Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:49 AM - fuselage gussetts (Robin HART)
2. 03:47 AM - Re: fuselage gussetts (Peter W Johnson)
3. 03:53 AM - Re: fuselage gussetts (Skip-Cinda Gadd)
4. 04:07 AM - Re: fuselage gussetts ()
5. 04:38 AM - lost it! (Gene Beenenga)
6. 05:22 AM - Re: lost it! (Bill Church)
7. 05:54 AM - Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Greg Bacon)
8. 07:04 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Bill Church)
9. 07:14 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (DJ Vegh)
10. 08:54 AM - Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Oscar Zuniga)
11. 09:03 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
12. 09:15 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
13. 09:26 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Jeff Boatright)
14. 09:38 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
15. 09:52 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (HelsperSew@aol.com)
16. 10:08 AM - Re: Cold weather head gear (Rob Stapleton)
17. 10:33 AM - Re: fuselage gussetts (Rick Holland)
18. 11:13 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
19. 11:46 AM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (HelsperSew@aol.com)
20. 12:00 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (HelsperSew@aol.com)
21. 12:01 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
22. 12:04 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method ()
23. 12:07 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Jack T. Textor)
24. 12:15 PM - diesel Piet (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
25. 12:33 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (pietflyr)
26. 12:53 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Jeff Boatright)
27. 01:35 PM - diesel Piet (Oscar Zuniga)
28. 01:48 PM - Re: Model Pietenpol (Glenn Thomas)
29. 01:49 PM - Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Oscar Zuniga)
30. 01:53 PM - Jury struts (HelsperSew@aol.com)
31. 01:53 PM - strut harmonics (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
32. 02:09 PM - Re: Riblett airfoil (Tim Willis)
33. 02:11 PM - one man's jury strut attach method (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
34. 02:31 PM - Re: diesel Piet (Peter W Johnson)
35. 02:38 PM - Re: diesel Piet (Bill Church)
36. 02:47 PM - Re: Jury struts (Rcaprd@aol.com)
37. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: Funk piet and Riblett airfoil (Rcaprd@aol.com)
38. 04:31 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (PIETLARS29@wmconnect.com)
39. 05:12 PM - Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method (Hans Vander Voort)
40. 07:47 PM - Re: Don's post on Riblett pitching moment (Don Emch)
41. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Model Pietenpol (n925wb1@aol.com)
42. 09:01 PM - Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method - Thanks Guys! (Greg Bacon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | fuselage gussetts |
I am slowly gathering the courage to begin Piet construction in ernest by following
Bingelis' advice and starting with a mockup. As the fuselage sides start
to take shape on the bench, I have come across the first of many opportunities
to exhibit my technical inadequacy. As I understand it, the plans call for gussett
plates on both inboard and outboard surfaces of the fuselage sides. This
would imply than the cross members between the fuselage sides are glued to
the inboard surfaces of the gussett plates, rather than the inboard surfaces of
the spruce longerons themselves. Is this how others have interpreted the same
construction detail or am I missing something? It occurred to me that gluing
to the ply might be weaker than gluing directly to the spruce. Happy to be
told otherwise. I'd like to get these details clear in my mind before cutting
expensive sitka; I'm sure esteemed list members will understand!
On a separate note I would like to congratulate Peter from Wonthaggi on the first
flights of VH-UFZ. VH-PTN (as close as I could get to a rego similar to the
designer's name!) is around a decade behind you! Will try to get over to Vic
to have closer look in the new year, assuming I'm not imposing unduly on your
time.
Thanks to all.
Rob Hart, PhD
Adjunct Associate Professor
School of Exercise, Biomedical and Health Sciences
Edith Cowan University
P: +61 8 6461 9404
F: +61 8 6461 9499
Message 2
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| Subject: | fuselage gussetts |
Robin,
Its the gusset that adds the strength, not necessarily the glue on the
bracing members. I put gussets on both sides of the fuse, glued the bracing
members to them and then added gussets to the longeron/bracing members.
You are more than welcome to come and visit.
Check out the web site (http://www.cpc-world.com) for lots of pictures of
the construction.
