Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Thu 03/29/07


Total Messages Posted: 29



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:27 AM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing? ()
     2. 04:58 AM - Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology (GeneWeber)
     3. 05:10 AM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" ()
     4. 05:13 AM - Re: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology ()
     5. 05:19 AM - new subject lines (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
     6. 06:16 AM - Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology (Oscar Zuniga)
     7. 06:37 AM - Re: D type ()
     8. 07:12 AM - New Airfoil news? (Steve Glass)
     9. 07:51 AM - Re: How a Magneto works : e-gap (gbowen@ptialaska.net)
    10. 08:12 AM - Re: How a Magneto works : e-gap (Jim Sury)
    11. 08:28 AM - Re: How a Magneto works : e-gap ()
    12. 08:37 AM - Aluminum wing structure (BYD@att.net)
    13. 09:00 AM - Re: Aluminum wing structure ()
    14. 09:03 AM - Re: Piet List vs Other Lists (Phillips, Jack)
    15. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" (LWATCDR)
    16. 10:04 AM - Re: Piet List vs Other Lists (Isablcorky@aol.com)
    17. 10:35 AM - Re: Piet List vs Other Lists (Phillips, Jack)
    18. 01:48 PM - You guys are good ! Changing subject lines (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
    19. 02:18 PM - Re: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
    20. 03:35 PM - Re: How a Magneto works : e-gap (walt evans)
    21. 05:17 PM - Metal Gear and Wire Wheels For Sale (Wcbowe@aol.com)
    22. 05:33 PM - Re: Piet List vs Other Lists (gcardinal)
    23. 05:42 PM - need info. (Ben Ramler)
    24. 05:42 PM - Looking for Forrest Lovley (gcardinal)
    25. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology (Rick Holland)
    26. 07:31 PM - Re: New Airfoil news? (Rick Holland)
    27. 07:53 PM - Re: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines (Rick Holland)
    28. 09:27 PM - Re: New Airfoil news? (Catdesigns)
    29. 09:34 PM - Re: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines (Catdesigns)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:27:45 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Aluminum Wing?
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    As my Daddy would say when putting in electrical lines in a house and doing a real neat job of it,right angles etc."I know what it looks like behind those walls and so does the inspector and that's all I need to know" Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: March 28, 2007 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing? Now we're talkin. :-) If you did put 'aluminium' spars in there, Captain Nemo, who would ever have to know? Clif "Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right!" ~ Henry Ford <bike.mike@charter.net> > > How about Frankencamper? >


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:58:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology
    From: "GeneWeber" <em2@vzavenue.net>
    Hi Mike, Nice post, thanks. Honestly, the worst possible thing that can happen when you post a question on a forum is that no one finds it interesting enough to respond. While at one point I was a bit surprised by the seemingly negative tone of some of the responses, I genuinely appreciate that so many people shared an opinion. I'd love to see some AirCampers. On the Corvair website there was mention of a "Corvair Wings and Wheels fly-in at Alliance, Ohio" on June 8th, 9th, and 10th. Not close, but doable for me. Is this something that some of you might attend? Last, I really love some features of this forum like the down-loadable archives. But I'm curious what causes the divergence of threads? Many times when I see Mike Cuy respond for example, his response is a new thread. I'm using the web forum at http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=7 not email. Perhaps if people are using email and give their reply a new subject it creates a new thread? This question spawned about 10 threads which made it a little tough to follow. Best Regards, Gene Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103621#103621


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:10:52 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil"
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    I'll say AMEN to that. Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Eldredge Sent: March 28, 2007 7:19 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil" There you have it. I too work with a lot of LDS, (about 30,000 of them :-) BYU is a private LDS university). Interestingly, about 5 years ago I got a call from a fellow piet builder, and lister who joined the LDS church and wanted to let me know that it was partly due to the friendliness of this list that influenced his interest in learning more about it. For those of you who are wondering what this has to do with Pietenpols, here is a little history: I started building my piet while serving as an LDS bishop, and started this list on a BYU listserve in 1995. Although I'm just a participant of the list now, as the moderator in the early days, I stressed good relations, no swearing, and no flaming. I unsubscribed any violators so the piet list would remain user friendly, and clean. I am very pleased that these qualities have endured, and the reputation of the list is still a good one. Over the years I have enjoyed meeting many members of the list at Brodhead, and visiting virtually with many others. May the online piet community continue timeless, like the Pietenpol Aircamper itself has for so many decades... (now thanks to Matt Dralle's work) Best regards to all, Steve E. PS, For the record, I thought it was a witty quip.


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:13:42 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    Really what we are supposed to do is delete all the other stuff and just add our comment or direction.It also saves banwidth.Like what I am doing here ,I will delete all below,it will make it easier to follow.


