Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Wed 12/20/06


Total Messages Posted: 42



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:49 AM - fuselage gussetts (Robin HART)
     2. 03:47 AM - Re: fuselage gussetts (Peter W Johnson)
     3. 03:53 AM - Re: fuselage gussetts (Skip-Cinda Gadd)
     4. 04:07 AM - Re: fuselage gussetts ()
     5. 04:38 AM - lost it! (Gene Beenenga)
     6. 05:22 AM - Re: lost it! (Bill Church)
     7. 05:54 AM - Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Greg Bacon)
     8. 07:04 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Bill Church)
     9. 07:14 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (DJ Vegh)
    10. 08:54 AM - Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Oscar Zuniga)
    11. 09:03 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
    12. 09:15 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
    13. 09:26 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Jeff Boatright)
    14. 09:38 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
    15. 09:52 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (HelsperSew@aol.com)
    16. 10:08 AM - Re: Cold weather head gear (Rob Stapleton)
    17. 10:33 AM - Re: fuselage gussetts (Rick Holland)
    18. 11:13 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
    19. 11:46 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (HelsperSew@aol.com)
    20. 12:00 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (HelsperSew@aol.com)
    21. 12:01 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
    22. 12:04 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
    23. 12:07 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Jack T. Textor)
    24. 12:15 PM - diesel Piet (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
    25. 12:33 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (pietflyr)
    26. 12:53 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Jeff Boatright)
    27. 01:35 PM - diesel Piet (Oscar Zuniga)
    28. 01:48 PM - Re: Model Pietenpol (Glenn Thomas)
    29. 01:49 PM - Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Oscar Zuniga)
    30. 01:53 PM - Jury struts (HelsperSew@aol.com)
    31. 01:53 PM - strut harmonics (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
    32. 02:09 PM - Re: Riblett airfoil (Tim Willis)
    33. 02:11 PM - one man's jury strut attach method (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
    34. 02:31 PM - Re: diesel Piet (Peter W Johnson)
    35. 02:38 PM - Re: diesel Piet (Bill Church)
    36. 02:47 PM - Re: Jury struts (Rcaprd@aol.com)
    37. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: Funk piet and Riblett airfoil (Rcaprd@aol.com)
    38. 04:31 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (PIETLARS29@wmconnect.com)
    39. 05:12 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Hans Vander Voort)
    40. 07:47 PM - Re: Don's post on Riblett pitching moment (Don Emch)
    41. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Model Pietenpol (n925wb1@aol.com)
    42. 09:01 PM - Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method - Thanks Guys! (Greg Bacon)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:49:19 AM PST US
    Subject: fuselage gussetts
    From: "Robin HART" <robin.hart@ecu.edu.au>
    I am slowly gathering the courage to begin Piet construction in ernest by following Bingelis' advice and starting with a mockup. As the fuselage sides start to take shape on the bench, I have come across the first of many opportunities to exhibit my technical inadequacy. As I understand it, the plans call for gussett plates on both inboard and outboard surfaces of the fuselage sides. This would imply than the cross members between the fuselage sides are glued to the inboard surfaces of the gussett plates, rather than the inboard surfaces of the spruce longerons themselves. Is this how others have interpreted the same construction detail or am I missing something? It occurred to me that gluing to the ply might be weaker than gluing directly to the spruce. Happy to be told otherwise. I'd like to get these details clear in my mind before cutting expensive sitka; I'm sure esteemed list members will understand! On a separate note I would like to congratulate Peter from Wonthaggi on the first flights of VH-UFZ. VH-PTN (as close as I could get to a rego similar to the designer's name!) is around a decade behind you! Will try to get over to Vic to have closer look in the new year, assuming I'm not imposing unduly on your time. Thanks to all. Rob Hart, PhD Adjunct Associate Professor School of Exercise, Biomedical and Health Sciences Edith Cowan University P: +61 8 6461 9404 F: +61 8 6461 9499


