---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/11/07: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:13 AM - Re: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length (Roman Bukolt) 2. 02:20 PM - photos on the list? (Jeff Boatright) 3. 02:29 PM - Re: photos on the list? (Dick Navratil) 4. 02:30 PM - Re: photos on the list? (Matt Dralle) 5. 02:35 PM - Re: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length (Dick Navratil) 6. 02:46 PM - Re: Main Landing Gear Length (Catdesigns) 7. 04:04 PM - Thanks for info on attachments (Jeff Boatright) 8. 05:19 PM - Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? (Douwe Blumberg) 9. 05:38 PM - Re: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? (Peter W Johnson) 10. 06:07 PM - Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? (Peter W Johnson) 11. 06:19 PM - Re: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? (Catdesigns) 12. 06:21 PM - Re: Main Landing Gear Length (Don Emch) 13. 06:42 PM - Re: Re: Main Landing Gear Length (Catdesigns) 14. 07:55 PM - McCormack's Piet article (santiago morete) 15. 09:00 PM - Wing drag wires and cables (Rcaprd@aol.com) 16. 11:15 PM - Re: Building a Scimitar Prop (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:46 AM PST US From: "Roman Bukolt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length My two cents worth. There seems to be WAY too much concern over thie Deck angle thing. Here's a new low in this extensive database of deck angles. My angle is 8 1/2 degrees, and you know what? My plane flies great and the prop doesn't touch the ground on take off or landing. What Greg says is the real important and only important dimension is the distance back from the leading edge when the deck angle is level. A half inch can make a difference in ground handling during take off. My plane is 6 1/2". Also, Bill Rewey, I believe did some research on this and he suggested 6 1/2 in. More important than axle location is the fact that the front cabanes are one inch longer than the rear. Oh Oh! did I just open a "new can of worms"? Roman Bukolt NX20795 ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length The axle on NX18235 is 6.5" aft of the leading edge of the wing when in a level attitude. Greg C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length The one important thing I have not seen any mention of in this entire thread is the relationship of axle position relative to the wing. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length Here are a few pics that I imported into a CAD program, then sketched a few lines over the image, to approximate the "ground level" and the top longeron, then measured the angle. It's not really precise, since the pictures are not perfectly parallel to the planes, and the ground surface becomes "fuzzy" with grass, but it gives an approximation. One thing that becomes apparent is that there do seem to be variations in the resulting angles. About a 4 or 5 degree range, which backs up the calculations arrived at by Chris Tracy. Overall, I get the feeling that adegree or so this way or that from the target (13=B0) ain't gonna hurt. Bill C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Date: 3/9/2007 6:53 PM href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:42 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Pietenpol-List: photos on the list? Several posts lately have mentioned attached photos. I have not seen any attachments. I get the digest version of the list. Are attachments allowed on the regular list but not the digest? Thanks, Jeff ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:15 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: photos on the list? Jeff That is correct, no photos on digest. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: photos on the list? > > Several posts lately have mentioned attached photos. I have not seen > any attachments. I get the digest version of the list. Are > attachments allowed on the regular list but not the digest? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:30:49 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: photos on the list? Hi Jeff, For technical reasons, the photos aren't included in the Digest. You can access them, however, from the Forum interface. Just surf over to the link below and look for the specific message: http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=7 Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin At 02:19 PM 3/11/2007 Sunday, you wrote: > >Several posts lately have mentioned attached photos. I have not seen >any attachments. I get the digest version of the list. Are >attachments allowed on the regular list but not the digest? > >Thanks, > >Jeff > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:56 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length I'l see your two cents and raise two cents. The only concern I have on deck angle is, the steeper the angle, the more important to get the tail up early on take off. When I first started flying mine, I almost had a ground stall, not getting the tail up fast enough. Air gets under the wing, prop effect takes right wing up and plane goes off the side of runway. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Roman Bukolt To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length My two cents worth. There seems to be WAY too much concern over thie Deck angle thing. Here's a new low in this extensive database of deck angles. My angle is 8 1/2 degrees, and you know what? My plane flies great and the prop doesn't touch the ground on take off or landing. What Greg says is the real important and only important dimension is the distance back from the leading edge when the deck angle is level. A half inch can make a difference in ground handling during take off. My plane is 6 1/2". Also, Bill Rewey, I believe did some research on this and he suggested 6 1/2 in. More important than axle location is the fact that the front cabanes are one inch longer than the rear. Oh Oh! did I just open a "new can of worms"? Roman Bukolt NX20795 ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length The axle on NX18235 is 6.5" aft of the leading edge of the wing when in a level attitude. Greg C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length The one important thing I have not seen any mention of in this entire thread is the relationship of axle position relative to the wing. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length Here are a few pics that I imported into a CAD program, then sketched a few lines over the image, to approximate the "ground level" and the top longeron, then measured the angle. It's not really precise, since the pictures are not perfectly parallel to the planes, and the ground surface becomes "fuzzy" with grass, but it gives an approximation. One thing that becomes apparent is that there do seem to be variations in the resulting angles. About a 4 or 5 degree range, which backs up the calculations arrived at by Chris Tracy. Overall, I get the feeling that adegree or so this way or that from the target (13=B0) ain't gonna hurt. Bill C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: 3/9/2007 6:53 PM href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:46:56 PM PST US From: "Catdesigns" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Main Landing Gear Length Dick, That is interesting and something I never considered. The only reason I want the steep deck angle is because I like the look of it. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length I'l see your two cents and raise two cents. The only concern I have on deck angle is, the steeper the angle, the more important to get the tail up early on take off. When I first started flying mine, I almost had a ground stall, not getting the tail up fast enough. Air gets under the wing, prop effect takes right wing up and plane goes off the side of runway. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Roman Bukolt To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length My two cents worth. There seems to be WAY too much concern over thie Deck angle thing. Here's a new low in this extensive database of deck angles. My angle is 8 1/2 degrees, and you know what? My plane flies great and the prop doesn't touch the ground on take off or landing. What Greg says is the real important and only important dimension is the distance back from the leading edge when the deck angle is level. A half inch can make a difference in ground handling during take off. My plane is 6 1/2". Also, Bill Rewey, I believe did some research on this and he suggested 6 1/2 in. More important than axle location is the fact that the front cabanes are one inch longer than the rear. Oh Oh! did I just open a "new can of worms"? Roman Bukolt NX20795 ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length The axle on NX18235 is 6.5" aft of the leading edge of the wing when in a level attitude. Greg C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length The one important thing I have not seen any mention of in this entire thread is the relationship of axle position relative to the wing. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: FW: Re: Main Landing Gear Length Here are a few pics that I imported into a CAD program, then sketched a few lines over the image, to approximate the "ground level" and the top longeron, then measured the angle. It's not really precise, since the pictures are not perfectly parallel to the planes, and the ground surface becomes "fuzzy" with grass, but it gives an approximation. One thing that becomes apparent is that there do seem to be variations in the resulting angles. About a 4 or 5 degree range, which backs up the calculations arrived at by Chris Tracy. Overall, I get the feeling that adegree or so this way or that from the target (13=B0) ain't gonna hurt. Bill C. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3/9/2007 6:53 PM href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:21 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Pietenpol-List: Thanks for info on attachments Hm. Maybe I need to change back to the "live" list... ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:50 PM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? HI, Being deeply interested in all Ford powered Piets (as well as all piets in general) I was wondering if anyone knows how Simon McCormick's Piet in Australia is doing. Saw a pic of it appearing finished on Chris Tracy's site. I'd love to hear or get his email to hear his experiences with the Ford. Douwe ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:07 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? Douwe, Simon=92s Piet is finished and flying. There was an article about it in our SAAA a few months ago. Apparently superb construction. Cheers Peter. Wonthaggi Australia HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Monday, 12 March 2007 12:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? HI, Being deeply interested in all Ford powered Piets (as well as all piets in general) I was wondering if anyone knows how Simon McCormick's Piet in Australia is doing. Saw a pic of it appearing finished on Chris Tracy's site. I'd love to hear or get his email to hear his experiences with the Ford. Douwe "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://www.matronics.c om/ Navigator?Pietenpol-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 10/03/2007 2:25 PM -- 10/03/2007 2:25 PM ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:23 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? Douwe, I have scanned the article. Files total 1.5Mb. Do you want me to send you a copy? Cheers Peter. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Monday, 12 March 2007 12:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? HI, Being deeply interested in all Ford powered Piets (as well as all piets in general) I was wondering if anyone knows how Simon McCormick's Piet in Australia is doing. Saw a pic of it appearing finished on Chris Tracy's site. I'd love to hear or get his email to hear his experiences with the Ford. Douwe "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Pietenpol-List 2:25 PM -- 2:25 PM -- 2:25 PM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:45 PM PST US From: "Catdesigns" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? Can I have a copy too? Please... Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter W Johnson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 5:07 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? Douwe, I have scanned the article. Files total 1.5Mb. Do you want me to send you a copy? Cheers Peter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Monday, 12 March 2007 12:23 PM To: pietenpolgroup Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone know about Simon McCormick's Piet? HI, Being deeply interested in all Ford powered Piets (as well as all piets in general) I was wondering if anyone knows how Simon McCormick's Piet in Australia is doing. Saw a pic of it appearing finished on Chris Tracy's site. I'd love to hear or get his email to hear his experiences with the Ford. Douwe -- Date: 10/03/2007 2:25 PM -- 10/03/2007 2:25 PM -- 10/03/2007 2:25 PM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Main Landing Gear Length From: "Don Emch" Chris, Your last post about the reason you are interested in the steep deck angle is the same reason I was into it, because I liked it. Well I went out to the strip today and took a few measurements. I screwed up and I'm sorry but I gave you some wrong numbers. I need to be more careful before I throw out numbers next time. The top of my longeron at the tailpost is 19 1/2" above the ground. The top of my longeron at the firewall is 57 5/8". Figuring the length of the longeron at 172" gives an angle of 12 1/2 degrees. I don't know where I got my 15 degree thing but it's not! Sorry about that! My tires have a diameter of 26 1/2". The gear vees are right off of the plans. I didn't write them down today but they did compare to what was on the plans and I don't recall their lengths. Keep in mind the split axle vees are longer than the straight axle vees. The only real change I made in the gear was to lengthen the axles by 2" to accomodate brakes. This gives me a track of about 60". With the bungees tight the wheels are pulled in slightly. There is about 5 1/2" of vertical distance between the tops of my tires and the belly. With 1" stringers on the belly though it brings that to 4 1/2". You know all of this sounds really important and technical but the truth is, it really is more about aesthetics. Yeah it's gonna land a little different than the next one, but you just adapt to it. The cool thing about the Piet is that you can build the structure very close to the plans and still taylor it to what aesthetically pleases you! This is one of the things that attracts so many people to the design. Is it just me or do many other homebuilt designs ( kits especially) just seem to be boring!? Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100010#100010 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:56 PM PST US From: "Catdesigns" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Main Landing Gear Length Don, Excellent news! I'm so glad you were wrong :-). I can get 12.5 degrees with my current jig setup and all I need to do now is cut the legs to size. I realized today, as I played with my CAD drawing, that I am basically making the wood gear conform to the steel gear dimensions. Now I know I'm doing it right and I can proceed with confidence. A BIG BIG thank you for your effort. I owe you one. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Emch" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 5:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Main Landing Gear Length > > Chris, > Your last post about the reason you are interested in the steep deck angle > is the same reason I was into it, because I liked it. Well I went out to > the strip today and took a few measurements. I screwed up and I'm sorry > but I gave you some wrong numbers. I need to be more careful before I > throw out numbers next time. The top of my longeron at the tailpost is 19 > 1/2" above the ground. The top of my longeron at the firewall is 57 5/8". > Figuring the length of the longeron at 172" gives an angle of 12 1/2 > degrees. I don't know where I got my 15 degree thing but it's not! Sorry > about that! My tires have a diameter of 26 1/2". The gear vees are right > off of the plans. I didn't write them down today but they did compare to > what was on