---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/02/07: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:42 AM - Re: Piet video on YouTube (Gene and Tammy) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: what does Corky look like ? (Gene and Tammy) 3. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Tailwheel spring & Skid (Gene and Tammy) 4. 06:03 AM - Another wing stitching ? (gus notti) 5. 06:37 AM - Re: Another wing stitching ? (Rcaprd@aol.com) 6. 07:25 AM - Another wing stitching ? (Oscar Zuniga) 7. 07:49 AM - Re: Another wing stitching ? (Phillips, Jack) 8. 08:35 AM - Re: Another wing stitching ? (gus notti) 9. 01:05 PM - Re: Tailwheel spring & Skid (Don Emch) 10. 01:30 PM - E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (Tim Verthein) 11. 02:31 PM - Real Air Camper (Bill Church) 12. 03:43 PM - Re: Real Air Camper (DJ Vegh) 13. 04:49 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (gus notti) 14. 05:01 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (Jeff Boatright) 15. 05:37 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (Mike Volckmann) 16. 06:49 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) () 17. 07:25 PM - Re: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) (Gene and Tammy) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:40 AM PST US From: "Gene and Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet video on YouTube Michael, Thanks for the interesting report. I was really wondering about it. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: MICHAEL SILVIUS To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:27 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet video on YouTube This plane was advertized for sale localy here in Manie last year and I went to see it. Workmanship over all looked decent. It is side-by-each seating but it is a tight squeze. Mother better be real tiny. I believe I measured it at 34 inch wide at the elbows. It has a door of sorts on the left side. Also has a shelf that runs along the bottom edge of the panel that is a X brace beween the two sides of the fuselage. The cabanes are canted inwards with no wing center section, though as best I could tell it is a two piece wing. The word was that it is a bit hot to handle with the short wings. I was also told that with the wider frontal profile it is a bit dragier than she ought to be and could actually use a bit more in the HP dept. michael silvius scarborough, maine ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church There's a video on YouTube of a side-by-side Piet (that's currently for sale on Barnstormers) flying on a bit of a windy day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06_I-of-XhM If the link doesn't work, just type wingit demo in the YouTube search box. The plane looks a little strange - wings look short (no center section), cabanes similar to a Baby Ace, landing gear looks narrow, and of course, the fuse is wider (duh). Bill C ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:47 AM PST US From: "Gene and Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: what does Corky look like ? Fits with the image I had in my mind. Corkey has to be a really "cool" guy. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Rcaprd@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:38 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: what does Corky look like ? Here is a picture of Corky, when he sat down for a minute, after loading the 1942 Aeronca Defender. Not sure who that is with him... :) he he he !! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:51 AM PST US From: "Gene and Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tailwheel spring & Skid Don, is that Gold Wing your? Gene > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:02 AM PST US From: gus notti Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another wing stitching ? One more quick question, does the original plans for the Air camper call for rib stitching? Would the FAA sign off if the wings were only glued with no other kind of attachments? I'm thinking about buying this flying project, (yes N number back in 1991) however when I asked the current owner if the fabric was rib stitched he said no, (not sure he know's what to look for) What are the guide lines requiring the stitching? Vse and Max weight...right? Thanks --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:59 AM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Another wing stitching ? In a message dated 2/2/2007 8:04:58 AM Central Standard Time, gus_notti@yahoo.com writes: One more quick question, does the original plans for the Air camper call for rib stitching? Would the FAA sign off if the wings were only glued with no other kind of attachments? I'm thinking about buying this flying project, (yes N number back in 1991) however when I asked the current owner if the fabric was rib stitched he said no, (not sure he know's what to look for) What are the guide lines requiring the stitching? Vse and Max weight...right? Thanks The plans don't show anything about the covering process. Covering an airplane is a whole seperate process, and isn't specific to any certain type, except for Vne (which requires closer spacing of the rib stitches). The Stitts process is what I used, and it calls out 3 1/2" spacing of the stitches, and in the prop wash plus one rib, it calls out 2 1/2" spacing. I have a total of about 500 stitches in my wing. You can easily see the stitches under the 2" tape. I think Stitts suplies this document for sale, and should be closely followed. I doubt if the FAA or a DAR would sign off on it, and I question how it got it's original Airworthyness Certificate. My guess is that it doesn't have very many actual flight hours, for fear of the fabric coming off. The 1/2" wide cap strips just simply doesn't have enough area to glue to, and I would also suggest a close look at the ribs, to see if any of them are pulled sideways, and possibly cracked, from the heat shrink process. It might even require a re-cover job, which would risk destroying some ribs. After a very close inspection inside the wing, if there is no damage, you could probaly remove the paint along the ribs, stitch it, and put the 2" tape on top, then re-paint. It amazes me why someone would cut corners in such a critical area. On the other hand, maybe it actually does have stitches, and the current owner just doesn't know what to look for. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:09 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another wing stitching ? Gus; the requirement for rib stitching comes from the covering system manufacturer (Poly-Fiber, etc.) as well as from best practices guidelines. As mentioned in an earlier post, one Pieter feels that Hipec may be the only manufacturer that does not require rib stitching. If you can determine the covering system used on the airplane, that would help. I would think that you could go back and do rib stitching by removing the paint over the ribs, stitching after applying rib lace reinforcing tape over the rib area, going over that with finishing tapes, and then refinishing the new areas. Matter of fact, if the Stits method was used to cover the aircraft, you don't even have to remove the paint and other finishes before laying down the new work... they claim that all their components are completely compatible with one another. However, it will probably be easier to see through the wing fabric to do the rib stitching if you remove the finishes over the ribs, down to bare fabric. It won't be as messy, either. Like the man says, "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later". Somebody didn't pay the man when the airplane was first covered ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Valentines Day -- Shop for gifts that spell L-O-V-E at MSN Shopping http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8323,ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24095&tcode=wlmtagline ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Another wing stitching ? From: "Phillips, Jack" Regardless of the plans (they don't mention covering at all), the fabric should be ribstitched. If the fabric is just glued to the capstrips, the ribs are loaded in tension and are prone to failure. Ribstitching (more properly called rib-lacing) loads the ribs in compression, where they are much stronger. I know of a number of designs which call out glued fabric rather than laced (the Osprey 2 amphibian comes to mind), but in all cases, the rib cap is at least 2" wide, providing generous area to glue to, and the rib itself is solid plywood - not a built up truss rib. I wouldn't fly a Pietenpol with glued on fabric. Makes you wonder what other corners got cut in the building process. Ribstitching just doesn't take that long - about 12 hours per wing. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gus notti Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another wing stitching ? One more quick question, does the original plans for the Air camper call for rib stitching? Would the FAA sign off if the wings were only glued with no other kind of attachments? I'm thinking about buying this flying project, (yes N number back in 1991) however when I asked the current owner if the fabric was rib stitched he said no, (not sure he know's what to look for) What are the guide lines requiring the stitching? Vse and Max weight...right? Thanks _____ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:54 AM PST US From: gus notti Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Another wing stitching ? I'm going to go get the Pietenpol this weekend, I know what to look for with a fabric covered airplane. If the wing ribs are not stitched I will ribstitch them before I fly it, NO IF AND BUTTS ABOUT IT! ( I have 2 many mouths to feed to have something stupid happen). I have over a 1000 + hours all in tube and fabric planes I have never flown a fabric covered plane with out the fabric being attached properly. I sure in the hell not starting now. I'm thinking the current owner don't know what to look for. Yes if needed it will be an fairly easy job, no topcoat of paint is on the fabric, it's through silver. I guess it's been flying that way since A/W was issused in 1991. Thanks for your thoughts! Gus --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tailwheel spring & Skid From: "Don Emch" Chuck, Three-points come pretty easy, as long as you keep thinking, "hold it off, hold it off, hold it off." If I give the tall gear/wheels a chance to touch first, which is easy to do, I am guaranteed a bounce. It does have a fairly high deck angle. Usually as long as I "hold it off, hold it off" on the second landing it is usually slowed up enough to be at the right angle to touch all three. I think that's the key. Sometimes if it's been a few weeks or so since I've flown my brain seems to forget that it is kind of a steep three-point. If my nose tank is full it seems to take a very conscious full pull back to my stop to get the tail to touch with the mains. It is much easier when the tank is at least a few gallons lower. Hard surface landings aren't my favorite, but I've done some. Not too much different I guess, probably more psychological than anything but I still don't like them. A cool thing is that the tires don't chirp, it's more like a short howl to get them up to speed. Hard surface takeoffs seem no different than grass. Gene, no that's not my Goldwing. That picture was taken at Barber Airport. Forrest Barber is the Goldwing guy. My dad is a big Goldwing groupie and I do have to admit, it is one classy and nice to ride bike. He's had it all over the country, with probably over 100,000 miles on it by now. The good flying weather isn't too far off! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=92422#92422 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:31 PM PST US From: Tim Verthein Subject: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) We have some guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair cars....here's what I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the same would apply: Make darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is alchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams, etc..won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner, so if you have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them sealed, they'll probably start leaking. You have higher octane, but less BTU's, so you'll lose a bit of power and "mileage" but can use advanced timing and higher compression (probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually make up for most of the loss. You will need to rejet the carb..you need everything richer. And you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced a bit. That's what I know from an old car perspective. Tim in Bovey > > Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US > From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank > > > Beside having a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else > would > be required to make a Model A Piet E-85 compatible. ? Anyone? Leon S. > Looking to the future. > == You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor! == Get your own web address. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:04 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Real Air Camper From: "Bill Church" For a chuckle, here's a photo of an air camper that really lives up to its name. do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:32 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Real Air Camper love it! HA!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Real Air Camper For a chuckle, here's a photo of an air camper that really lives up to its name. do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:40 PM PST US From: gus notti Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) Why would you want too? E85 is a joke, it's not solving any energy issues just creating more. I know that's a very hard truth but that's the way it is. I'm a active ag producer, As a grower Bio-Diesel is the way to go after we start producing small 4 cylinder motors like the Germans currently do. 50 + MPG that where the potential lays! Good luck. I know that's a BIG can of worms..... Tim Verthein wrote: We have some guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair cars....here's what I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the same would apply: Make darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is alchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams, etc..won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner, so if you have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them sealed, they'll probably start leaking. You have higher octane, but less BTU's, so you'll lose a bit of power and "mileage" but can use advanced timing and higher compression (probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually make up for most of the loss. You will need to rejet the carb..you need everything richer. And you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced a bit. That's what I know from an old car perspective. Tim in Bovey > > Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US > From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank > > > Beside having a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else > would > be required to make a Model A Piet E-85 compatible. ? Anyone? Leon S. > Looking to the future. > == You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor! == Get your own web address. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:32 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) I'm guessing you'd "want to" because it's simply dealing with reality. Seasonally, autogas contains alcohol. If you don't have access to avgas (as we don't at our little country strip, 2GA9), it's something to deal with. But man-o-man, would I love to be driving one of those high-efficiency diesels on biodiesel. I'm 100% with you there. Someone commented that Citgo doesn't lace it's juice with alcohol. Does anyone know more about this? Thanks, Jeff >Why would you want too? E85 is a joke, it's not solving any energy >issues just creating more. I know that's a very hard truth but >that's the way it is. >I'm a active ag producer, As a grower Bio-Diesel is the way to go >after we start producing small 4 cylinder motors like the Germans >currently do. 50 + MPG that where the potential lays! > > >Good luck. I know that's a BIG can of worms..... > > >Tim Verthein wrote: > > >We have some guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair >cars....here's what I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the >same would apply: > >Make darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is >alchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams, >etc..won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner, >so if you have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them >sealed, they'll probably start leaking. > >You have higher octane, but less BTU's, so you'll lose a bit of power >and "mileage" but can use advanced timing and higher compression >(probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually make up for most >of the loss. > >You will need to rejet the carb..you need everything richer. > >And you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced a bit. > >That's what I know from an old car perspective. > >Tim in Bovey > > >> >> Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US >> From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank >> >> >> Beside having a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else >> would >> be required > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Atlanta, GA 30322 Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision http://www.molvis.org/ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:54 PM PST US From: Mike Volckmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) >From what I have been reading one burns 100 BTUs of natural gas to produce 80-120 BTUs of ethanol (from corn numbers change if you are using sugar can e). Sounds like playing at being green while accomplishing nothing to get to reduce the US's dependency on petroleum. I would agree that bio-diesel run in small motors like the new VW bug shows a lot more promise.