Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:28 AM - Rubbing Aileron cables (john smoyer)
2. 05:01 AM - Re: Engines and Mounts (Mike King)
3. 05:15 AM - Re: Engines and Mounts (Gene Beenenga)
4. 05:59 AM - Re: Rubbing Aileron cables (pietflyr)
5. 06:58 AM - Rubbing Aileron cables (Oscar Zuniga)
6. 07:26 AM - Re: I found the VW Reduction info (Bill Church)
7. 07:41 AM - Re: Rubbing Aileron cables (Tom Bernie)
8. 08:28 AM - Re: I found the VW Reduction info ()
9. 08:59 AM - Re: Several ?? on this Pietenpol I just bought. and engine mount length (gus notti)
10. 09:10 AM - North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome (Terry Hall)
11. 09:54 AM - Re: North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome ()
12. 09:56 AM - North Texas and Oklahoma Pietenpol's welcome (Oscar Zuniga)
13. 10:22 AM - Re: North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome ()
14. 12:07 PM - Re: Several ?? on this Pietenpol I just bought. and engine mount (Catdesigns)
15. 02:31 PM - Re: North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome (Steve Ruse)
16. 04:12 PM - Chuck's Web site (shad bell)
17. 05:44 PM - VW Reduction Units (Larry Rice)
18. 05:49 PM - Re: Engines and Mounts (Wizzard187@aol.com)
19. 08:44 PM - Re: Rubbing Aileron cables (Rcaprd@aol.com)
20. 09:11 PM - Re: Several ?? on this Pietenpol I just bought. and engine mo... (Rcaprd@aol.com)
21. 09:17 PM - Re: North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome (Rcaprd@aol.com)
22. 09:33 PM - Re: Chuck's Web site (Rcaprd@aol.com)
23. 09:40 PM - Re: VW Reduction Units (Rcaprd@aol.com)
Message 1
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Subject: | Rubbing Aileron cables |
The aileron control arrangement on the Air Camper I'm building has a horn
welded to the control stick torque tube. The horn looks like a very wide V,
with a single hole at the end of each leg of the V. The aileron cable for
the left aileron attaches to the right leg of the V, and vice versa. The
two cables cross about 12 inches above the V, then run onto pulleys on the
center section's aft spar.
The cables rub together where they cross. This seems to be unavoidable,
since the legs of the horn on the torque tube are aligned in the same plane.
I'm considering bending or twisting the legs so the cables don't rub. Is
the rubbing going to cause unacceptable wear problems in the cables? Is it
common to other Piet's with this arrangement?
Any comments would be much appreciated. Thanks to all who contribute to
this really great list.
John Smoyer
Mid-Atlantic Air Museum
Reading, PA
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Engines and Mounts |
Chuck,
I have a Continental A-80 in my GN-1. It is an A-65 case with some
company mods.
Mike King
GN-1
77MK
Ponder, Texas
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:28 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engines and Mounts
I don't think Continental ever built a 'C65' engine. It was an
A65, then an A75, then a C85 engine, which is close to the O-200.
Recently, there was an article in Sport Aviation about the history of
Continental engines.
Throughout the history of the Pietenpol, it is notable to have
had a wider variety of engines than any other airframe in aviation
history. However, there is None that I know of that has had success
with a V W engine. In my opinion, the A65 engine is a near perfect
match for the Pietenpol Airframe. As far as PSRU's (Prop Speed
Reduction Units), they add weight, complexity, expense and
maintenance...and more notable, they reduce reliability and
dependability. You simply can't disregard a trend analyst.
An engine mount would almost certainly have to be custom built for
any particular homebuilt airplane, or at least modified in some way if
you would purchase one. Another huge reason to build your own mount, is
that it is a reasonable method to attain a safe Center of Gravity
location. Shad is correct in that my engine mount is long, in order
to maintain a safe C of G in any loading configuration. I used the next
heavier wall thickness tubing than in the plans, and I built it with
down thrust, and right thrust.
And Gus, I think you should certainly purchase a set of plans from
the Pietenpol Family. There is a link to their web site on my home
page.
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita, KS
NX770CG
http://nx770cg.com/
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Engines and Mounts |
Mike, I sure would like to see a pic or two, or three.... of your GN, when you
have a minute or two. I am about 90% along on a GN-1 with about 50% to go, as
the saying goes.