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:19:57 AM PST US
    Subject: new subject lines
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Gene-- I agree (and that is why I practice) and do change the subject line to match more of what I'm posting but many of us don't do that which reduces the effectiveness of the list somewhat. Some have encouraged us as a group to update or change the subject line but lots of times it doesn't get done and you can drag the same dead horse subject line along with some wonderful new bodies of text with great info that isn't reflected in the subject line. By the way, this list is quite friendly and enjoyable and the only other list I am on is just the same but it is an all wood airplane group too. I suspect (from those who are on those other lists telling me) that there is a spoiled brat, prima donna attitude from some of the more lofty and pricey homebuilt list$. I'd have a hard time fitting in with people like that. Mike C.


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:16:04 AM PST US
    From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology
    Well, "BikeMike", I propose that you add a fourth category... the "Type D" person. I'm one of those. Type D people take the work that a Type A, B, or C builder has done and then go fly it! Call it "cutting in line", "taking a shortcut to success", or "cheating" ;o) I'll tell you what though- building these airplanes is what keeps my life fun and interesting, and flying them is like actually going to heaven instead of just dreaming about it. Very, very rewarding. I like to tweak this and that, customize a few things, think about improvements and mods, and that's part of the educational process of experimental aircraft. And perhaps to put all of this aluminum wing and alternative engine stuff in perspective (but not to throw me out of my comfortable Type D world of building on someone else's success), I would remind folks that "a life lived without risks is not worth living". That may end up being my epitaph, but I'll have a smile on my face when I go down. Low 'n' slow forever! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Live Search Maps find all the local information you need, right when you need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag2&FORM=MGAC01


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:37:38 AM PST US
    Subject: D type
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    D type; that's me as well and I don't mind saying it at all. My only regret is that the original builder will never see the Piet I have fly, since he has gone from the planet. However the man I bought it from, the second builder can still see it fly if he ever comes down to the field when I go up. Those guys made a beautiful plane as far as I'm concerned and it was a real pleasure to finish it and fly it although since I'm not a builder, there were times when I was ready to kill something if it came near. I did have help and those guys are master craftsmen as well.Me,I'm just a kind of hack em slap em type of guy when it comes to building anything. I do great in the woods with a chain saw if you catch my drift. I'll cut you a road in no time but don't ask me to do the finesse stuff. I loose patience very quickly. I fit the pattern of a Geminii to a tea. Can pick up any project and loose interest just as fast. I must admit though I have kept interest on the Piet and my wife longer than most figured I would. Type D people take the work that a Type A, B, or C builder has done and then go fly it! Call it "cutting in line", "taking a shortcut to success", or "cheating" ;o) Do not archive


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:12:41 AM PST US
    From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass@hotmail.com>
    Subject: New Airfoil news?
    Hi So............ do any of you B, C, ..........D types have any news on the "new airfoil". Thanks and Best regards Steve in Maine _________________________________________________________________ Live Search Maps find all the local information you need, right when you need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag2&FORM=MGAC01