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:47:16 AM PST US
    From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
    Subject: fuselage gussetts
    Robin, Its the gusset that adds the strength, not necessarily the glue on the bracing members. I put gussets on both sides of the fuse, glued the bracing members to them and then added gussets to the longeron/bracing members. You are more than welcome to come and visit. Check out the web site (http://www.cpc-world.com) for lots of pictures of the construction. Cheers Peter. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin HART Sent: Wednesday, 20 December 2006 8:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuselage gussetts I am slowly gathering the courage to begin Piet construction in ernest by following Bingelis' advice and starting with a mockup. As the fuselage sides start to take shape on the bench, I have come across the first of many opportunities to exhibit my technical inadequacy. As I understand it, the plans call for gussett plates on both inboard and outboard surfaces of the fuselage sides. This would imply than the cross members between the fuselage sides are glued to the inboard surfaces of the gussett plates, rather than the inboard surfaces of the spruce longerons themselves. Is this how others have interpreted the same construction detail or am I missing something? It occurred to me that gluing to the ply might be weaker than gluing directly to the spruce. Happy to be told otherwise. I'd like to get these details clear in my mind before cutting expensive sitka; I'm sure esteemed list members will understand! On a separate note I would like to congratulate Peter from Wonthaggi on the first flights of VH-UFZ. VH-PTN (as close as I could get to a rego similar to the designer's name!) is around a decade behind you! Will try to get over to Vic to have closer look in the new year, assuming I'm not imposing unduly on your time. Thanks to all. Rob Hart, PhD Adjunct Associate Professor School of Exercise, Biomedical and Health Sciences Edith Cowan University P: +61 8 6461 9404 F: +61 8 6461 9499 -- 1:17 PM


    Message 3


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    Time: 03:53:24 AM PST US
    From: "Skip-Cinda Gadd" <csfog@earthlink.net>
    Subject: fuselage gussetts
    Hi Rob, > [Original Message] > From: Robin HART <robin.hart@ecu.edu.au> > This would imply than the cross members between the fuselage sides are glued to the inboard surfaces of the gussett plates, rather than the inboard surfaces of the spruce >longerons themselves. Correct, glue the cross members to the gusset plates. > It occurred to me that gluing to the ply might be weaker than gluing directly to the spruce. The gusset gives the joint almost all of it's strength, a butt joint by itself is not very strong. Do a couple tests with scrap wood and see for yourself. Skip


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:07:38 AM PST US
    Subject: fuselage gussetts
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    The real courage comes when ya hav ta get in er and fly.That's when the mouth drys up and other parts of your body pucker!!!!!!HEEEEE,HEEEE!Looking forward to hearing when you fly!!!! Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin HART Sent: December 20, 2006 4:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuselage gussetts <robin.hart@ecu.edu.au> I am slowly gathering the courage to begin Piet construction in ernest by following Bingelis' advice and starting with a mockup. As the fuselage sides start to take shape on the bench, I have come across the first of many opportunities to exhibit my technical inadequacy. As I understand it, the plans call for gussett plates on both inboard and outboard surfaces of the fuselage sides. This would imply than the cross members between the fuselage sides are glued to the inboard surfaces of the gussett plates, rather than the inboard surfaces of the spruce longerons themselves. Is this how others have interpreted the same construction detail or am I missing something? It occurred to me that gluing to the ply might be weaker than gluing directly to the spruce. Happy to be told otherwise. I'd like to get these details clear in my mind before cutting expensive sitka; I'm sure esteemed list members will understand! On a separate note I would like to congratulate Peter from Wonthaggi on the first flights of VH-UFZ. VH-PTN (as close as I could get to a rego similar to the designer's name!) is around a decade behind you! Will try to get over to Vic to have closer look in the new year, assuming I'm not imposing unduly on your time. Thanks to all. Rob Hart, PhD Adjunct Associate Professor School of Exercise, Biomedical and Health Sciences Edith Cowan University P: +61 8 6461 9404 F: +61 8 6461 9499


    Message 5


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    Time: 04:38:41 AM PST US
    From: Gene Beenenga <kgbunltd@earthlink.net>
    Subject: lost it!
    once more, please give me the email/web page sources for Piet (and it had other models) models RC and others thanks, Ken


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:22:30 AM PST US
    Subject: lost it!
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Gene, The model I have to build is a kit, rather than plans. It includes plans, but the plans are not available seperately. The model is made by Dumas. The webpage is http://www.dumasestore.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=50_63 Or you can buy from Tower Hobbies http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXBDG9&P=0 Or, for a set of plans, there is a set available. DJ Vegh posted the plans for his 1/7 scale model on the Mykitplane site http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=7 Hope that helps. Bill


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:54:18 AM PST US
    From: "Greg Bacon" <gbacon67@hughes.net>
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    Gentlemen, Many piet builders have used the method of attaching the jury strut to the flying strut with a metal band wrapped around the flying strut. This is the method I plan to use. I'll be using the large aluminum Skytek struts similar to Larry William's bird. What materials are used for the band? If you have a close up photo of your fab job, please send them to me at gbacon67@hughes.net Thanks guys! Merry Christmas. Greg Bacon Prairie Home, MO


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:04:03 AM PST US
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Greg, Here's a link to a picture I took at Brodhead, of Ken Perkins' jury strut attachment strap. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=bhead050133 . JPG&PhotoID=3182 Like everything else on Ken's plane, it's very nicely done. I think Ken's plane has steel lift struts, not aluminum. Looks to me like a band of stainless steel, but I could be wrong. Bill C.


