---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/28/07: 59 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:30 AM - Re: Aluminum Wing? () 2. 04:32 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? () 3. 04:39 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (HelsperSew@aol.com) 4. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing? () 5. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing? (bike.mike) 6. 05:36 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (GeneWeber) 7. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (HelsperSew@aol.com) 8. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? () 9. 06:04 AM - Re: Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? () 10. 06:11 AM - The last Pietenpol? was aluminum wing (baileys) 11. 06:17 AM - perfect editorial comment (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 12. 06:21 AM - laminated wing spar: popsicle sticks (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 13. 06:23 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (James) 14. 06:41 AM - Re: The last Pietenpol? was aluminum wing (Robert Gow) 15. 06:41 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (HelsperSew@aol.com) 16. 06:45 AM - Re: laminated wing spar: popsicle sticks () 17. 06:47 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? () 18. 06:51 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (HelsperSew@aol.com) 19. 07:18 AM - softening (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 20. 08:09 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? () 21. 08:14 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? () 22. 08:33 AM - Re: alum wing (Isablcorky@aol.com) 23. 08:39 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (HelsperSew@aol.com) 24. 08:46 AM - Re: alum wing (Dick Navratil) 25. 08:49 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? () 26. 09:51 AM - Re: alum wing (GeneWeber) 27. 10:25 AM - Re: perfect editorial comment (GeneWeber) 28. 10:51 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (Bill Church) 29. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (Steve Glass) 30. 11:23 AM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? () 31. 11:33 AM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment () 32. 12:18 PM - Re: Pietenpol used in TV eposode (Rick Holland) 33. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (HelsperSew@aol.com) 34. 12:53 PM - be creative----it is allowed in our country, the USA (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 35. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (Rick Holland) 36. 12:59 PM - Re: be creative----it is allowed in our country, the USA (Rick Holland) 37. 01:04 PM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (DJ Vegh) 38. 01:24 PM - Re: IFR Model A Smoke System (shad bell) 39. 02:07 PM - Fuselage gussets (Bill Church) 40. 02:17 PM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (LWATCDR) 41. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (walt evans) 42. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: alum wing (Phillips, Jack) 43. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (Steve Eldredge) 44. 02:36 PM - electroplated (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 45. 02:42 PM - make that (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 46. 02:51 PM - Re: Fuselage gussets (Bill Church) 47. 03:04 PM - Re: make that (Steve Eldredge) 48. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (DJ Vegh) 49. 04:19 PM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (Steve Eldredge) 50. 04:24 PM - Re: Re: alum wing (Rick Holland) 51. 04:56 PM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (DJ Vegh) 52. 05:21 PM - Re: Aluminum Wing? (Kirk, Bruce) 53. 05:32 PM - Re: Fuselage gussets (amsafetyc@aol.com) 54. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (Rick Holland) 55. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing? (Clif Dawson) 56. 06:38 PM - Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? (Clif Dawson) 57. 08:02 PM - How a Magneto works : e-gap (Rcaprd@aol.com) 58. 08:26 PM - Re: Magneto tools (Rcaprd@aol.com) 59. 09:14 PM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology (bike.mike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing? From: Maybe there is a limit to the size of wing that can be built using aluminum spars.I know they use total metal wings on the Citabria at our field for pulling the gliders up and there hasn't been any problems with those wings as far as I know. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: You missed the little smiley guy on his side there winking his eye.Did I hit a nerve there?HAHAHA! Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marc Dumay Sent: March 27, 2007 11:09 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Why would you, or any one else even consider an Aluminum Wing for a Pietenpol? A Pietenpol is a Pietenpol Aluminum is great, great for some other type and purpose. To inflict such an idea upon a nostalgic design, and a bit of Aviation History is outright wrong. Lets make sure if one is built, that its ramped as far away as possible from the real Pietenpol builders. Cloth and wood, is what makes a Pietenpol as great as it is. No offense intended. LOL Captain Marcus, On Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:03 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Guys, I like all your ideas for re-naming the Piet made of aluminum, but there is already a name for this airplane. It's called an RV. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing? From: Ya ,a weight advantage.Like maybe if we took the wing from the Lazair ultralight which is 36 ' wing span and put that on the old Piet,eh.Then we could call it a Lapiet or Pietlaz,something Mexican like that eh?;-0 Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GeneWeber Sent: March 27, 2007 4:39 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing? Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also be a "GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink] Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane craftsman, sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum wing. I'm trying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real experience/data with the AirCamper in this regard. Regards, Gene Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103262#103262 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:21 AM PST US From: "bike.mike" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing? How about Frankencamper? > > Ya ,a weight advantage.Like maybe if we took the wing from the Lazair > ultralight which is 36 ' wing span and put that on the old Piet,eh.Then > we could call it a Lapiet or Pietlaz,something Mexican like that eh?;-0 > > > Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:31 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: "GeneWeber" Captain, Then I guess you feel the retractable gear will be a mistake? [Wink] Regards, Gene Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103374#103374 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:55 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Editorial comment: I have to chuckle when I read some of these posts that are serious when making suggestions to change the Piet into an airliner. Some guys have A.D.D. and want to analyze every aspect of construction to death, thereby extending an already long, arduous process and making it into an impossible one. Prediction: These same guys will never finish and fly. The airplane is already fully designed and engineered- It was all done by a guy named Bernard Pietenpol. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: If you can find room in the wing then by all means ,go for it! -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GeneWeber Sent: March 28, 2007 8:36 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Captain, Then I guess you feel the retractable gear will be a mistake? [Wink] Regards, Gene Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103374#103374 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: RIGHT! Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: March 28, 2007 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Editorial comment: I have to chuckle when I read some of these posts that are serious when making suggestions to change the Piet into an airliner. Some guys have A.D.D. and want to analyze every aspect of construction to death, thereby extending an already long, arduous process and making it into an impossible one. Prediction: These same guys will never finish and fly. The airplane is already fully designed and engineered- It was all done by a guy named Bernard Pietenpol. