---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/31/07: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:12 AM - Re: Santiago: donde estas? (Clif Dawson) 2. 02:03 AM - Re: BOM (Peter W Johnson) 3. 05:33 AM - Aileron Travel (skellytownflyer) 4. 05:53 AM - Re: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines () 5. 06:21 AM - Re: Wing weight (walt evans) 6. 06:47 AM - Re: Wing weight (Tom Bernie) 7. 07:46 AM - Re: Wing weight (Isablcorky@aol.com) 8. 09:23 AM - Re: Santiago: donde estas? (walt evans) 9. 09:24 AM - Re: Sport Aviation Mont. Piet (Rick Holland) 10. 09:33 AM - Re: BOM (Rick Holland) 11. 10:35 AM - Santiago: donde estas? (santiago morete) 12. 02:06 PM - Re: Santiago: donde estas? () 13. 04:15 PM - Sport aviation: Mont. Piet (Dick Navratil) 14. 04:38 PM - Re: BOM (Scott Schreiber) 15. 05:15 PM - Join the EAA? And more progress (Scott Schreiber) 16. 06:29 PM - Re: Join the EAA? And more progress (Ed G.) 17. 07:14 PM - Re: Wing weight (Rick Holland) 18. 08:52 PM - Re: Wing weight (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:35 AM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Santiago: donde estas? This is a little late, sorry about that. Does this Dacron shrink evenly in BOTH directions. Most fabric sold for clothing has been preshrunk in one direction already. Clif Thank you very much guys! I cannot either wait to see the finished product!! In the meantime i'm enjoying the construction. I guess I will cover it with an argentinian made dacron fabric (much less expensive). Saludos Santiago ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:50 AM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: BOM Ryan, Check out HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com. Go to =93Services & Suppliers=94 and click on =93Material Lists=94. These are the lists I used. I included some spare timber. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Michalkiewicz Sent: Saturday, 31 March 2007 12:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: BOM Does any one have an udated bill of materials? I would like to begin ordering wood. Thank you; Ryan Michalkiewicz _____ Don't be flakey. HYPERLINK "http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43909/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/mail"Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and HYPERLINK "http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43909/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/mail"always stay connected to friends. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://www.matronics.c om/ Navigator?Pietenpol-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com -- 30/03/2007 1:15 PM -- 30/03/2007 1:15 PM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:05 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Travel From: "skellytownflyer" Looking at Santiago's beautiful Wing pictures-and seeing the Aileron view makes me wonder how much down aileron travel there is with the originals-has anyone got the measurements on how much travel they have at the trailing edge from neutral to full up or down when rigged? Too wet to fly here in the Texas panhandle this morning,but I can build.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104073#104073 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: You guys are good ! Changing subject lines From: You made my dayHAHAHAHAHA! Do not archive It's alright Harv, That warm feeling is just the Mexican take out from dinner. A little later we can maybe talk them each into lighting one of them little floating candles and putting it in the toilet bowl. Guarantied to take the "fuzzy" out of "Warm and fuzzy" ! Hahahahahahahahahahaha Clif ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:34 AM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight After building my Piet wing with routed 1" spars, I got a chance to see an Aeronca wing not covered. Its amazing how relitively flimsy it looked compared to the Piet. Walt Evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catdesigns" Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 3:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight > > > Rick > > If you look at this picture of the data plate on the Last Original, > http://westcoastpiet.com/images/BHP%20Built/40_data_plate.jpg , you can > see that Mr. Pietenpol lists an empty weight of 641 and gross weight of > 1,282 pounds. I believe this plane has the 3/4-inch spars like yours does. > I take this to mean you can list 1,225 pounds as your gross weight and > still have a safe plane. > > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, Ca > Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Willis" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 3:16 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight > > >> >> >> Rick, >> >> I am still working on weight and balance issues, gross weight, etc., so I >> have a couple of questions. (FYI, I also have solid 3/4" spruce spars >> and plan a 1/16" ply wing LE.) >> >> When you say your fuze, as described, is 340 lbs., and your right and >> left wings weigh 49 lbs. each.