Cheers
Peter.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin HART
Sent: Wednesday, 20 December 2006 8:48 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuselage gussetts
I am slowly gathering the courage to begin Piet construction in ernest by
following Bingelis' advice and starting with a mockup. As the fuselage
sides start to take shape on the bench, I have come across the first of many
opportunities to exhibit my technical inadequacy. As I understand it, the
plans call for gussett plates on both inboard and outboard surfaces of the
fuselage sides. This would imply than the cross members between the
fuselage sides are glued to the inboard surfaces of the gussett plates,
rather than the inboard surfaces of the spruce longerons themselves. Is this
how others have interpreted the same construction detail or am I missing
something? It occurred to me that gluing to the ply might be weaker than
gluing directly to the spruce. Happy to be told otherwise. I'd like to get
these details clear in my mind before cutting expensive sitka; I'm sure
esteemed list members will understand!
On a separate note I would like to congratulate Peter from Wonthaggi on the
first flights of VH-UFZ. VH-PTN (as close as I could get to a rego similar
to the designer's name!) is around a decade behind you! Will try to get
over to Vic to have closer look in the new year, assuming I'm not imposing
unduly on your time.
Thanks to all.
Rob Hart, PhD
Adjunct Associate Professor
School of Exercise, Biomedical and Health Sciences
Edith Cowan University
P: +61 8 6461 9404
F: +61 8 6461 9499
--
1:17 PM
Message 3
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| Subject: | fuselage gussetts |
Hi Rob,
> [Original Message]
> From: Robin HART <robin.hart@ecu.edu.au>
> This would imply than the cross members between the fuselage sides are
glued to the inboard surfaces of the gussett plates, rather than the
inboard surfaces of the spruce
>longerons themselves.
Correct, glue the cross members to the gusset plates.
> It occurred to me that gluing to the ply might be weaker than gluing
directly to the spruce.
The gusset gives the joint almost all of it's strength, a butt joint by
itself is not very strong. Do a couple tests with scrap wood and see for
yourself.
Skip
Message 4
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| Subject: | fuselage gussetts |
The real courage comes when ya hav ta get in er and fly.That's when the
mouth drys up and other parts of your body
pucker!!!!!!HEEEEE,HEEEE!Looking forward to hearing when you fly!!!!
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin
HART
Sent: December 20, 2006 4:48 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuselage gussetts
<robin.hart@ecu.edu.au>
I am slowly gathering the courage to begin Piet construction in ernest
by following Bingelis' advice and starting with a mockup. As the
fuselage sides start to take shape on the bench, I have come across the
first of many opportunities to exhibit my technical inadequacy. As I
understand it, the plans call for gussett plates on both inboard and
outboard surfaces of the fuselage sides. This would imply than the
cross members between the fuselage sides are glued to the inboard
surfaces of the gussett plates, rather than the inboard surfaces of the
spruce longerons themselves. Is this how others have interpreted the
same construction detail or am I missing something? It occurred to me
that gluing to the ply might be weaker than gluing directly to the
spruce. Happy to be told otherwise. I'd like to get these details
clear in my mind before cutting expensive sitka; I'm sure esteemed list
members will understand!
On a separate note I would like to congratulate Peter from Wonthaggi on
the first flights of VH-UFZ. VH-PTN (as close as I could get to a rego
similar to the designer's name!) is around a decade behind you! Will
try to get over to Vic to have closer look in the new year, assuming I'm
not imposing unduly on your time.
Thanks to all.
Rob Hart, PhD
Adjunct Associate Professor
School of Exercise, Biomedical and Health Sciences
Edith Cowan University
P: +61 8 6461 9404
F: +61 8 6461 9499
Message 5
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once more, please give me the email/web page sources for Piet (and it had other
models) models RC and others
thanks, Ken
Message 6
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Gene,
The model I have to build is a kit, rather than plans. It includes
plans, but the plans are not available seperately.
The model is made by Dumas. The webpage is
http://www.dumasestore.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=50_63
Or you can buy from Tower Hobbies
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXBDG9&P=0
Or, for a set of plans, there is a set available. DJ Vegh posted the
plans for his 1/7 scale model on the Mykitplane site
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=7
Hope that helps.