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:51:58 AM PST US
    From: "gbowen@ptialaska.net" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
    Subject: How a Magneto works : e-gap
    Not sure if I can give a good tech explanation why but.........the mag points really don't completely close, like old distributors on cars. Old timer AP's used to use a piece of cigarette film, about 0.001", to set the points where they are almost closed, and then set the open gap using a normal point gapping set of blades. You can almost eyeball the "closed" gap. If you allow the points to come all the way closed, the mag won't have a chance to build enough spark. Experimental aircraft--- you gotta love it as a learning experience. Gordon Original Message: ----------------- From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gap In a message dated 3/27/2007 4:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, jimsury@consolidated.net writes: Chuck Are you talking about a T-150 tool for checking the e-gap? I've been looking to purchase one of them tools and was not able to find out who sells them. Checked with Aircraft Spruce and they wanted to sell me the electronic tool for setting the timing. Would appreciate if you have an address of the supplier. I don't think the e-gap setting is gonna imporve the static rpm. I have one mag that I broke the case on and had to replace it. So now I need to set the e-gap. What is happening to me is that the mag is not up to full change when it fires. On mag check the engine runs rough on that mag. Not knowing how to set it I just let the points open just as soon as they could which isn't right. Thanks Jim Sury Jim, Yes, the T-150 tool is the one I am talking about. My curiosity was how many other folks actually set the e-gap. I have a need for the tool, because after about 300 hrs of service, I removed the points in the Left mag, to have a close look at if there was any burning on the contacts...there was none. Here's how a magneto works: A strong magnet mounted on the shaft, spins within a two part coil, that has windings that are electrically connected on one leg of the circuit, via the points. As the magnet swaps ends within the two part coil, a current races back and forth in a millisecond, between these two windings. The faster it spins, the higher the current. The purpose of the points is to interrupt this current flow when it is at it's peak...which is called the 'e-gap'. The e stands for 'energy'. You DO NOT adjust the points to a specific gap, you DO adjust the points to crack open at the very instant when this current is at it's peak. It is a very narrow margin, and if it is more than 5 off, it will have a great impact on how much current and voltage goes to the plugs. When the points crack open, the current will flow to the path of least resistance, which is through the distributor and wires, to the spark plugs. The purpose of the Impulse Coupling is two fold: 1) it catches on a cog, and collects Spring energy and when it releases it the timing is retarded for easier engine start ; 2) it spins the magnet at a much higher rate. Once the engine is running, centrifugal force acts upon two spring loaded weights, which does not allow the cogs to catch. When you shut down the engine, as it slows down to below about 100 RPM (maybe 200 rpm) or so, you hear the cogs catching, and spinning the magnet at the faster rate. Now...All I need is a T-150 tool Chuck G. NX770CG ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:12:20 AM PST US
    From: "Jim Sury" <jimsury@consolidated.net>
    Subject: Re: How a Magneto works : e-gap
    Chuck Thanks for the explanation Chuck. I knew that but was not able to put it into words that made any sense. Got that Mike Cuy. The T-118 pins are used to lock the mag into position when you install the mag to the engine. You are suppose to be able to put the crank at the 18 deg btdc or where ever you want it to fire and just drop the mag in and it is suppose to be in time. It gets it close but I still use the sinc. light. Low and Slow Pietenpol GN-1 Jim Sury ----- Original Message ----- From: Rcaprd@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:01 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gap In a message dated 3/27/2007 4:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, jimsury@consolidated.net writes: Chuck Are you talking about a T-150 tool for checking the e-gap? I've been looking to purchase one of them tools and was not able to find out who sells them. Checked with Aircraft Spruce and they wanted to sell me the electronic tool for setting the timing. Would appreciate if you have an address of the supplier. I don't think the e-gap setting is gonna imporve the static rpm. I have one mag that I broke the case on and had to replace it. So now I need to set the e-gap. What is happening to me is that the mag is not up to full change when it fires. On mag check the engine runs rough on that mag. Not knowing how to set it I just let the points open just as soon as they could which isn't right. Thanks Jim Sury Jim, Yes, the T-150 tool is the one I am talking about. My curiosity was how many other folks actually set the e-gap. I have a need for the tool, because after about 300 hrs of service, I removed the points in the Left mag, to have a close look at if there was any burning on the contacts...there was none. Here's how a magneto works: A strong magnet mounted on the shaft, spins within a two part coil, that has windings that are electrically connected on one leg of the circuit, via the points. As the magnet swaps ends within the two part coil, a current races back and forth in a millisecond, between these two windings. The faster it spins, the higher the current. The purpose of the points is to interrupt this current flow when it is at it's peak...which is called the 'e-gap'. The e stands for 'energy'. You DO NOT adjust the points to a specific gap, you DO adjust the points to crack open at the very instant when this current is at it's peak. It is a very narrow margin, and if it is more than 5 =BA off, it will have a great impact on how much current and voltage goes to the plugs. When the points crack open, the current will flow to the path of least resistance, which is through the distributor and wires, to the spark plugs. The purpose of the Impulse Coupling is two fold: 1) it catches on a cog, and collects Spring energy and when it releases it the timing is retarded for easier engine start ; 2) it spins the magnet at a much higher rate. Once the engine is running, centrifugal force acts upon two spring loaded weights, which does not allow the cogs to catch. When you shut down the engine, as it slows down to below about 100 RPM (maybe 200 rpm) or so, you hear the cogs catching, and spinning the magnet at the faster rate. Now...All I need is a T-150 tool Chuck G. NX770CG ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com.


