---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/01/07: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:04 AM - carb ice, triangle installed ? (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 06:57 AM - Re: carb ice, triangle installed ? (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 3. 06:59 AM - wood gear question (Dan Loegering) 4. 07:16 AM - Re: Pietenpol Vs. Flybaby cockpit (Rick Holland) 5. 07:33 AM - Re: wood gear question (Phillips, Jack) 6. 07:56 AM - Wood gear (HelsperSew@aol.com) 7. 08:27 AM - Douglas Fir longerons (Steve Singleton) 8. 12:39 PM - Re: Douglas Fir longerons () 9. 01:32 PM - Douglas Fir longerons (Oscar Zuniga) 10. 03:02 PM - Re: wood gear question (Dale Johnson) 11. 03:02 PM - Re: Douglas Fir longerons (VAHOWDY@aol.com) 12. 03:13 PM - perfect landings (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 13. 04:50 PM - Re: Douglas Fir longerons () 14. 07:07 PM - Tail attachment (santiago morete) 15. 07:09 PM - Finger faster than brain (santiago morete) 16. 07:10 PM - Re: Carb Ice (kmordecai001@comcast.net) 17. 07:25 PM - Re: wood gear question (Pietsrneat@aol.com) 18. 07:35 PM - Re: Douglas Fir longerons (Dick Navratil) 19. 07:39 PM - Re: Tail attachment (Rick Holland) 20. 08:25 PM - Re: Finger faster than brain (DJ Vegh) 21. 09:19 PM - Re: wood gear question (Catdesigns) 22. 09:28 PM - Re: Douglas Fir longerons (Steve Singleton) 23. 10:32 PM - Re: Pietenpol Vs. Flybaby cockpit (Clif Dawson) 24. 10:35 PM - Re: wood gear question (Clif Dawson) 25. 11:31 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 26. 11:36 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:54 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: carb ice, triangle installed ? Mikeee wrote- >Inside the muff where your front and rear pipes Y together >there should be a steel triangle that fits in that Y Got it. I had my welder add a tab to each down-pipe and then bolted a triangular piece of flat steel plate onto the tabs to force the incoming air to flow around the plate and pipes instead of just shooting past them into the carb air box. It works great. I can open up the heat muff and take a photo if anyone cares to see it (should have done that prior to reinstalling the assembly anyway) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:26 AM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb ice, triangle installed ? Oscar, Now........ you know better then to lead a horse to water!.....Of course we can use a photo! A picture is worth a thousand words.....tee-hee-hee Ken H Fargo, ND Oscar Zuniga wrote: Mikeee wrote- >Inside the muff where your front and rear pipes Y together >there should be a steel triangle that fits in that Y Got it. I had my welder add a tab to each down-pipe and then bolted a triangular piece of flat steel plate onto the tabs to force the incoming air to flow around the plate and pipes instead of just shooting past them into the carb air box. It works great. I can open up the heat muff and take a photo if anyone cares to see it (should have done that prior to reinstalling the assembly anyway) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:27 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood gear question From: "Dan Loegering" Getting close to cutting the wood for the gear and just have a couple of questions. First - it is spruce that is used for the legs correct? And just ash for the bottom block... Second - what is the purpose for angling the bottom ash blocks back so they intersect at the tail wheel (if you were to extend them all the way back...)? I understand the reasoning for angling them for clearance when the plane is in 3-point attitude, but would there be any reason to not keep the ash block in line with the wheels (not angled inward towards the tail wheel)? It would make the bottom cuts much easier to make without the inward cant. Third - do you glue the bottom joints from the legs to the ash, or do you rely on the metal side plates to attach these pieces? Thanks! Dan Loegering Fargo, ND ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:42 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Vs. Flybaby cockpit Just happen to have the FlyBaby plans in front of me Ryan. Outside width is 24 1/4". The longerons are 3/4x3/4" so the inside width is actually 1/4 to 1/2" wider than the Piet. Was fairly simple making mine 2" wider than plans, just cost a little weight and an extra sheet of 1/8" ply. Rick On 4/30/07, Ryan Michalkiewicz wrote: > > Has anyone ever sat in a Bowers Flybaby cockpit and how does it compare in > size to the Piet? I remember it being a little tight. I'd hate to add the > extra weight just for 2". > > Thanks, > > -Ryan > > ------------------------------ > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wood gear question From: "Phillips, Jack" Hi Dan, I don't know what others have done, but I can answer for what I did on my landing gear. The plans call for spruce, and there is no need to use anything heavier. I made mine of 1/4" planks of spruce laminated together, partly for strength and partly becasue I wanted to run a channel down the middle of the strut to hide my hydraulic brake lines (a plane of this type didn't have haydraulic lines hanging out everywhere in 1929). I found a side benefit of having the glue lines was it made it much easier to sand the struts to a uniform airfoil shape - the