Bill
Message 7
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
Gentlemen,
Many piet builders have used the method of attaching the jury strut to
the flying strut with a metal band wrapped around the flying strut.
This is the method I plan to use. I'll be using the large aluminum
Skytek struts similar to Larry William's bird. What materials are used
for the band? If you have a close up photo of your fab job, please send
them to me at gbacon67@hughes.net
Thanks guys!
Merry Christmas.
Greg Bacon
Prairie Home, MO
Message 8
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
Greg,
Here's a link to a picture I took at Brodhead, of Ken Perkins' jury
strut attachment strap.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=bhead050133
.
JPG&PhotoID=3182
Like everything else on Ken's plane, it's very nicely done. I think
Ken's plane has steel lift struts, not aluminum.
Looks to me like a band of stainless steel, but I could be wrong.
Bill C.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
I plan to insert a solid aluminum bar about 1.50" long into the
alumiunum strut where the jury strut mounts will be. I'll then drill
out 3/16" for an AN43 eyebolt. I'll attach the jury struts to those
eyebolts.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Bacon
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 6:53 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
Gentlemen,
Many piet builders have used the method of attaching the jury strut to
the flying strut with a metal band wrapped around the flying strut.
This is the method I plan to use. I'll be using the large aluminum
Skytek struts similar to Larry William's bird. What materials are used
for the band? If you have a close up photo of your fab job, please send
them to me at gbacon67@hughes.net
Thanks guys!
Merry Christmas.
Greg Bacon
Prairie Home, MO
Message 10
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
Besides the vertical jury struts, most installations that I've seen (as in
NX41CC) also include fore-and-aft stiffener between the verticals. A
beautiful example is John Dilatush's "Mountain Piet", which was done
somewhat like DJ is talking about doing except John's struts were steel and
he welded in a bushing through a hole in the streamline tubing, then used an
eyebolt to secure the struts to. Photo is the third one from the bottom at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora
http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
Message 11
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
I used 4130 steel cut to spec as per the drawings;bent and drilled by a
machinist.He also welded on the vertical piece for the downward strut
attachment.The cross piece attached at the same point as the downward
piece but if you so desire it can be cut shorter and attach at the bolt
that holds the bracket on the main strut.Actually in looking at it closr
now I think it would have been better had I used the second method of
attaching the cross piece at the bolt holding the bracket because it
would put less stress on the weld point of the vertical connection.You
can make out some of the parts if you blow up the desired area on the
computer.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Bacon
Sent: December 20, 2006 8:53 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
Gentlemen,
Many piet builders have used the method of attaching the jury strut to
the flying strut with a metal band wrapped around the flying strut.
This is the method I plan to use. I'll be using the large aluminum
Skytek struts similar to Larry William's bird. What materials are used
for the band? If you have a close up photo of your fab job, please send
them to me at gbacon67@hughes.net
Thanks guys!
Merry Christmas.
Greg Bacon
Prairie Home, MO
Message 12
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
I noticed also that his attachments are further up the main strut making
his jury struts shorter.He would be attaching at a different point on
the wing.I'm wondering what difference if any this would make in the
wings performance?It certainly would save you in material if this was
not a problem.Very nice clean looking job though.Matter of fact his
whole plane is a work of art.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
Zuniga
Sent: December 20, 2006 11:54 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method
<taildrags@hotmail.com>
Besides the vertical jury struts, most installations that I've seen (as
in
NX41CC) also include fore-and-aft stiffener between the verticals. A
beautiful example is John Dilatush's "Mountain Piet", which was done
somewhat like DJ is talking about doing except John's struts were steel
and
he welded in a bushing through a hole in the streamline tubing, then
used an
eyebolt to secure the struts to. Photo is the third one from the
bottom at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora
http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
Message 13
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
What is the purpose of the cross piece? My plane does not have them,
but we've been thinking about adding them "just because".