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:28:20 AM PST US
    Subject: How a Magneto works : e-gap
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    This is one of the few places you can go to find out how the old engines used to work. It is soon going to be a lost art. Cars now a days are so complex, hardly anybody can work on them with out the right equipment. I can see experimental aircraft going the same way because of the laws they are bringing in for all that there green stuff they are after. Do not archive


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:37:03 AM PST US
    From: BYD@att.net
    Subject: Aluminum wing structure
    A thought occurred to me, which is unusual so I thought Id write about it to this group. As some may know, Aerolab (in Italy) is going to produce what some would call a version of the Pietenpol named the HiCamp along with what the Fly Baby community thinks of as a two-seat Fly Baby called the LoCamp and a biplane model called the BiCamp all utilizing the same fuselage. When they brought the LoCamp to the US last year, one of the comments they received was that people wanted an aluminum wing structure instead of the wooden one they were offering so they went back and engineered one. Actually two thoughts emerged (even more rare) one, is maybe their wing could be used for those who wanted an aluminum structure for the Pietenpol (check weight) and two, their HiCamp kit might be a good choice for those who want modern materials but the old fashioned look. I might be thought of as somewhat of a purist but let me explain; if someone builds a metal Piet and calls it a metalized Pietenpol, thats fine with me. If someone experiments by putting a turbine engine on a Pietenpol thats cool. A Pietenpol with retractable gear? Call it a Pietenpol RG. But at some point, if enough changes are made, the builder should stop referring to it as a Pietenpol out of respect. For example, the Aerolab HiCamp is based on the Pietenpol and the founders were building a Pietenpol when they realized the design would make a terrific Light Sport Airplane, but they respectfully dont call it a Pietenpol. Im in total agreement with Micheal Cuy about this country and our freedom and those who feel Bernard would still be experimenting, but I think even he would call it something else as the Air Camper evolved with enough changes. Sorry for taking up so much bandwidth, but I thought someone might be interested in the aluminum wing idea. Pietenpolingly, Bill Sayre


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:00:09 AM PST US
    Subject: Aluminum wing structure
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    I respectfully will refer to my plane from now on being a Gregacamp with Pietenpol mods (;-O Do not archive I might be thought of as somewhat of a purist but let me explain; if someone builds a metal Piet and calls it a metalized Pietenpol, that's fine with me. If someone experiments by putting a turbine engine on a Pietenpol that's cool. A Pietenpol with retractable gear? Call it a Pietenpol RG. But at some point, if enough changes are made, the builder should stop referring to it as a Pietenpol out of respect. For example, the Aerolab HiCamp is based on the Pietenpol and the founders were building a Pietenpol when they realized the design would make a terrific Light Sport Airplane, but they respectfully don't call it a Pietenpol.


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:03:10 AM PST US
    Subject: Piet List vs Other Lists
    From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
    Mike I can assure you that the higher dollar airplane lists are not as friendly, on average, as this list. As many of you know, I'm building an RV-10 and follow that list as well as staying on the Pietenpol list. There are notable exceptions, but in general, I find the RV-10 list to contain a lot of whiners, who are NOT interested in building a plane for education, but are mostly interested in how many $$$'s worth of avionics they can stuff in the panel. Many of them complain constantly about the quality of the Van's kit. I can honestly say I am astonished by the extremely high quality of the Van's kit, and really wonder what these people are complaining about. I seriously doubt that most of them could build a Pietenpol. Just a totally different mindset. I stay on the Pietenpol list because I love the airplane, and like the folks on this list. I learned an incredible amount as I built my Pietenpol, and continue to learn things by reading this list. I find the RV-10 list to be about 1/10th as useful as this list, due to the fact that it's a kit and little thinking is required to build it, and the kinds of discussions they have are things like which "glass panel" to put in it, or which autopilot works better. There is little honest open discussion of airplane design like we have (although lately there have been some interesting discussions of flutter). Having sampled both ends of the homebuilding spectrum I can honestly say that I hope the RV-10 is the last kit plane I'll ever build, but not the last airplane. I'd like to either design my own next, or rebuild an antique like a Travellaire or a Waco. Different strokes for different folks. I truly enjoyed building my Pietenpol, with some of the most fun being trying to figure out how to do things and how to make the parts. That type of fun is missing entirely from the RV's. The most important decision I get to make in the building process now is which bucking bar to use. I visited the Van's factory last October and accused them of doing all the fun parts of building an airplane and leaving all the drudgery to the homebuilder. They agreed with me. So for all you Pieters out there who are building your ships, enjoy the process. You will end up with a very fine flying machine, and one that will draw a crowd wherever you go. I flew mine this weekend into a busy airport with jet traffic and as I landed and made the first turnoff after a ground roll of maybe 200', a voice came on the radio saying "I wish I could land my King Air like that!", to which I said "You could, if it could fly at 40 mph". Note that I did change the subject line, and please do not archive Jack Phillips NX899JP Getting excited now for a 10 hour flight to Sun'n'Fun -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:19 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: new subject lines Gene-- I agree (and that is why I practice) and do change the subject line to match more of what I'm posting but many of us don't do that which reduces the effectiveness of the list somewhat. Some have encouraged us as a group to update or change the subject line but lots of times it doesn't get done and you can drag the same dead horse subject line along with some wonderful new bodies of text with great info that isn't reflected in the subject line. By the way, this list is quite friendly and enjoyable and the only other list I am on is just the same but it is an all wood airplane group too. I suspect (from those who are on those other lists telling me) that there is a spoiled brat, prima donna attitude from some of the more lofty and pricey homebuilt list$. I'd have a hard time fitting in with people like that. Mike C. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N


