---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/17/07: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:58 AM - How do they fly? (Roger Harris) 2. 08:26 AM - Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs (Oscar Zuniga) 3. 08:49 AM - Re: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs (Pietsrneat@aol.com) 4. 09:00 AM - Re: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs (DJ Vegh) 5. 01:16 PM - Re: How do they fly? (walt evans) 6. 01:33 PM - Re: How do they fly? (walt evans) 7. 01:37 PM - Re: How do they fly? () 8. 01:54 PM - Re: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs (Pietsrneat@aol.com) 9. 03:22 PM - Re: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs (DJ Vegh) 10. 08:05 PM - Re: How do they fly? (Steve Ruse) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:20 AM PST US From: "Roger Harris" Subject: Pietenpol-List: How do they fly? Hi there, The Pietenpol Aircamper is the most fantastic airdraft in the world! I want one! Unfortunately I only have a Microlight (ultralight) licence and I weigh 115kg on a height of 1.90m ( 18 stones on 6 ft 3ins), so probably wouldn't fit in one anyway. However I have just downloaded a great Fligh Simulator add=on from the great Bill Lyons. A great representation of the Aitrcxamper. Thing is, if a cross the controls and side-slip, it doesn't slow dowmn! Questions - does sideslipping increase your rate of descent significantly? - does the aircraft float on forever when landing? - What's the stall speed at MTOW and with the average pilot and half tanks? - Is the ground-handling as difficult as Bill's model represents? (i.e no steering on the ground unless you really give it rice on the throttle, and ground-loops at the sl;ighteest opportunity!) - Are there mods which help her on the ground? Brakes or steerable tailwheels? That's enough for now - anyone know of an example in Spain? Cheers, Roger Harris ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:29 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs Chris wrote- >It looks as though one bolt and three pull rivets >are used to hold an aluminum end. Chris, I believe that the rivets are there to hold the triangular, flat aluminum fitting to the spar, not to transfer any loads from the strut end to the strut. The through-bolt(s) do that. And I would definitely use DJ's two-bolt design rather than a single bolt. I just can't visualize a single bolt transferring all the load to that aluminum. DJ: curious to know how you match-drilled the holes in the strut to the holes in the 4130 end fitting since you obviously drilled the end fitting first? Just measure hole centers and hope for the best? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE. http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:01 AM PST US From: Pietsrneat@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs In a message dated 2/17/2007 11:28:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, taildrags@hotmail.com writes: DJ: curious to know how you match-drilled the holes in the strut to the holes in the 4130 end fitting since you obviously drilled the end fitting first? Just measure hole centers and hope for the best? I was wondering the same thing, Oscar. It is too tight to squeeze in a hole finder of any kind, I think. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:59 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs Oscar, actually I drilled them all at once... sort of. I made a jig that holds the airfoil shaped aluminnum square on the base of my drill press. Then I inserted the 4130 bar into the strut (in the jig) then drilled one hole with a 1/8" pilot. Then I pulled out the 4130 and redrilled it with 1/4" drill and deburred the edges. Then I drilled out the strut with 1/4" drill. Next I inserted the the 4130 bar and dropped an NAS-4 bolt into it to hold it in place. Re-did the previous steps for the second hole and ended up with perfectly matching holes. The key is to do them one at a time, insert a bolt, then redrill for the second. And make sure you make a jig to hold the streamline tubing perfectly square to the drill bit. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs Chris wrote- >It looks as though one bolt and three pull rivets >are used to hold an aluminum end. Chris, I believe that the rivets are there to hold the triangular, flat aluminum fitting to the spar, not to transfer any loads from the strut end to the strut. The through-bolt(s) do that. And I would definitely use DJ's two-bolt design rather than a single bolt. I just can't visualize a single bolt transferring all the load to that aluminum. DJ: curious to know how you match-drilled the holes in the strut to the holes in the 4130 end fitting since you obviously drilled the end fitting first? Just measure hole centers and hope for the best? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE. http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:06 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do they fly? my opinions below,in blue walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Harris To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 11:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How do they fly? Hi there, The Pietenpol Aircamper is the most fantastic airdraft in the world! I want one! Unfortunately I only have a Microlight (ultralight) licence and I weigh 115kg on a height of 1.90m ( 18 stones on 6 ft 3ins), so probably wouldn't fit in one anyway. However I have just downloaded a great Fligh Simulator add=on from the great Bill Lyons. A great representation of the Aitrcxamper. Do you have a link for us to download the add-on? thanks Thing is, if a cross the controls and side-slip, it doesn't slow dowmn! Questions - does sideslipping increase your rate of descent significantly? Yes, I think I can drop in better than a Cessna 150 with 40 deg of flaps - does the aircraft float on forever when