I am planning on a Corvair to pull mine through the air.
Gene
-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike King <mikek120@mindspring.com>
>Sent: Feb 9, 2007 7:01 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engines and Mounts
>
>Chuck,
>
>I have a Continental A-80 in my GN-1. It is an A-65 case with some company mods.
>
>
>Mike King
>GN-1
>77MK
>Ponder, Texas
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rcaprd@aol.com
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:28 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engines and Mounts
>
>
> I don't think Continental ever built a 'C65' engine. It was an A65, then
an A75, then a C85 engine, which is close to the O-200. Recently, there was
an article in Sport Aviation about the history of Continental engines.
> Throughout the history of the Pietenpol, it is notable to have had a
wider variety of engines than any other airframe in aviation history. However,
there is None that I know of that has had success with a V W engine. In my
opinion, the A65 engine is a near perfect match for the Pietenpol Airframe. As
far as PSRU's (Prop Speed Reduction Units), they add weight, complexity, expense
and maintenance...and more notable, they reduce reliability and dependability.
You simply can't disregard a trend analyst.
> An engine mount would almost certainly have to be custom built for any particular
homebuilt airplane, or at least modified in some way if you would purchase
one. Another huge reason to build your own mount, is that it is a reasonable
method to attain a safe Center of Gravity location. Shad is correct
in that my engine mount is long, in order to maintain a safe C of G in any loading
configuration. I used the next heavier wall thickness tubing than in the
plans, and I built it with down thrust, and right thrust.
> And Gus, I think you should certainly purchase a set of plans from the Pietenpol
Family. There is a link to their web site on my home page.
>
> Chuck Gantzer
> Wichita, KS
> NX770CG
> http://nx770cg.com/
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Rubbing Aileron cables |
John,
I solved this problem in mine with a well calibrated whack to one of the horns
with a 2 lb sledge hammer. It shifted the associated cable by a 1/4" or so and
the rubbing magically went away.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of john
smoyer
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 7:28 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rubbing Aileron cables
The aileron control arrangement on the Air Camper I'm building has a horn
welded to the control stick torque tube. The horn looks like a very wide V,
with a single hole at the end of each leg of the V. The aileron cable for
the left aileron attaches to the right leg of the V, and vice versa. The
two cables cross about 12 inches above the V, then run onto pulleys on the
center section's aft spar.
The cables rub together where they cross. This seems to be unavoidable,
since the legs of the horn on the torque tube are aligned in the same plane.
I'm considering bending or twisting the legs so the cables don't rub. Is
the rubbing going to cause unacceptable wear problems in the cables? Is it
common to other Piet's with this arrangement?
Any comments would be much appreciated. Thanks to all who contribute to
this really great list.
John Smoyer
Mid-Atlantic Air Museum
Reading, PA
Message 5
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Subject: | Rubbing Aileron cables |
John; take a look at the picture at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/Pb030024.jpg
Your cable crossing probably looks similar. The cables get very close, but
you should be able to tweak one of the horns enough to allow them to clear
each other.
I don't know that I'd use a 2 lb. hammer, though. Some people are so crude!
;o)
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
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you know
Message 6
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Subject: | I found the VW Reduction info |
Here's a link to the Valley Engineering website:
http://www.culverprops.com/index.php
And here's one of their webpages with video of a 66-foot take-off, using
a VW/PSRU. Wow!
http://www.culverprops.com/back-yard-flyer.php
Granted, that's a special airplane - look at that wing construction. And
they don't say specifically how much the plane weighs, but it looks
pretty spartan.
Not sure that it would be applicable to a Pietenpol, but those guys are
doing some very interesting work.
Bill C
Message 7
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Subject: | Rubbing Aileron cables |
John,
On my GN-1 I achieved aileron cable clearance by building one of the
pulley brackets taller (3/8") than the other.
Tom Bernie
Gloucester Mass
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john
smoyer
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 7:28 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rubbing Aileron cables
<jpsmoyer@verizon.net>
The aileron control arrangement on the Air Camper I'm building has a
horn
welded to the control stick torque tube. The horn looks like a very
wide V,
with a single hole at the end of each leg of the V. The aileron cable
for
the left aileron attaches to the right leg of the V, and vice versa.
The
two cables cross about 12 inches above the V, then run onto pulleys on
the
center section's aft spar.