glue lines were straight when the surface was uniform. The "V-Blocks" are ash, because they take a pounding from the axle and ash absorbs shock better than any other wood (which is why they make baseball bats out of it). The purpose for angling the blocks toward the tail will become apparent if you try to make them parallel. I didn't realize they needed to be angled and went through several board feet of wood (fortunately, it was pine - I recommend making practice pieces first before committing to expensive spruce). I could never get the fit right at both the fuselage and the V-blocks. Finally I made a jig with strings representing the struts and realized I need to angle the V-blocks to make everything line up. It is just a coincidence that the angle required is very close to pointing toward the tailwheel. You can probably glue the V-blocks to the struts. I chose not to, to make it easier to thread my brake lines through. The steel plates are strong enough and glue is not necessary. The landing gear geometry is the single most difficult part of building this airplane, if you are using the straight axle gear. I don't know if the split type gear is any easier, but I know that once you get through this part, the rest will be easy. Good luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Loegering Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood gear question --> Getting close to cutting the wood for the gear and just have a couple of questions. First - it is spruce that is used for the legs correct? And just ash for the bottom block... Second - what is the purpose for angling the bottom ash blocks back so they intersect at the tail wheel (if you were to extend them all the way back...)? I understand the reasoning for angling them for clearance when the plane is in 3-point attitude, but would there be any reason to not keep the ash block in line with the wheels (not angled inward towards the tail wheel)? It would make the bottom cuts much easier to make without the inward cant. Third - do you glue the bottom joints from the legs to the ash, or do you rely on the metal side plates to attach these pieces? Thanks! Dan Loegering Fargo, ND _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:15 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood gear Dan, I don't think it is physically possible to make those ash blocks in line with the line-of-flight. If it is I sure could not figure it out. The reason is that the fuselage starts to taper back before you get to the back leg attach point. I suppose it really could be done, but the result would be misalignment of the back leg with the ash block. In other words the back leg would end up sitting "crooked" on top of the ash block. It would take a better man than I to figure it out if it can be done. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:38 AM PST US From: "Steve Singleton" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fir longerons Hi everyone- I bought a 16ft 2x6 douglas fir that i thought might work for longerons but it only has 5 to 6 growth rings pr in. It's a very nice looking board but am wondering if the 5-6 rings an in. is enough. Thanks for the help. Steve Singleton ----- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:24 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fir longerons I believe 8 rings/inch is the minimum standard, sorry. Ben > > From: "Steve Singleton" > Date: 2007/05/01 Tue AM 10:25:16 EST > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fir longerons > > Hi everyone- I bought a 16ft 2x6 douglas fir that i thought might work for longerons but it only has 5 to 6 growth rings pr in. It's a very nice looking board but am wondering if the 5-6 rings an in. is enough. Thanks for the help. Steve Singleton > ----- > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:00 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fir longerons Although the ring count doesn't quite come up to spec, I would not reject the idea out of hand. The longerons on a Piet are not dainty pieces (they're 1x1) and Doug Fir is stronger than spruce, so if it were me I think I'd look to see how straight and clear the planks are before discarding the idea and the planks. The thing about the wood between the rings is that it is softer as the ring spacing increases (wetter season?). If it were wing spars, no. Not even if I were The Fisherman II. And my opinion on this subject is worth as much as the thin air that the internet is made of ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Interest Rates NEAR 39yr LOWS! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,299/mo - Calculate new payment ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:42 PM PST US From: "Dale Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wood gear question Dan Question #1 The drawing calles for spruce. But we used ash for the whole landing gear.If you make perfect landings use spruce Question #2 I don't know. Question #3 Rely on the metal side plates.Glue won't hold on the end grain. Dale > [Original Message] > From: Dan Loegering > To: > Date: 5/1/2007 9:03:27 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood gear question > > > Getting close to cutting the wood for the gear and just have a couple of questions. > > First - it is spruce that is used for the legs correct? And just ash for the bottom block... > > Second - what is the purpose for angling the bottom ash blocks back so they intersect at the tail wheel (if you were to extend them all the way back...)