Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:07 AM - tail brace wires (skellytownflyer)
2. 06:23 AM - Re: tail brace wires (Gene Rambo)
3. 07:10 AM - Re: tail brace wires ()
4. 07:57 AM - Re: tail brace wires (Jack T. Textor)
5. 08:10 AM - you guys are confusing the issue (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
6. 08:51 AM - Re: tail brace wires ()
7. 08:59 AM - spruce wood (Arden Adamson)
8. 08:59 AM - Re: purchasing spruce (Arden Adamson)
9. 09:16 AM - Re: spruce wood (Dick Navratil)
10. 09:52 AM - Re: tail brace wires (Bill Church)
11. 10:15 AM - steam vent (Douwe Blumberg)
12. 10:20 AM - Re: steam vent (HelsperSew@aol.com)
13. 10:56 AM - Re: tail brace wires (shad bell)
14. 11:05 AM - Re: spruce wood (Jack T. Textor)
15. 12:14 PM - Re: tail brace wires (DJ Vegh)
16. 12:39 PM - Re: tail brace wires ()
17. 12:57 PM - Re: tail brace wires (skellytownflyer)
18. 01:39 PM - Re: spruce wood (Pietsrneat@aol.com)
19. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: tail brace wires ()
20. 02:15 PM - Re: tail brace wires (Bill Church)
21. 02:26 PM - Re: steam vent (walt evans)
22. 03:38 PM - Re: tail brace wires (Graham Hansen)
23. 03:56 PM - Re: tail brace wires ()
24. 04:03 PM - Scimitar Propeller (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
25. 04:40 PM - Re: Scimitar Propeller (Pietsrneat@aol.com)
26. 05:54 PM - Reasons for building (Tom Stinemetze)
27. 07:58 PM - Re: Scimitar Propeller (Isablcorky@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | tail brace wires |
I am in the process of rigging the tail surfaces to see what I need before covering
and have a set of streamlined tailbrace wires to install.they are Mcwhyte
if it makes any difference.I have looked for reference in A/S catalog but not
found the minimum thread make-up length-meaning how far into the end it needs
to be.does it need to be in as far as the small hole drilled through the rod
end?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101593#101593
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: tail brace wires |
Absolutely. The small hole is called the "witness" hole, and the
threads MUST cover the hole.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: skellytownflyer<mailto:hanover@centramedia.net>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com<mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 9:06 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires
<hanover@centramedia.net<mailto:hanover@centramedia.net>>
I am in the process of rigging the tail surfaces to see what I need
before covering and have a set of streamlined tailbrace wires to
install.they are Mcwhyte if it makes any difference.I have looked for
reference in A/S catalog but not found the minimum thread make-up
length-meaning how far into the end it needs to be.does it need to be in
as far as the small hole drilled through the rod end?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101593#101593<http://forums
matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101593#101593>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
Message 3
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| Subject: | tail brace wires |
Thanks Gene.I always wondered what they called that hole.I have them on
some of my turnbuckles as well.
Do not archive.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene
Rambo
Sent: March 19, 2007 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires
Absolutely. The small hole is called the "witness" hole, and the
threads MUST cover the hole.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: skellytownflyer <mailto:hanover@centramedia.net>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 9:06 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires
<hanover@centramedia.net>
I am in the process of rigging the tail surfaces to see what I
need before covering and have a set of streamlined tailbrace wires to
install.they are Mcwhyte if it makes any difference.I have looked for
reference in A/S catalog but not found the minimum thread make-up
length-meaning how far into the end it needs to be.does it need to be in
as far as the small hole drilled through the rod end?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101593#101593
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| Subject: | tail brace wires |
Maybe I'm not understanding things here....Are we talking about the one
hole in the middle of the turnbuckle? I thought that was for the safety
wire. EAA says
"To ensure that a turnbuckle is capable of developing its maximum
strength, no more than three threads should extend beyond either end of
the barrel after it has been adjusted to the correct cable tension for
the system. Then, and only then, will it be ready for safety wiring."
Jack Textor
Message 5
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| Subject: | you guys are confusing the issue |
Hey guys-- if you read the initial question that Gene answered it is in
regard to STREAMLINED brace
cables and has nothing to do with turnbuckles.
Mike C.
