---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/01/06: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:02 AM - Re: Is a firewall necessary? () 2. 05:52 AM - Leather behind the cockpit (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 3. 06:41 AM - Re: wing ribs (Rick Holland) 4. 06:52 AM - Re: Fuse questions... (Rick Holland) 5. 07:57 AM - Re: Fuse questions... (Hans Vander Voort) 6. 08:07 AM - Re: wing ribs (amsafetyc@aol.com) 7. 08:44 AM - Re: Fuse questions... () 8. 09:50 AM - Re: Fuse questions... (Rick Holland) 9. 10:03 AM - Light weight Pietenpol (Bill Church) 10. 10:09 AM - Re: Fuse questions... (Hans Vander Voort) 11. 11:14 AM - Re: Light weight Pietenpol (Jack T. Textor) 12. 11:40 AM - Re: Light weight Pietenpol (DJ Vegh) 13. 11:44 AM - meeting owners (Marshall Lumsden) 14. 11:49 AM - carb heat/steel wool/road landing (Tim Verthein) 15. 12:10 PM - Re: Light weight Pietenpol (Jack T. Textor) 16. 12:14 PM - Re: carb heat/steel wool/road landing (Gene & Tammy) 17. 12:48 PM - road landing (Oscar Zuniga) 18. 01:00 PM - Re: road landing (Phillips, Jack) 19. 01:09 PM - Re: meeting owners (Dave Abramson) 20. 01:29 PM - Re: meeting owners (Marshall Lumsden) 21. 01:39 PM - Re: road landing (walt evans) 22. 01:54 PM - Piet. propeller (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 23. 02:42 PM - Re: Piet. propeller (Dale Johnson) 24. 02:49 PM - Re: meeting owners (Dave Abramson) 25. 02:59 PM - Re: Piet. cables (Wizzard187@aol.com) 26. 04:57 PM - Re: Piet. propeller (Dick Navratil) 27. 05:11 PM - Re: Piet. cables (Dick Navratil) 28. 07:58 PM - Re: T-88 vs. resorcinol (Gary Gower) 29. 11:31 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 30. 11:35 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:00 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Is a firewall necessary? From: I knew the temp was high but I didn't know it was that high.Hell if the fire did get that hot you'd just be a ball of fire hurtling across the sky anyway.Flame on brother!A Pietenpol hurtling;right!(sarcasm here)(not exactly a shuttle craft is it?) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Hubbard Sent: November 30, 2006 10:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Is a firewall necessary? You won't get enough heat from an engine fire to sustain burning aluminum (it's also a component in solid rocket fuel), but aluminum melts at just over a thousand degrees. It doesn't give much protection after it drips out the bottom of your cowling... Waiting for authorization for my final inspection on NX421GN. Otherwise ready to fly. Gene Hubbard San Diego, CA harvey.rule@bell.ca wrote: > >At a certain heat temperature,of which I cannot remember,aluminum will >act like magnesium ignited and believe me you don't want that for a fire >wall.The English found this out in the Fuaklins War(not sure of spelling >here) when their ships burned quite quickly to the waterline. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans >Vander Voort >Sent: November 29, 2006 11:04 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Is a firewall necessary? > > > >Alan, > >Titanium is lighter than stainless, >More corrosion resistant than stainless > >But has a much higher thermal conductivity than stainless, almost the >same >as Aluminum. >Thus I would not recommend using it as the main objective of the >firewall >is insulation from heat not fire (the same reason we use fibrefrax) > >I work for a company that makes plate heat exchangers out of titanium, >excellent material for that duty. > >Hans > > > > > "Alan Lyscars" > > > r.com> >To > Sent by: > > owner-pietenpol-l >cc > ist-server@matron > > ics.com >Subject > Re: Pietenpol-List: Is a firewall > > necessary? > > 11/29/2006 09:13 > > AM > > > > > > Please respond to > > pietenpol-list@ma > > tronics.com > > > > > > >Chuck, > >An ole timer in our Chapter gave me a sheet of titanium more than large >enough for a firewall. Is it ok to use this metal compared to stainless >steel? > >Al in Portland Maine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rcaprd@aol.com > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Is a firewall necessary? > > In a message dated 11/28/2006 1:20:33 AM Central Standard Time, > HelsperSew@aol.com writes: > What are the opinions out there on this subject of firewalls? > Dan, > Yes, a Firewall is Definately necessary !! The only material that >should > be used for Firewalls, are either Stainless Steel, or the less >expensive > Galvanized steel. When I had the Model A on my Pietenpol, I used > Galvanized just up to the top edge of the face of the firewall, but not > into the shelf area. It would be very difficult to build enough > protection into the shelf area because there is so many inside corners >and > sides to protect. That would also cause a place for moisture to >collect. > For this reason, the Model A Pietenpol is a very difficult design to > protect from an engine fire. When I did the Firewall Forward retrofit >to > the Continental A65 engine, I used a full face - one piece Stainless >Steel > firewall, and backed it up with the thickest fiberglass matt (not >weave) I > could find which is about 1/16" thick. I think it's a good idea to >back > it up with FiberFrax (which is a Ceramic fiber), which is superior to > fiberglass...just have to be carefull not to compress the thickness of >the > FiberFrax. I'm using 1/8" FiberFrax behind the firewall on my >Tailwind. > Lynn Knoll and I did a flame test on the Fiberfax, and it