---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/03/07: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:20 AM - Piet video now on DVD (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 2. 06:17 AM - bouncy, bouncy, bouncy (Oscar Zuniga) 3. 06:57 AM - Re: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy (Phillips, Jack) 4. 07:09 AM - Re: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy (Isablcorky@aol.com) 5. 08:14 AM - Re: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy () 6. 10:27 AM - Re: Piet List vs Other Lists (Gene & Tammy) 7. 01:03 PM - Re: Wing Rib Template Problem????? (Don Emch) 8. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: Wing Rib Template Problem????? (Phillips, Jack) 9. 01:21 PM - Re: Piet video now on DVD (Bill Church) 10. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: Wing Rib Template Problem????? (Dave Abramson) 11. 01:45 PM - DVD-----try this web site (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 12. 02:00 PM - Re: DVD-----try this web site (Jim Markle) 13. 02:02 PM - Re: DVD-----try this web site (Grover Summers) 14. 03:08 PM - thoughts on videos (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 15. 03:13 PM - Emailing: Antique fly-in Brodhead 007 (Roman Bukolt) 16. 05:16 PM - Re: Sport Aviation Mont. Piet (Tim Verthein) 17. 05:26 PM - Re Tail bracing (Graham and Robyn) 18. 06:01 PM - Re: Re Tail bracing (Graham Hansen) 19. 06:55 PM - Re: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy (Graham Hansen) 20. 07:01 PM - another view (Roman Bukolt) 21. 08:12 PM - Re: another view (Catdesigns) 22. 08:21 PM - Re: Wing weight (Rcaprd@aol.com) 23. 08:23 PM - Re: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy (Rcaprd@aol.com) 24. 08:34 PM - Re: thoughts on videos (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:27 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet video now on DVD From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Group, I normally don't advertise my Piet tape here but I finally got somewhat caught up with technology and now offer my 2.5 hour rambling dissertation on the building and flying of my plane on DVD. Info available here: http://users.aol.com/bpabpabpa/cuyvideo.html Mike C. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:12 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy Roman wrote- >Bill told me to keep only 15 lbs. pressure in my 6 x 6.00 tires. >Sorta like a "dead" tennis ball or basket ball I suppose. Well now, see, there's another thing to play with. I run 26-28 psi in the tires on 41CC. I believe that came from different recommendations on this list and a bunch of posts from other Pieters indicated that they run their tires anywhere from 18 to 22 to 26, to Mike Cuy's elaborate technique of "ant's-eye view of inflating tires until the tread just touches the pavement". Of course it would make sense that lower pressure would provide less bounce but I think I'll keep my tire pressure in the mid-20s. Interesting item I found while searching the archives for tire pressure. Dick stated that he holds 1100 RPM down through the flare to minimize bouce. Aha! Confirmation of what you said, Roman. Now I need to get back out there and try holding a little power through the flare instead of going to idle. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:42 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy From: "Phillips, Jack" The question is, which type of bounce are you getting? You can get a small bounce from the tires if you drop the plane in from a few inches off the pavement, but the bounce will only be a few inches (somewhat less than the height from which the plane dropped). But you can get a pretty impressive "bounce" from aerodynamics if you touch main wheels first. If the plane is setlling fast and you touch main wheels first, the tail will continue to settle, increasing the angle of attack of the wing and generating enough extra lift to lift the plane off the ground as much as several feet, at which point you run out of airspeed and stall, dropping it in from a siginificant height. With my old J-3 Cub many years ago, I once made a landing where I slipped it over a set of powerlines but didn't pull out of the slip soon enough. I basically flew the plane into the ground hard enough that the bungees extended all the way to the stops (I had grass stains on the belly of the plane). Then as the tail slammed down increasing the angle of attack and starting the bounce, all that energy stored in the bungees launched the plane up to about 10 feet off the ground, where I sat fat dumb and happy with no airspeed. I slammed the throttle wide open and poined the nose down enough to get the plane flying again and managed to salvage the landing, but it was close. Like Roman, I find it easiest to land the Piet with a little power on until the wheels are rolling. Otherwise you have to time the flare very carefully. I spent some time in the pattern with mine yesterday, practicing landings. I can make a good landing without power about one out of every three tries. With power I can generally make a pretty nice landing. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy Roman wrote- >Bill told me to keep only 15 lbs. pressure in my 6 x 6.00 tires. >Sorta like a "dead" tennis ball or basket ball I suppose. Well now, see, there's another thing to play with. I run 26-28 psi in the tires on 41CC. I believe that came from different recommendations on this list and a bunch of posts from other Pieters indicated that they run their tires anywhere from 18 to 22 to 26, to Mike Cuy's elaborate technique of "ant's-eye view of inflating tires until the tread just touches the pavement". Of course it would make sense that lower pressure would provide less bounce but I think I'll keep my tire pressure in the mid-20s. Interesting item I found while searching the archives for tire pressure. Dick stated that he holds 1100 RPM down through the flare to minimize bouce. Aha! Confirmation of what you said, Roman. Now I need to get back out there and try holding a little power through the flare instead of going to idle. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglin eapril07 _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:44 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy Here I go butting in on a subject of which I know very little about. My test pilot, Edwin Johnson, insisted that I develop my wheel landing technique as soon as possible. He was checking me out on 41CC after a 30 year perod of no tailwheel flying. It worked and helped me get back in the proper timing for a landing. Just a suggestion. Corky ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:47 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy From: According to the old guys I fly with; they tell me to land on mains all the time. Do not attempt a 3 point unless you are absolutely sure of what you are doing and know the aircraft inside and out and all its quirks. They tell me to keep power on enough to keep her level in the flair out. Just wait for the air to bleed away and the speed to diminish enough to let her down on those mains. Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky@aol.com Sent: April 3, 2007 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy Here I go butting in on a subject of which I know very little about. My test pilot, Edwin Johnson, insisted that I develop my wheel landing technique as soon as possible. He was checking me out on 41CC after a 30 year perod of no tailwheel flying. It worked and helped me get back in the proper timing for a landing. Just a suggestion. Corky ________________________________ See what's free at AOL.com . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:09 AM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet List vs Other Lists Jack, Still waiting for the report on your new prop. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:02 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet List vs Other Lists Mike I can assure you that the higher dollar airplane lists are not as friendly, on average, as this list. As many of you know, I'm building an RV-10 and follow that list as well as staying on the Pietenpol list. There are notable exceptions, but in general, I find the RV-10 list to contain a lot of whiners, who are NOT interested in building a plane for education, but are mostly interested in how many $$$'s worth of avionics they can stuff in the panel. Many of them complain constantly about the quality of the Van's kit. I can honestly say I am astonished by the extremely high quality of the Van's kit, and really wonder what these people are complaining about. I seriously doubt that most of them could build a Pietenpol. Just a totally different mindset. I stay on the Pietenpol list because I love the airplane, and like the folks on this list. I learned an incredible amount as I built my Pietenpol, and continue to learn things by reading this list. I find the RV-10 list to be about 1/10th as useful as this list, due to the fact that it's a kit and little thinking is required to build it, and the kinds of discussions they have are things like which "glass panel" to put in it, or which autopilot works better. There is little honest open discussion of airplane design like we have (although lately there have been some interesting discussions of flutter). Having sampled both ends of the homebuilding spectrum I can honestly say that I hope the RV-10 is the last kit plane I'll ever build, but not the last airplane. I'd like to either design my own next, or rebuild an antique like a Travellaire or a Waco. Different strokes for different folks. I truly enjoyed building my Pietenpol, with some of the most fun being trying to figure out how to do things and how to make the parts. That type of fun is missing entirely from the RV's. The most important decision I get to make in the building process now is which bucking bar to use. I visited the Van's factory last October and accused them of doing all the fun parts of building an airplane and leaving all the drudgery to the homebuilder. They agreed with me. So for all you Pieters out there who are building your ships, enjoy the process. You will end up with a very fine flying machine, and one that will draw a crowd wherever you go. I flew mine this weekend into a busy airport with jet traffic and as I landed and made the first turnoff after a ground roll of maybe 200', a voice came on the radio saying "I wish I could land my King Air like that!", to which I said "You could, if it could fly at 40 mph". Note that I did change the subject line, and please do not archive Jack Phillips NX899JP Getting excited now for a 10 hour flight to Sun'n'Fun -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:19 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: new subject lines Gene-- I agree (and that is why I practice) and do change the subject line to match more of what I'm posting but many of us don't do that which reduces the effectiveness of the list somewhat. Some have encouraged us as a group to update or change the subject line but lots of times it doesn't get done and you can drag the same dead horse subject line along with some wonderful new bodies of text with great info that isn't reflected in the subject line. By the way, this list is quite friendly and enjoyable and the only other list I am on is just the same but it is an all wood airplane group too. I suspect (from those who are on those other lists telling me) that there is a spoiled brat, prima donna attitude from some of the more lofty and pricey homebuilt list$. I'd have a hard time fitting in with people like that. Mike C. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:17 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Rib Template Problem????? From: "Don Emch" Hi guys, I used the photocopy and I realize they are slightly different, but it flies great. I think as long as they are all the same it doesn't matter. I really don't think there is enough difference to change the flying qualities. If you want to plot out the coordinates, fine, have fun! If you want to just stick the copy down and build a jig around it, fine, have fun! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104736#104736 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:17 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Rib Template Problem????? From: "Phillips, Jack" I did the same, Don. Just used the photocopy rib template. I've flown mine and Mike Cuy's Pietenpols and as near as I can tell, they fly the same. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Emch Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:03 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Rib Template Problem????? Hi guys, I used the photocopy and I realize they are slightly different, but it flies great. I think as long as they are all the same it doesn't matter. I really don't think there is enough difference to change the flying qualities. If you want to plot out the coordinates, fine, have fun! If you want to just stick the copy down and build a jig around it, fine, have fun! Don Emch NX899DE _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:05 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet video now on DVD From: "Bill Church" Mike, Since the site doesn't specifically mention the DVD, I'll ask the obvious question: Is the DVD the same price as the VHS tape ($20 + $4)? Bill C. (gonna have to order a DVD because the old VHS is gettin' worn out) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:32 PM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Rib Template Problem????? That's what I like to hear! Did everyone see the COOL Piet on e-bay? Cheers, Dave Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don Emch Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 1:03 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Rib Template Problem????? Hi guys, I used the photocopy and I realize they are slightly different, but it flies great. I think as long as they are all the same it doesn't matter. I really don't think there is enough difference to change the flying qualities. If you want to plot out the coordinates, fine, have fun! If you want to just stick the copy down and build a jig around it, fine, have fun! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104736#104736 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:27 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: DVD-----try this web site From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Bill C. GOOD question and yes, same price for DVD as the VHS. Here is a better web link that sez DVD: http://www.grantmaclaren.com/cuyvideo/ I'm only about 5 years behind the technology curve in entertainment and educational media formats. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:24 PM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: DVD-----try this web site Piet video now on DVDI just may be caught up with the technology curve...I have it (and Chuck's DVD) on both DVD AND iPod...hehehehehe...(have had for some time!) But I WON'T make copies for ANYONE!!! nada! no way! ain't gonna DO IT! :-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:44 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: DVD-----try this web site Bill C. GOOD question and yes, same price for DVD as the VHS. Here is a better web link that sez DVD: http://www.grantmaclaren.com/cuyvideo/ I'm only about 5 years behind the technology curve in entertainment and educational media formats. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:23 PM PST US From: Grover Summers Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: DVD-----try this web site Guys, I bought Mike's VHS years ago and have viewed it many times. I just placed an order for the DVD because it's more convenient for me than VHS. If you're in doubt about buying the tape/DVD, put your fears to rest and buy it. It's well worth it. Grover "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" wrote: Bill C. GOOD question and yes, same price for DVD as the VHS. Here is a better web link that sez DVD: http://www.grantmaclaren.com/cuyvideo/ I'm only about 5 years behind the technology curve in entertainment and educational media formats. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:40 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: thoughts on videos From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" While we are talking documentaries let me remind you all of the good DVD that Jim Markle mentioned that Captain Smoke'em Chuck Gantzer has available too. I'm not into selling stuff or trying to make a fast buck (I did that selling shoes in high school:) but if it can help builders or is something that Piet enthusiast's can enjoy-- it does help to fill the fuel tank from time to time. One added bonus that Chuck and I offer is that our productions are uninterrupted by rude commercial interruptions. Your wife may interrupt your viewing or your kids but at least you don't have to see a commercial for another drug that "may have these 400 side effects." Mike C. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:06 PM PST US From: "Roman Bukolt" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Emailing: Antique fly-in Brodhead 007 OK you Pietenpol purists. Those of you who haven't been to Brodhead last summer for the Midwest Antique Airplane Fly-in. What airfoil do these two planes have? A. Both are Pietenpol airfoils B one has a Riblett 30U-612 airfoil C both have Riblett airfoils Roman Bukolt The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Antique fly-in Brodhead 007 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:09 PM PST US From: Tim Verthein Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sport Aviation Mont. Piet As th' wife says "it's amazing how small the world gets". She talked to her Mom, who has lived in Roundup, Montana for years. turns out my wife's Uncle Frank Rom used to hang out with David Comstock along with guys names Dick Staunton and Florian Baldwin, along with John Liggett who stored the plane for quite some time. these guys were apparently all buddies who hung around together and worked on that plane together. She had a few second hand stories to tell. She spoke with someone who has seen the restoration