The cables rub together where they cross. This seems to be unavoidable,
since the legs of the horn on the torque tube are aligned in the same
plane.
I'm considering bending or twisting the legs so the cables don't rub.
Is
the rubbing going to cause unacceptable wear problems in the cables? Is
it
common to other Piet's with this arrangement?
Any comments would be much appreciated. Thanks to all who contribute to
this really great list.
John Smoyer
Mid-Atlantic Air Museum
Reading, PA
Message 8
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Subject: | I found the VW Reduction info |
There is absolutely no way you could take off in that thing in a level
condition without tearring that prop all to hell.You would have to hold the
tail down and make a three point takeoff and landing and God help ya if
there is any abnormalities in the field.You will be eating toothpicks for
weeks!
>From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I found the VW Reduction info
>Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:25:39 -0500
>
>Here's a link to the Valley Engineering website:
>
>http://www.culverprops.com/index.php
>
>And here's one of their webpages with video of a 66-foot take-off, using
>a VW/PSRU. Wow!
> http://www.culverprops.com/back-yard-flyer.php
>
>Granted, that's a special airplane - look at that wing construction. And
>they don't say specifically how much the plane weighs, but it looks
>pretty spartan.
>Not sure that it would be applicable to a Pietenpol, but those guys are
>doing some very interesting work.
>
>Bill C
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Several ?? on this Pietenpol I just bought. and engine |
mount length
OK I have to thank all of you for the very good input so far, Yes I will buy an
set of plans.
Will the plans tell me what I need to know about weight and balance and the correct
design
of the A65 motor mount? Now remember this Pietenpol had a A65 on it and it flew
off the needed 25 hours, then the motor had some problems that's when and A&P
swapped in the VW conversion. It's no big deal it's just going to take a little
longer to get her in the air,
I was thinking I would be in the air late next month. You know I gave $5500.00
for it.
I don't know if that's a good deal or not, but I just sold a older PA22 I had
so I could play with another PA20 I was working on.
About the motor mount I think I will find a mount for a A65 and just extend it
as needed.
Any luck with that IDEA?
Thanks.
If anybody has a mount they want to part with I'm in the market.......
Thanks,
I was going to shoot a coat of pain on it and bolt the wings on it and taxi test
it and fly it,
I think I'll forget the paint, but I will taxi test and may fly it with the VW
on her. I have a private srtip all I need is approx 70feet agl to be safe, but
if it stopped running it would be
trouble......We see.
shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com> wrote:
As far as a C65 mount for your piet, you wil probably have to make your own
or have someone custom make it for you. There is usually enough differences
from one homebuilt, A Piet in this case, to another (measurements) that a mount
off someone elses piet probably won't fit yours. This might not be the case,
maybe you will get lucky and find one that fits your engine mount fittings on
the longerons and just bolt er on and go. Also doing some weight and ballance
figures on your plane with you or the intended pilot's weight in the rear seat
and normal fuel load will be very helpful for getting the CG correct. Make
the mount the correct length to suit YOUR Piet with you flying it. This can
save a lot of weight in ballast, especially if it ends up tail heavy. 5 lbs
tail heavy can eaisly take 40lbs of ballest at the firewall to compensate. 2
inches of tubing is a lot lighter than ballest. I have some methoods of figuring
mount length in my Jungster 1 plans if you are
interested. Chuck Ganzer could probably chime in on this one, I believe his mount
is longer than most and probably for CG reasons.
Shad
gus notti <gus_notti@yahoo.com> wrote:
OK, where does A want to be Pietenpol flyer find a C65 motor mount?
I have a C65 I'll just major her real quick. Any thoughts?
I'm still going to taxi tax the VW conversion just to see.
---------------------------------
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Message 10
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Subject: | North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome |
Hello everyone,
If you Piet pilots in North Texas and Oklahoma are looking for a place
to fly on June 16, 2007, why not fly to the Ada Air Expo in Ada, OK?
We'd love to have you.
Sincerely,
Terry Hall
Sky Scout Builder
Airport manager, City of Ada
Message 11
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Subject: | North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome |
We are havin a flyin and car drive in at Redeau Valley field south of Kars
on June 10th in the Ottawa area.Flyin ,look at some old cars,have a burger
and pop or a hot dog and sit a while.