At 12:03 PM -0500 12/20/06, <harvey.rule@bell.ca> wrote:
>I used 4130 steel cut to spec as per the drawings;bent and drilled
>by a machinist.He also welded on the vertical piece for the downward
>strut attachment.The cross piece attached at the same point as the
>downward piece but if you so desire it can be cut shorter and attach
>at the bolt that holds the bracket on the main strut.Actually in
>looking at it closr now I think it would have been better had I used
>the second method of attaching the cross piece at the bolt holding
>the bracket because it would put less stress on the weld point of
>the vertical connection.You can make out some of the parts if you
>blow up the desired area on the computer.
--
_____________________________________________________________
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri@emory.edu
Message 14
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
I imagine that they are for braising the main struts at the =BD way
point.Just a guess.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: December 20, 2006 12:31 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach
method
What is the purpose of the cross piece? My plane does not have them, but
we've been thinking about adding them "just because".
At 12:03 PM -0500 12/20/06, <harvey.rule@bell.ca> wrote:
I used 4130 steel cut to spec as per the drawings;bent and drilled by a
machinist.He also welded on the vertical piece for the downward strut
attachment.The cross piece attached at the same point as the downward
piece but if you so desire it can be cut shorter and attach at the bolt
that holds the bracket on the main strut.Actually in looking at it closr
now I think it would have been better had I used the second method of
attaching the cross piece at the bolt holding the bracket because it
would put less stress on the weld point of the vertical connection.You
can make out some of the parts if you blow up the desired area on the
computer.
--
_____________________________________________________________
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri@emory.edu
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
Guys
The only reason for the jury struts are to keep the main struts from bowing
on a hard landing or during negative G's. The cross braces are there to keep
the main struts from bowing sideways (forward and back)
during these times.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Cold weather head gear |
Well if you do try to fly it up the Alaska Highway let me know, I will send
you some helpful info like the Airmen's Logbook and a Milepost!
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gbowen@ptialaska.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cold weather head gear
<gbowen@ptialaska.net>
Rob,
Come on down, I'm in the phone book. My Piete will remain in FL, Homer
only gives me about 5 mos./yr flying weather. Except this summer it was
only about 3 mos. If it wasn't for the 22 gal tank and limited range, I'd
think about flying the Alcan someday but probably if plane is to make it to
AK it will be on a trailer.
Gordon Bowen
Original Message:
-----------------
From: foto@alaska.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cold weather head gear
When I get my Piet done I will fly down from Anchorage!
Rob Stapleton
www.eaa42.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "gbowen@ptialaska.net" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cold weather head gear
> <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
> Gene,
> You gotta miss AK. RE headgear, I have an older buddy that is
good
> withelectronics, he took a $100 full face shield motorcycle
helmet and
> installed a speaker in one ear, then hooked up to his handheld
with
> push to
> talk button. I've tried it, but have a hard time understanding air
> trafficwith one speaker, could be just his wiring. Suspect the
> fleece lined cap
> from airspruce would work on any type of headset. DC's keep
the
> ears warm
> and the wind battering you get in an open cockpit plane is
> minimized with
> the cap.
> Gotta a place in Homer AK for 9 mos. year. Piete flyers welcome
to
> comevisit.
> Gordon Bowen
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Gene & Tammy zharvey@bellsouth.net
> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:37:25 -0600
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cold weather head gear
>
>
> <zharvey@bellsouth.net>
> Gordon,
> Spent most of my life in Alaska (1960 to 1985 full time and up
> until this
> year half time as a captain for Alaska Clean Seas in the Arctic.)
> so I'm
> use
> to being out in the cold but this humidity in the south is killling
> me. I
> have looked at the hats in Airspruce but don't own a set of David
> Clarksand
> don't want to spend the money to get a set. I was hoping
someone
> may have
> made a helmet and still had the pattern. I agree on the motor
> cycle
> goggles. They look great!
> Thanks
> Gene
> N502R
> ----- > -----------------
> >>
> >
--------------------------------------------------------
----------
> --
> > mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> > http://mail2web.com/ .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------
------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
>
> _-
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==================
> _-
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage gussetts |
Rob
This is one of many questions that will occur to you and things you will
learn by building the mockup. I studied the plans for weeks before starting
and the question you mentioned never occurred to me. One other thing that
surprised me when building my mockup was the bottom front cross member
doesn't contact the longerons OR the ply gussets, it can't because the lower
engine mount fitting goes against the gusset. Have fun.