-- is your center wing included in the fuze >> weight? >> >> Do you already know the weight of your engine and mount and cowling? >> >> What do you believe the fabric, dope, paint will weigh? >> >> When the Piet is done, what gross weight, payloads and wing loadings do >> you expect to achieve? (I keep running into walls on paper, with my >> weight, fuel and no passenger, but 60# of baggage for Brodhead. The >> first wall is what BP rated his ships [1100# or so?]. The second is the >> FAA and light sport rating [1225#?]. And the third "wall" is actual safe >> flying fully loaded, in either heavy weather or hard landings.) >> >> According to my thinking, BP's original wing loadings are about >> 7.3#/sq.ft. With a little wider center wing and another foot or so of >> wing span as well, as you have done(nothing extreme), you can get 1225# >> GW and still be under 8#/sq.ft. However, with some of these component >> weights, even 1225# overall weight might be problematic. >> >> Thanks for your thoughts. >> >> Tim in central TX >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: Rick Holland >>>Sent: Mar 30, 2007 12:26 PM >>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight >>> >>>Tom >>> >>>My uncovered Piet left and right wing panels weight 49 lbs each (three >>>piece >>>wing). This includes all cables and metal fittings, 1/16' ply leading >>>edge. >>>I used a 3/4" spar, all spruce. The sections are a little longer span >>>than >>>stock for my higher altitude at 163 1/2" including the wingtip. Don't >>>know >>>if that is heavy or light for a Piet wing section. That includes varnish >>>also. >>> >>>In case anyone is interested my entire uncovered long fuselage airframe >>>from >>>the stainless covered firewall back, (no engine, mount, cowling), but >>>including all controls, cables, gear, wheels, 6x8.00 tires, brakes, >>>flight >>>instruments but no engine instruments, tail wheel, empty fuel tank is 340 >>>lbs. >>> >>>Rick >>> >>>On 3/30/07, Tom Bernie wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I just weighed a GN1 wing panel ready to cover, varnished, all >>>> hardware, >>>> cables and aluminum leading edge -- 67lbs -- YIKES! Yes it's Doug Fir >>>> with solid 1" spar. Does anybody have any comparisons Piet or Grega? >>>> >>>> Tom Bernie >>>> Gloucester Mass >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Rick Holland >>> >>>"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:07 AM PST US From: "Tom Bernie" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight Clif, The Grega modification cad drawings don't call for routing (they specify aircraft spruce). Now I wish I had routed or looked into a built up spar -- at least my spars are laminated and strong. Tom -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 2:25 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight Did you rout the spars as per the plans? Clif > > Rick, > > Thanks for the reply. Guess I'm getting what I deserve for using Fir. > At 25% heavier it really shows up in the uncovered wing. > > Thanks, > Tom > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:05 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight Hey Rick, Don't assume a negative attitude on fir. There is fir and then there is fir. Look for some cheap fir and you can sure find. Search around and find a reputable lumber business. Specify what you are looking for and give them a chance to provide. Then and only then fret about the cost. 41CC has fir spars, 3/4 with areas routed which I would NEVER do again. My finished uncovered wings weighed in about 48 pounds each and around 60 totally finished. Her are the lumber specs I asked for: 16 ft length, 2X6 rough, Douglas fir vertical grain, kiln dried w/ straight grains at least 12 to an inch. My lumberman put me on hold for a couple of days while he searched his pile and came back with the question, " would 18 to 24 grains suit you?". You too can find a source as well but don't accept that what is pushed by the price. Maybe you are not as old and ugly as Corky but he has learned that you ain't gonna get anything worth a d--- without paying for it. "Excuse me E" Found the fir to be only a slight few ounces heavier than the spruce I milled for 311CC. IF I were to build another which is totally out of reason I would go with good, light Douglas Fir for the entire Piet. Sorry to have butted in on your conversation Corky Retired Piet builder ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:50 AM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Santiago: donde estas? Yes, in all directions. I believe the rate is 11% shrink. For the width of the wing it can be lose enough to be able to pinch between the fingers at the center of the chord, before shrinking. Some make the mistake of glueing it on too tightly. It need to shrink to "condence" for the strength. See the Poly Fiber manual. Walt Evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 3:09 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Santiago: donde estas? This is a little late, sorry about that. Does