>From: "Terry Hall" <adaairport@cableone.net>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome
>Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:09:05 -0600
>
>Hello everyone,
>
>If you Piet pilots in North Texas and Oklahoma are looking for a place to
>fly on June 16, 2007, why not fly to the Ada Air Expo in Ada, OK? We'd
>love to have you.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Terry Hall
>Sky Scout Builder
>Airport manager, City of Ada
Message 12
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Subject: | North Texas and Oklahoma Pietenpol's welcome |
Hmmm... San Antonio to Ada = 424 road miles. At least 7 hours and two fuel
stops by Piet. However, with a slight deviation to the east, I could go San
Antonio to Shreveport to see Corky and get some Cajun food and rest, then
Shreveport to Ada. That might work... ;o)
do not archive
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger
Message 13
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Subject: | North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome |
We are having a flyin and potluck at the Redeau Valley field by the Redeau
river on March 3rd for those hearty guys who like to fly during the
winter.Com on out and join the fun at Toms hanger for some excellent chilli!
>From: <harvey.rule@sympatico.ca>
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome
>Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:53:55 +0000
>
>
>We are havin a flyin and car drive in at Redeau Valley field south of Kars
>on June 10th in the Ottawa area.Flyin ,look at some old cars,have a burger
>and pop or a hot dog and sit a while.
>
>
>>From: "Terry Hall" <adaairport@cableone.net>
>>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome
>>Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:09:05 -0600
>>
>>Hello everyone,
>>
>>If you Piet pilots in North Texas and Oklahoma are looking for a place to
>>fly on June 16, 2007, why not fly to the Ada Air Expo in Ada, OK? We'd
>>love to have you.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>
>>Terry Hall
>>Sky Scout Builder
>>Airport manager, City of Ada
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Several ?? on this Pietenpol I just bought. and engine |
mount
Looks like you will need to buy the Original plans plus the Supplemental plans
if you want the motor mount plans. The wing plans are only needed if you have
a 3-piece wing. Thay have a CG and W&B information in the plans
Below are details of the plan packages.
Copied from
http://www.pressenter.com/~apietenp/My_Homepage_Files/Page47.html
Original Air Camper Plans
Air Camper (1933 design) - Two Place Plane - Simple, straight forward airplane
devoid of frills and built for hard usage. Air Camper uses the Ford Model A
engine. Plans include the Ford A conversion, and wood or steel fuselage. If you
are planning to use an engine lighter in weight than the Ford A (245 lb.), It is
suggested that you also purchase the supplemental Plans which elongates the
fuselage in order to accommodate the weight and balance requirements when
using a lighter aircraft engine.
Original Air Camper Supplemental Plans
Includes drawings showing the installation of the Corvair engine. This packet of
plans includes drawing for a longer fuselage, Corvair motor mount drawing,
Corvair propeller hub drawing, 65 hp Continental engine motor mount drawing.
Original Air Camper Three Piece Wing Plans
Includes and depicts the design changes to the original wing drawings. The
purpose is for those who haven't adequate building space to assemble a one
piece 29 foot wing.
--------
Chris Tracy
WestCoastPiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94006#94006
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome |
I've already got it on my calendar, I hope it works out.
Is anybody else going to make it? I always like seeing Piets...there
are not enough of them around.
Steve Ruse
Norman, OK
Quoting Terry Hall <adaairport@cableone.net>:
> Hello everyone,
>
> If you Piet pilots in North Texas and Oklahoma are looking for a
> place to fly on June 16, 2007, why not fly to the Ada Air Expo in
> Ada, OK? We'd love to have you.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Terry Hall
> Sky Scout Builder
> Airport manager, City of Ada
Message 16
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Subject: | Chuck's Web site |
Chuck, I just saw your web page for the 1st time. Very Nice! You were at the
airport I took my tailwheel training at, Union Co just north west of Columbus
Ohio. That is also where I met airshow man Gene Soucey. He was enroute to the
Dayton airshow a couple years ago and got stuck by weather, so Dad let him
borrow his truck to go in town to get a bite to eat. If your ever over this way
again (30 miles east of Union Co) let me know and you can fly in to the strip
and talk Tailwinds with Bill the airport owner, as he has had 2 of them, and
the guy I bought the house from has the oldest flying tailwind, or so I am told.
It was in the hanger the 1st time I came to look at the house, dissassembled
and ready for restoration.