Rick
On 12/20/06, Robin HART <robin.hart@ecu.edu.au> wrote:
>
>
> I am slowly gathering the courage to begin Piet construction in ernest by
> following Bingelis' advice and starting with a mockup. As the fuselage
> sides start to take shape on the bench, I have come across the first of many
> opportunities to exhibit my technical inadequacy. As I understand it, the
> plans call for gussett plates on both inboard and outboard surfaces of the
> fuselage sides. This would imply than the cross members between the
> fuselage sides are glued to the inboard surfaces of the gussett plates,
> rather than the inboard surfaces of the spruce longerons themselves. Is this
> how others have interpreted the same construction detail or am I missing
> something? It occurred to me that gluing to the ply might be weaker than
> gluing directly to the spruce. Happy to be told otherwise. I'd like to get
> these details clear in my mind before cutting expensive sitka; I'm sure
> esteemed list members will understand!
>
> On a separate note I would like to congratulate Peter from Wonthaggi on
> the first flights of VH-UFZ. VH-PTN (as close as I could get to a rego
> similar to the designer's name!) is around a decade behind you! Will try to
> get over to Vic to have closer look in the new year, assuming I'm not
> imposing unduly on your time.
>
> Thanks to all.
>
> Rob Hart, PhD
> Adjunct Associate Professor
> School of Exercise, Biomedical and Health Sciences
> Edith Cowan University
> P: +61 8 6461 9404
> F: +61 8 6461 9499
>
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 18
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
I always thought jury struts were there to stop wing warping.Things I've
heard around the old guys.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
HelsperSew@aol.com
Sent: December 20, 2006 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach
method
Guys
The only reason for the jury struts are to keep the main struts from
bowing on a hard landing or during negative G's. The cross braces are
there to keep the main struts from bowing sideways (forward and back)
during these times.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
How would the wings possibly warp with two fixed attach points, two fixed
length main struts, and two stiff spars?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
The strut material BP used was very stiff and reinforced if you study the
cross section, and did not need the jury struts. This strut material is not
available any more in these modern times, thus, the need for jury struts.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
High Flight Articles
Volume II No. 4 Page 69 - 1982
________________________________
JURY STRUTS: Whazzat?
By Don Langer, IMAA 1020
You probably know about flying and landing wires on bipes and ancient
monos. Most scale builders include these for looks only. I recommend
they be made totally functional on any Quarter-size or larger model.
The Jury Strut serves nearly the same purpose as the landing wires in
that it insures the integrity of the wing during negative "G"
situations. The wing strut alone is fine for positive "G" loads if
properly set up; but without a functional Jury Strut that same wing
strut is prone to bowing and snapping when air pressure (or a small
child) pushes down on your wing.
A 20 to 30 inch 1/2" x 1/4" spruce (or other equally feeble) strut is
just fine for those who fly straight and level with a totally
vibration-free engine... and every landing. However, some of us do fly
in a somewhat different manner and must concern ourselves with struts
that work under both tension and compression.
Not less than one of the popular jumbo kit manufacturer leaves this
lifesaving device completely off, or merely includes it for scale
appearance only. Current production kits may have improved in this area,
but the Howard DGA-6 (Mister Mulligan) I built two years ago showed
"fake" Jury Struts on the plans; the upper ends were to be run up
through small plywood plates in the underside of the wing.
The Citabria kit I just finished didn't show a thing. I've seen a
beautiful J-3 Cub assembled and flown with the "fake" Jury Struts
missing those little holes, which caused an unsightly and dangerous
half-inch bow in the struts.
As in skinning cats and mounting canopies, there are probably a thousand
and one ways to set up struts and Jury Struts. Here's how I've done it
on two different airplanes.
1. DuBro LG Straps for 1/8" gear (DuBro #238) - 8 ea.
2. * Goldberg LG Straps (Goldberg #LGS-50) - 8 ea.
3. ** Machine screws, 2-56x3/8" w/blind nuts - 16 ea.