this Dacron shrink evenly in BOTH directions. Most fabric sold for clothing has been preshrunk in one direction already. Clif Thank you very much guys! I cannot either wait to see the finished product!! In the meantime i'm enjoying the construction. I guess I will cover it with an argentinian made dacron fabric (much less expensive). Saludos Santiago ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:33 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sport Aviation Mont. Piet Real good idea Dick, post an address for us to send a check. Rick On 3/30/07, Dick Navratil wrote: > > I just finished reading a wonderful article in the new Sport Aviation > about the group of Jr high kids restoring a Piet originally built in 1932. > It was originally built in 9 monthe which is amazing by itself. > These kids have been working like crazy on this project. > As long as everybody here has been feeling so huggy here lately, how about > we all send them a gift from all of the Piet builders around the country. I > would recommend we could gather checks made to their local EAA Chapter 57 > and send them together. > Any comments? > > Dick N. > > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:59 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BOM Ryan This may help a bit, attached the Piet wood kit from ACS that I purchased a couple years ago for $800. Don't know what the price is now. Included all the wood I needed for a long fuselage minus 500 ft. of 1/4 x 1/2 capstrip as mentioned on the list, and sheets of 1/16", 1/8", and 1/4" plywood. Congratulations on your decision to start your project. Rick On 3/30/07, Ryan Michalkiewicz wrote: > > Does any one have an udated bill of materials? I would like to begin > ordering wood. > > Thank you; > > Ryan Michalkiewicz > > ------------------------------ > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobileand > always stay connectedto friends. > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:21 AM PST US From: santiago morete Subject: Pietenpol-List: Santiago: donde estas? Yes Clif, this fabric is for aircraft use, but is made only in 2.7oz (I was looking for 1.7oz) so I will use minimun dope and paint, or maybe latex? to keep the weight down. Will see Saludos Santiago --------------------------------- Pregunt. Respond. Descubr. Todo lo que queras saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:52 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Santiago: donde estas? From: Be very careful when shrinking Dacron;it has been known to actually crush the ribs of the wing. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: March 31, 2007 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Santiago: donde estas? Yes, in all directions. I believe the rate is 11% shrink. For the width of the wing it can be lose enough to be able to pinch between the fingers at the center of the chord, before shrinking. Some make the mistake of glueing it on too tightly. It need to shrink to "condence" for the strength. See the Poly Fiber manual. Walt Evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 3:09 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Santiago: donde estas? This is a little late, sorry about that. Does this Dacron shrink evenly in BOTH directions. Most fabric sold for clothing has been preshrunk in one direction already. Clif Thank you very much guys! I cannot either wait to see the finished product!! In the meantime i'm enjoying the construction. I guess I will cover it with an argentinian made dacron fabric (much less expensive). Saludos Santiago href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat r onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:50 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sport aviation: Mont. Piet I occurred to me although unlikely, some here may not get Sport Aviation, so let me summarize the article. Bernard Pietenpols plans appeared in the Flying and Glider Manual in 1932. Right away, David Comstock of Roundup, Mt. began construction on his Aircamper. He completed the plane in 9 months, when he was 17 years old. This is the first Aircamper ever completed by someone other than Bernard Pietenpol. The plane sat for many years in his old welding shop. Now kids from the local school are restoring the plane to be displayed in a museum in town. The kids doing this are all girls from 12 to 17 years old with the supervision of their teacher. David Comstock left money in his will to restore and build a hangar to display the plane. The teacher has applied for grants for the students as rewards but received none. Several of these girls have been very enthusiastic about learning to fly. I thought it might be very nice of members of this group to do something for the kids who have done this. This might contribute to flying lessons, education or the program the kids are in. I plan to blow off any calls for contributions I receive from politicals, theater groups and such and make this my cause this year. I anyone is interested, make a check to EAA Chapter 57 and send to me Dick Navratil 1415 Skiles