Hope to see you at Brodhead 07
Shad
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Message 17
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Subject: | VW Reduction Units |
http://www.culverprops.com
http://www.greatplainsas.com/
I still think you'd be better off with a Corvair, though. Big engine
loafing vs little one working hard - reliability? Reduction drive &
simplicity & reliability? Remember that a lot of the WWII rigs, even
with all the government $$$ poured into development still had torsional
vibration problems.
Micro Mong Larry
--
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Engines and Mounts |
Pieters, Does anyone know if it would be possible to bore out a 65 case to
fit 85 cylinders. New ones are much cheaper than 65s. Ken in cold Iowa
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Rubbing Aileron cables |
In a message dated 2/9/2007 6:29:48 AM Central Standard Time,
jpsmoyer@verizon.net writes:
Is
the rubbing going to cause unacceptable wear problems in the cables? Is it
common to other Piet's with this arrangement?
John,
The rubbing is unacceptable. As mentioned in other posts, the best solution
is to offset the legs of the horns on the aileron torque tube, however, you
can also offset the holes in the base of the instrument area as somewhat of a
fairlead to keep them separated. And remember, there is no actual tension on
any of the control cables on the Pietenpol...just take all the slack out of the
cables.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Several ?? on this Pietenpol I just bought. and engine |
mo...
In a message dated 2/9/2007 11:01:31 AM Central Standard Time,
gus_notti@yahoo.com writes:
About the motor mount I think I will find a mount for a A65 and just extend
it as needed.
Any luck with that IDEA?
Gus,
It would be extremely unlikely that you would find an engine mount that
didn't need extensive modifications. Therefore, I think the best solution, after
some very careful weight & balance calculations, is to determine exactly where
the engine should be in relation to the firewall, and build the engine mount
from scratch. It would necessitate the construction of an engine mount jig,
but you will end up with much better results.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: North Texas and Oklahomal Pietenpol's welcome |
In a message dated 2/9/2007 4:32:59 PM Central Standard Time,
steve@wotelectronics.com writes:
Is anybody else going to make it?
Steve,
I've also got the Ada OK Air Expo on my calender. I would have made it
there last summer, but work got in the way. And don't forget...first saturdays
of the month, Ponca City breakfast.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Chuck's Web site |
In a message dated 2/9/2007 6:13:41 PM Central Standard Time,
aviatorbell@yahoo.com writes:
Chuck, I just saw your web page for the 1st time. Very Nice! You were at
the airport I took my tailwheel training at, Union Co just north west of
Columbus Ohio. That is also where I met airshow man Gene Soucey. He was enroute
to
the Dayton airshow a couple years ago and got stuck by weather, so Dad let
him borrow his truck to go in town to get a bite to eat. If your ever over this
way again (30 miles east of Union Co) let me know and you can fly in to the
strip and talk Tailwinds with Bill the airport owner, as he has had 2 of them,
and the guy I bought the house from has the oldest flying tailwind, or so I am
told. It was in the hanger the 1st time I came to look at the house,
dissassembled and ready for restoration.
Hope to see you at Brodhead 07
Shad
Hey Shad,
I'm glad you like my site.
I stopped at Union Co. Airport for a visit with my sister. I think they have
some pictures of Gene Soucey there on the wall. When I took Sis for a
flight, there was a Blimp doing some flights in the area, and was using a small
field a couple of miles from the airport. We circled above the Blimp about 4 or
5
times when it landed...Smoke On of course !! They have about 20 or 30 people
standing in a formation on the ground, to grab hold of the ropes hanging down
from the Blimp, as it comes in to land. Quite an operation !!
I'll be sure to stop at your home field, if I'm ever in that area. Nothing I
like better than talking Pietenpols and Tailwinds !!
I gotta make Brodhead '07 this year. Upon departure, I'm flying cover for my
buddy and his wife on their Harley, en route to Sturges.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: VW Reduction Units |
In a message dated 2/9/2007 7:46:28 PM Central Standard Time,
rice@iapdatacom.net writes:
Remember that a lot of the WWII rigs, even
with all the government $$$ poured into development still had torsional
vibration problems.
That's why the Rolls Royce Merlin Engine, in the P51 Mustang, has the prop
shaft attached to the crankshaft at the mid point on the crank.
The real beauty of a Pietenpol, is in it's simplicity. Keep it that way, and
you will be rewarded with a reliable, fun to fly airplane.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
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