Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:42 AM - Re: Piet video on YouTube (Gene and Tammy)
2. 05:45 AM - Re: what does Corky look like ? (Gene and Tammy)
3. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Tailwheel spring & Skid (Gene and Tammy)
4. 06:03 AM - Another wing stitching ? (gus notti)
5. 06:37 AM - Re: Another wing stitching ? (Rcaprd@aol.com)
6. 07:25 AM - Another wing stitching ? (Oscar Zuniga)
7. 07:49 AM - Re: Another wing stitching ? (Phillips, Jack)
8. 08:35 AM - Re: Another wing stitching ? (gus notti)
9. 01:05 PM - Re: Tailwheel spring & Skid (Don Emch)
10. 01:30 PM - E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (Tim Verthein)
11. 02:31 PM - Real Air Camper (Bill Church)
12. 03:43 PM - Re: Real Air Camper (DJ Vegh)
13. 04:49 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (gus notti)
14. 05:01 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (Jeff Boatright)
15. 05:37 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (Mike Volckmann)
16. 06:49 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) ()
17. 07:25 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (Gene and Tammy)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Piet video on YouTube |
Michael,
Thanks for the interesting report. I was really wondering about it.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: MICHAEL SILVIUS
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet video on YouTube
This plane was advertized for sale localy here in Manie last year and
I went to see it. Workmanship over all looked decent. It is side-by-each
seating but it is a tight squeze. Mother better be real tiny. I believe
I measured it at 34 inch wide at the elbows. It has a door of sorts on
the left side. Also has a shelf that runs along the bottom edge of the
panel that is a X brace beween the two sides of the fuselage. The
cabanes are canted inwards with no wing center section, though as best I
could tell it is a two piece wing. The word was that it is a bit hot to
handle with the short wings. I was also told that with the wider
frontal profile it is a bit dragier than she ought to be and could
actually use a bit more in the HP dept.
michael silvius
scarborough, maine
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
There's a video on YouTube of a side-by-side Piet (that's currently
for sale on Barnstormers) flying on a bit of a windy day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06_I-of-XhM
If the link doesn't work, just type wingit demo in the YouTube
search box.
The plane looks a little strange - wings look short (no center
section), cabanes similar to a Baby Ace, landing gear looks narrow, and
of course, the fuse is wider (duh).
Bill C
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: what does Corky look like ? |
Fits with the image I had in my mind. Corkey has to be a really "cool"
guy.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: what does Corky look like ?
Here is a picture of Corky, when he sat down for a minute, after
loading the 1942 Aeronca Defender. Not sure who that is with him... :)
he he he !!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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| Subject: | Re: Tailwheel spring & Skid |
Don, is that Gold Wing your?
Gene
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Another wing stitching ? |
One more quick question, does the original plans for the Air camper call for rib
stitching?
Would the FAA sign off if the wings were only glued with no other kind of attachments?
I'm thinking about buying this flying project, (yes N number back in 1991) however
when I asked the current owner if the fabric was rib stitched he said no,
(not sure he know's what to look for)
What are the guide lines requiring the stitching? Vse and Max weight...right?
Thanks
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: Another wing stitching ? |
In a message dated 2/2/2007 8:04:58 AM Central Standard Time,
gus_notti@yahoo.com writes:
One more quick question, does the original plans for the Air camper call for
rib stitching?
Would the FAA sign off if the wings were only glued with no other kind of
attachments?
I'm thinking about buying this flying project, (yes N number back in 1991)
however when I asked the current owner if the fabric was rib stitched he said
no, (not sure he know's what to look for)
What are the guide lines requiring the stitching? Vse and Max weight...right?
Thanks
The plans don't show anything about the covering process. Covering an
airplane is a whole seperate process, and isn't specific to any certain type, except
for Vne (which requires closer spacing of the rib stitches). The Stitts
process is what I used, and it calls out 3 1/2" spacing of the stitches, and in
the prop wash plus one rib, it calls out 2 1/2" spacing. I have a total of
about 500 stitches in my wing. You can easily see the stitches under the 2" tape.