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:14:16 AM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <dj@veghdesign.com>
    Subject: Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    I plan to insert a solid aluminum bar about 1.50" long into the alumiunum strut where the jury strut mounts will be. I'll then drill out 3/16" for an AN43 eyebolt. I'll attach the jury struts to those eyebolts. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Bacon To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 6:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method Gentlemen, Many piet builders have used the method of attaching the jury strut to the flying strut with a metal band wrapped around the flying strut. This is the method I plan to use. I'll be using the large aluminum Skytek struts similar to Larry William's bird. What materials are used for the band? If you have a close up photo of your fab job, please send them to me at gbacon67@hughes.net Thanks guys! Merry Christmas. Greg Bacon Prairie Home, MO


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:54:12 AM PST US
    From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    Besides the vertical jury struts, most installations that I've seen (as in NX41CC) also include fore-and-aft stiffener between the verticals. A beautiful example is John Dilatush's "Mountain Piet", which was done somewhat like DJ is talking about doing except John's struts were steel and he welded in a bushing through a hole in the streamline tubing, then used an eyebolt to secure the struts to. Photo is the third one from the bottom at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:03:30 AM PST US
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    I used 4130 steel cut to spec as per the drawings;bent and drilled by a machinist.He also welded on the vertical piece for the downward strut attachment.The cross piece attached at the same point as the downward piece but if you so desire it can be cut shorter and attach at the bolt that holds the bracket on the main strut.Actually in looking at it closr now I think it would have been better had I used the second method of attaching the cross piece at the bolt holding the bracket because it would put less stress on the weld point of the vertical connection.You can make out some of the parts if you blow up the desired area on the computer. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Bacon Sent: December 20, 2006 8:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method Gentlemen, Many piet builders have used the method of attaching the jury strut to the flying strut with a metal band wrapped around the flying strut. This is the method I plan to use. I'll be using the large aluminum Skytek struts similar to Larry William's bird. What materials are used for the band? If you have a close up photo of your fab job, please send them to me at gbacon67@hughes.net Thanks guys! Merry Christmas. Greg Bacon Prairie Home, MO


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:15:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    I noticed also that his attachments are further up the main strut making his jury struts shorter.He would be attaching at a different point on the wing.I'm wondering what difference if any this would make in the wings performance?It certainly would save you in material if this was not a problem.Very nice clean looking job though.Matter of fact his whole plane is a work of art. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: December 20, 2006 11:54 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method <taildrags@hotmail.com> Besides the vertical jury struts, most installations that I've seen (as in NX41CC) also include fore-and-aft stiffener between the verticals. A beautiful example is John Dilatush's "Mountain Piet", which was done somewhat like DJ is talking about doing except John's struts were steel and he welded in a bushing through a hole in the streamline tubing, then used an eyebolt to secure the struts to. Photo is the third one from the bottom at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:26:51 AM PST US
    From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    What is the purpose of the cross piece? My plane does not have them, but we've been thinking about adding them "just because". At 12:03 PM -0500 12/20/06, <harvey.rule@bell.ca> wrote: >I used 4130 steel cut to spec as per the drawings;bent and drilled >by a machinist.He also welded on the vertical piece for the downward >strut attachment.The cross piece attached at the same point as the >downward piece but if you so desire it can be cut shorter and attach >at the bolt that holds the bracket on the main strut.Actually in >looking at it closr now I think it would have been better had I used >the second method of attaching the cross piece at the bolt holding >the bracket because it would put less stress on the weld point of >the vertical connection.You can make out some of the parts if you >blow up the desired area on the computer. -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:38:45 AM PST US
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    I imagine that they are for braising the main struts at the =BD way point.Just a guess. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: December 20, 2006 12:31 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method What is the purpose of the cross piece? My plane does not have them, but we've been thinking about adding them "just because". At 12:03 PM -0500 12/20/06, <harvey.rule@bell.ca> wrote: I used 4130 steel cut to spec as per the drawings;bent and drilled by a machinist.He also welded on the vertical piece for the downward strut attachment.The cross piece attached at the same point as the downward piece but if you so desire it can be cut shorter and attach at the bolt that holds the bracket on the main strut.Actually in looking at it closr now I think it would have been better had I used the second method of attaching the cross piece at the bolt holding the bracket because it would put less stress on the weld point of the vertical connection.You can make out some of the parts if you blow up the desired area on the computer. -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu


    Message 15


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    Time: 09:52:15 AM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    Guys The only reason for the jury struts are to keep the main struts from bowing on a hard landing or during negative G's. The cross braces are there to keep the main struts from bowing sideways (forward and back) during these times. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL.