4. 1/8" piano wire (if not supplied in kit)
5. 1/8" ply scrap (not lite-ply)
* * Used to stand off Jury Strut ends 1/16" from covering
material.
* ** Can be replaced with #2 or #3 x 3/8" wood screws if you dare.
And please, Hot-Stuff the pilot holes if you do.
I stole this from the internet;can't take credit.it explains better the
reason for jury struts.Wing warp was probably the wrong term to use
although I have seen it actually happen with some ultralights.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
Besides that the Government officials want us to use them.We don't argue
with these folks since they say whether or not we fly.
Do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
HelsperSew@aol.com
Sent: December 20, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach
method
The strut material BP used was very stiff and reinforced if you study
the cross section, and did not need the jury struts. This strut
material is not available any more in these modern times, thus, the need
for jury struts.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
Dan, it's something to watch. On a model I had, high wing, with struts
and a nine foot wingspan. The first flight was exciting. I checked it
carefully and didn't notice the warped wing. After take off, it took
full aileron to maintain level flight. I was just happy to get it on
the ground.
Jack
www.textors.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach
method
How would the wings possibly warp with two fixed attach points, two
fixed length main struts, and two stiff spars?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 24
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http://www.wilksch.com/
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |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=
Message 26
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
Harvey,
Thanks for the jury strut article,
Jeff
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Ophthalmology
Emory University School of Medicine
Atlanta, GA 30322
Editor-in-Chief
Molecular Vision
http://www.molvis.org/
Message 27
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G-BUXK, the Piet in the photos on the website that Mike posted, appears to
have jury struts on the front main wing struts only, none on the aft struts
and none connecting fore and aft struts.
Interesting.
The failure mode that we're trying to prevent by using jury struts is
buckling of the struts under negative-G loading, such as in a very hard
landing, a microburst event (!), or (heaven forbid) a negative-G aerobatic
maneuver. In compression, the struts are considered to be "slender"
structural elements given their dimensions and stiffness, thus the primary
buckling failure mode would be best prevented by installing the jury struts
at the midpoint of the strut length. I guess installing the jury struts
further out (making them shorter) would be better than not having them at
all, but the question is, "why?" The amount of material saved by making
them a few inches shorter would be insignificant.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN Shopping
Sales & Deals
http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0639
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Model Pietenpol |
It's funny. I bought that Dumas kit about 2 years ago. I went online for some
kit bashing ideas and ended up consumed with the idea of building the real deal.
Never would have thought that model could have had moved me into the direction
it has but I'm glad all the same. Real plane - almost half the ribs done.
Model - still in box. I've been thinking about building it lately.
Do you cover it with Litespan or tissue? It will be my first electric.
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82745#82745
Message 29
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
There is a picture of Steve Eldredge's Piet at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/SteveE.jpg
Steve's attachments seem to be very simple and clean. Anybody seen them up
close to see how they are done?
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
Type your favorite song. Get a customized station. Try MSN Radio powered
by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
Message 30
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Addressing the subject of placement of the jury struts: My eyeball
engineering and gut feeling says that harmonic vibration of the struts would not
be a
factor in a slow vehicle such as the Piet.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 31
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I've noted that at various power settings my wing struts vibrate so I
just adjust the power a titch when I see that going on. A local
guru (another authority like me---yeah right !) suggested that I tie a
lead fishing sinker to the bottom of where my jury struts attach
and I was going to do that just to see but never did. What the
heck--it would be a good excuse to go flying and physics-wise his
suggestion made sense. In real life flying I encounter my worst
negative g loading on the airplane on hot bumpy days when the
jarring is bad enough to jerk the stick out from my hand. I don't have
a g-meter in the plane but I'm sure those wing know and thank
God for those itty bitty jury struts out there---esp. for the most
dangerous maneuver I perform-----The landing.
Mike C.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Riblett airfoil |
Thanks to all for the input on this. All of it is good, sound, and appreciated.
The best solution is for me to lose weight. It not only leads to a far better
plane, but a far better and longer life. I have not found this very easy to do.