I think Stitts suplies this document for sale, and should be closely
followed. I doubt if the FAA or a DAR would sign off on it, and I question how
it
got it's original Airworthyness Certificate. My guess is that it doesn't have
very many actual flight hours, for fear of the fabric coming off. The 1/2"
wide cap strips just simply doesn't have enough area to glue to, and I would also
suggest a close look at the ribs, to see if any of them are pulled sideways,
and possibly cracked, from the heat shrink process. It might even require a
re-cover job, which would risk destroying some ribs. After a very close
inspection inside the wing, if there is no damage, you could probaly remove the
paint along the ribs, stitch it, and put the 2" tape on top, then re-paint. It
amazes me why someone would cut corners in such a critical area. On the other
hand, maybe it actually does have stitches, and the current owner just doesn't
know what to look for.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 6
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| Subject: | Another wing stitching ? |
Gus; the requirement for rib stitching comes from the covering system
manufacturer (Poly-Fiber, etc.) as well as from best practices guidelines.
As mentioned in an earlier post, one Pieter feels that Hipec may be the only
manufacturer that does not require rib stitching. If you can determine the
covering system used on the airplane, that would help.
I would think that you could go back and do rib stitching by removing the
paint over the ribs, stitching after applying rib lace reinforcing tape over
the rib area, going over that with finishing tapes, and then refinishing the
new areas. Matter of fact, if the Stits method was used to cover the
aircraft, you don't even have to remove the paint and other finishes before
laying down the new work... they claim that all their components are
completely compatible with one another. However, it will probably be easier
to see through the wing fabric to do the rib stitching if you remove the
finishes over the ribs, down to bare fabric. It won't be as messy, either.
Like the man says, "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later". Somebody
didn't pay the man when the airplane was first covered ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Another wing stitching ? |
Regardless of the plans (they don't mention covering at all), the fabric
should be ribstitched. If the fabric is just glued to the capstrips,
the ribs are loaded in tension and are prone to failure. Ribstitching
(more properly called rib-lacing) loads the ribs in compression, where
they are much stronger. I know of a number of designs which call out
glued fabric rather than laced (the Osprey 2 amphibian comes to mind),
but in all cases, the rib cap is at least 2" wide, providing generous
area to glue to, and the rib itself is solid plywood - not a built up
truss rib. I wouldn't fly a Pietenpol with glued on fabric. Makes you
wonder what other corners got cut in the building process. Ribstitching
just doesn't take that long - about 12 hours per wing.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gus
notti
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another wing stitching ?
One more quick question, does the original plans for the Air camper call
for rib stitching?
Would the FAA sign off if the wings were only glued with no other kind
of attachments?
I'm thinking about buying this flying project, (yes N number back in
1991) however when I asked the current owner if the fabric was rib
stitched he said no, (not sure he know's what to look for)
What are the guide lines requiring the stitching? Vse and Max
weight...right?
Thanks
_____
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel
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A3NTg5BF9zAzI3MTk0ODEEcG9zAzIEc2VjA21haWx0YWdsaW5lBHNsawNxMS0wNw--%0d%0a
> to find your fit.
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Another wing stitching ? |
I'm going to go get the Pietenpol this weekend, I know what to look for with
a fabric covered airplane. If the wing ribs are not stitched I will ribstitch
them before I fly it,
NO IF AND BUTTS ABOUT IT!
( I have 2 many mouths to feed to have something stupid happen). I have over
a 1000 + hours all in tube and fabric planes I have never flown a fabric covered
plane with out the fabric being attached properly. I sure in the hell not starting
now.
I'm thinking the current owner don't know what to look for.
Yes if needed it will be an fairly easy job, no topcoat of paint is on the fabric,
it's through silver. I guess it's been flying that way since A/W was issused
in 1991.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Gus
---------------------------------
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Tailwheel spring & Skid |
Chuck,
Three-points come pretty easy, as long as you keep thinking, "hold it off, hold
it off, hold it off." If I give the tall gear/wheels a chance to touch first,
which is easy to do, I am guaranteed a bounce. It does have a fairly high
deck angle. Usually as long as I "hold it off, hold it off" on the second landing
it is usually slowed up enough to be at the right angle to touch all three.
I think that's the key. Sometimes if it's been a few weeks or so since
I've flown my brain seems to forget that it is kind of a steep three-point. If
my nose tank is full it seems to take a very conscious full pull back to my
stop to get the tail to touch with the mains. It is much easier when the tank
is at least a few gallons lower. Hard surface landings aren't my favorite, but
I've done some. Not too much different I guess, probably more psychological
than anything but I still don't like them. A cool thing is that the tires don't
chirp, it's more like a short howl to get them up to speed. Hard surface
takeoffs seem no different than grass.