simply will >Not > burn. > > Chuck G. > NX770CG > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ">http://www.matronics.com/chref=" > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:06 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leather behind the cockpit From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Jack-- I had to put that leather on because I was in too much of a hurry and didn't think I should use finishing tapes over the stringers on my turtle deck. Not good. With the 1.8 oz dacron I used getting in and out of the cockpit rubbed those a bit raw atop my turtle deck and before too long I had worn a tear in my fabric so I covered the entire affair with a contact cement backed leather surface. Worked out well and didn't take away too much from the looks I don't think. Note to self: use finishing tapes on all corners, underlying wood members that touch the fabric. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:32 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing ribs And even if it takes two months to finish the ribs it really isn't slowing down progress. There are a thousand other things you can be building in parallel while you are waiting for the glue to set on your rib in the rib jig. I would glue one together every day before going to work, then take it out, turn it over and finish gluing the other side when I got home that night. Rick On 11/30/06, Gene Hubbard wrote: > > Don't get spooked by the ribs. Build a jig, and every day, build a new > rib. In a month, you'll be done. Everyone will complement you on your > workmanship. > > Gene > > Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/30/2006 1:58:44 PM Central Standard Time, > amsafetyc@aol.com writes: > > Has anyone attempted to use a plywood wing rib, cut from plywood sheet > material rather than a built up rib, if so what were the results in terms > of strength and weight? > > Plywood wing ribs are *much* heavier, and not all that much easier to > build. > > Chuck G. > NX770CG > > * > > * > > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:20 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... This gives me new hope that I can build my long fuselage Corvair at something under 700 lbs. Do you also have an altenator Hans? Or just recharge your battery in the hanger? Also, did you have to move your wing back to get your CG right? Thanks Rick On 11/29/06, Hans Vander Voort wrote: > > hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> > > Just to compare. > > My Pietenpol, long fuse with a Corvair, split landing gear, three piece > wing and poly fiber covering weights empty at 680 Lbs. > No deviations from the plans other than longer Cabane struts (2 inch), > center section cut out (no flop) and piano hinge ailerons > > That makes it only 4 Lbs heavier than Roman's steel tube fuselage with a > similar setup. > > Oh....and I have an electric starter and battery on board. > > > Hans > > NX15KV > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... From: Hans Vander Voort Rick, Yes, the John Deere that WW and Mark Langford suggest. The wing is moved back about 2" (cabanes leaning back). It (flies) (fly's) is flying slightly nose heavy. Probably should move the wing forward slightly 1/2" (1 1/2" leaning back) may be this winter. FYI, I did not take extreme measure to build light, simply build to the plans and weight should not be a problem. Hans. "Rick Holland" To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... 12/01/2006 08:52 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com This gives me new hope that I can build my long fuselage Corvair at something under 700 lbs. Do you also have an altenator Hans? Or just recharge your battery in the hanger? Also, did you have to move your wing back to get your CG right? Thanks Rick On 11/29/06, Hans Vander Voort wrote: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> Just to compare. My Pietenpol, long fuse with a Corvair, split landing gear, three piece wing and poly fiber covering weights empty at 680 Lbs. No deviations from the plans other than longer Cabane struts (2 inch), center section cut out (no flop) and piano hinge ailerons That makes it only 4 Lbs heavier than Roman's steel tube fuselage with a similar setup. Oh....and I have an electric starter and battery on board. -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing ribs From: amsafetyc@aol.com Not really spooked by the ribs, I was more considering the idea of weight and strength. From what I have read so far in my research is that the wing in over built. I was wondering if you could reduce the weight of the wing and maintain the same or similar strength with less wood from a thinner piece of plywood and having no glue joints to present potential sources of failure. The concept would be to use a router and saw to fashion the rib out of maybe 1/8 plywood if possible but leaving a bit more wood in the rib support cross member and joint areas at the stress points. With the idea of reducing the weight of the wings and possibly eliminating the need for gussets at the glue joints . While maintaining the utmost safety in the entire wing structure. >From what I have read it seems that there are not a lot of ways to increase the usable load so I was more considering the idea of weight reduction without sacrificing integrity or safety. Plus it makes for a great mental exercise to look at alternatives in construction materials and methods! John -----Original Message----- From: at7000ft@gmail.com Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 9:40 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing ribs And even if it takes two months to finish the ribs it really isn't slowing down progress. There are a thousand other things you can be building in parallel while you are waiting for the glue to set on your rib in the rib jig. I would glue one together every day before going to work, then take it out, turn it over and finish gluing the other side when I got home that night. Rick On 11/30/06, Gene Hubbard wrote: Don't get spooked by the ribs. Build a jig, and every day, build a new rib. In a month, you'll be done. Everyone will complement you on your workmanship. Gene Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 11/30/2006 1:58:44 PM Central Standard Time, amsafetyc@aol.com writes: Has anyone attempted to use a plywood wing rib, cut from plywood sheet material rather than a built up rib, if so what were the results in terms of strength and weight? Plywood wing ribs are much heavier, and not all that much easier to build. Chuck G. NX770CG www.aeroelectric.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... From: I remember seeing a biwing plane covered in clear mylar to save weight.See pic.One thing about this idea,you would be able to see anything that was broke inside.The problem with it is that mylar is really UV sensitive and after one season in the sun she would be brittle and easy to break. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Vander Voort Sent: December 1, 2006 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... Rick, Yes, the John Deere that WW and Mark Langford suggest. The wing is moved back about 2" (cabanes leaning back). It (flies) (fly's) is flying slightly nose heavy. Probably should move the wing forward slightly 1/2" (1 1/2" leaning back) may be this winter. FYI, I did not take extreme measure to build light, simply build to the plans and weight should not be a problem. Hans. "Rick Holland" To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... 12/01/2006 08:52 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com This gives me new hope that I can build my long fuselage Corvair at something under 700 lbs. Do you also have an altenator Hans? Or just recharge your battery in the hanger? Also, did you have to move your wing back to get your CG right? Thanks Rick On 11/29/06, Hans Vander Voort wrote: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> Just to compare. My Pietenpol, long fuse with a Corvair, split landing gear, three piece wing and poly fiber covering weights empty at 680 Lbs. No deviations from the plans other than longer Cabane struts (2 inch), center section cut out (no flop) and piano hinge ailerons That makes it only 4 Lbs heavier than Roman's steel tube fuselage with a similar setup. Oh....and I have an electric starter and battery on board. -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:05 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... One other question Hans, is your Corvair engine mount built to the plans, as far as engine distance forward of the firewall? Rick On 12/1/06, Hans Vander Voort wrote: > > hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> > > Rick, > > Yes, the John Deere that WW and Mark Langford suggest. > > The wing is moved back about 2" (cabanes leaning back). > It (flies) (fly's) is flying slightly nose heavy. > Probably should move the wing forward slightly 1/2" (1 1/2" leaning back) > may be this winter. > > FYI, I did not take extreme measure to build light, simply build to the > plans and weight should not be a problem. > > Hans. > > > "Rick Holland" > om> To > Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > owner-pietenpol-l cc > ist-server@matron > ics.com Subject > Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse > questions... > 12/01/2006 08:52 > AM > > > Please respond to > pietenpol-list@ma > tronics.com > > > This gives me new hope that I can build my long fuselage Corvair at > something under 700 lbs. Do you also have an altenator Hans? Or just > recharge your battery in the hanger? Also, did you have to move your wing > back to get your CG right? > > Thanks > > Rick > > On 11/29/06, Hans Vander Voort wrote: > hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> > > Just to compare. > > My Pietenpol, long fuse with a Corvair, split landing gear, three piece > wing and poly fiber covering weights empty at 680 Lbs. > No deviations from the plans other than longer Cabane struts (2 inch), > center section cut out (no flop) and piano hinge ailerons > > That makes it only 4 Lbs heavier than Roman's steel tube fuselage with a > similar setup. > > Oh....and I have an electric starter and battery on board. > > > -- > Rick Holland > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Light weight Pietenpol From: "Bill Church" Right now, on ebay, there's a Pietenpol for sale - built to plans from Don Pietenpol, fully constructed, minus engine, not covered, with wire wheels, and straight axle gear. The weight is approximately 65 pounds... Oh yeah, it's half-scale. Check it out, the workmanship is unbelievable. From the photos you would have a hard time to tell that it wasn't full size. There's a rudder bar, fuel tank, turnbuckles, built-up ribs with gussets... a real museum piece. ebay item # 130054239356 if this link doesn't work. http://cgi.ebay.com/PIETENPOL-Scale-Giant-Gas-Airplane-Flying-Model-1930 S_W0QQitemZ130054239356QQihZ003QQcategoryZ19164QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem Bill C ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... From: Hans Vander Voort Rick, Yes, I build the Pietenpol Corvair motor mount as per drawings. But did slide the tabs that bolt to the engine 1/2" forward, so the engine actually sits 1/2 more forward than the plans call for. With the modern firewall requirements (stainless + fibrefrax on top of the ply wood ) the oil filter will not clear the Stainless. Alternatively, You could make a indentation of 1/2" in to the firewall, a lot of work. Or use longer motor mount fittings the ones that bolt on the wood at the forward fuselage (to late for me) Or use a remote Filter mount. (I did not like this) Additionally I use the polyurethane vibration mounts that WW suggests. This will raise the engine some what from what the plans call for (3/4") So I do have some additional deviation from the plans, but none of them add weight or reduce strength of the original design. Hans "Rick Holland" To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... 12/01/2006 11:49 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com One other question Hans, is your Corvair engine mount built to the plans, as far as engine distance forward of the firewall? Rick On 12/1/06, Hans Vander Voort wrote: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> Rick, Yes, the John Deere that WW and Mark Langford suggest. The wing is moved back about 2" (cabanes leaning back). It (flies) (fly's) is flying slightly nose heavy. Probably should move the wing forward slightly 1/2" (1 1/2" leaning back) may be this winter. FYI, I did not take extreme measure to build light, simply build to the plans and weight should not be a problem. Hans. "Rick Holland" < at7000ft@gmail.c om> To Sent by: pietenpol-list@matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse questions... 12/01/2006 08:52 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com This gives me new hope that I can build my long fuselage Corvair at something under 700 lbs. Do you also have an altenator Hans? Or just recharge your battery in the hanger? Also, did you have to move your wing back to get your CG right? Thanks Rick On 11/29/06, Hans Vander Voort < hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> wrote: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com> Just to compare. My Pietenpol, long fuse with a Corvair, split landing gear, three piece wing and poly fiber covering weights empty at 680 Lbs. No deviations from the plans other than longer Cabane struts (2 inch), center section cut out (no flop) and piano hinge ailerons That makes it only 4 Lbs heavier than Roman's steel tube fuselage with a similar setup. Oh....and I have an electric starter and battery on board. -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Light weight Pietenpol From: "Jack T. Textor" Bill, I would be tempted to fly it! Jack Textor Right now, on ebay, there's a Pietenpol for sale - built to plans from Don Pietenpol, fully constructed, minus engine, not covered, with wire wheels, and straight axle gear. The weight is approximately 65 pounds... Oh yeah, it's half-scale. Check it out, the workmanship is unbelievable. From the photos you would have a hard time to tell that it wasn't full size. There's a rudder bar, fuel tank, turnbuckles, built-up ribs with gussets... a real museum piece. ebay item # 130054239356 if this link doesn't work. http://cgi.ebay.com/PIETENPOL-Scale-Giant-Gas-Airplane-Flying-Model-1930 S_W0QQitemZ130054239356QQihZ003QQcategoryZ19164QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem Bill C ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:00 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Light weight Pietenpol ohhhh my! I must own it! DJ Vegh - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack T. Textor To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:14 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Light weight Pietenpol Bill, I would be tempted to fly it! Jack Textor Right now, on ebay, there's a Pietenpol for sale - built to plans from Don Pietenpol, fully constructed, minus engine, not covered, with wire wheels, and straight axle gear. The weight is approximately 65 pounds... Oh yeah, it's half-scale. Check it out, the workmanship is unbelievable. From the photos you would have a hard time to tell that it wasn't full size. There's a rudder bar, fuel tank, turnbuckles, built-up ribs with gussets... a real museum piece. ebay item # 130054239356 if this link doesn't work. http://cgi.ebay.com/PIETENPOL-Scale-Giant-Gas-Airplane-Flying-Model-1930S _W0QQitemZ130054239356QQihZ003QQcategoryZ19164QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem Bill C www.aeroelectric.comwww.kitlog.comhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piet enpol-List ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:10 AM PST US From: "Marshall Lumsden" Subject: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners My name is Marshall Lumsden and I'd like to meet with some Pietenpol owners in the Southern California area where I live. I am a freelance writer who has done some articles for Smithsonian Air & Space magazine. I've suggested an article on the Pietenpol and they'd like to move ahead with it. I'm also interested in hearing about any planned get-togethers or fly-ins anywhere in the country in the next six months. My own background includes time as a WWII pilot (P-40s in N. Africa and Italy and time in P-39s and P--47s among