I appreciate the several posts on LG, yaw and other handling issues from a farther-forward
engine. LG positioning had looked marginal at the extremes, and I
had considered needing more rudder, but not to the degree expressed from real-world
usage in a Piet.
Chuck, I will proceed slowly in my case on the change to Riblett or anything else
radical. I have an OK life right now and don't want to worsen or end it from
pushing any envelope.
Clif, thanks for the formula. I ran it, inputting a max. of 1225#, right at the
sport pilot limit, and AS A WORST CASE-- nothing I want to do. It solved for
47 hp reqd. with a 28 ft. wingspan. The 47hp is 73% of the A-65's nominal figure.
In these ranges, each foot of added wingspan takes off 1hp min.reqd..
Each 100 pounds off gross weight takes off 5 hp from minimum required hp. Once
again, it proves lighter is better. Someone may want to run their own numbers
on their craft, either to check me, or even better, to share them.
Thanks & regards,
Tim in ce. TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
>Sent: Dec 19, 2006 9:20 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett airfoil
>
>
>Not quite. It's designed for a smaller engine.
>Shorter wing.
>Shorter fuse.
>Lighter.
>
>When dealing with engines and weight you should
>REALLY study these formulie and punch some
>numbers in. Remember, the real HP of Lycs and
>Continentals is a minimum of 20% less than rated
>and the "A" put out 36 hp.
>
>http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part5/Standards/549/sub-b.htm#549.109
>
>Clif
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Leon Stefan" <lshutks@webtv.net>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:06 PM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett airfoil
>
>
>>
>> Tim Willis: Hans sort of has a good point, but even better how about
>> eliminating the rear cockpit all together, At 270 lbs I doubt your Piet
>> could ever carry a passenger very well at all. (no offense meant) I've
>> always thought a more practical Sky Scout is an Aircamper with only a
>> front cockpit. Leon S. In Ks. anticipating another big winter storm.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 12/19/2006 1:17 PM
>>
>>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | one man's jury strut attach method |
See attached photo for how I installed my jury struts. I copied,
plagiarized, and otherwise blatantly stole an age-tested design
that was used by Aeronca Champ aircraft.
Mike C.
see attachment
Message 34
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Oscar,
The Piets built to the Jim Wills UK plans only have one jury strut (as does
mine).
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
http://www.cpc-world.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga
Sent: Thursday, 21 December 2006 8:35 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: diesel Piet
G-BUXK, the Piet in the photos on the website that Mike posted, appears to
have jury struts on the front main wing struts only, none on the aft struts
and none connecting fore and aft struts.
Interesting.
The failure mode that we're trying to prevent by using jury struts is
buckling of the struts under negative-G loading, such as in a very hard
landing, a microburst event (!), or (heaven forbid) a negative-G aerobatic
maneuver. In compression, the struts are considered to be "slender"
structural elements given their dimensions and stiffness, thus the primary
buckling failure mode would be best prevented by installing the jury struts
at the midpoint of the strut length. I guess installing the jury struts
further out (making them shorter) would be better than not having them at
all, but the question is, "why?" The amount of material saved by making
them a few inches shorter would be insignificant.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN Shopping
Sales & Deals
http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0639
--
1:17 PM
--
1:17 PM
Message 35
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Oscar,
Pretty much all of the British Pietenpols seem to have only the one jury
strut on the front strut. Check out the photo gallery at
http://www.pietenpolclub.co.uk/
One exception is Arthur Mason's G-ADRA, which has photos with both
configurations (single and double jury struts). Looks like he tried one,
then changed to the other.
I think that the PFA approved plans have the single jury strut, as
opposed to the official BHP plans, which do not show jury struts at all.
(Although they are recommended).
As for the best point to attach the jury strut, yes, the mid point would
provide the best location to avoid buckling, but as Jack pointed out,
the midpoint would be a node, and if vibration was to occur at the
correct frequency, you could potentially get into harmonic vibration,
which can be a bad thing in a structure (and a good thing in a musical
instrument). Google the Tacoma Narrows Bridge if you aren't familiar
with the concept. Making your attach point just a little off of the
midpoint should be enough to avoid problems.