Message 6
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| Subject: | tail brace wires |
Yes it is but there are really small holes on some old turnbuckles that
are located on either side where the center piece screws into (the two
outside pieces) and these are for safety to make sure you have the
turnbuckle turned in enough. I have them on all my elevator cables and
rudder cables. I have the newer type on my ailerons. All of them are
safety wired of course. The small hole is strictly there to make sure
you have threaded it in far enough. They are also used in the tail
section for the cables or rods. I have attached a picture of the rod
connections. In the second picture you can see the small holes. You
can't see it in the first picture because it's on the other side.
Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of the elevator connections just
behind the rear seat.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack T.
Textor
Sent: March 19, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires
Maybe I'm not understanding things here....Are we talking about the one
hole in the middle of the turnbuckle? I thought that was for the safety
wire. EAA says
"To ensure that a turnbuckle is capable of developing its maximum
strength, no more than three threads should extend beyond either end of
the barrel after it has been adjusted to the correct cable tension for
the system. Then, and only then, will it be ready for safety wiring."
Jack Textor
Message 7
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Gentlemen,
Bill from East Texas asked about wood. He probably is too far to drive
it but, for those of you who are closer, McCormick Lumber in Madison, WI
(2hours from me) recently got in a shipment of 4000 board feet of rough
sawn sitka spruce. They are all 18-20 lengths, are mostly 7/8 in but a
few 1 =BC inch thick, and 6-10 inches wide. You have to buy the entire
board so I bought two boards of spar quality. In my humble opinion the
boards are excellent quality and they let you pick through them. My
cost was $8.50 a board foot so I purchased a 20 foot 1 x 6 for $4.25 per
running foot. They occasionally order spruce because, with the lakes
around Madison and Wisconsin, they cater to iceboat builders.
McCormick Lumber
608-244-4741
3156 Milwaukee St.
Madison
Yard hours
Mon-Friday 7:30-4:30
Saturdays 8:00-11:30
Just thought you guys would like to know about this source of spruce.
Arden Adamson
Waupaca, WI
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: purchasing spruce |
Regarding sitka spruce, McCormick Lumber in Madison, WI just received a
shipment of 4000 board feet of straight grain spruce. I bought two
boards (18 & 20 ft. long) recently for $8.50 a board foot for my Piet.
In my humble opinion there were spar quality planks in the pile and you
can pick through them. Just thought you'd like to know.
McCormick Lumber
608-244-4741
3156 Milwaukee St.
Madison
Yard hours
Mon-Friday 7:30-4:30
Saturdays 8:00-11:30
Arden Adamson
Waupaca, WI
Message 9
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I agree, for sitka, McCormack's is the best. Decent people who don't
mind if you lay out their entire stock looking for the perfect board.
If anyone needing spruce is going to Brodhed, it's 50 miles from there
to Madison.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Arden Adamson
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 10:58 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: spruce wood
Gentlemen,
Bill from East Texas asked about wood. He probably is too far to
drive it but, for those of you who are closer, McCormick Lumber in
Madison, WI (2hours from me) recently got in a shipment of 4000 board
feet of rough sawn sitka spruce. They are all 18-20 lengths, are mostly
7/8 in but a few 1 =BC inch thick, and 6-10 inches wide. You have to
buy the entire board so I bought two boards of spar quality. In my
humble opinion the boards are excellent quality and they let you pick
through them. My cost was $8.50 a board foot so I purchased a 20 foot 1
x 6 for $4.25 per running foot. They occasionally order spruce because,
with the lakes around Madison and Wisconsin, they cater to iceboat
builders.
McCormick Lumber
608-244-4741
3156 Milwaukee St.
Madison
Yard hours
Mon-Friday 7:30-4:30
Saturdays 8:00-11:30
Just thought you guys would like to know about this source of spruce.
Arden Adamson
Waupaca, WI
Message 10
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| Subject: | tail brace wires |
Just an observation:
I don't know if the lower stabilizer fittings shown in Harvey's picture
are as per the GN-1 drawings, but, from an engineering standpoint, they
do not appear to be as well thought out as the original Pietenpol
fittings. I've attached a small clip from the 1933 drawings that shows
two bolts (rivets, actually) fastening the bracket to the stabilizer. As
can be seen in Harvey's picture, using only one fastener, at a distance
from the bend in the bracket, doesn't provide sufficient holding power
to resist the eccentric loading imposed by the cable. The result is that
the bracket lifts from the stab - possibly crushing some wood fibers
outboard of the fastener.