    Message 16


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    Time: 10:08:38 AM PST US
    From: "Rob Stapleton" <foto@alaska.net>
    Subject: Cold weather head gear
    Well if you do try to fly it up the Alaska Highway let me know, I will send you some helpful info like the Airmen's Logbook and a Milepost! Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gbowen@ptialaska.net Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:10 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cold weather head gear <gbowen@ptialaska.net> Rob, Come on down, I'm in the phone book. My Piete will remain in FL, Homer only gives me about 5 mos./yr flying weather. Except this summer it was only about 3 mos. If it wasn't for the 22 gal tank and limited range, I'd think about flying the Alcan someday but probably if plane is to make it to AK it will be on a trailer. Gordon Bowen Original Message: ----------------- From: foto@alaska.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cold weather head gear When I get my Piet done I will fly down from Anchorage! Rob Stapleton www.eaa42.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "gbowen@ptialaska.net" <gbowen@ptialaska.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cold weather head gear > <gbowen@ptialaska.net> > Gene, > You gotta miss AK. RE headgear, I have an older buddy that is good > withelectronics, he took a $100 full face shield motorcycle helmet and > installed a speaker in one ear, then hooked up to his handheld with > push to > talk button. I've tried it, but have a hard time understanding air > trafficwith one speaker, could be just his wiring. Suspect the > fleece lined cap > from airspruce would work on any type of headset. DC's keep the > ears warm > and the wind battering you get in an open cockpit plane is > minimized with > the cap. > Gotta a place in Homer AK for 9 mos. year. Piete flyers welcome to > comevisit. > Gordon Bowen > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Gene & Tammy zharvey@bellsouth.net > Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:37:25 -0600 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cold weather head gear > > > <zharvey@bellsouth.net> > Gordon, > Spent most of my life in Alaska (1960 to 1985 full time and up > until this > year half time as a captain for Alaska Clean Seas in the Arctic.) > so I'm > use > to being out in the cold but this humidity in the south is killling > me. I > have looked at the hats in Airspruce but don't own a set of David > Clarksand > don't want to spend the money to get a set. I was hoping someone > may have > made a helmet and still had the pattern. I agree on the motor > cycle > goggles. They look great! > Thanks > Gene > N502R > ----- > ----------------- > >> > > -------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > -- > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- ------------ > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > _- ======================================== ================== > _- ======================================== ================== > _- ======================================== ================== > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .


    Message 17


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    Time: 10:33:14 AM PST US
    From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: fuselage gussetts
    Rob This is one of many questions that will occur to you and things you will learn by building the mockup. I studied the plans for weeks before starting and the question you mentioned never occurred to me. One other thing that surprised me when building my mockup was the bottom front cross member doesn't contact the longerons OR the ply gussets, it can't because the lower engine mount fitting goes against the gusset. Have fun. Rick On 12/20/06, Robin HART <robin.hart@ecu.edu.au> wrote: > > > I am slowly gathering the courage to begin Piet construction in ernest by > following Bingelis' advice and starting with a mockup. As the fuselage > sides start to take shape on the bench, I have come across the first of many > opportunities to exhibit my technical inadequacy. As I understand it, the > plans call for gussett plates on both inboard and outboard surfaces of the > fuselage sides. This would imply than the cross members between the > fuselage sides are glued to the inboard surfaces of the gussett plates, > rather than the inboard surfaces of the spruce longerons themselves. Is this > how others have interpreted the same construction detail or am I missing > something? It occurred to me that gluing to the ply might be weaker than > gluing directly to the spruce. Happy to be told otherwise. I'd like to get > these details clear in my mind before cutting expensive sitka; I'm sure > esteemed list members will understand! > > On a separate note I would like to congratulate Peter from Wonthaggi on > the first flights of VH-UFZ. VH-PTN (as close as I could get to a rego > similar to the designer's name!) is around a decade behind you! Will try to > get over to Vic to have closer look in the new year, assuming I'm not > imposing unduly on your time. > > Thanks to all. > > Rob Hart, PhD > Adjunct Associate Professor > School of Exercise, Biomedical and Health Sciences > Edith Cowan University > P: +61 8 6461 9404 > F: +61 8 6461 9499 > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"


    Message 18


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    Time: 11:13:51 AM PST US
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    I always thought jury struts were there to stop wing warping.Things I've heard around the old guys. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: December 20, 2006 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method Guys The only reason for the jury struts are to keep the main struts from bowing on a hard landing or during negative G's. The cross braces are there to keep the main struts from bowing sideways (forward and back) during these times. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL.


    Message 19


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    Time: 11:46:07 AM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    How would the wings possibly warp with two fixed attach points, two fixed length main struts, and two stiff spars? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL.