    Message 15


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    Time: 09:30:06 AM PST US
    From: LWATCDR <lwatcdr@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: perfect editorial comment "new airfoil"
    I still want to know how the heck you found time to build a Piet and be a bishop. I don't have the time with just a wife, 3 dogs, and teaching the CT R 5&6 class! On 3/28/07, Steve Eldredge <steve@byu.edu> wrote: > > There you have it. I too work with a lot of LDS, (about 30,000 of them J > BYU is a private LDS university). > > > Interestingly, about 5 years ago I got a call from a fellow piet builder, > and lister who joined the LDS church and wanted to let me know that it wa s > partly due to the friendliness of this list that influenced his interest in > learning more about it. > > > For those of you who are wondering what this has to do with Pietenpols, > here is a little history: > > > I started building my piet while serving as an LDS bishop, and started > this list on a BYU listserve in 1995. Although I'm just a participant o f > the list now, as the moderator in the early days, I stressed good relatio ns, > no swearing, and no flaming. I unsubscribed any violators so the piet li st > would remain user friendly, and clean. I am very pleased that these > qualities have endured, and the reputation of the list is still a good > one. Over the years I have enjoyed meeting many members of the list at > Brodhead, and visiting virtually with many others. May the online piet > community continue timeless, like the Pietenpol Aircamper itself has for so > many decades=85 (now thanks to Matt Dralle's work) > > > Best regards to all, > > > Steve E. > > > PS, For the record, I thought it was a witty quip. > > * > =========== =========== =========== > > * > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 10:04:24 AM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Piet List vs Other Lists
    In a message dated 3/29/2007 11:04:47 AM Central Daylight Time, Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com writes: or rebuild an antique like a Travellaire or a Waco Jack, This is a thought provoking statement. IF a builder so decided he wanted to undertake such a project, to actually build one of the above, where would he or she obtain plans, drawings, spec or whatever. I've often wondered how long it would take to build the ribs for a Waco Taperwing. Mindbogling. It would be a worthy retirement project, if one lived long enough Back in '52 I observed a lonely UPF-7 parked on the far end of Ft Smith airport. I inquired and the FBO said I could buy it for $ 186. Some jerk came in, ground looped, damaged the lower left wing tip. Repairs were $186. The guy had never come back. Just thinking Corky ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


    Message 17


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    Time: 10:35:26 AM PST US
    Subject: Piet List vs Other Lists
    From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
    Corky, I would like to do a project like Jimmy Dean, down in Sanford, NC is doing. Jimmy (who owns a beautiful Ford Model A powered Pietenpol, that sadly needs a new fabric job) is building an essentially new Waco Ten. He bought a junk Waco and is using the old parts to make patterns for all new components. He has finished the fuselage framework, all welded up of brand new 4130 tubing, much better than the mild steel of the original. He is using the original ribs to make a jig to build all new ribs. By the time he is finished about the only original components will be the centerline and the nameplate and serial number, but that is enough in the FAA's eyes to make it a certificated airplane. I'd like to do something similar, as my "retirement project". Then take it and go barnstorming. You can't go barnstorming in a Pietenpol and charge for rides, since it is Experimental. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet List vs Other Lists In a message dated 3/29/2007 11:04:47 AM Central Daylight Time, Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com writes: or rebuild an antique like a Travellaire or a Waco Jack, This is a thought provoking statement. IF a builder so decided he wanted to undertake such a project, to actually build one of the above, where would he or she obtain plans, drawings, spec or whatever. I've often wondered how long it would take to build the ribs for a Waco Taperwing. Mindbogling. It would be a worthy retirement project, if one lived long enough Back in '52 I observed a lonely UPF-7 parked on the far end of Ft Smith airport. I inquired and the FBO said I could buy it for $ 186. Some jerk came in, ground looped, damaged the lower left wing tip. Repairs were $186. The guy had never come back. Just thinking Corky _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N


    Message 18


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    Time: 01:48:01 PM PST US
    Subject: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    This is a good group----look how easy you can tell what a guy is posting about now. Good post, Jack Phillips and part of my thoughts in my previous post were due to the things that you have conveyed to me about the other list you are on---the RV 10 list. Your post about the King Air pilot commenting to you reminded me of the pilots for the owner of the Indianapolis Colts. I landed at Goshen, Indiana on my way back from Brodhead one year and this beautiful jet pulled up nearby to the fuel pumps where I was at. The pilots came out and came right over to my plane about the same time I was walking toward (to me) this gorgeous luxury jet to admire it. We both were wishing we could fly each other's airplanes ! What a brotherhood this flying stuff can make between people who hardly know each other or have never even met. (thanks to e-mail) Mike C.