other antiques. That was a time when "tail draggers" were known as "conventional landing gear.") My interest is rooted in my early days on the farm in Michigan where a neighbor built a Pietenpol from scratch from mail-order plans. He taught himself to fly it by first building the wings and empennage onto a two-dimensional truss to make a glider, adding controls and a cultivator seat, and getting a friend to tow him aloft. Truly a remarkable achievement, I think you'll agree. WWII grounded his Pietenpol for good, but he continued to fly over central Michigan's flat farm landscape in a store-bought Funk -- without a pilots license -- for the rest of his long life. The vitality of the Pietenpol community today shows what an amazing slice of American aviation history this aircraft represents. I look forward to hearing from you. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:59 AM PST US From: Tim Verthein Subject: Pietenpol-List: carb heat/steel wool/road landing Intersting post. The new issue of "Aviation Safety" cover story is about landing on roads and highways in an emergency. I was expecting to find at least a paragraph telling of the FAA/DOT and whoever else would get excited and the evils of doing this, but nothing of that sort was mentioned in the article. How to do it, when not to do it, case stories, etc, but not a word about regulatory issues related to this. There's lots of info on how to do it safely, etc but not even a hint of "last resort" attitude. Anyone know more that this magazine article failed to offer? Seemed odd to me that a mag of this nature would NOT include legal troubles caused by choosing road over an adjacent field, if there are in fact, any issues. Perhaps the evils of regulatory troubles caused by an emergency landing on a road are urban legends? I have no idea, personally I always thought you'd be in heap big trouble, but not a mention here! Tim in Bovey == You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor! == ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:21 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Light weight Pietenpol From: "Jack T. Textor" I won't bdb on then DJ, I crashed to many RC's Jack Textor ohhhh my! I must own it! DJ Vegh - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack T. Textor To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:14 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Light weight Pietenpol Bill, I would be tempted to fly it! Jack Textor Right now, on ebay, there's a Pietenpol for sale - built to plans from Don Pietenpol, fully constructed, minus engine, not covered, with wire wheels, and straight axle gear. The weight is approximately 65 pounds... Oh yeah, it's half-scale. Check it out, the workmanship is unbelievable. From the photos you would have a hard time to tell that it wasn't full size. There's a rudder bar, fuel tank, turnbuckles, built-up ribs with gussets... a real museum piece. ebay item # 130054239356 if this link doesn't work. http://cgi.ebay.com/PIETENPOL-Scale-Giant-Gas-Airplane-Flying-Model-1930 S_W0QQitemZ130054239356QQihZ003QQcategoryZ19164QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem Bill C www.aeroelectric.com www.kitlog.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c h ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr o nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:23 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb heat/steel wool/road landing Tim, In some areas in the west and very often in Alaska, road landings are a way of life. I know several pilots that keep their plane at home and use the road for an airstrip every time they fly. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Verthein" Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 1:49 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: carb heat/steel wool/road landing > > > Intersting post. > The new issue of "Aviation Safety" cover story is about landing on > roads and highways in an emergency. I was expecting to find at least a > paragraph telling of the FAA/DOT and whoever else would get excited and > the evils of doing this, but nothing of that sort was mentioned in the > article. How to do it, when not to do it, case stories, etc, but not a > word about regulatory issues related to this. There's lots of info on > how to do it safely, etc but not even a hint of "last resort" attitude. > Anyone know more that this magazine article failed to offer? Seemed > odd to me that a mag of this nature would NOT include legal troubles > caused by choosing road over an adjacent field, if there are in fact, > any issues. Perhaps the evils of regulatory troubles caused by an > emergency landing on a road are urban legends? I have no idea, > personally I always thought you'd be in heap big trouble, but not a > mention here! > > Tim in Bovey > > == > You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor! > == > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:53 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: road landing I'm not sure about other states, but I'll bet you a doughnut that if you land an airplane on a California highway, they will find a way to tax or fine you. After all, you didn't pay road use taxes on the fuel in that tank (unless you're running autogas), and you sure didn't pay any excise tax on those tires to help pay for the highways. Everything seems to be illegal in CA except the things that should be ;o) I wondered the same thing about operating a floatplane off of public waters... lakes, impoundments, even rivers. I guess people do it but there must be some prohibition about operating something other than a registered watercraft on public waters. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:29 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: road landing From: "Phillips, Jack" Actually, seaplane operations vary greatly by state. In North Carolina, for instance, there are very few places where you can legally land a seaplane. I live between two good sized lakes, Jordan Lake (14,000 acres) and Harris Lake (4,400 acres). Jordan is owned and operated by the US Army Corps of Engineers and seaplane operations are forbidden. Harris is owned by Progress Energy and seaplanes are allowed to operate if they have written permission from Progress Energy. The Seaplane Pilots Association published a Water Landing Directory with regulations listed by state. I'll have to look at mine to see if seaplane operations are allowed in California. I've already verified that when I retire and move to Smith Mountain Lake in Virginia, sepalnes are welcomed there. I wonder how a Pietenpol on floats would do? Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: road landing --> I'm not sure about other states, but I'll bet you a doughnut that if you land an airplane on a California highway, they will find a way to tax or fine you. After all, you didn't pay road use taxes on the fuel in that tank (unless you're running autogas), and you sure didn't pay any excise tax on those tires to help pay for the highways. Everything seems to be illegal in CA except the things that should be ;o) I wondered the same thing about operating a floatplane off of public waters... lakes, impoundments, even rivers. I guess people do it but there must be some prohibition about operating something other than a registered watercraft on public waters. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:47 PM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners Hello Marshall, I am living in Garden Grove, but building in Santa Maria. All I have here are my wing ribs, my fuselage is at the Santa Maria Airport. Where are you located? Cheers, Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marshall Lumsden Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners My name is Marshall Lumsden and I'd like to meet with some Pietenpol owners in the Southern California area where I live. I am a freelance writer who has done some articles for Smithsonian Air & Space magazine. I've suggested an article on the Pietenpol and they'd like to move ahead with it. I'm also interested in hearing about any planned get-togethers or fly-ins anywhere in the country in the next six months. My own background includes time as a WWII pilot (P-40s in N. Africa and Italy and time in P-39s and P--47s among other antiques. That was a time when "tail draggers" were known as "conventional landing gear.") My interest is rooted in my early days on the farm in Michigan where a neighbor built a Pietenpol from scratch from mail-order plans. He taught himself to fly it by first building the wings and empennage onto a two-dimensional truss to make a glider, adding controls and a cultivator seat, and getting a friend to tow him aloft. Truly a remarkable achievement, I think you'll agree. WWII grounded his Pietenpol for good, but he continued to fly over central Michigan's flat farm landscape in a store-bought Funk -- without a pilots license -- for the rest of his long life. The vitality of the Pietenpol community today shows what an amazing slice of American aviation history this aircraft represents. I look forward to hearing from you. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:27 PM PST US From: "Marshall Lumsden" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners Hi Dave: I'm in Malibu. Sometime before long I'd like to talk to you about your involvement with Pietenpols. My phone number is 310-457-7511. Why are you building in Santa Maria, by the way? ML ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Abramson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 1:09 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners Hello Marshall, I am living in Garden Grove, but building in Santa Maria. All I have here are my wing ribs, my fuselage is at the Santa Maria Airport. Where are you located? Cheers, Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marshall Lumsden Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:44 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners My name is Marshall Lumsden and I'd like to meet with some Pietenpol owners in the Southern California area where I live. I am a freelance writer who has done some articles for Smithsonian Air & Space magazine. I've suggested an article on the Pietenpol and they'd like to move ahead with it. I'm also interested in hearing about any planned get-togethers or fly-ins anywhere in the country in the next six months. My own background includes time as a WWII pilot (P-40s in N. Africa and Italy and time in P-39s and P--47s among other antiques. That was a time when "tail draggers" were known as "conventional landing gear.") My interest is rooted in my early days on the farm in Michigan where a neighbor built a Pietenpol from scratch from mail-order plans. He taught himself to fly it by first building the wings and empennage onto a two-dimensional truss to make a glider, adding controls and a cultivator seat, and getting a friend to tow him aloft. Truly