    Message 20


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    Time: 12:00:00 PM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    The strut material BP used was very stiff and reinforced if you study the cross section, and did not need the jury struts. This strut material is not available any more in these modern times, thus, the need for jury struts. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL.


    Message 21


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    Time: 12:01:59 PM PST US
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    High Flight Articles Volume II No. 4 Page 69 - 1982 ________________________________ JURY STRUTS: Whazzat? By Don Langer, IMAA 1020 You probably know about flying and landing wires on bipes and ancient monos. Most scale builders include these for looks only. I recommend they be made totally functional on any Quarter-size or larger model. The Jury Strut serves nearly the same purpose as the landing wires in that it insures the integrity of the wing during negative "G" situations. The wing strut alone is fine for positive "G" loads if properly set up; but without a functional Jury Strut that same wing strut is prone to bowing and snapping when air pressure (or a small child) pushes down on your wing. A 20 to 30 inch 1/2" x 1/4" spruce (or other equally feeble) strut is just fine for those who fly straight and level with a totally vibration-free engine... and every landing. However, some of us do fly in a somewhat different manner and must concern ourselves with struts that work under both tension and compression. Not less than one of the popular jumbo kit manufacturer leaves this lifesaving device completely off, or merely includes it for scale appearance only. Current production kits may have improved in this area, but the Howard DGA-6 (Mister Mulligan) I built two years ago showed "fake" Jury Struts on the plans; the upper ends were to be run up through small plywood plates in the underside of the wing. The Citabria kit I just finished didn't show a thing. I've seen a beautiful J-3 Cub assembled and flown with the "fake" Jury Struts missing those little holes, which caused an unsightly and dangerous half-inch bow in the struts. As in skinning cats and mounting canopies, there are probably a thousand and one ways to set up struts and Jury Struts. Here's how I've done it on two different airplanes. 1. DuBro LG Straps for 1/8" gear (DuBro #238) - 8 ea. 2. * Goldberg LG Straps (Goldberg #LGS-50) - 8 ea. 3. ** Machine screws, 2-56x3/8" w/blind nuts - 16 ea. 4. 1/8" piano wire (if not supplied in kit) 5. 1/8" ply scrap (not lite-ply) * * Used to stand off Jury Strut ends 1/16" from covering material. * ** Can be replaced with #2 or #3 x 3/8" wood screws if you dare. And please, Hot-Stuff the pilot holes if you do. I stole this from the internet;can't take credit.it explains better the reason for jury struts.Wing warp was probably the wrong term to use although I have seen it actually happen with some ultralights.


    Message 22


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    Time: 12:04:10 PM PST US
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    Besides that the Government officials want us to use them.We don't argue with these folks since they say whether or not we fly. Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: December 20, 2006 2:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method The strut material BP used was very stiff and reinforced if you study the cross section, and did not need the jury struts. This strut material is not available any more in these modern times, thus, the need for jury struts. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL.


    Message 23


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    Time: 12:07:07 PM PST US
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor@thepalmergroup.com>
    Dan, it's something to watch. On a model I had, high wing, with struts and a nine foot wingspan. The first flight was exciting. I checked it carefully and didn't notice the warped wing. After take off, it took full aileron to maintain level flight. I was just happy to get it on the ground. Jack www.textors.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method How would the wings possibly warp with two fixed attach points, two fixed length main struts, and two stiff spars? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL.


    Message 24


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    Time: 12:15:31 PM PST US
    Subject: diesel Piet
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    http://www.wilksch.com/