    Message 19


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    Time: 02:18:20 PM PST US
    From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines
    While on the subject of good "understanding" group......I would like to come clean on my pietenpol (actually, a true confession since the holy day of Easter is upon us). Yes, I too was once a very large person with an anterior distal belly bulge. After years of not seeing my entire foot, I still can't see my entire foot. Therefore, my confession!.... I changed the plans of my Pietenpol making it 29" overall width tapering from the front to rear for my large build! However, I have kept most everything else the same height(with a few exceptions). So there.....I ask for your forgiveness in my deviation from the original plans. Does that make me a true pietenpol builder or am I reduced to a Change-n-Pieter Airplane Cheater?!.... Ken H Fargo, ND "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote: @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } P { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } PRE { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } This is a good group----look how easy you can tell what a guy is posting about now. Good post, Jack Phillips and part of my thoughts in my previous post were due to the things that you have conveyed to me about the other list you are on---the RV 10 list. Your post about the King Air pilot commenting to you reminded me of the pilots for the owner of the Indianapolis Colts. I landed at Goshen, Indiana on my way back from Brodhead one year and this beautiful jet pulled up nearby to the fuel pumps where I was at. The pilots came out and came right over to my plane about the same time I was walking toward (to me) this gorgeous luxury jet to admire it. We both were wishing we could fly each other's airplanes ! What a brotherhood this flying stuff can make between people who hardly know each other or have never even met. (thanks to e-mail) Mike C. --------------------------------- Get your own web address.


    Message 20


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    Time: 03:35:58 PM PST US
    From: "walt evans" <waltdak@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: How a Magneto works : e-gap
    If I can just add to Chucks infro. There's a thing called dwell. Us oldtimers know it from our cars of the 60's. With a dwell meter it set the amount of time that the points were closed, in degrees of the cam shaft. Cause this was the time that the coil was charging. If the dwell wasn't right there wasn't enough power in the coil and the spark weak. The amount of time the points are closed is important and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Then you have to time it so the points open at the correct time to fire. When the points break,,,the large field in the coil collapses and you get the spark to the plug. Walt Evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" ----- Original Message ----- From: Rcaprd@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:01 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gap In a message dated 3/27/2007 4:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, jimsury@consolidated.net writes: Chuck Are you talking about a T-150 tool for checking the e-gap? I've been looking to purchase one of them tools and was not able to find out who sells them. Checked with Aircraft Spruce and they wanted to sell me the electronic tool for setting the timing. Would appreciate if you have an address of the supplier. I don't think the e-gap setting is gonna imporve the static rpm. I have one mag that I broke the case on and had to replace it. So now I need to set the e-gap. What is happening to me is that the mag is not up to full change when it fires. On mag check the engine runs rough on that mag. Not knowing how to set it I just let the points open just as soon as they could which isn't right. Thanks Jim Sury Jim, Yes, the T-150 tool is the one I am talking about. My curiosity was how many other folks actually set the e-gap. I have a need for the tool, because after about 300 hrs of service, I removed the points in the Left mag, to have a close look at if there was any burning on the contacts...there was none. Here's how a magneto works: A strong magnet mounted on the shaft, spins within a two part coil, that has windings that are electrically connected on one leg of the circuit, via the points. As the magnet swaps ends within the two part coil, a current races back and forth in a millisecond, between these two windings. The faster it spins, the higher the current. The purpose of the points is to interrupt this current flow when it is at it's peak...which is called the 'e-gap'. The e stands for 'energy'. You DO NOT adjust the points to a specific gap, you DO adjust the points to crack open at the very instant when this current is at it's peak. It is a very narrow margin, and if it is more than 5 =BA off, it will have a great impact on how much current and voltage goes to the plugs. When the points crack open, the current will flow to the path of least resistance, which is through the distributor and wires, to the spark plugs. The purpose of the Impulse Coupling is two fold: 1) it catches on a cog, and collects Spring energy and when it releases it the timing is retarded for easier engine start ; 2) it spins the magnet at a much higher rate. Once the engine is running, centrifugal force acts upon two spring loaded weights, which does not allow the cogs to catch. When you shut down the engine, as it slows down to below about 100 RPM (maybe 200 rpm) or so, you hear the cogs catching, and spinning the magnet at the faster rate. Now...All I need is a T-150 tool Chuck G. NX770CG ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com.