Bill C
Message 11
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Don,
My steam vent hole is about 3/4". I'd say this or 1/2 is fine, you're
just venting steam.
Regarding the tank, I feel you should hold it down with something other
than just the fabric. I have seen a guy use nylon straps as suggested,
and it worked for him.
Douwe
Message 12
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Regarding the nylon straps for tank hold downs. I have stainless straps on
mine now, but I am going to change them to nylon. The SS is too thick and
bulky and will show under the fabric.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: tail brace wires |
YES! that hole is called an "Inspection Hole" if you can stick a piece of wire
etc. compleatly through, or see light through it you DON"T have it threaded in
enough. By the way, is this a Pietenpol your building? If so just currious
why the MacWhite tie rods? Cables are much much cheaper. I have to buy some
tie rods for my bipe and they are EXTREAMLY expensive. By the way one word of
CAUTION: Keep an very close eye on the lower wires Especialy if they are streamlined.
Stones will knick the front edge if the tie rod and can cause sudden
failure due to the Stress Riser from the knick. I think this is why Piper or
someone issued a service bullitin or an A.D. for tail tie rods. Round would
probably be a better chioce over the streamlined tie rods. I have a few places
you can check if interested.
Shad
skellytownflyer <hanover@centramedia.net> wrote:
I am in the process of rigging the tail surfaces to see what I need before covering
and have a set of streamlined tailbrace wires to install.they are Mcwhyte
if it makes any difference.I have looked for reference in A/S catalog but not
found the minimum thread make-up length-meaning how far into the end it needs
to be.does it need to be in as far as the small hole drilled through the rod
end?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101593#101593
---------------------------------
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Message 14
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I too have been very happy with McCormick's, but keep in mind it is
tough to check the quality of rough sawn wood. Last year I purchased a
piece 18' long for my longerons...which turned out to be bad wood.
Grain was straight, it sure looked ok, but after planning and ripping it
warped so bad I will be lucky to use for anything over a foot long.
Just a $200.00 mistake and no fault of McCormick's.
Jack Textor
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: tail brace wires |
he's using streamline wires because that's what came with it when I sold
the project to him. I got them for free years ago. They are only use
on top. Lower wires are 1/8" cables.
DJ Vegh
veghdesign.com
Mesa, AZ
602.743.5768
"Where there's a will there's a Vegh"
-
----- Original Message -----
From: shad bell
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires
YES! that hole is called an "Inspection Hole" if you can stick a
piece of wire etc. compleatly through, or see light through it you DON"T
have it threaded in enough. By the way, is this a Pietenpol your
building? If so just currious why the MacWhite tie rods? Cables are
much much cheaper. I have to buy some tie rods for my bipe and they are
EXTREAMLY expensive. By the way one word of CAUTION: Keep an very
close eye on the lower wires Especialy if they are streamlined. Stones
will knick the front edge if the tie rod and can cause sudden failure
due to the Stress Riser from the knick. I think this is why Piper or
someone issued a service bullitin or an A.D. for tail tie rods. Round
would probably be a better chioce over the streamlined tie rods. I have
a few places you can check if interested.
Shad
skellytownflyer <hanover@centramedia.net> wrote:
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Message 16
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| Subject: | tail brace wires |
I have included a page from the GN-1 drawings that I received with the
aircraft and this is the way it was built from the drawing. If Grega
engineered it wrong then I shall check with my AME to see what he would
do. If another bolt is needed then I shall indeed install it as per your
suggestion. From what I see in my drawings, it would appear that the top
and bottom brackets are connected with the same bolt and should work
together opposing one another so as no to fail under load conditions. In
the bracket on the vertical stab, the AME did suggest putting another
bolt in as you can see but never said anything about the brackets at the
horizontal stab. I have not noticed any wood crushing as yet but it will
certainly be one of many places I shall closely inspect in the spring
when I get down to her again. Thanks for your observations, I shall
certainly look into this.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Church
Sent: March 19, 2007 12:52 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires
Just an observation:
I don't know if the lower stabilizer fittings shown in Harvey's picture
are as per the GN-1 drawings, but, from an engineering standpoint, they
do not appear to be as well thought out as the original Pietenpol
fittings. I've attached a small clip from the 1933 drawings that shows
two bolts (rivets, actually) fastening the bracket to the stabilizer. As
can be seen in Harvey's picture, using only one fastener, at a distance
from the bend in the bracket, doesn't provide sufficient holding power
to resist the eccentric loading imposed by the cable. The result is that
the bracket lifts from the stab - possibly crushing some wood fibers
outboard of the fastener.