project and says the kids and the work they are doing is simply amazing. the spot for the hanger where the plane will be displayed in Roundup is just across the road from where my In-laws go to church, and the property is all flagged and ready to start building. She had also said that she was told that the wings were longer than the plans specified. Don't know about that....second/third hand stories, but that's what she said. I'm fascinated. This is exciting to me, as it has given my wife a bit more of the Pietenpol fever (she thinks I'm quite crazy, with a CH701 under construction already). So, now there's another reason to visit Roundup this summer, besides just seeing the relatives. Oh, and we're coming to Broadhead too..staying at the Gasthaus Motel 15 miles away in Monroe, so hope to view lots of Piets in real life and meet a lot of you! Tim in Bovey == You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor! == Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:39 PM PST US From: "Graham and Robyn" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail bracing Hi all, does any one have ideas on using Piano wire for tail braces in lieu of 3/32 cable? I had planned on the cable, it would have to be more fatigue resistant, & easier to put around a thimble. Any history of the wire giving trouble in the long term? Thanks Graham Hewitt Piet builder from Perth West OZ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:57 PM PST US From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail bracing Graham, I used 3/32" 7 x 19 stainless steel cable for my tail bracing and it has been entirely satisfactory for 765 hours of flying. The possibility for fatigue failure of a solid wire over time was a factor in choosing cable. Availability of the SS cable "at the right price" was another. Cheers, Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN in Alberta, Canada) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:15 PM PST US From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy I have, over the years, flown four different Pietenpols for a total of perhaps 800 hours. Most of this was on wheels using grass runways and some was on skis. Each of these aircraft (including my own) displayed very similar characteristics and was easy to fly in relatively calm air, but was "squirrelly" in wind and turbulence. Turbulence isn't a real problem until one tries to land. The ground then becomes a moving target. Under these conditions I always do a wheel landing because I can maintain full control before, during and after touchdown. And I generally find wheel landings best on paved runways, too. It is not easy to do consistently good 3-point landings, without a bounce or a skip--even on grass. There is a tendency to overcontrol during the flare phase of a power-off (engine idling) approach. When I catch myself doing this, I make a conscious effort to gently begin the flare a bit sooner and then make small corrections as required. Avoid making coarse control inputs as much as possible, although they are necessary in gusty conditions where finesse is out of the question anyway. The Pietenpol a good trainer. The DeHavilland Gypsy Moth and Tiger Moth are less sensitive and easier to land than my Pietenpol. Both are noted to be good trainers, but in my experience the Pietenpol requires a more delicate touch. The usual cure for a lot of landing problems is to use a bit (not much!) of power on approach and ease it off slowly during the hold-off phase. And if you mis-judge and bounce, don't get frustrated, Even the birds miss sometimes! Graham Hansen Pietenpol CF-AUN ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:06 PM PST US From: "Roman Bukolt" Subject: Pietenpol-List: another view For you expertswith an eagle eye, here's another view of the two planes. Riblett or Pietenpol. (airfoils that is)? do not archive The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Antique fly-in Brodhead 005 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:20 PM PST US From: "Catdesigns" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another view Roman, it's obviously the one on the _______. It is amazing that the ________ plane's wing looks just like a Pietenpol airfoil. I'm very interested in hearing how well this airfoil works so get experimenting. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Roman Bukolt To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 6:01 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: another view For you expertswith an eagle eye, here's another view of the two planes. Riblett or Pietenpol. (airfoils that is)? do not archive The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Antique fly-in Brodhead 005 Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may Check ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:13 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing weight The morning we trailered the wing from my house to the hanger was drissling, and as soon as we got to the airport, we put it on a bathroom scale. The one piece wing (with 9.7 gal. fiberglass fuel tank and 3/4" Douglas Fir Spars) was complete, including paint and rigging, ready to install. It weighed 110 lbs. We mounted it on the waiting fuselage, and I imediately climbed in and started making airplane noise !! Chuck G. NX770CG ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:59 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bouncy, bouncy, bouncy In a message dated 4/2/2007 6:25:58 PM Central Daylight Time, conceptmodels@tds.net writes: By the way, I don't know how much it would influence the landing, but Bill told me to keep only 15 lbs. pressure in my 6 x 6.00 tires. That's the pressure I use in my 8.00 X 6 tires, too. Chuck G. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:00 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: thoughts on videos Hey Mikee !! Great to see you got all caught up with technology, and put your video on DVD !! A well built Pietenpol like yours, will easily out live those old VHS Tapes. Chuck G. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.