    Message 21


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    Time: 05:17:14 PM PST US
    From: Wcbowe@aol.com
    Subject: Metal Gear and Wire Wheels For Sale
    I have a complete landing gear, with I think all the fittings to match up to the fuselage, plus a set of motorcycle wire wheels with disk brakes that are of no use to me. They have been sitting in my hangar for a long time now and my airplane is up and flying. I built my Piet up with a Wooden Gear and Jenny Wheels. These have been on a flying airplane, but the airplane went through a flood. I would have no problem sandblasting them up and using them. The only thing I would probably do is reengineer the brake calipers. Let me know if any of you are interested in them. They are located in Sonoma, CA, I can get you pictures in a couple of days. Make me an offer plus shipping or pick up. Email me off the list at _wcbowe@aol.com_ (mailto:wcbowe@aol.com) to keep from clogging up the list. Thanks Walter Bowe NX12988 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


    Message 22


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    Time: 05:33:27 PM PST US
    From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Piet List vs Other Lists
    Corky, The plans for Waco's are available from the Smithsonian Institution. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:03 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet List vs Other Lists In a message dated 3/29/2007 11:04:47 AM Central Daylight Time, Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com writes: or rebuild an antique like a Travellaire or a Waco Jack, This is a thought provoking statement. IF a builder so decided he wanted to undertake such a project, to actually build one of the above, where would he or she obtain plans, drawings, spec or whatever. I've often wondered how long it would take to build the ribs for a Waco Taperwing. Mindbogling. It would be a worthy retirement project, if one lived long enough Back in '52 I observed a lonely UPF-7 parked on the far end of Ft Smith airport. I inquired and the FBO said I could buy it for $ 186. Some jerk came in, ground looped, damaged the lower left wing tip. Repairs were $186. The guy had never come back. Just thinking Corky ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com.


    Message 23


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    Time: 05:42:07 PM PST US
    From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002@yahoo.com>
    Subject: need info.
    Hi there piet builders & flyers, I am going to get shot for asking this I think. I was just wondering if there are any illinois builders on the list that might be able to tell me Ryder Olsen. He has an ad on barnstormers. Sitka long fuse, tail feathers, 26 ribs. Gd work, T88. Pickup Chicago Or? $500 located Burnham, IL USA thanks, Ben Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097


    Message 24


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    Time: 05:42:35 PM PST US
    From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@comcast.net>
    Subject: Looking for Forrest Lovley
    Forrest, I am trying to contact you but your e-mail keeps bouncing. Please contact me at: gcardinal@comcast.net Thanks, Greg Cardinal Minneapolis


    Message 25


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    Time: 07:09:43 PM PST US
    From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology
    Good analysis Mike, I am definitely in the B-C category. Rick On 3/28/07, bike.mike <bike.mike@charter.net> wrote: > > > This runs a little long, so be forewarned. > > > It isn't a diatribe, but an apology. > > > Here in the United States, FARs were long ago written that enabled > licensing > and standardization of "Experimental" Aircraft. The purpose was, and > remains officially, for "education." In the intervening years, the rules > have been used to justify a lot of people building airplanes that achieve > something that they otherwise could not achieve, whether it is > performance, > a replica of an historic airplane, or having any airplane at all. Other > people have used the rules to become educated. (Had the rules existed in > the 1920s, Bernard Pietenpol would have achieved his phenomenal > self-education in aircraft design within them.) > > > Folks on this list come from each of those motivations. > > Some, call them "type A", want to have a replica of a great series of > airplanes, the Pietenpol Aircamper. Type A's consider that only very > accurate replicas can legitimately bear the name of the original. These > aircraft only have materials and engines (Model A, Corvair) and airfoils > that were originally experimented with by BHP himself. The most extreme > examples use casein glue and muslin fabric. > > > Others, type B, want to have an airplane that looks mostly like a famous > original, yet benefits from part of the 80 years of advances in airplanes > that have happened since Bernard started flying off his farm. Type B's > use > somewhat more modern engines, Continental, Franklin, etc. and use epoxy, > Dacron, some even having electrical systems and tail wheels. Mike C, > Corky, > Jack Phillips, and others are prime examples of fine type B airplane > builders who didn't build exact replicas of Bernard's original. I try to > fall somewhere between type A and type B. > > > Still others, type C, are on this list for an education. They want to > learn > what it is like to actually build an airplane, and the Pietenpol looks > like > a nice, simple, place to start. Type C's also want to relive some of what > Bernard did in his experimenting and building days. Bernard certainly > didn' > t build his original airplanes exactly to someone else's plans; he had to > educate himself as he went along. Type C's want to earn some of that > education as well. > > > In 80 years, aviation has advanced far, far, beyond what any of the early > experimenters saw, or probably imagined. Airframe materials have gone > from > bamboo and paper to spruce and muslin to aluminum alloys to composites. > Engines have gone from unreliable motorcycle derivatives with a > power-to-weight ratio of .05 to turbines that achieve ratios of nearly 20 > and have actual TBO's measured in decades. The achievable private > airplane > has evolved from a Piet capable of 80 mph to a turbine powered Lancair > that > can do way over 300. > > > Type C listers want to learn a little of what drove all that > progress. They > want the joy of changing this or that and learning how everything else > changes. They want to know what drove changing biplanes to monoplanes, > and > strutted high wings to cantilevered low wings. Type C members of this > list > actually achieve what was intended with the original Experimental Aircraft > FAR's: education and they get much closer to the essence of Bernard > Pietenpol than any of the rest of us. > > > I hope that those type C's I've chided about building a Piet in order to > build a Piet will accept this as an apology. You are who I would aspire > to > be if I had the courage. > > Mike Hardaway > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"