Ln. Arden Hills, Mn. 55112 Also, send along a pic of yourself with your plane or project and we can bundle them all together. Dick ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:19 PM PST US From: "Scott Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BOM Just beware that the wing kit does not include leading or trailing edge Spruce. If your going to order the spruce kit you will be paying truck shipping, so you may as well get those pieces in one the same order and save about $100. -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 11:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BOM Ryan This may help a bit, attached the Piet wood kit from ACS that I purchased a couple years ago for $800. Don't know what the price is now. Included all the wood I needed for a long fuselage minus 500 ft. of 1/4 x 1/2 capstrip as mentioned on the list, and sheets of 1/16", 1/8", and 1/4" plywood. Congratulations on your decision to start your project. Rick On 3/30/07, Ryan Michalkiewicz wrote: Does any one have an udated bill of materials? I would like to begin ordering wood. Thank you; Ryan Michalkiewicz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:06 PM PST US From: "Scott Schreiber" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Join the EAA? And more progress I was looking into the EAA, and I suppose it varies on a chapter by chapter basis, but what sort of benefit have piet builders seen from the EAA? What in general could one expect from the EAA? Broad questions but about the best I could think of. I also got a fair ammount done in between allot of other efforts this weekend. The tail fittings got finished and the tail is on. I also got the plane side motor mounts done but got sort of stonewalled on the motor mount itself. Upper mounts http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31a.jpg Lower mounts http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31b.jpg Tail on http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31d.jpg Elevator work http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31e.jpg http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31g.jpg -Scott ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:26 PM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Join the EAA? And more progress EAA is a great organization and helps tremendously to keep our sport/ hobby alive and well. I'm sure all the chapters are different. My particular chapter is mostly about high dollar kit planes in aluminum and composite with glass panels that cost more than my whole Pietenpol. When I mention wood and fabric they look at me like I have three heads or something. So I end up belonging but not attending the meetings very often. You can go to the meetings a few times to check out your local chapter and see where they're at before you join. Ed G. From: Scott Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 9:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Join the EAA? And more progress I was looking into the EAA, and I suppose it varies on a chapter by chapter basis, but what sort of benefit have piet builders seen from the EAA? What in general could one expect from the EAA? Broad questions but about the best I could think of. I also got a fair ammount done in between allot of other efforts this weekend. The tail fittings got finished and the tail is on. I also got the plane side motor mounts done but got sort of stonewalled on the motor mount itself. Upper mounts http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31a.jpg Lower mounts http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31b.jpg Tail on http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31d.jpg Elevator work http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31e.jpg http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietmar31g.jpg -Scott http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:49 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight That's good to know Chris, and it would be nice if my long fuse Corvair Piet comes in at only 641 empty but I know thats impossible since I will have a starter and battery (and three piece wing). Its interesting since the Flyer and Glider Manual article shows 1080 gross using routed 1" spars with 625 empty weight. I imagine with more and more building and test flying experience Bernard upped the gross weight number. Tim - to answer your question, the 340 lb number is for the entire uncovered airframe (wings, tail, gear) with nothing forward of the firewall. According to William Wynne the corvair engine, mount, and prop will be 240 lbs. No idea what a cowling will weight, 10 lbs? Will be using 1.7 fabric and latex paint so hopefully the cover and paint will not add too much more. I am hoping for an empty weight just under 700 lbs. As far as gross weight goes, if Bernard rated his last long fuse corvair at 1282 that is good enough for me. As far as wing loading goes, with my 3 ft. center section my span will be 30 1/2' which makes for a wing area of 152.5 sq ft and at 1282 gross comes to 8.4 lb/sq ft. The Flying and