    Message 25


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    Time: 12:33:29 PM PST US
    From: "pietflyr" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    T25lIHRoaW5nIHRvIHJlbWVtYmVyIHdoZW4gbG9jYXRpbmcgeW91ciBqdXJ5IHN0cnV0cy4gIERv bid0IHB1dCB0aGVtIHJpZ2h0IGluIHRoZSBtaWRkbGUgb2YgdGhlIGxlbmd0aCBvZiB0aGUgbGlm dCBzdHJ1dHMuICBNb3ZlIHRoZW0gdG8gb25lIHNpZGUgb3IgdGhlIG90aGVyIG9mIGNlbnRlciBz byB0aGUgbGlmdCBzdHJ1dHMgZG9uJ3QgYmVnaW4gdG8gcmVzb25hdGUuICBJZiB0aGUgbGVuZ3Ro IG9mIGxpZnQgc3RydXQgb24gb25lIHNpZGUgb2YgdGhlIGp1cnkgc3RydXQgZml0dGluZyBpcyBk aWZmZXJlbnQgZnJvbSB0aGUgbGVuZ3RoIG9mIGxpZnQgc3RydXQgb24gdGhlIG90aGVyIHNpZGUg b2YgdGhlIGp1cnkgc3RydXQsIHRoZSBsaWZ0IHN0cnV0IHdpbGwgbm90IHRlbmQgdG8gdmlicmF0 ZSBzbyBtdWNoLiAgSSBtYWRlIG15IGp1cnkgc3RydXRzIGEgbGl0dGxlIGNsb3NlciB0byB0aGUg dG9wIGVuZCBvZiB0aGUgbGlmdCBzdHJ1dHMgdG8gYXZvaWQgcmVzb25hbmNlIGFuZCB0byBtYWtl IHRoZSBqdXJ5IHN0cnV0cyBhIGxpdHRsZSBzaG9ydGVyLg0KDQpKYWNrIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpOWDg5 OUpQDQogIC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQogIEZyb206IG93bmVyLXBpZXRlbnBv bC1saXN0LXNlcnZlckBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIFttYWlsdG86b3duZXItcGlldGVucG9sLWxpc3Qt c2VydmVyQG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb21dT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIEhlbHNwZXJTZXdAYW9sLmNvbQ0KICBT ZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIERlY2VtYmVyIDIwLCAyMDA2IDEyOjUxIFBNDQogIFRvOiBwaWV0ZW5w b2wtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQogIFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBQaWV0ZW5wb2wtTGlzdDogSnVy eSBTdHJ1dCAtIGZseWluZyB3aW5nIHN0cnV0IGF0dGFjaCBtZXRob2QNCg0KDQogIEd1eXMNCiAg VGhlIG9ubHkgcmVhc29uIGZvciB0aGUganVyeSBzdHJ1dHMgYXJlIHRvIGtlZXAgdGhlIG1haW4g c3RydXRzIGZyb20gYm93aW5nIG9uIGEgaGFyZCBsYW5kaW5nIG9yIGR1cmluZyBuZWdhdGl2ZSBH J3MuICBUaGUgY3Jvc3MgYnJhY2VzIGFyZSB0aGVyZSB0byBrZWVwIHRoZSBtYWluIHN0cnV0cyBm cm9tIGJvd2luZyBzaWRld2F5cyAoZm9yd2FyZCBhbmQgYmFjaykNCiAgZHVyaW5nIHRoZXNlIHRp bWVzLiANCg0KICBEYW4gSGVsc3Blcg0KICBQb3BsYXIgR3JvdmUsIElMLg0KDQoNCg=


    Message 26


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    Time: 12:53:24 PM PST US
    From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    Harvey, Thanks for the jury strut article, Jeff -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Atlanta, GA 30322 Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision http://www.molvis.org/


    Message 27


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    Time: 01:35:11 PM PST US
    From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: diesel Piet
    G-BUXK, the Piet in the photos on the website that Mike posted, appears to have jury struts on the front main wing struts only, none on the aft struts and none connecting fore and aft struts. Interesting. The failure mode that we're trying to prevent by using jury struts is buckling of the struts under negative-G loading, such as in a very hard landing, a microburst event (!), or (heaven forbid) a negative-G aerobatic maneuver. In compression, the struts are considered to be "slender" structural elements given their dimensions and stiffness, thus the primary buckling failure mode would be best prevented by installing the jury struts at the midpoint of the strut length. I guess installing the jury struts further out (making them shorter) would be better than not having them at all, but the question is, "why?" The amount of material saved by making them a few inches shorter would be insignificant. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN Shopping Sales & Deals http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0639


    Message 28


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    Time: 01:48:51 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Model Pietenpol
    From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas@flyingwood.com>
    It's funny. I bought that Dumas kit about 2 years ago. I went online for some kit bashing ideas and ended up consumed with the idea of building the real deal. Never would have thought that model could have had moved me into the direction it has but I'm glad all the same. Real plane - almost half the ribs done. Model - still in box. I've been thinking about building it lately. Do you cover it with Litespan or tissue? It will be my first electric. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82745#82745


    Message 29


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    Time: 01:49:22 PM PST US
    From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    There is a picture of Steve Eldredge's Piet at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/SteveE.jpg Steve's attachments seem to be very simple and clean. Anybody seen them up close to see how they are done? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song. Get a customized station. Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001


    Message 30


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    Time: 01:53:34 PM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Jury struts
    Addressing the subject of placement of the jury struts: My eyeball engineering and gut feeling says that harmonic vibration of the struts would not be a factor in a slow vehicle such as the Piet. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL.