Gene, no that's not my Goldwing. That picture was taken at Barber Airport.
Forrest Barber is the Goldwing guy. My dad is a big Goldwing groupie and I do
have to admit, it is one classy and nice to ride bike. He's had it all over
the country, with probably over 100,000 miles on it by now.
The good flying weather isn't too far off!
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=92422#92422
Message 10
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| Subject: | E-85 (was Fuel Tank) |
We have some guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair
cars....here's what I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the
same would apply:
Make darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is
alchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams,
etc..won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner,
so if you have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them
sealed, they'll probably start leaking.
You have higher octane, but less BTU's, so you'll lose a bit of power
and "mileage" but can use advanced timing and higher compression
(probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually make up for most
of the loss.
You will need to rejet the carb..you need everything richer.
And you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced a bit.
That's what I know from an old car perspective.
Tim in Bovey
>
> Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US
> From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank
>
>
> Beside having a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else
> would
> be required to make a Model A Piet E-85 compatible. ? Anyone? Leon S.
> Looking to the future.
>
==
You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor!
==
Get your own web address.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
Message 11
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For a chuckle, here's a photo of an air camper that really lives up to
its name.
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Real Air Camper |
love it! HA!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Real Air Camper
For a chuckle, here's a photo of an air camper that really lives up
to its name.
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) |
Why would you want too? E85 is a joke, it's not solving any energy issues just
creating more. I know that's a very hard truth but that's the way it is.
I'm a active ag producer, As a grower Bio-Diesel is the way to go after we start
producing small 4 cylinder motors like the Germans currently do. 50 + MPG
that where the potential lays!
Good luck. I know that's a BIG can of worms.....
Tim Verthein <minoxphotographer@yahoo.com> wrote:
We have some guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair
cars....here's what I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the
same would apply:
Make darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is
alchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams,
etc..won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner,
so if you have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them
sealed, they'll probably start leaking.
You have higher octane, but less BTU's, so you'll lose a bit of power
and "mileage" but can use advanced timing and higher compression
(probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually make up for most
of the loss.
You will need to rejet the carb..you need everything richer.
And you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced a bit.
That's what I know from an old car perspective.
Tim in Bovey
>
> Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US
> From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank
>
>
> Beside having a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else
> would
> be required to make a Model A Piet E-85 compatible. ? Anyone? Leon S.
> Looking to the future.
>
==
You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor!
==
Get your own web address.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
---------------------------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) |
I'm guessing you'd "want to" because it's simply dealing with
reality. Seasonally, autogas contains alcohol. If you don't have
access to avgas (as we don't at our little country strip, 2GA9), it's
something to deal with.
But man-o-man, would I love to be driving one of those
high-efficiency diesels on biodiesel. I'm 100% with you there.
Someone commented that Citgo doesn't lace it's juice with alcohol.
Does anyone know more about this?
Thanks,
Jeff
>Why would you want too? E85 is a joke, it's not solving any energy
>issues just creating more. I know that's a very hard truth but
>that's the way it is.
>I'm a active ag producer, As a grower Bio-Diesel is the way to go
>after we start producing small 4 cylinder motors like the Germans
>currently do. 50 + MPG that where the potential lays!
>
>
>Good luck. I know that's a BIG can of worms.....
>
>
>Tim Verthein <minoxphotographer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>We have some guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair
>cars....here's what I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the
>same would apply:
>
>Make darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is
>alchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams,
>etc..won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner,
>so if you have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them
>sealed, they'll probably start leaking.
>
>You have higher octane, but less BTU's, so you'll lose a bit of power
>and "mileage" but can use advanced timing and higher compression
>(probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually make up for most
>of the loss.
>
>You will need to rejet the carb..you need everything richer.
>
>And you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced a bit.
>
>That's what I know from an old car perspective.