landing? NO - What's the stall speed at MTOW and with the average pilot and half tanks? My stall with just me, and half (of 24 gals) fuel was 37 IAS - Is the ground-handling as difficult as Bill's model represents? (i.e no steering on the ground unless you really give it rice on the throttle, and ground-loops at the sl;ighteest opportunity!) I have a steerable tail wheel that I made, and it handles very well on the ground. As far a ground looping, there is a lot of toedancing while landing and during the rollout. If you take it for granted, you'll be in the woods - Are there mods which help her on the ground? Brakes or steerable tailwheels? I installed drum brakes from a gokart supplier That's enough for now - anyone know of an example in Spain? Cheers, Roger Harris ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:20 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do they fly? correction,,, The stall speed was 37 MPH, not knots. thanks walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do they fly? my opinions below,in blue walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Harris To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 11:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How do they fly? Hi there, The Pietenpol Aircamper is the most fantastic airdraft in the world! I want one! Unfortunately I only have a Microlight (ultralight) licence and I weigh 115kg on a height of 1.90m ( 18 stones on 6 ft 3ins), so probably wouldn't fit in one anyway. However I have just downloaded a great Fligh Simulator add=on from the great Bill Lyons. A great representation of the Aitrcxamper. Do you have a link for us to download the add-on? thanks Thing is, if a cross the controls and side-slip, it doesn't slow dowmn! Questions - does sideslipping increase your rate of descent significantly? Yes, I think I can drop in better than a Cessna 150 with 40 deg of flaps - does the aircraft float on forever when landing? NO - What's the stall speed at MTOW and with the average pilot and half tanks? My stall with just me, and half (of 24 gals) fuel was 37 IAS - Is the ground-handling as difficult as Bill's model represents? (i.e no steering on the ground unless you really give it rice on the throttle, and ground-loops at the sl;ighteest opportunity!) I have a steerable tail wheel that I made, and it handles very well on the ground. As far a ground looping, there is a lot of toedancing while landing and during the rollout. If you take it for granted, you'll be in the woods - Are there mods which help her on the ground? Brakes or steerable tailwheels? I installed drum brakes from a gokart supplier That's enough for now - anyone know of an example in Spain? Cheers, Roger Harris href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:01 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do they fly? Very nice looking place to land Walt and a fabulous plane to look at as well.You look like you were made for this aircraft. do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:50 PM PST US From: Pietsrneat@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs DJ, I think what threw us off was the fact that in your photo, there are no holes in the streamlined strut. Ron ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:12 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs ahh... makes sense. I used a length of scrap for the photos. I have quite a bit left over. If anyone wants a sample of the Sky-Tec strut material just let me know! I can cut off a piece and send fo rthe price of shipping. I have both large and smaller sizes. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Pietsrneat@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rans Aluminum Wing Strut Designs DJ, I think what threw us off was the fact that in your photo, there are no holes in the streamlined strut. Ron ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:42 PM PST US From: "Steve Ruse" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: How do they fly? In the real world, if there is one thing a Pietenpol can do exceptionally, it is slowing down. They are draggy airplanes. There is very, very little float on landing unless you start your flair above cruise speed. Again, lots of drag keeps your time to flair down. A lot of people land them with some power to give more float time. It has much, much less float than any other airplane I've flown. I'm pretty comfortable landing on a rough 1,000' strip. Taking off fully loaded from a 1,000' strip on a warm day is a different story. Like someone else said, you can lose a lot of altitude very quickly in an aggressive slip. Ground handling isn't bad at all in my plane in my opinion. However, I have a (narrowed) J3 Cub landing gear & a steerable tailwheel.it is actually very easy to steer accurately on the ground at low speeds. The low landing speed also makes landings fairly easy. I've got probably around 400 landings in my plane, and I've never scared myself. I'm sure landing with the (better looking) motorcycle wheels is more difficult, and more susceptible to side load. My plane is a GN-1, by the way. Steve Ruse Norman, OK _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Harris Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 10:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How do they fly? Questions - does sideslipping increase your rate of descent significantly? - does the aircraft float on forever when landing? - What's the stall speed at MTOW and with the average pilot and half tanks? - Is the ground-handling as difficult as Bill's model represents? (i.e no steering on the ground unless you really give it rice on the throttle, and ground-loops at the sl;ighteest opportunity!) - Are there mods which help her on the ground? Brakes or steerable tailwheels? That's enough for now - anyone know of an example in Spain? Cheers, Roger Harris ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.