Bill C
Message 36
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In a message dated 12/20/2006 3:55:15 PM Central Standard Time,
HelsperSew@aol.com writes:
Addressing the subject of placement of the jury struts: My eyeball
engineering and gut feeling says that harmonic vibration of the struts would not
be a
factor in a slow vehicle such as the Piet.
Dan,
Harmonics Certainly IS a factor in the Pietenpol. The engine causes
vibrations, as well as the slipstream. I've experienced short negative G's that
Mike
C. spoke about, and Jack P. gave a good explanation as to why the Jury Struts
are NOT in the middle of the Lift Struts. Jury struts Should be used on both
the for and aft lift struts.
Here is some pics of how I did mine:
http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html
A high speed connection would be advised, because there are so many pictures.
Scroll down through, and you'll see the construction of the entire wing.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Funk piet and Riblett airfoil |
In a message dated 12/18/2006 12:38:59 PM Central Standard Time,
flyboy_120@hotmail.com writes:
I saw Mr. Lowell's piet climb out at Brodhead
too, but thought it's great performance was just because of the large
diameter prop that he had on the big radial engine. ......Ed G.
You would be correct, Ed.
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
Hi,
I used the Skytek large struts and found it was simple enough to run a # 10
bolt through the strut to hold a stainlrss steel angle to which I bolted the
jury strut. I used a very short piece of the 1" aluminum bar stock which
matches the internal 'flats' of the the large strut to back the hole site, I
drilled a hole through the block and it makes for a solid mount for the strut
connection. Looks OK too .
Lou Larsen (its 78 here in the middle of Florida)
Message 39
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method |
How you attach the jury strut to the main strut is less important than
where.
The purpose of the jury strut is to avoid vibration in the main strut,
All materials have a point where vibration becomes harmonic and destruction
follows.
To avoid harmonic vibration DO NOT place the jury strut at the halfway
point.
Place it "off - center" (4 " in or out does not matter).
On how to attach the jury strut, look at any Cub, Champ or Citabria.
There many ways to do it right.
Hans
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Don's post on Riblett pitching moment |
In my experiences in talking with other Piet builders/pilots then going on to build
and fly my own I have come up with these couple of ideas. And I'm only saying
this to try to avoid someone else's heartache. I'm not trying to rain on
someone else's experimenting parade. (If there is such a thing)
Lots of plan changes + lots of extra weight = lots of dissapointment
Little plan changes + little or no extra weight = little or no dissapointment
I know it sounds corny, but the more Piet pilots you meet the more you will see
this.
Don Emch
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82795#82795
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Model Pietenpol |
Glenn,
You could cover it with anything you'd like. Litespan, tissue, So-Lite (iron-on
film), or any other light weight material would work just fine. I'd bet that
dope and tissue would give the most authentic look, though.
-Wayne
www.taildraggersinc.com
-----Original Message-----
From: glennthomas@flyingwood.com
Sent: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 2:48 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model Pietenpol
It's funny. I bought that Dumas kit about 2 years ago. I went online for some
kit bashing ideas and ended up consumed with the idea of building the real deal.
Never would have thought that model could have had moved me into the direction
it has but I'm glad all the same. Real plane - almost half the ribs done.
Model - still in box. I've been thinking about building it lately.
Do you cover it with Litespan or tissue? It will be my first electric.
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82745#82745
________________________________________________________________________
Message 42
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| Subject: | Jury Strut - flying wing strut attach method - Thanks |
Guys!
I greatly appreciate all of your input and the additional info on jury
struts. There are many ways to attach them, as I've seen from my 4
visits to Brodhead. It's always worthwhile to listen to experienced
opinions and see examples.
By the way, the Mountain Piet wing repair is coming along nicely. Most
of the woodwork is completed. My goal is to begin the covering process
in January 2007. I have the Poly Fiber manual and the introduction kit
to play with while I'm waiting for T88 to cure. This is a lot of fun.
I can see myself building a whole plane someday. But for now, the goal
is to get John's Mountain beauty back in the air. I do intend to fly to
Brodhead in July '07.
Cheers!
Greg Bacon
Prairie Home, MO
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