a remarkable achievement, I think you'll agree. WWII grounded his Pietenpol for good, but he continued to fly over central Michigan's flat farm landscape in a store-bought Funk -- without a pilots license -- for the rest of his long life. The vitality of the Pietenpol community today shows what an amazing slice of American aviation history this aircraft represents. I look forward to hearing from you. -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the Contribution link below to find out more about this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by: * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com * Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com List Contribution Web Site --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:42 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: road landing Oscar, Here in NJ water landing is a no-no. Think a few places at the shore in the tidal waters it's legal. We even have Greenwood lake that's half in NJ and half in NY. You can only taxi on the NJ side, and take off and land on the NY side permissable walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: road landing > > > I'm not sure about other states, but I'll bet you a doughnut that if you > land an airplane on a California highway, they will find a way to tax or > fine you. After all, you didn't pay road use taxes on the fuel in that > tank (unless you're running autogas), and you sure didn't pay any excise > tax on those tires to help pay for the highways. Everything seems to be > illegal in CA except the things that should be ;o) > > I wondered the same thing about operating a floatplane off of public > waters... lakes, impoundments, even rivers. I guess people do it but > there must be some prohibition about operating something other than a > registered watercraft on public waters. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > _________________________________________________________________ > Fixing up the home? Live Search can help > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:03 PM PST US From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet. propeller Hi Dale: What did you and Greg do with with your rain damaged propeller? Could you repair it after all? Leon S. do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:58 PM PST US From: "Dale Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet. propeller Leon Stefan I am working on it now. Going to re profile the leading edge. It needed it. Then will try some leading edge tape. Hope it works. Dale > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 12/1/2006 4:02:01 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet. propeller > > > Hi Dale: What did you and Greg do with with your rain damaged propeller? > Could you repair it after all? Leon S. do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:23 PM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners Hey Marshall, My Parents Live up in Santa Maria, and my father has a Cessna 150 there. Hanger rent was dirt cheap a few years ago so I got a hanger for myself. Was planning to move up there a couple years ago but have not yet. I will give you a call in the next few days! Cheers, Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marshall Lumsden Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners Hi Dave: I'm in Malibu. Sometime before long I'd like to talk to you about your involvement with Pietenpols. My phone number is 310-457-7511. Why are you building in Santa Maria, by the way? ML ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Abramson Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 1:09 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners Hello Marshall, I am living in Garden Grove, but building in Santa Maria. All I have here are my wing ribs, my fuselage is at the Santa Maria Airport. Where are you located? Cheers, Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marshall Lumsden Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: meeting owners My name is Marshall Lumsden and I'd like to meet with some Pietenpol owners in the Southern California area where I live. I am a freelance writer who has done some articles for Smithsonian Air & Space magazine. I've suggested an article on the Pietenpol and they'd like to move ahead with it. I'm also interested in hearing about any planned get-togethers or fly-ins anywhere in the country in the next six months. My own background includes time as a WWII pilot (P-40s in N. Africa and Italy and time in P-39s and P--47s among other antiques. That was a time when "tail draggers" were known as "conventional landing gear.") My interest is rooted in my early days on the farm in Michigan where a neighbor built a Pietenpol from scratch from mail-order plans. He taught himself to fly it by first building the wings and empennage onto a two-dimensional truss to make a glider, adding controls and a cultivator seat, and getting a friend to tow him aloft. Truly a remarkable achievement, I think you'll agree. WWII grounded his Pietenpol for good, but he continued to fly over central Michigan's flat farm landscape in a store-bought Funk -- without a pilots license -- for the rest of his long life. The vitality of the Pietenpol community today shows what an amazing slice of American aviation history this aircraft represents. I look forward to hearing from you. -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the Contribution link below to find out more about this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by: * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com * Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com List Contribution Web Site --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:15 PM PST US From: Wizzard187@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet. cables Pieters, I wonder what cables you guys are using. 