    Message 31


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    Time: 01:53:55 PM PST US
    Subject: strut harmonics
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    I've noted that at various power settings my wing struts vibrate so I just adjust the power a titch when I see that going on. A local guru (another authority like me---yeah right !) suggested that I tie a lead fishing sinker to the bottom of where my jury struts attach and I was going to do that just to see but never did. What the heck--it would be a good excuse to go flying and physics-wise his suggestion made sense. In real life flying I encounter my worst negative g loading on the airplane on hot bumpy days when the jarring is bad enough to jerk the stick out from my hand. I don't have a g-meter in the plane but I'm sure those wing know and thank God for those itty bitty jury struts out there---esp. for the most dangerous maneuver I perform-----The landing. Mike C.


    Message 32


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    Time: 02:09:30 PM PST US
    From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett airfoil
    Thanks to all for the input on this. All of it is good, sound, and appreciated. The best solution is for me to lose weight. It not only leads to a far better plane, but a far better and longer life. I have not found this very easy to do. I appreciate the several posts on LG, yaw and other handling issues from a farther-forward engine. LG positioning had looked marginal at the extremes, and I had considered needing more rudder, but not to the degree expressed from real-world usage in a Piet. Chuck, I will proceed slowly in my case on the change to Riblett or anything else radical. I have an OK life right now and don't want to worsen or end it from pushing any envelope. Clif, thanks for the formula. I ran it, inputting a max. of 1225#, right at the sport pilot limit, and AS A WORST CASE-- nothing I want to do. It solved for 47 hp reqd. with a 28 ft. wingspan. The 47hp is 73% of the A-65's nominal figure. In these ranges, each foot of added wingspan takes off 1hp min.reqd.. Each 100 pounds off gross weight takes off 5 hp from minimum required hp. Once again, it proves lighter is better. Someone may want to run their own numbers on their craft, either to check me, or even better, to share them. Thanks & regards, Tim in ce. TX -----Original Message----- >From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca> >Sent: Dec 19, 2006 9:20 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett airfoil > > >Not quite. It's designed for a smaller engine. >Shorter wing. >Shorter fuse. >Lighter. > >When dealing with engines and weight you should >REALLY study these formulie and punch some >numbers in. Remember, the real HP of Lycs and >Continentals is a minimum of 20% less than rated >and the "A" put out 36 hp. > >http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part5/Standards/549/sub-b.htm#549.109 > >Clif > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Leon Stefan" <lshutks@webtv.net> >To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> >Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:06 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett airfoil > > >> >> Tim Willis: Hans sort of has a good point, but even better how about >> eliminating the rear cockpit all together, At 270 lbs I doubt your Piet >> could ever carry a passenger very well at all. (no offense meant) I've >> always thought a more practical Sky Scout is an Aircamper with only a >> front cockpit. Leon S. In Ks. anticipating another big winter storm. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> 12/19/2006 1:17 PM >> >> > >


    Message 33


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    Time: 02:11:41 PM PST US
    Subject: one man's jury strut attach method
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    See attached photo for how I installed my jury struts. I copied, plagiarized, and otherwise blatantly stole an age-tested design that was used by Aeronca Champ aircraft. Mike C. see attachment


    Message 34


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    Time: 02:31:00 PM PST US
    From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
    Subject: diesel Piet
    Oscar, The Piets built to the Jim Wills UK plans only have one jury strut (as does mine). Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Thursday, 21 December 2006 8:35 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: diesel Piet G-BUXK, the Piet in the photos on the website that Mike posted, appears to have jury struts on the front main wing struts only, none on the aft struts and none connecting fore and aft struts. Interesting. The failure mode that we're trying to prevent by using jury struts is buckling of the struts under negative-G loading, such as in a very hard landing, a microburst event (!), or (heaven forbid) a negative-G aerobatic maneuver. In compression, the struts are considered to be "slender" structural elements given their dimensions and stiffness, thus the primary buckling failure mode would be best prevented by installing the jury struts at the midpoint of the strut length. I guess installing the jury struts further out (making them shorter) would be better than not having them at all, but the question is, "why?" The amount of material saved by making them a few inches shorter would be insignificant. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN Shopping Sales & Deals http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0639 -- 1:17 PM -- 1:17 PM


    Message 35


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    Time: 02:38:26 PM PST US
    Subject: diesel Piet
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Oscar, Pretty much all of the British Pietenpols seem to have only the one jury strut on the front strut. Check out the photo gallery at http://www.pietenpolclub.co.uk/ One exception is Arthur Mason's G-ADRA, which has photos with both configurations (single and double jury struts). Looks like he tried one, then changed to the other. I think that the PFA approved plans have the single jury strut, as opposed to the official BHP plans, which do not show jury struts at all. (Although they are recommended). As for the best point to attach the jury strut, yes, the mid point would provide the best location to avoid buckling, but as Jack pointed out, the midpoint would be a node, and if vibration was to occur at the correct frequency, you could potentially get into harmonic vibration, which can be a bad thing in a structure (and a good thing in a musical instrument). Google the Tacoma Narrows Bridge if you aren't familiar with the concept. Making your attach point just a little off of the midpoint should be enough to avoid problems. Bill C