the plans and I don't recall their lengths. Keep in mind the > split axle vees are longer than the straight axle vees. The only real > change I made in the gear was to lengthen the axles by 2" to accomodate > brakes. This gives me a track of ! > about 60". With the bungees tight the wheels are pulled in slightly. > There is about 5 1/2" of vertical distance between the tops of my tires > and the belly. With 1" stringers on the belly though it brings that to 4 > 1/2". You know all of this sounds really important and technical but the > truth is, it really is more about aesthetics. Yeah it's gonna land a > little different than the next one, but you just adapt to it. The cool > thing about the Piet is that you can build the structure very close to the > plans and still taylor it to what aesthetically pleases you! This is one > of the things that attracts so many people to the design. Is it just me > or do many other homebuilt designs ( kits especially) just seem to be > boring!? > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100010#100010 > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:27 PM PST US From: santiago morete Subject: Pietenpol-List: McCormack's Piet article Peter, could you please send me a copy of the article? I'm building a Ford powered Piet to. My mail address is moretesantiago@yahoo.com.ar Thank you. Santiago Morete --------------------------------- Pregunt. Respond. Descubr. Todo lo que queras saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:47 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing drag wires and cables In a message dated 3/10/2007 3:19:37 PM Central Daylight Time, hanover@centramedia.net writes: what are you guys using as size for the brace cables that run in the same plane as the wing struts-(the X brace cables.) I used 3/32" cable for the lift strut X cables. I also used 3/32" for the drag / anti-drag cables, cabane cables around the front pit, and flipper cables. I used 1/8" for the rudder cables, and 1/16" cables for the empenage and tail wheel...the tailwheel cables go all the way up to the inboard portion of the rudder bar. Chuck G. NX770CG


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:37 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building a Scimitar Prop Hello Chuck, I just found this info about cimiterre propellers. Sorry is in french, but they say that a photo or drawing is better than a million words... I will ask a friend to try to translate as much as possible, if he is able to understand the hand writing :-) Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 3/7/2007 7:31:56 PM Central Standard Time, ggower_99@yahoo.com writes: Hello Chuck, I will love to learn carve a scimitar prop also, some day, I will appreciate any lead for info on carving one... Dificult to find this type of info... Please post as you learn... I carved almost all my props, only bought one for one ultralight years ago (IVO) not a great prop... Saludos Gary Gower. Hey Gary, The very best information I have on the Scimitar Prop, is a few short paragraph's, and a few sketches, from the book by Eric Clutton, called 'PROPELLER MAKING for the AMATEUR'. I've got the clamps, and the wood for the jig required, and I'm looking around for prices of a stack of 24 birch planks, measuring 1/4" thick, 3 1/2" wide, quarter sawn, and 7 feet long. It's basically the method to get the extreme curves in the wood, to make the Scimitar. I'm thinking of steaming the 1/4" planks and pre-bending them, before gluing the stack together. Then place maybe five planks at a time in the jig, clamp it down with Resorcinol Glue, then clamping down the next series of planks with glue, and so on with each stack till it's about 6" across, which is the width of the hub of the prop. I think this stuff works better under clamping pressure. I use T88 exclusively, but I don't think it would work in this application, because you're not supposed to clamp it very tightly, but then if it had a layer of Scrim Cloth, it would maintain the bond line to at least .002". But then this bond line would probably be much more prevalent than if it was Resorcinal Glue. After it's all glued up, I'll use the plan view of the prop that I have drawn on the top of the flat, straight, steel top table that I use to build props on. I make a templet for each 6" station of the blade of the prop. Plane the for and aft faces of the prop hub so they are parallel with each other, and use a carpenters square to check the plan form of the wood, against the sketch on the table. Then it's just a matter of whittling away everything that doesn't look like a Scimitar Propeller !! For the Continental A65, I'm going to start out with a 74 X 44...maybe even 46 This is certainly a time consuming and learning process, so I'll have to see what works. I've already started a video of the beginnings of the planning process. In the correspondence I had with Eric, it wasn't in his book, but he mentioned it might be better to use a kind of face plate (about 1/4" thick) on the forward and aft hub area of the prop, so the clamping pressure wouldn't be against the edges of the 1/4" planks. If it is successful, I'm going to build a Scimitar for the 150 hp Tailwind. Steve Wittman was obviously very much into the Scimitar design, as you can see on the back wall of his hanger at Pioneer Field in Oshkosh. Chuck G. NX770CG --------------------------------- AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --------------------------------- No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.