Glider Manual specs (1080 and 140 sq ft) come to 7.7 lb/sq ft. Since I will be flying solo 95% of the time my flying weight with full fuel should be around 1000 lbs which comes to 6.55 lb/sq ft. Rick On 3/31/07, Catdesigns wrote: > > > > > Rick > > If you look at this picture of the data plate on the Last Original, > http://westcoastpiet.com/images/BHP%20Built/40_data_plate.jpg , you can > see > that Mr. Pietenpol lists an empty weight of 641 and gross weight of 1,282 > pounds. I believe this plane has the 3/4-inch spars like yours does. I > take > this to mean you can list 1,225 pounds as your gross weight and still have > a > safe plane. > > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, Ca > Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Willis" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 3:16 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight > > > > > > > > Rick, > > > > I am still working on weight and balance issues, gross weight, etc., so > I > > have a couple of questions. (FYI, I also have solid 3/4" spruce spars > and > > plan a 1/16" ply wing LE.) > > > > When you say your fuze, as described, is 340 lbs., and your right and > left > > wings weigh 49 lbs. each.-- is your center wing included in the fuze > > weight? > > > > Do you already know the weight of your engine and mount and cowling? > > > > What do you believe the fabric, dope, paint will weigh? > > > > When the Piet is done, what gross weight, payloads and wing loadings do > > you expect to achieve? (I keep running into walls on paper, with my > > weight, fuel and no passenger, but 60# of baggage for Brodhead. The > first > > wall is what BP rated his ships [1100# or so?]. The second is the FAA > and > > light sport rating [1225#?]. And the third "wall" is actual safe flying > > fully loaded, in either heavy weather or hard landings.) > > > > According to my thinking, BP's original wing loadings are about > > 7.3#/sq.ft. With a little wider center wing and another foot or so of > > wing span as well, as you have done(nothing extreme), you can get 1225# > GW > > and still be under 8#/sq.ft. However, with some of these component > > weights, even 1225# overall weight might be problematic. > > > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > > > Tim in central TX > > > > -----Original Message----- > >>From: Rick Holland > >>Sent: Mar 30, 2007 12:26 PM > >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight > >> > >>Tom > >> > >>My uncovered Piet left and right wing panels weight 49 lbs each (three > >>piece > >>wing). This includes all cables and metal fittings, 1/16' ply leading > >>edge. > >>I used a 3/4" spar, all spruce. The sections are a little longer span > than > >>stock for my higher altitude at 163 1/2" including the wingtip. Don't > know > >>if that is heavy or light for a Piet wing section. That includes varnish > >>also. > >> > >>In case anyone is interested my entire uncovered long fuselage airframe > >>from > >>the stainless covered firewall back, (no engine, mount, cowling), but > >>including all controls, cables, gear, wheels, 6x8.00 tires, brakes, > flight > >>instruments but no engine instruments, tail wheel, empty fuel tank is > 340 > >>lbs. > >> > >>Rick > >> > >>On 3/30/07, Tom Bernie wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I just weighed a GN1 wing panel ready to cover, varnished, all > hardware, > >>> cables and aluminum leading edge -- 67lbs -- YIKES! Yes it's Doug Fir > >>> with solid 1" spar. Does anybody have any comparisons Piet or Grega? > >>> > >>> Tom Bernie > >>> Gloucester Mass > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>Rick Holland > >> > >>"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:09 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight The original weight limit had nothing to do with the strength of the airframe or the experience level. It had everything to do with the limited hp of the Ford engine. I have, and have provided here on the list a few times, the formula for "minimum safe climb/ hp/gross weight" . The Ford Piet is right on that minimum. The reason for the higher gross in the Last Original is the higher horsepower of the Corvair. We all assume that the G loading is the only factor being considered. After all, it does make sense. Most AC we see are not so extremely power limited so then weight becomes more the issue. That's what "trade off" means, isn't it. Off course this works up to a point. At what weight does the Piet become unsafe, G wise? Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:12 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight That's good to know Chris, and it would be nice if my long fuse Corvair Piet comes in at only 641 empty but I know thats impossible since I will have a starter and battery (and three piece wing). Its interesting since the Flyer and Glider Manual article shows 1080 gross using routed 1" spars with 625 empty weight. I imagine with more and more building and test flying experience Bernard upped the gross weight number. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.