    Message 26


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    Time: 07:31:23 PM PST US
    From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: New Airfoil news?
    Good point Steve. I have the 612 Riblett airfoil plans and the Bill Rewey info on it. If my genuine wings weren't already hanging from the garage ceiling I would be building a 612 wing. After I finish this thing and get bored maybe I will build a second wing. Rick On 3/29/07, Steve Glass <redsglass@hotmail.com> wrote: > m > > > > Hi > > So............ do any of you B, C, ..........D types have any news on the > "new airfoil". > > > Thanks and > Best regards > Steve in Maine > > _________________________________________________________________ > Live Search Maps ' find all the local information you need, right when you > need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag2&FORM=MGAC01 > > =========== =========== =========== > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"


    Message 27


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    Time: 07:53:37 PM PST US
    From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines
    No Ken, just another type B-C Piet builder like me. Rick Does that make me a true pietenpol builder or am I reduced to a > Change-n-Pieter Airplane Cheater?!.... > > Ken H > Fargo, ND > > *"Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>* wrote: > > > This is a good group----look how easy you can tell what a guy is posting > about now. Good post, Jack Phillips and part of my thoughts > in my previous post were due to the things that you have conveyed to me > about the other list you are on---the RV 10 list. > > Your post about the King Air pilot commenting to you reminded me of the > pilots for the owner of the Indianapolis Colts. I landed at Goshen, > Indiana > on my way back from Brodhead one year and this beautiful jet pulled up > nearby to the fuel pumps where I was at. The pilots came out and came > right over to my plane about the same time I was walking toward (to me) > this gorgeous luxury jet to admire it. We both were wishing we could > fly each other's airplanes ! What a brotherhood this flying stuff can > make between people who hardly know each other or have never even met. > ------------------------------ > Get your own web address.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL> > <http://%0A%3Cpre%3E%3Cb%3E%3Cfont+size=2+color=> > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"


    Message 28


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    Time: 09:27:48 PM PST US
    From: "Catdesigns" <catdesigns@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: New Airfoil news?
    Rick You could always sell me your wings and build some more. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New Airfoil news? Good point Steve. I have the 612 Riblett airfoil plans and the Bill Rewey info on it. If my genuine wings weren't already hanging from the garage ceiling I would be building a 612 wing. After I finish this thing and get bored maybe I will build a second wing. Rick On 3/29/07, Steve Glass <redsglass@hotmail.com> wrote: <redsglass@hotmail.com> Hi So............ do any of you B, C, ..........D types have any news on the "new airfoil". Thanks and Best regards Steve in Maine _________________________________________________________________ Live Search Maps ' find all the local information you need, right when you need it. http://forum================== -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"


    Message 29


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    Time: 09:34:40 PM PST US
    From: "Catdesigns" <catdesigns@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines
    Do I sense a group hug coming on. Chris Feel'n the Love Tracy Sacramento, Ca Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines This is a good group----look how easy you can tell what a guy is posting about now. Good post, Jack Phillips and part of my thoughts in my previous post were due to the things that you have conveyed to me about the other list you are on---the RV 10 list. Your post about the King Air pilot commenting to you reminded me of the pilots for the owner of the Indianapolis Colts. I landed at Goshen, Indiana on my way back from Brodhead one year and this beautiful jet pulled up nearby to the fuel pumps where I was at. The pilots came out and came right over to my plane about the same time I was walking toward (to me) this gorgeous luxury jet to admire it. We both were wishing we could fly each other's airplanes ! What a brotherhood this flying stuff can make between people who hardly know each other or have never even met. (thanks to e-mail) Mike C.




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