    Message 36


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    Time: 02:47:47 PM PST US
    From: Rcaprd@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Jury struts
    In a message dated 12/20/2006 3:55:15 PM Central Standard Time, HelsperSew@aol.com writes: Addressing the subject of placement of the jury struts: My eyeball engineering and gut feeling says that harmonic vibration of the struts would not be a factor in a slow vehicle such as the Piet. Dan, Harmonics Certainly IS a factor in the Pietenpol. The engine causes vibrations, as well as the slipstream. I've experienced short negative G's that Mike C. spoke about, and Jack P. gave a good explanation as to why the Jury Struts are NOT in the middle of the Lift Struts. Jury struts Should be used on both the for and aft lift struts. Here is some pics of how I did mine: http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html A high speed connection would be advised, because there are so many pictures. Scroll down through, and you'll see the construction of the entire wing. Chuck G. NX770CG


    Message 37


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    Time: 02:50:32 PM PST US
    From: Rcaprd@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Funk piet and Riblett airfoil
    In a message dated 12/18/2006 12:38:59 PM Central Standard Time, flyboy_120@hotmail.com writes: I saw Mr. Lowell's piet climb out at Brodhead too, but thought it's great performance was just because of the large diameter prop that he had on the big radial engine. ......Ed G. You would be correct, Ed.


    Message 38


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    Time: 04:31:52 PM PST US
    From: PIETLARS29@wmconnect.com
    Subject: Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    Hi, I used the Skytek large struts and found it was simple enough to run a # 10 bolt through the strut to hold a stainlrss steel angle to which I bolted the jury strut. I used a very short piece of the 1" aluminum bar stock which matches the internal 'flats' of the the large strut to back the hole site, I drilled a hole through the block and it makes for a solid mount for the strut connection. Looks OK too . Lou Larsen (its 78 here in the middle of Florida)


    Message 39


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    Time: 05:12:56 PM PST US
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
    From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com>
    How you attach the jury strut to the main strut is less important than where. The purpose of the jury strut is to avoid vibration in the main strut, All materials have a point where vibration becomes harmonic and destruction follows. To avoid harmonic vibration DO NOT place the jury strut at the halfway point. Place it "off - center" (4 " in or out does not matter). On how to attach the jury strut, look at any Cub, Champ or Citabria. There many ways to do it right. Hans


    Message 40


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    Time: 07:47:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Don's post on Riblett pitching moment
    From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com>
    In my experiences in talking with other Piet builders/pilots then going on to build and fly my own I have come up with these couple of ideas. And I'm only saying this to try to avoid someone else's heartache. I'm not trying to rain on someone else's experimenting parade. (If there is such a thing) Lots of plan changes + lots of extra weight = lots of dissapointment Little plan changes + little or no extra weight = little or no dissapointment I know it sounds corny, but the more Piet pilots you meet the more you will see this. Don Emch Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82795#82795


    Message 41


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    Time: 08:14:05 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Model Pietenpol
    From: n925wb1@aol.com
    Glenn, You could cover it with anything you'd like. Litespan, tissue, So-Lite (iron-on film), or any other light weight material would work just fine. I'd bet that dope and tissue would give the most authentic look, though. -Wayne www.taildraggersinc.com -----Original Message----- From: glennthomas@flyingwood.com Sent: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 2:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model Pietenpol It's funny. I bought that Dumas kit about 2 years ago. I went online for some kit bashing ideas and ended up consumed with the idea of building the real deal. Never would have thought that model could have had moved me into the direction it has but I'm glad all the same. Real plane - almost half the ribs done. Model - still in box. I've been thinking about building it lately. Do you cover it with Litespan or tissue? It will be my first electric. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82745#82745 ________________________________________________________________________


    Message 42


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    Time: 09:01:12 PM PST US
    From: "Greg Bacon" <gbacon67@hughes.net>
    Subject: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method - Thanks
    Guys! I greatly appreciate all of your input and the additional info on jury struts. There are many ways to attach them, as I've seen from my 4 visits to Brodhead. It's always worthwhile to listen to experienced opinions and see examples. By the way, the Mountain Piet wing repair is coming along nicely. Most of the woodwork is completed. My goal is to begin the covering process in January 2007. I have the Poly Fiber manual and the introduction kit to play with while I'm waiting for T88 to cure. This is a lot of fun. I can see myself building a whole plane someday. But for now, the goal is to get John's Mountain beauty back in the air. I do intend to fly to Brodhead in July '07. Cheers! Greg Bacon Prairie Home, MO




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