1/8th or 3/32 and do you use stainless or the regular stuff. I know that there are different nicro for each. Also which wire design is best like 7 x7 or something different. Thanks, Ken in cool Iowa with some snow ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:23 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet. propeller Dale I have a roll of 6" leading edge tape. You are welcome to some. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Johnson" Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:42 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet. propeller > > > Leon Stefan > I am working on it now. Going to re profile the leading edge. It needed > it. > Then will try some leading edge tape. Hope it works. > Dale > > >> [Original Message] >> From: >> To: >> Date: 12/1/2006 4:02:01 PM >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet. propeller >> >> >> Hi Dale: What did you and Greg do with with your rain damaged propeller? >> Could you repair it after all? Leon S. do not archive >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:54 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet. cables Ken You will find differing opinions on this, as everything. I used 3/32" galvanized on drag and anti drag in wing. 1/8" x 7/19galvanized on controll cables, especially ones that have to make turns thru pulleys. Stainless 1/8" on things that show in obvious places. Most importantly, 1/19x 1/8" on cross brace cables for fixed landing gear. Initially, I used 7x19 and had a cable failure. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wizzard187@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet. cables Pieters, I wonder what cables you guys are using. 1/8th or 3/32 and do you use stainless or the regular stuff. I know that there are different nicro for each. Also which wire design is best like 7 x7 or something different. Thanks, Ken in cool Iowa with some snow ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:57 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 vs. resorcinol Maybe thats the one... There were some brown tablets that were probably boiled in water, I was not alowed to ge to close at that age, I remember as a very little boy probably 5, looking at Grampas shop... Was bought by the weight, Went shoping with him several times. That old store still sells some strange old products we now dont know what are for...Hope I had keept his notes. My point is that probably most of the modern glues will be more resistant to moisture and time, that the wood they are bonding together, if not properly protected... But in any case, the peace of mind of the pilot is first, Go for the better glue (and wood) you can aford and find... Saludos Gary Gower Dale Johnson wrote: Gary Are you sure it was caseine glue and not hide glue. Most furniture used hide glue and still do. Put it in a heat pot and spread it on. Dale ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: 11/29/2006 3:18:43 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 vs. resorcinol Just a short comment, Lets remember that some of the old airplanes (some still flying) were glued with pre resorcinol ot T-88 glues, like Caseine glue and few are still flying or in museums in perfect shape. I have a few family furniture bonded with Caseine Glue that is in better shape that the newer with modern glues... Barnishing and mantainance is very important will prevent any wood around the joint to fail for moisture, the glue will be perfect but the wood around could fail... like an old barn roof. Good inspection every year to all wood, wood joints and ply is important for a sound (wood) airplane. Dont forget proper installed dain holes and some venting. Saludos Gary Gower Good grief, Jack-! Are you planning to fly your Piet through 24 hours of boiling water? Icarus will certainly plummet! This is one discussion that will never end, as long as there are taverns, hangars, and pilots. Less filling or more taste? T-88 or resorcinol? I'll settle for T-88, having used it and found that its qualities are very endearing... workable in temps down into the 50s, not fussy about proportioning, nice gap filling, dries clear, readily available, quick curing, will bond dissimilar materials, and well documented in aviation use for a long time. But, I do not plan to fly through boiling water, ever ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________ _________________________________________________________ Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:10 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Pietenpol-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Pietenpol-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Pietenpol-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. 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The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Pietenpol-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Pietenpol-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Pietenpol ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:16 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.