>
>Tim in Bovey
>
>
>>
>> Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US
>> From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank
>>
>>
>> Beside having a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else
>> would
>> be required
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Ophthalmology
Emory University School of Medicine
Atlanta, GA 30322
Editor-in-Chief
Molecular Vision
http://www.molvis.org/
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) |
>From what I have been reading one burns 100 BTUs of natural gas to produce
80-120 BTUs of ethanol (from corn numbers change if you are using sugar can
e). Sounds like playing at being green while accomplishing nothing to get
to reduce the US's dependency on petroleum. I would agree that bio-diesel
run in small motors like the new VW bug shows a lot more promise.=0A =0AMik
e=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: gus notti <gus_notti@yahoo.co
m>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, February 2, 2007 5:47
:38 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank)=0A=0A=0AWhy woul
d you want too? E85 is a joke, it's not solving any energy issues just cre
ating more. I know that's a very hard truth but that's the way it is.=0AI'm
a active ag producer, As a grower Bio-Diesel is the way to go after we sta
rt producing small 4 cylinder motors like the Germans currently do. 50 + MP
G that where the potential lays!=0A =0A =0A =0AGood luck. I know that's a B
IG can of worms.....=0A=0A=0ATim Verthein <minoxphotographer@yahoo.com> wro
guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair=0Acars....here's w
hat I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the=0Asame would apply:
=0A=0AMake darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is=0Aa
lchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams,=0Aetc.
.won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner,=0Aso if y
ou have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them=0Asealed, they'l
l probably start leaking.=0A=0AYou have higher octane, but less BTU's, so y
ou'll lose a bit of power=0Aand "mileage" but can use advanced timing and h
igher compression=0A(probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually
make up for most=0Aof the loss.=0A=0AYou will need to rejet the carb..you n
eed everything richer.=0A=0AAnd you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced
a bit.=0A=0AThat's what I know from an old car perspective. =0A=0ATim in Bo
vey=0A=0A=0A> =0A> Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US=0A> From: lshutks@webtv.net (Le
on Stefan)=0A> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank=0A> =0A> =0A> Beside havi
ng a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else=0A> would=0A> be req
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) |
Popping open 12 oz of fish bait:
While I agree that bio-deisel has a lot of promise that may not be realized by
ethanol, the refining costs of ethanol are very simlar to the refining costs of
gasoline. Oil refineries run at about a 44% energy cost, meaning that it takes
about 100 BTUs to produce about 120-130 BTUs of gasoline. It doesn't matter,
in terms of energy used, what the fuel is that makes the heat that distills
the crude and pumps it around.
Ethanol certainly requires energy to make, but that energy can theoretically come
from ethanol, not just natural gas, or coal, or oil, or even buffalo chips.
The real tell-tale is going to be the cost of converting whiskey and government
subsidized plow-under into auto fuel, or the political costs of making the
sugar cane growers of Cuba wealthy, compared to the costs of keeping the mid-east
oil-producing nations in operation.
Mike Hardaway
---- Mike Volckmann <mike_cfi@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >From what I have been reading one burns 100 BTUs of natural gas to produce 80-120
BTUs of ethanol (from corn numbers change if you are using sugar cane).
Sounds like playing at being green while accomplishing nothing to get to reduce
the US's dependency on petroleum. I would agree that bio-diesel run in small
motors like the new VW bug shows a lot more promise.
Mike
----- Original Message ----
From: gus notti <gus_notti@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 5:47:38 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank)
Why would you want too? E85 is a joke, it's not solving any energy issues just
creating more. I know that's a very hard truth but that's the way it is.
I'm a active ag producer, As a grower Bio-Diesel is the way to go after we start
producing small 4 cylinder motors like the Germans currently do. 50 + MPG that
where the potential lays!
Good luck. I know that's a BIG can of worms.....
Tim Verthein <minoxphotographer@yahoo.com> wrote:
We have some guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair
cars....here's what I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the
same would apply:
Make darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is
alchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams,
etc..won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner,
so if you have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them
sealed, they'll probably start leaking.
You have higher octane, but less BTU's, so you'll lose a bit of power
and "mileage" but can use advanced timing and higher compression
(probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually make up for most
of the loss.
You will need to rejet the carb..you need everything richer.
And you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced a bit.
That's what I know from an old car perspective.
Tim in Bovey
>
> Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US
> From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank
>
>
> Beside having a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else
> would
> be req
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) |
Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank)Don't know about Citgo but BP
stations are alcohol free in the area (Tennessee) I live in. I have
been told by a station manager that BP's policy is not to use alcohol
unless it's the law. I still do an alcohol check each time, just in
case. It's so easy, even a cave man could do it.
Gene
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