Bill C
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: tail brace wires |
Got the information I needed again! it's the witness hole-now I remember the terminology,and
yes that makes perfect sense and I remember knowing it at one time.thanks.These
are as DJ said flying wires-not turnbuckles.thanks guys.Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101689#101689
Message 18
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Just a little tip when looking for wood: Bring a sanding block with you to
smooth the ends of the boards to get a better idea of grain lines per inch and
slope. Sometimes it's very hard to tell otherwise.
Ron
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: tail brace wires |
I was the one who mentioned turnbuckles because I have them with the
witness holes in them,just to say there are other places you may see
these things,not to cause confusion.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
skellytownflyer
Sent: March 19, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tail brace wires
<hanover@centramedia.net>
Got the information I needed again! it's the witness hole-now I remember
the terminology,and yes that makes perfect sense and I remember knowing
it at one time.thanks.These are as DJ said flying wires-not
turnbuckles.thanks guys.Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101689#101689
Message 20
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| Subject: | tail brace wires |
Harvey,
Just to be clear, your fittings are probably fine as they are. I have
never seen a set of Grega drawings. But, since that's how Mr. Grega drew
them, I would assume that's how most people would build them, if working
from those plans - and there are plenty of GN-1s flying around. I had
never noticed the difference before, and it just seemed odd to me that
the fittings were pulling away from the stabilizer in your photo. I
would imagine that must be a pretty common phenomenon among GN-1s. And
it is also what I would expect the fitting to do, based on the way it is
designed, given the direction of the applied force (through the cable),
the hole location, and the various lever arms and resulting applied
moments.
Although I am an engineer, I do not profess to have any aircraft design
abilities - I based my comments solely on my sense of "that don't look
quite right", as opposed to any scientific analysis. Strength-wise, in
order for the fastening to fail, you would have to either shear off the
bolt passing through your stab, or the bolt would have to rip through
the spar of the stab (both unlikely).
Having said that, it probably wouldn't hurt to have your AME give it a
look, since he did recommend adding a second fastener at the upper
connection - and that wasn't shown in the Grega drawings either.
Bill C
Message 21
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Don,
Again, with advise from my mentor, I used simple steel binding straps
like are used to bind something to a pallet. Tough stuff, and it is
"blued" already, so it won't rust. Just shaped it and bent it to make
simple tightening devises. With felt stripping underneath.
Then got a piece of alum sheet from Home Depot and cut to fit on top
for a smooth surface
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Lane
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 4:00 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: steam vent
Hi
I am ready to bore and tap the hole for the vent in my aluminum Thomas
cylinder head for the Ford A. What is the normal diameter used? I
don't want it to be bigger than necessary. Also, I can't figure out any
practical hold down system for the fuel tank in the center section that
wouldn't cause protrusions under the fabric on top of the wing. Is it
OK to just cover it with polyfiber and consider it done?
Don
Minnesott Beach NC
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: tail brace wires |
Harvey,
Bill Church is correct when he says the bend in the fitting is in the
wrong place. Good engineering practice would have placed the bend as
close to the bolt head (or nut) as possible. Also, the flat of the bolt
head could be aligned so that it is 90 degrees to the edge of the
fitting. A small detail, to be sure--but airplanes are all about
details. (Speaking of details, it seems that some check/locking nuts are
missing on some of your tie rod ends!)
The existing bend location provides a tendency for the fitting to
straighten under load, which in turn affects the brace wire/tie rod
tension adjustment. And, as Bill pointed out, having the bend too far
from the bolt could cause the fitting to press into the spar at the
outboard end.
Possibly the existing fittings could be replaced by ones with the bend
closer to the bolt. I wouldn't recommend adding an extra bolt because
the single bolt allows the horizontal stab. fittings to line up with the
brace wires. A single AN3 bolt is plenty strong for this application,
anyway. I used a single bolt on each of my Pietenpol stab. fittings for
this reason--and the bends are as close to the bolt head as I could get
them. The brace wires are 3/32" stainless steel cable and the setup has
been completely satisfactory since 1970 when I first flew it..
