan) back in 1932 so how could Lexan be "to the plans"? ;o) Ah, yes...ya caught me, Oscar !! Back then they must have called the clear plastic - 'Parilin'. At least that's what he called out for the clear inspection cover on the bottom of the wing, to see the two pulleys just ahead of the aileron horns. However, I think the Parilin was closer in characteristics to Plexi-glass, than Lexan. Chuck G. 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