=0A =0AMik e=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: gus notti =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, February 2, 2007 5:47 :38 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank)=0A=0A=0AWhy woul d you want too? E85 is a joke, it's not solving any energy issues just cre ating more. I know that's a very hard truth but that's the way it is.=0AI'm a active ag producer, As a grower Bio-Diesel is the way to go after we sta rt producing small 4 cylinder motors like the Germans currently do. 50 + MP G that where the potential lays!=0A =0A =0A =0AGood luck. I know that's a B IG can of worms.....=0A=0A=0ATim Verthein wro guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair=0Acars....here's w hat I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the=0Asame would apply: =0A=0AMake darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is=0Aa lchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams,=0Aetc. .won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner,=0Aso if y ou have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them=0Asealed, they'l l probably start leaking.=0A=0AYou have higher octane, but less BTU's, so y ou'll lose a bit of power=0Aand "mileage" but can use advanced timing and h igher compression=0A(probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually make up for most=0Aof the loss.=0A=0AYou will need to rejet the carb..you n eed everything richer.=0A=0AAnd you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced a bit.=0A=0AThat's what I know from an old car perspective. =0A=0ATim in Bo vey=0A=0A=0A> =0A> Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US=0A> From: lshutks@webtv.net (Le on Stefan)=0A> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank=0A> =0A> =0A> Beside havi ng a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else=0A> would=0A> be req ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:19 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) Popping open 12 oz of fish bait: While I agree that bio-deisel has a lot of promise that may not be realized by ethanol, the refining costs of ethanol are very simlar to the refining costs of gasoline. Oil refineries run at about a 44% energy cost, meaning that it takes about 100 BTUs to produce about 120-130 BTUs of gasoline. It doesn't matter, in terms of energy used, what the fuel is that makes the heat that distills the crude and pumps it around. Ethanol certainly requires energy to make, but that energy can theoretically come from ethanol, not just natural gas, or coal, or oil, or even buffalo chips. The real tell-tale is going to be the cost of converting whiskey and government subsidized plow-under into auto fuel, or the political costs of making the sugar cane growers of Cuba wealthy, compared to the costs of keeping the mid-east oil-producing nations in operation. Mike Hardaway ---- Mike Volckmann wrote: > >From what I have been reading one burns 100 BTUs of natural gas to produce 80-120 BTUs of ethanol (from corn numbers change if you are using sugar cane). Sounds like playing at being green while accomplishing nothing to get to reduce the US's dependency on petroleum. I would agree that bio-diesel run in small motors like the new VW bug shows a lot more promise. Mike ----- Original Message ---- From: gus notti Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 5:47:38 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) Why would you want too? E85 is a joke, it's not solving any energy issues just creating more. I know that's a very hard truth but that's the way it is. I'm a active ag producer, As a grower Bio-Diesel is the way to go after we start producing small 4 cylinder motors like the Germans currently do. 50 + MPG that where the potential lays! Good luck. I know that's a BIG can of worms..... Tim Verthein wrote: We have some guys in the Corvair clubs running E-85 in their Corvair cars....here's what I know for sure (mostly) and I imagine most of the same would apply: Make darn sure every plastic or rubber part in the fuel system is alchohol compatible (old rubber, seals, gaskets, fuel pump diaphrams, etc..won't be) Also, the alchohol is a heck of a fuel system cleaner, so if you have things that are relying on old "gunk" to keep them sealed, they'll probably start leaking. You have higher octane, but less BTU's, so you'll lose a bit of power and "mileage" but can use advanced timing and higher compression (probably not an issue in a model A) which can usually make up for most of the loss. You will need to rejet the carb..you need everything richer. And you'll need to tweak the timing...advanced a bit. That's what I know from an old car perspective. Tim in Bovey > > Time: 06:40:43 AM PST US > From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank > > > Beside having a fuel tank that won't melt from ethanol, what else > would > be req ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:33 PM PST US From: "Gene and Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank) Re: Pietenpol-List: E-85 (was Fuel Tank)Don't know about Citgo but BP stations are alcohol free in the area (Tennessee) I live in. I have been told by a station manager that BP's policy is not to use alcohol unless it's the law. I still do an alcohol check each time, just in case. It's so easy, even a cave man could do it. Gene ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.