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:43 AM PST US From: "baileys" Subject: Pietenpol-List: The last Pietenpol? was aluminum wing IMHO There is no doubt the Mr. Pietenpol was a genius, he was also a very inovative person. One wonders what is opinion would be on a discussion like this. That said, one must respect the opinions of those who hold great affection for the orginial Piet design. It is a true classic. On the other hand, It would be nice to see a modern version of the Piet emerge that embodied the same characteristics as the orginial. Maybe it should be called the Un-Piet. The GN-1 was a step in that direction, but it too is getting a little "long in the tooth." Piper Cub landing gears are pretty hard to find. The cost of certified a/c spruce has gone completely off the chart. Maybe the best thing would be to have a two groups of Pietenpol fans; one for the tradtionlist and one for the experimentors?? Both under the same association, of course. IMHO We had better stay at least somewhat united, in our current political climate in a few years it may be illegal to own a private airplane. Between the environmentalists, the airlines, the FAA and the legal community it will be almost a miracle if the small VFR only aircraft will even exsist. Also the EAA has all but abandoned the orginal core group so there is not likely to be much help for the Piet from them. Just the musings of an old fool, Bob B. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: perfect editorial comment From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" I love this line from Dan H. Some guys have A.D.D. and want to analyze every aspect of construction to death, thereby extending an already long, arduous process and making it into an impossible one. Prediction: These same guys will never finish and fly. The airplane is already fully designed and engineered- It was all done by a guy named Bernard Pietenpol. By the way, Dan's plane is on the gear, his wings and tailfeathers are done and it looks very clean. I notice the same trend when out at the airport working on the plane or getting ready to fly. Some guys like to come up and suggest 15 different ways I could be changing my oil instead of actually doing something. They like to hear themselves talk I think. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: laminated wing spar: popsicle sticks From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Did you guys hear about the ice cream salesman up in Minnesota who used to ask all the kids on his ice cream route to save their popsicle sticks and give them back to him so he could build a Pietenpol spar out of laminated popsicle sticks ? After all they are clear wood usually with no knots. The story is totally false: I made it up, but I could see a homebuilder trying to do something like this. Perhaps it has happened, but the plane most likely never flew. Mike C. do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:39 AM PST US From: "James" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Talk about prejudice! As far away as possible from the real Pietenpol builders?? Pietenpols are one of the most diversely built airplanes there are. More variety of engines have been put in Pete's than just about any airplane in existence. George Read's Piet/Jenny was heavily modded and it flew beautiful, I know because I had the pleasure of flying it. Maybe we should consider BP a sinner since he was ALWAYS modding his planes beyond the original design?! If BP was still with us I'm sure he would approve of the modding and experimentation of some builders with his planes, since he was one himself! I'm normally lurking here quietly but, sometimes I feel the need to speak up. Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marc Dumay Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:09 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Why would you, or any one else even consider an Aluminum Wing for a Pietenpol? A Pietenpol is a Pietenpol Aluminum is great, great for some other type and purpose. To inflict such an idea upon a nostalgic design, and a bit of Aviation History is outright wrong. Lets make sure if one is built, that its ramped as far away as possible from the real Pietenpol builders. Cloth and wood, is what makes a Pietenpol as great as it is. No offense intended. LOL Captain Marcus, On Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:12 AM PST US From: "Robert Gow" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: The last Pietenpol? was aluminum wing If the Volks Plane was available with tandem seating it would be a good choice for a "modern" piet substitute. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of baileys Sent: March 28, 2007 8:11 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: The last Pietenpol? was aluminum wing IMHO There is no doubt the Mr. Pietenpol was a genius, he was also a very inovative person. One wonders what is opinion would be on a discussion like this. That said, one must respect the opinions of those who hold great affection for the orginial Piet design. It is a true classic. On the other hand, It would be nice to see a modern version of the Piet emerge that embodied the same characteristics as the orginial. Maybe it should be called the Un-Piet. The GN-1 was a step in that direction, but it too is getting a little "long in the tooth." Piper Cub landing gears are pretty hard to find. The cost of certified a/c spruce has gone completely off the chart. Maybe the best thing would be to have a two groups of Pietenpol fans; one for the tradtionlist and one for the experimentors?? Both under the same association, of course. IMHO We had better stay at least somewhat united, in our current political climate in a few years it may be illegal to own a private airplane. Between the environmentalists, the airlines, the FAA and the legal community it will be almost a miracle if the small VFR only aircraft will even exsist. Also the EAA has all but abandoned the orginal core group so there is not likely to be much help for the Piet from them. Just the musings of an old fool, Bob B. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:16 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Guys, OK now I am really riled-up. I agree with the Captain. Make sure all the aluminum "Pietenmorfs" are on the way other side of the ramp from mine and all the other "real" Piets!!!! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:37 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: laminated wing spar: popsicle sticks From: Shades of the Mcgiver airplane made out of tarps from Canadian tire and bamboo with a Kowasaki engine.Yahooo! Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] Sent: March 28, 2007 9:20 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: laminated wing spar: popsicle sticks Did you guys hear about the ice cream salesman up in Minnesota who used to ask all the kids on his ice cream route to save their popsicle sticks and give them back to him so he could build a Pietenpol spar out of laminated popsicle sticks ? After all they are clear wood usually with no knots. The story is totally false: I made it up, but I could see a homebuilder trying to do something like this. Perhaps it has happened, but the plane most likely never flew. Mike C. do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: Can we have a pint together anyway;-0 Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: March 28, 2007 9:41 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Guys, OK now I am really riled-up. I agree with the Captain. Make sure all the aluminum "Pietenmorfs" are on the way other side of the ramp from mine and all the other "real" Piets!!!! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:58 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? OK, I may soften my stance, as long as your buying. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: softening From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Okay.....now I'm softening too. Harvey is buying ? Javier brought some very nice things from Mexico in 2005 that we really enjoyed. There is a really nice stand of trees wayyyyy across the normal area at Brodhead for Pietenmorfs. Nice, quiet, secluded:)) do not archive Now you guys are getting to be more fun. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:21 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: I knew you guys would come around to my way of thinking.I got another idea while I was driving around;how bout we put a letter after each Pietenpol;like F for Franklin engine,C for Corvair,SP for spoked wheels,G for Grega,SU for Subaru,R for radio equipped,E for electric start.Sort of like the way the big boys do it when they modified their aircraft.In my case it would be Pietenpol,E,F,G,R.When we go to flyins with this on the side of our planes it will cause even more discussion about our planes and everybody who comes near will have to be informed of what these letters mean or they get to buy me a beer for every letter you get correct.That way we'll never get home,HAHAHA! Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: March 28, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? OK, I may soften my stance, as long as your buying. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:45 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: Sorry about that one guys ;spoked wheels are not a mod.I just looked up the web page and took a look at the originals and there they are with spoked wheels,my apologies.Oh by the way,I can't make it to Broadhead this year since I'll be in Haliberton.I'll have to buy next year! Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rule, Harvey G (N092740) Sent: March 28, 2007 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? I knew you guys would come around to my way of thinking.I got another idea while I was driving around;how bout we put a letter after each Pietenpol;like F for Franklin engine,C for Corvair,SP for spoked wheels,G for Grega,SU for Subaru,R for radio equipped,E for electric start.Sort of like the way the big boys do it when they modified their aircraft.In my case it would be Pietenpol,E,F,G,R.When we go to flyins with this on the side of our planes it will cause even more discussion about our planes and everybody who comes near will have to be informed of what these letters mean or they get to buy me a beer for every letter you get correct.That way we'll never get home,HAHAHA! Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: March 28, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? OK, I may soften my stance, as long as your buying. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:45 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: alum wing Dick, Excuse my butting in on your mail. Have a builder here in Shreveport who I called when I read your post because he is building a Volmer. I told him of the proposal to try and build a fuse at SNF. He is very interested and will probably attend. Name is: Chris Erickson 318 7974321 OFF 8615005 RES _glider1@msn.com_ (mailto:glider1@msn.com) He would be interested in a Volmer contact Corky ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:54 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Harvey, That is real convenient of you to suddenly realize you can't make it to Brodhead, after promising all those beers. I was beginning to feel a little light-headed already in anticipation. Now somebody else is going to have to step up to the plate. (I am a little short this year due to financial reversals, otherwise I would volunteer) :0) Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:04 AM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: alum wing Thanks Corky I have been looking for other builders, there arent many. I will call him. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: alum wing Dick, Excuse my butting in on your mail. Have a builder here in Shreveport who I called when I read your post because he is building a Volmer. I told him of the proposal to try and build a fuse at SNF. He is very interested and will probably attend. Name is: Chris Erickson 318 7974321 OFF 8615005 RES glider1@msn.com He would be interested in a Volmer contact Corky ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- AOL now offersle="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" href="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" target="_blank">AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:58 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: Now I feel really bad about that Dan.There's always next year,hang in there.I'm really lookin forward to seeing all you guys and I'd really love to fly down instead of driving down if I could. Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: March 28, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Harvey, That is real convenient of you to suddenly realize you can't make it to Brodhead, after promising all those beers. I was beginning to feel a little light-headed already in anticipation. Now somebody else is going to have to step up to the plate. (I am a little short this year due to financial reversals, otherwise I would volunteer) :0) Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ AOL at AOL.com . ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:57 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: alum wing From: "GeneWeber" Hello Jack, I've been lurking here for a while. Downloaded the archives and have been reading through it so I don't re-ask questions. Bought the EAA book on building with wood and read that. Bought WW's Corvair conversion manual and read that. Bought all 4 Tony Bingelis books and am in the process of reading them. I'm a responsible middle aged engineering manager with a wife, two kids, blah, blah who wants to build a plane and do it right. Everything I've read or heard indicates that climb performance is going to be directly related to the power to weight ratio. So as Tony Bingelis recommends I'm trying to "think light", "build light". My question was in regards to a "standard" aluminum wing, nothing strange, unique or high tech. I've heard they are lighter than wood. I simply asked if anyone had any real world data on that with an AirCamper. Seemed prudent to see if "lighter" means 8 oz, or 15 lbs. Hardly think that means I "need my head examined". Gene BTW: I am also considering building a Sonex, Zenith 601, or FFP Celebrity. My 15 year old daughter is lobbying for the AirCamper or Celebrity. I'm concerned the Celebrity is probably too complicated for a first aircraft project. I'm still trying to weigh the plusses and minuses of the others. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103456#103456 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:36 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment From: "GeneWeber" Wow, I'm sorry I asked anything. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103466#103466 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: "Bill Church" That might work Harvey, For example, let's say a guy wanted to make his "Piet" a little more Streamlined, and used Pop-rivetted Aluminum for a Modernized look, with a Canopy, and Air conditioning, and a Nosewheel. Of course, these are a lot of changes, and the result might be so different from the original design that it probably wouldn't be recognized as a Pietenpol, so maybe he could just drop the "Pietenpol" and just go with the letters that follow... do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? ... how bout we put a letter after each Pietenpol;like F for Franklin engine,C for Corvair,SP for spoked wheels,G for Grega,SU for Subaru,R for radio equipped,E for electric start ... ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:44 AM PST US From: "Steve Glass" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" Hi Gene Do not get upset. I have been lurking on this list for over a year. I'm on here because perhaps one day I will build a Pietenpol. I will not be afraid to modify as I see fit. I want to add all the lightness I can. Its my butt after all. Some people seem to think the plans were carved in stone and handed down from a mountain and to change the slighest think will result or should result in death. As a nation we have seemed to become very polarized. If you do not believe what I do you are evil and stupid. I think the world would be a very boring place if we all thought the same and drove the same kind of car and built the same kind of airplane. This list is great, the information is fantastic and the ultimate end should be to have fun doing what you enjoy. I would like to hear more about the "new airfoil" Steve in Maine >From: "GeneWeber" . >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment >Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:25:21 -0700 > > >Wow, I'm sorry I asked anything. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103466#103466 > > _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? From: I love it Bill,sounds great to me! Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: March 28, 2007 1:51 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? That might work Harvey, For example, let's say a guy wanted to make his "Piet" a little more Streamlined, and used Pop-rivetted Aluminum for a Modernized look, with a Canopy, and Air conditioning, and a Nosewheel. Of course, these are a lot of changes, and the result might be so different from the original design that it probably wouldn't be recognized as a Pietenpol, so maybe he could just drop the "Pietenpol" and just go with the letters that follow... do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? ... how bout we put a letter after each Pietenpol;like F for Franklin engine,C for Corvair,SP for spoked wheels,G for Grega,SU for Subaru,R for radio equipped,E for electric start ... ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:46 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment From: HAHAHA;It's OK to ask Gene,don't be sorry.We love to tease these guys from time to time about this and that.It's all good fun.They are a great bunch and they know a lot of stuff.Enjoy.The list hasn't been this lively in a while! Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GeneWeber Sent: March 28, 2007 1:25 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment Wow, I'm sorry I asked anything. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103466#103466 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:12 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List:Pietenpol used in TV eposode Maybe on History International channel. I really don't know if it'll ever air in the USA. You realize that Vimy > was before the US entered the war. So its not part of US history. The > History Television channel in Canada is owned by a company in Georgia. So I > would imagine that if enough people sent an email to them they might show it > in the US. > > > *===================================== > > * > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:16 PM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" <> Gene, Its funny that you bring up the plans "being carved in stone". You may not know this, but it is a little known fact that when Moses came down from the mountain after being gone for awhile, he originally had two stone tablets, but when he approached the camp and saw that some had tried to change their allegiance, he got so mad that he threw down and broke the tablets. One of the stones contained the commandment something about "Thou shalt not adulterate the original BHP plans". Be careful. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:02 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: be creative----it is allowed in our country, the USA From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" I hope that everyone enjoys all this going back and forth because this is what freedom is all about in the United States of America and for one to jab another and say "you're wasting your time" or " go for it---we would love a metal spar" is WAYYYYY better than pussyfotting around like everyone is trying to force us to do in becoming politically correct. We don't have to agree on what airfoil to use---we can say BS, or YES, or thumbs up or down and here is why. This list is more USA than the USA is anymore. The GN-1/ Piet issue comes up from time to time and I've flown a GN-1 and a Piet and they BOTH fly nice ! There are lots of little differences but in America YOU CHOOSE ! Yippppie ! They don't even allow homebuilt aircraft in most countries let alone let you use some 75 year old auto engine in them ! We are really fortunate to be able to spout off like this and not it censored. Keep up the great posts and debates and build whatever kind of wing or plane you want and modify to your hearts content ! Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:17 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" I think you are mistaken Dan, Moses originally had 3 tablets with 15 commandments and broke one of the three leaving us with only 10 commandments (watch Monty Python's History of the World Part 1). You are correct though that one the 5 lost commandments was "Thou shall not abominate thou Pietenpol plans". However if God had intended us to abide by that commandment he would not have allowed the third tablet to break. Rick do not archive On 3/28/07, HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: > > > < > from a mountain and to change the slighest think will result or should > result in death >> > > Gene, > Its funny that you bring up the plans "being carved in stone". You may not > know this, but it is a little known fact that when Moses came down from the > mountain after being gone for awhile, he originally had two stone tablets, > but when he approached the camp and saw that some had tried to change their > allegiance, he got so mad that he threw down and broke the tablets. One of > the stones contained the commandment something about "Thou shalt not > adulterate the original BHP plans". Be careful. > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > do not archive > > > ------------------------------ > See what's free at AOL.com . > > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:50 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: be creative----it is allowed in our country, the USA Right on Mikey. Rick in CO On 3/28/07, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] wrote: > > > I hope that everyone enjoys all this going back and forth because this is > what freedom is all about in the United States > of America and for one to jab another and say "you're wasting your time" > or " go for it---we would love a metal spar" is > WAYYYYY better than pussyfotting around like everyone is trying to force > us to do in becoming politically correct. We don't > have to agree on what airfoil to use---we can say BS, or YES, or thumbs up > or down and here is why. This list is more USA > than the USA is anymore. The GN-1/ Piet issue comes up from time to > time and I've flown a GN-1 and a Piet and they BOTH > fly nice ! There are lots of little differences but in America YOU > CHOOSE ! Yippppie ! They don't even allow homebuilt > aircraft in most countries let alone let you use some 75 year old auto > engine in them ! We are really fortunate to be able to > spout off like this and not it censored. Keep up the great posts and > debates and build whatever kind of wing or plane you want > and modify to your hearts content ! > > Mike C. in Ohio > > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:10 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" I thought some guy in the 1827 found that tablet in New York and it had been electroplated in gold.... much like a piece of costume jewelry. DJ Vegh veghdesign.com Mesa, AZ 602.743.5768 "Where there's a will there's a Vegh" - ----- Original Message ----- From: HelsperSew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" <> Gene, Its funny that you bring up the plans "being carved in stone". You may not know this, but it is a little known fact that when Moses came down from the mountain after being gone for awhile, he originally had two stone tablets, but when he approached the camp and saw that some had tried to change their allegiance, he got so mad that he threw down and broke the tablets. One of the stones contained the commandment something about "Thou shalt not adulterate the original BHP plans". Be careful. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:53 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: IFR Model A Smoke System You could put some worn out piston rings in it at overhaul. Ha ha just kidding Shad Guys, Could somebody please dream up a method of attaching a smoke system on a model A? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. --------------------------------- AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage gussets From: "Bill Church" Today I was looking through different Pietenpol Builder's Logs on the mykitplane.com website, and noticed that one builder (John Recine, who I believe is active on this list) seems to have missed a very important detail. When building the fuselage sides, the plywood gussets have to be applied to BOTH sides of the truss BEFORE joining the sides together. >From the picture here: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=14 7 0&PlaneID=569&FName=John&LName=Recine&PlaneName=Air%20Camper it seems that the gussets have not been installed. It might not be immediately obvious from the plans, but look at the small detail in the attached photo (gusset note.JPG). Also see the photo borrowed from the Pietenpol family website (bhp fuse.JPG), and finally, take a look at Peter Johnson's photo (Peter's fuse.JPG). I included Peter's picture just because it's so nice and clear - he has a great website: http://www.cpc-world.com/ I draw attention to this because this is an important detail. In these wooden truss constructions, the gussets carry almost all of the load. To demonstrate the value of gussets, try building a wing rib without those piddly little 1/16" thick gussets, and compare it to a rib built with gussets on one side, and then compare it to a rib built with gussets on both sides - the way it's supposed to be built. The difference will be incredible. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:29 PM PST US From: LWATCDR Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? I know that some people are using an Aluminum wet wing on the Wittman Tailwind. An Aluminum wing could be lighter than a wood wing. They do call it experimental for a reason. Frankly I am tempted to try use a VW TDI in mine when I get around to building it. On 3/27/07, Marc Dumay wrote: > > Why would you, or any one else even consider an Aluminum Wing for a > Pietenpol? > A Pietenpol is a Pietenpol > > Aluminum is great, great for some other type and purpose. > To inflict such an idea upon a nostalgic design, and a bit of Aviation > History is outright wrong. > > Lets make sure if one is built, that its ramped as far away as possible > from the real Pietenpol builders. > > Cloth and wood, is what makes a Pietenpol as great as it is. > > No offense intended. LOL > > Captain Marcus, On > > > [image: Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!] > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:28 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" Steve, Most people who are thinking of building Pietenpols some how get the feeling that Bernard Pietenpol's plans are an evil plot. Or a pinch in your side from an older brother at dinner. Or the Joker from Batman trying to lead you astray. My advise is to be thankful that his plans are available, That he built many prototypes to perfect the lightest, strongest, best designed plane he could. Don't Dis the man. Wrong to want to build the plane to plans for the purpose of changing stuff,,,,,and alot of people do. Don't try to reinvent the wheel, or the phonograph. If you don't like the Pietenpol,,,,build something else. A fact,,,If you change stuff, you'll make it heavier,,,guarenteed Walt Evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Glass" Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 2:02 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" > > > Hi Gene > > Do not get upset. I have been lurking on this list for over a year. I'm > on here because perhaps one day I will build a Pietenpol. I will not be > afraid to modify as I see fit. I want to add all the lightness I can. > Its my butt after all. > > Some people seem to think the plans were carved in stone and handed down > from a mountain and to change the slighest think will result or should > result in death. > > As a nation we have seemed to become very polarized. If you do not > believe what I do you are evil and stupid. I think the world would be a > very boring place if we all thought the same and drove the same kind of > car and built the same kind of airplane. > > This list is great, the information is fantastic and the ultimate end > should be to have fun doing what you enjoy. > > I would like to hear more about the "new airfoil" > > Steve in Maine > >>From: "GeneWeber" . >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment >>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:25:21 -0700 >> >> >>Wow, I'm sorry I asked anything. >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103466#103466 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. > http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:31 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: alum wing From: "Phillips, Jack" You missed my point, Gene. If you want to build a conventional stressed skin aluminum wing, similar to the RV-10 I'm currently building, you will find it to be boring and tedious compared to the woodworking for a conventional Pietenpol. THAT's why you would need your head examined. I just find after building a Pietenpol, that building a sheetmetal aircraft is not as much fun. If you are talking about an aluminum frame, such as a Piper J-3 used, I doubt it would save much weight. Maybe a little, but most of the weight of a Pietenpol wing I find to be in the fabric and paint. My wing panels weighed 40 lbs each (3 piece wing) before covering. After covering and painting they weighed close to 70 lbs each. You can do more to save weight by using the light weight fabric, and minimal paint (leave it silver). Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposable Research & Development Cardinal Health, Clinical Technologies & Services Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GeneWeber Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: alum wing Hello Jack, I've been lurking here for a while. Downloaded the archives and have been reading through it so I don't re-ask questions. Bought the EAA book on building with wood and read that. Bought WW's Corvair conversion manual and read that. Bought all 4 Tony Bingelis books and am in the process of reading them. I'm a responsible middle aged engineering manager with a wife, two kids, blah, blah who wants to build a plane and do it right. Everything I've read or heard indicates that climb performance is going to be directly related to the power to weight ratio. So as Tony Bingelis recommends I'm trying to "think light", "build light". My question was in regards to a "standard" aluminum wing, nothing strange, unique or high tech. I've heard they are lighter than wood. I simply asked if anyone had any real world data on that with an AirCamper. Seemed prudent to see if "lighter" means 8 oz, or 15 lbs. Hardly think that means I "need my head examined". Gene BTW: I am also considering building a Sonex, Zenith 601, or FFP Celebrity. My 15 year old daughter is lobbying for the AirCamper or Celebrity. I'm concerned the Celebrity is probably too complicated for a first aircraft project. I'm still trying to weigh the plusses and minuses of the others. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103456#103456 _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:46 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" From: "Steve Eldredge" Not quite electroplated, and it was gold, I happen to know the story well. It was translated and published in 1830, I could send you a copy DJ if you're interested! Steve Eldredge Spanish Fork (UTAH!) steve@byu.edu From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" I thought some guy in the 1827 found that tablet in New York and it had been electroplated in gold.... much like a piece of costume jewelry. DJ Vegh veghdesign.com Mesa, AZ 602.743.5768 "Where there's a will there's a Vegh" - ----- Original Message ----- From: HelsperSew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" <> Gene, Its funny that you bring up the plans "being carved in stone". You may not know this, but it is a little known fact that when Moses came down from the mountain after being gone for awhile, he originally had two stone tablets, but when he approached the camp and saw that some had tried to change their allegiance, he got so mad that he threw down and broke the tablets. One of the stones contained the commandment something about "Thou shalt not adulterate the original BHP plans". Be careful. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ________________________________ See what's free at AOL.com . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat r onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:07 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: electroplated From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Not quite electroplated, and it was gold, I happen to know the story well. It was translated and published in 1830, I could send you a copy DJ Don't fall for it DJ.....read the last verse in Revelation before you jump onto that bandwagon ! ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:59 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: make that From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Revelation 22:18.......it is really clear. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:05 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage gussets From: "Bill Church" Let me correct one statement I just made. What I wrote was: "In these wooden truss constructions, the gussets carry almost all of the load." What I meant to say was that the gussets provide almost all of the strength at the joints. The loads are carried through the members of the truss - but without strong joints, the structure will fail at the joints. However, the main point remains... Make sure you use the gussets. Sorry for the mix-up. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:34 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: make that From: "Steve Eldredge" Mike C, I'll bow out (offline, if interested) on this topic since I don' t want to kill a fun thread. I don't think piet folks particularly want (or intended) this turning religious, but I couldn't resist the fun-poking inference to the Mormon faith. Steve (quite comfortable with Rev 22:18 too) E steve@byu.edu From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: make that Revelation 22:18.......it is really clear. ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:22 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" I know the story well also. I work directly with no less than 50 LDS members every day. I'm always giving them a hard time and they enjoy hammering right back at me. DJ Vegh veghdesign.com Mesa, AZ 602.743.5768 "Where there's a will there's a Vegh" - ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Eldredge To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 2:25 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" Not quite electroplated, and it was gold, I happen to know the story well. It was translated and published in 1830, I could send you a copy DJ if you're interested! Steve Eldredge Spanish Fork (UTAH!) steve@byu.edu From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 1:59 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" I thought some guy in the 1827 found that tablet in New York and it had been electroplated in gold.... much like a piece of costume jewelry. DJ Vegh veghdesign.com Mesa, AZ 602.743.5768 "Where there's a will there's a Vegh" - ----- Original Message ----- From: HelsperSew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" <> Gene, Its funny that you bring up the plans "being carved in stone". You may not know this, but it is a little known fact that when Moses came down from the mountain after being gone for awhile, he originally had two stone tablets, but when he approached the camp and saw that some had tried to change their allegiance, he got so mad that he threw down and broke the tablets. One of the stones contained the commandment something about "Thou shalt not adulterate the original BHP plans". Be careful. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- See what's free at AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:34 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" From: "Steve Eldredge" There you have it. I too work with a lot of LDS, (about 30,000 of them J BYU is a private LDS university). Interestingly, about 5 years ago I got a call from a fellow piet builder, and lister who joined the LDS church and wanted to let me know that it was partly due to the friendliness of this list that influenced his interest in learning more about it. For those of you who are wondering what this has to do with Pietenpols, here is a little history: I started building my piet while serving as an LDS bishop, and started this list on a BYU listserve in 1995. Although I'm just a participant of the list now, as the moderator in the early days, I stressed good relations, no swearing, and no flaming. I unsubscribed any violators so the piet list would remain user friendly, and clean. I am very pleased that these qualities have endured, and the reputation of the list is still a good one. Over the years I have enjoyed meeting many members of the list at Brodhead, and visiting virtually with many others. May the online piet community continue timeless, like the Pietenpol Aircamper itself has for so many decades... (now thanks to Matt Dralle's work) Best regards to all, Steve E. PS, For the record, I thought it was a witty quip. ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:56 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: alum wing Or using only latex paint without silver? Rick > > > If you are talking about an aluminum frame, such as a Piper J-3 used, I > doubt it would save much weight. Maybe a little, but most of the weight of > a Pietenpol wing I find to be in the fabric and paint. My wing panels > weighed 40 lbs each (3 piece wing) before covering. After covering and > painting they weighed close to 70 lbs each. You can do more to save weig ht > by using the light weight fabric, and minimal paint (leave it silver). > > Jack Phillips, PE > Sr. Manager, Disposable Research & Development > Cardinal Health, Clinical Technologies & Services > Creedmoor, NC > (919) 528-5212 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GeneWeber > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:52 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: alum wing > > > Hello Jack, > > I've been lurking here for a while. Downloaded the archives and have been > reading through it so I don't re-ask questions. Bought the EAA book on > building with wood and read that. Bought WW's Corvair conversion manual a nd > read that. Bought all 4 Tony Bingelis books and am in the process of read ing > them. I'm a responsible middle aged engineering manager with a wife, two > kids, blah, blah who wants to build a plane and do it right. Ev erything > I've read or heard indicates that climb performance is going to be direct ly > related to the power to weight ratio. So as Tony Bingelis recommends I'm > trying to "think light", "build light". My question was in regards to a > "standard" aluminum wing, nothing strange, unique or high tech. I've hear d > they are lighter than wood. I simply asked if anyone had any real world d ata > on that with an AirCamper. Seemed prudent to see if "lighter" means 8 oz, or > 15 lbs. Hardly think that means I "need my head examined". > > Gene > > BTW: I am also considering building a Sonex, Zenith 601, or FFP Celebrity .. > My 15 year old daughter is lobbying for the AirCamper or Celebrity. I'm > concerned the Celebrity is probably too complicated for a first aircraft > project. I'm still trying to weigh the plusses and minuses of the others. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103456#103456 > > > _________________________________________________ > > =========== =========== =========== > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:56 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" I am a member of many forums and email lists. Quite a few of them get downright nasty. I've never seen anything near that level on this Piet list and I've been on here for about 5 years I guess. In that 5 years on other forums I've seen guys get so fumed that they were ready to fistfight... and I'm not exaggerating. this list is the shizzle. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Eldredge To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" There you have it. I too work with a lot of LDS, (about 30,000 of them J BYU is a private LDS university). Interestingly, about 5 years ago I got a call from a fellow piet builder, and lister who joined the LDS church and wanted to let me know that it was partly due to the friendliness of this list that influenced his interest in learning more about it. For those of you who are wondering what this has to do with Pietenpols, here is a little history: I started building my piet while serving as an LDS bishop, and started this list on a BYU listserve in 1995. Although I'm just a participant of the list now, as the moderator in the early days, I stressed good relations, no swearing, and no flaming. I unsubscribed any violators so the piet list would remain user friendly, and clean. I am very pleased that these qualities have endured, and the reputation of the list is still a good one. Over the years I have enjoyed meeting many members of the list at Brodhead, and visiting virtually with many others. May the online piet community continue timeless, like the Pietenpol Aircamper itself has for so many decades. (now thanks to Matt Dralle's work) Best regards to all, Steve E. PS, For the record, I thought it was a witty quip. ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:03 PM PST US From: "Kirk, Bruce" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing? Pieter's check out Wag-Aero for aluminium spar extrusions. They have them for their Wag-Aero designs. B.Kirk On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:53:08 -0600 "Graham Hansen" wrote: > > > Perhaps 15 years ago, I built a sample Pietenpol wing >rib from .020" 2024 T3 aluminum alloy angles as a design >study. It was relatively easy to fabricate, and took less >time than making a standard Pietenpol rib. I never >pursued the concept and gave it to a friend who still has >it. > > The plan was to use wooden spars with aluminum ribs, >leading edge skin and trailing edge in much the same way >the wings of a Cub, Taylorcraft or Aeronca were built. It >was felt that some weight could be saved by doing so. In >any case, I would like to see someone try this approach; >it won't be me because, as BHP used to say, "I've had too >many birthdays!". > > If one could find extruded aluminum spars similar to >those used on Piper airplanes, an all-metal wing >structure could be had (fabric-covered, of course). Using >blank Cub type spar extrusions would require changing the >airfoil section, and this likely wouldn't be acceptable >to Pietenpol lovers (myself included). I don't know if >any weight could be saved by using metal spars, somebody >out there will likely check this out. > > It would be virtually impossible to save weight in the >"tail feathers" by going to metal. The wooden empennage >is just about as light as it is possible to make it, and >there is no advantage in abandoning the standard wooden >version. I built a steel tubing fuselage years ago and >sold it to a fellow who finished the airplane. The tail >surfaces were of steel tubing with light steel channel >ribs. While the basic fuselage structure was lighter than >the wooden one, there wasn't much difference by the time >the seat supports, brackets for controls, etc. were >added. Nevertheless, the completed airplane flew well and >its empty weight was about average for the type. > > I don't think it would be inappropriate for someone to >design an all-metal wing structure, provided the >appearance of the Pietenpol airplane isn't compromised >too much. An alternative to scarce and expensive aircraft >quality spruce would be beneficial, in my humble opinion. > > Go for it! > > Graham Hansen [Pietenpol CF-AUN (wood >structure) in Alberta, Canada] > > > > > >page, >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >Forums! > > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage gussets From: amsafetyc@aol.com Actually not a missed detail but an intentional build step. I really saw nothing in the instructions that required the gussets to be applied before joining the sides. I opted to stress the wood in the shaping jig then apply the gussets, reason being is; why not support a bent or stressed member, with an unstressed gusset and use it a a counter stress measure. Combined with rationale of an unstressed gusset will add more strength and stability to a stressed joint. I a used the process as a quality control measure to stress unsupported joints to identify any and all joints that may need additional attention. The ungussettedjoints gave me a chance to keep an eye on all the joints and to refill or repair any joints that may appear to not handle the bending stress well. I viewed the early gusset installation while flat and in the side jig cover all the joints and do not permit inspection during the bending stress tempering of the joints that occurs during the bending process. I wanted to be sure I could see all the joint under basic bending stress of joining them before enclosing them in the gusset plates. The gusset plates were deliberately omitted in the flat jig configuration to allow for a good visual inspection under stress and quality control measure. Gussets will be installed once I am convinced the raw joints are as good as can be and capable of handling the bending pressures of the joining process. Which, when added while the frames is under bending stress should be more effective in supporting the structure. Thanks for the pick up on that crucial construction element, that one was planned. This being my first airplane I am certain to make other not so glaring decisions that will most certainly require correction so I do appreciate any and all constructive criticisms. With your help and watchful eye I will build a safe Piet. Thanks all John Recine -----Original Message----- From: eng@canadianrogers.com Sent: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 5:03 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage gussets Today I was looking through different Pietenpol Builder's Logs on the mykitplane.com website, and noticed that one builder (John Recine, who I believe is active on this list) seems to have missed a very important detail. When building the fuselage sides, the plywood gussets have to be applied to BOTH sides of the truss BEFORE joining the sides together. From the picture here: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=1470&PlaneID=569&FName=John&LName=Recine&PlaneName=Air%20Camper it seems that the gussets have not been installed. It might not be immediately obvious from the plans, but look at the small detail in the attached photo (gusset note.JPG). Also see the photo borrowed from the Pietenpol family website (bhp fuse.JPG), and finally, take a look at Peter Johnson's photo (Peter's fuse.JPG). I included Peter's picture just because it's so nice and clear - he has a great website: http://www.cpc-world.com/ I draw attention to this because this is an important detail. In these wooden truss constructions, the gussets carry almost all of the load. To demonstrate the value of gussets, try building a wing rib without those piddly little 1/16" thick gussets, and compare it to a rib built with gussets on one side, and then compare it to a rib built with gussets on both sides - the way it's supposed to be built. The difference will be incredible. Bill C. [Image Removed] [Image Removed] [Image Removed] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:58 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" Good point DJ, it says a lot about the type of person that aspires to build something like a Piet compared to the possibly more aggressive/competitive/ego involved types that wouldn't be seen in somethin g as un-fast/un-F16ish/un-streamlined as a Piet. Apologies to any Harmon Rocket builders in the audience. Rick On 3/28/07, DJ Vegh wrote: > > I am a member of many forums and email lists. Quite a few of them get > downright nasty. I've never seen anything near that level on this Piet l ist > and I've been on here for about 5 years I guess. In that 5 years on othe r > forums I've seen guys get so fumed that they were ready to fistfight... a nd > I'm not exaggerating. > > this list is the shizzle. > > DJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Steve Eldredge > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 28, 2007 4:19 PM > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil " > > There you have it. I too work with a lot of LDS, (about 30,000 of them J > BYU is a private LDS university). > > > Interestingly, about 5 years ago I got a call from a fellow piet builder, > and lister who joined the LDS church and wanted to let me know that it wa s > partly due to the friendliness of this list that influenced his interest in > learning more about it. > > > For those of you who are wondering what this has to do with Pietenpols, > here is a little history: > > > I started building my piet while serving as an LDS bishop, and started > this list on a BYU listserve in 1995. Although I'm just a participant o f > the list now, as the moderator in the early days, I stressed good relatio ns, > no swearing, and no flaming. I unsubscribed any violators so the piet li st > would remain user friendly, and clean. I am very pleased that these > qualities have endured, and the reputation of the list is still a good > one. Over the years I have enjoyed meeting many members of the list at > Brodhead, and visiting virtually with many others. May the online piet > community continue timeless, like the Pietenpol Aircamper itself has for so > many decades=85 (now thanks to Matt Dralle's work) > > > Best regards to all, > > > Steve E. > > > PS, For the record, I thought it was a witty quip. > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > * > > * > =========== w.