Despite this design deficiency, the setup you have will likely never
cause you any trouble if you keep an eye on it. A plus is that it is
easily checked during your pre-fight inspection.
Graham Hansen Pietenpol CF-AUN
Message 23
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| Subject: | tail brace wires |
Good to hear from you Graham. The brackets are the ones specified in the
Grega drawings and the bolt holes are what they call for, right or
wrong. I will certainly keep an eye on these as you said. There is a
lock nut at either end of each rod but not at both ends of each. My AME
said that as long as there is one at either end of each rod that it
should be sufficient. Again, I will be checking on these on a regular
basis to make sure they don't move. As you said, all part of the walk
around.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Hansen
Sent: March 19, 2007 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires
Harvey,
Bill Church is correct when he says the bend in the fitting is in the
wrong place. Good engineering practice would have placed the bend as
close to the bolt head (or nut) as possible. Also, the flat of the bolt
head could be aligned so that it is 90 degrees to the edge of the
fitting. A small detail, to be sure--but airplanes are all about
details. (Speaking of details, it seems that some check/locking nuts are
missing on some of your tie rod ends!)
The existing bend location provides a tendency for the fitting to
straighten under load, which in turn affects the brace wire/tie rod
tension adjustment. And, as Bill pointed out, having the bend too far
from the bolt could cause the fitting to press into the spar at the
outboard end.
Possibly the existing fittings could be replaced by ones with the bend
closer to the bolt. I wouldn't recommend adding an extra bolt because
the single bolt allows the horizontal stab. fittings to line up with the
brace wires. A single AN3 bolt is plenty strong for this application,
anyway. I used a single bolt on each of my Pietenpol stab. fittings for
this reason--and the bends are as close to the bolt head as I could get
them. The brace wires are 3/32" stainless steel cable and the setup has
been completely satisfactory since 1970 when I first flew it..
Despite this design deficiency, the setup you have will likely never
cause you any trouble if you keep an eye on it. A plus is that it is
easily checked during your pre-fight inspection.
Graham Hansen Pietenpol CF-AUN
Message 24
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| Subject: | Scimitar Propeller |
Members of the list:
After seeing photos and studying material given of this wonderful propeller,
is there a collection of interested members to recreate this propeller? Is it
advantageous to have this duplicated in numbers to keep costs down? Any idea where
one can get this propeller for duplication?....I would love to have this
designed propeller on my finished Pietenpol....Ideas?
Ken H.
Fargo, ND
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Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Scimitar Propeller |
Ken,
Here is a prop that I love, made by Jay Anderson of CLOUDCARS. I was
going to buy one, but Chuck Gantzer has be convinced I can carve one myself.
Chuck mentioned to me that this prop probably isn't a true scimitar, but I love
the way it looks nonetheless. How long it will take me to carve it is anyone's
guess, but I'm gonna give it a crack. If it turns out decent, I would be
glad to loan it out for duplication.
Ron
do not archive
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Message 26
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| Subject: | Reasons for building |
I have been looking forward for quite a while to having my grandson
visit on a day when the weather was good for building. That happened
this last Saturday with my almost 4-year old grandson and his 2.5 year
old sister going with Gramps out to the shop.
I had just finished boxing up most of the lower fuselage and could take
the glue clamps off the pilot's seat frame. I turned the fuse right
side up and set Jaedon up on the work table with the intent of laying a
temporary board across the seat frame and letting him be the first to
sit in "the airplane". He immediately picked up a short board (about 6"
long) and laid it sideways across the tail post for the "back wing."
I said; "Jaedon, don't you want to sit in the airplane?" He said; " No
Gramps! Not enough glue."
Hope he doesn't know more about this than Gramps does!
Tom Stinemetze
The Airplane Nut
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Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Scimitar Propeller |
Ken,
A few years ago, '58 or'59, I attended a flyin in Waco where I met Ray Hegy.
He had a mini biplane named after a Humming bird in Spanish. As I remember,
and that's not too good lately, this plane had a true scimtar
propeller.
I ordered my prop for 41CC from Hegy but Ray has long been gone and his
grandson Jim Corder made me a beautiful semi-scimitar. He also made another for
311CC which I sold with the project. Jim has moved from Marfa, Texas to Olathe,
Colorado. His phone is 970 323 6341. He just might have some of his
grandpas patterns for a full scimitar. Good luck
Corky
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