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =========== =========== > > * > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:44 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing? Now we're talkin. :-) If you did put 'aluminium' spars in there, Captain Nemo, who would ever have to know? Clif "Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right!" ~ Henry Ford > > How about Frankencamper? > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:19 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? Well, the canopy part goes back a long way. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? That might work Harvey, For example, let's say a guy wanted to make his "Piet" a little more Streamlined, and used Pop-rivetted Aluminum for a Modernized look, with a Canopy, and Air conditioning, and a Nosewheel. Of course, these are a lot of changes, and the result might be so different from the original design that it probably wouldn't be recognized as a Pietenpol, so maybe he could just drop the "Pietenpol" and just go with the letters that follow... do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:16 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ????????? Aluminum Wing, Surely you Jest ????????? ... how bout we put a letter after each Pietenpol;like F for Franklin engine,C for Corvair,SP for spoked wheels,G for Grega,SU for Subaru,R for radio equipped,E for electric start ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 3/28/2007 4:23 PM ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:07 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gap In a message dated 3/27/2007 4:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, jimsury@consolidated.net writes: Chuck Are you talking about a T-150 tool for checking the e-gap? I've been looking to purchase one of them tools and was not able to find out who sells them. Checked with Aircraft Spruce and they wanted to sell me the electronic tool for setting the timing. Would appreciate if you have an address of the supplier. I don't think the e-gap setting is gonna imporve the static rpm. I have one mag that I broke the case on and had to replace it. So now I need to set the e-gap. What is happening to me is that the mag is not up to full change whe n it fires. On mag check the engine runs rough on that mag. Not knowing how to set it I just let the points open just as soon as they could which isn't rig ht. Thanks Jim Sury Jim, Yes, the T-150 tool is the one I am talking about. My curiosity was how many other folks actually set the e-gap. I have a need for the tool, becaus e after about 300 hrs of service, I removed the points in the Left mag, to hav e a close look at if there was any burning on the contacts...there was none. Here's how a magneto works: A strong magnet mounted on the shaft, spins within a two part coil, that has windings that are electrically connected on one leg of the circuit, via the points. As the magnet swaps ends within the two part coil, a current ra ces back and forth in a millisecond, between these two windings. The faster it spins, the higher the current. The purpose of the points is to interrupt t his current flow when it is at it's peak...which is called the 'e-gap'. The e stands for 'energy'. You DO NOT adjust the points to a specific gap, you DO adjust the points to crack open at the very instant when this current is at it's peak. It is a very narrow margin, and if it is more than 5 =BA off, it will have a great impact on how much current and voltage goes to the plugs. When the points crack open, the current will flow to the path of least resistance, which is through the distributor and wires, to the spark plugs. The purpose of the Impulse Coupling is two fold: 1) it catches on a cog, and collects Sprin g energy and when it releases it the timing is retarded for easier engine star t ; 2) it spins the magnet at a much higher rate. Once the engine is running, centrifugal force acts upon two spring loaded weights, which does not allow the cogs to catch. When you shut down the engine, as it slows down to below abo ut 100 RPM (maybe 200 rpm) or so, you hear the cogs catching, and spinning the magnet at the faster rate. Now...All I need is a T-150 tool Chuck G. NX770CG ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com .. ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:51 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Magneto tools In a message dated 3/27/2007 8:23:55 PM Central Daylight Time, jbfjr@peoplepc.com writes: Jim, Sacramento Sky Ranch has several tools for working on mags including a T150, here's the link: http://www.sacskyranch.com/acatalog/Sacramento_Sky_Ranch_Magneto_tools_52.html See you Saturday! John F. Thanks, John !! That's what I was looking for, too !! Chuck G. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:47 PM PST US From: "bike.mike" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology This runs a little long, so be forewarned. It isn't a diatribe, but an apology. Here in the United States, FARs were long ago written that enabled licensing and standardization of "Experimental" Aircraft. The purpose was, and remains officially, for "education." In the intervening years, the rules have been used to justify a lot of people building airplanes that achieve something that they otherwise could not achieve, whether it is performance, a replica of an historic airplane, or having any airplane at all. Other people have used the rules to become educated. (Had the rules existed in the 1920s, Bernard Pietenpol would have achieved his phenomenal self-education in aircraft design within them.) Folks on this list come from each of those motivations. Some, call them "type A", want to have a replica of a great series of airplanes, the Pietenpol Aircamper. Type A's consider that only very accurate replicas can legitimately bear the name of the original. These aircraft only have materials and engines (Model A, Corvair) and airfoils that were originally experimented with by BHP himself. The most extreme examples use casein glue and muslin fabric. Others, type B, want to have an airplane that looks mostly like a famous original, yet benefits from part of the 80 years of advances in airplanes that have happened since Bernard started flying off his farm. Type B's use somewhat more modern engines, Continental, Franklin, etc. and use epoxy, Dacron, some even having electrical systems and tail wheels. Mike C, Corky, Jack Phillips, and others are prime examples of fine type B airplane builders who didn't build exact replicas of Bernard's original. I try to fall somewhere between type A and type B. Still others, type C, are on this list for an education. They want to learn what it is like to actually build an airplane, and the Pietenpol looks like a nice, simple, place to start. Type C's also want to relive some of what Bernard did in his experimenting and building days. Bernard certainly didn' t build his original airplanes exactly to someone else's plans; he had to educate himself as he went along. Type C's want to earn some of that education as well. In 80 years, aviation has advanced far, far, beyond what any of the early experimenters saw, or probably imagined. Airframe materials have gone from bamboo and paper to spruce and muslin to aluminum alloys to composites. Engines have gone from unreliable motorcycle derivatives with a power-to-weight ratio of .05 to turbines that achieve ratios of nearly 20 and have actual TBO's measured in decades. The achievable private airplane has evolved from a Piet capable of 80 mph to a turbine powered Lancair that can do way over 300. Type C listers want to learn a little of what drove all that progress. They want the joy of changing this or that and learning how everything else changes. They want to know what drove changing biplanes to monoplanes, and strutted high wings to cantilevered low wings. Type C members of this list actually achieve what was intended with the original Experimental Aircraft FAR's: education and they get much closer to the essence of Bernard Pietenpol than any of the rest of us. I hope that those type C's I've chided about building a Piet in order to build a Piet will accept this as an apology. You are who I would aspire to be if I had the courage. Mike Hardaway ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.