? I understand the reasoning for angling them for clearance when the plane is in 3-point attitude, but would there be any reason to not keep the ash block in line with the wheels (not angled inward towards the tail wheel)? It would make the bottom cuts much easier to make without the inward cant. > > Third - do you glue the bottom joints from the legs to the ash, or do you rely on the metal side plates to attach these pieces? > > Thanks! > > Dan Loegering > Fargo, ND > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:50 PM PST US From: VAHOWDY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fir longerons You could satisfy your concerns with a strength test. Hang a weight from a piece of spruce and then from your fir. One test is worth 100 engineers. Howdy ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:07 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: perfect landings From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Good post, Dale. I can vouch for good clean spruce gear legs and ash bottom pieces as I have made some real ground-smasher landings with no damage. On the gluing of the ash pieces---I roughed them up good with 100 grit or so paper and glued them with T-88 to the spruce legs and they have held beautifully. Don't clamp so tight as to squeeze the glue all out though. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:54 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fir longerons One engineer to set up your test right is worth 10,000 tests that give answers to questions you didn't know you asked. ---- VAHOWDY@aol.com wrote: > You could satisfy your concerns with a strength test. Hang a weight from a > piece of spruce and then from your fir. One test is worth 100 engineers. > Howdy > > > > ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:06 PM PST US From: santiago morete Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail attachment Ed and Rick, thanks for the past answers. We glue two small plywood wedges as suggested. Today we bolt the empenage to the fuselage, no problems. Attached a couple of pictures, the second one is the elevator stop (1/8 aluminum plate), not a new design but I like the simplicity and light weight of this device. Saludos Santiago --------------------------------- Pregunt. Respond. Descubr. Todo lo que queras saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:15 PM PST US From: santiago morete Subject: Pietenpol-List: Finger faster than brain Yep, I forgot the pictures --------------------------------- Pregunt. Respond. Descubr. Todo lo que queras saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:04 PM PST US From: kmordecai001@comcast.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Carb Ice Pieters, I ran into serious carb icing a while back while climbing out. This is an A-75 with Stromberg carb & Aeronca stacks. The weather was cool and humid, worst case icing conditions. Yes, they're not supposed to do that at WOT, I know, but immediate application of carb heat cleared it up. Climbed on up to a safe altitude over the field at full throttle, turned carb heat off while at WOT, and the problem recurred in less than 30 seconds. Not the slow loss of power described in the textbooks, but roughness followed by loss of several hundred rpm within seconds. Once again, carb heat cleared it up almost instantly. The real root cause of the problem? I believe it was Mogas containing ethanol, saturated with water. I had noticed a loss of static rpm during runup, maybe 75-100 rpm, but it was smooth and sounded good, so I blamed it on cold oil. After being seriously spooked by the carb icing at WOT, I landed & rechecked the gascolator, but no free water was present. Went to the EAA website and followed the instructions on how to make an ethanol tester with a tall skinny bottle, and found that the local BP/Amoco 87 octane did indeed contain ethanol. Since the gasoline/ethanol absorbed only a small quantity of the test water initially put in the bottle, I'm assuming that it was already saturated with water. Drained the tank, refilled with 100LL, and gained over 100 rpm static. No icing at WOT or cruise since then, but the weather has warmed up as well. The Mogas went into the lawn mower............... I'm sticking with Avgas from now on. It has it's own issues, but at least it's consistent from batch to batch, unlike the local gas stations. Dave Mordecai NX520SF Panacea, FL Oscar wrote: > Taxied to the hangar and looked under the cowling. Frost on the carb > body and manifold, and lots of condensation on the carb and manifold > areas. Carb ice. I didn't have a lot of time to give it another shot > and had other tasks to do so I did them and put the airplane away. > Thirty-five minutes after shutting down the engine, there was still > condensation on the carb. >
Pieters,
I ran into serious carb icing a while back while climbing out. This is an A-75 with Stromberg carb & Aeronca stacks.  The weather was cool and humid, worst case icing conditions.
 Yes, they're not supposed to do that at WOT, I know, but immediate application of carb heat cleared it up.  Climbed on up to a safe altitude over the field at full throttle, turned carb heat off while at WOT, and the problem recurred in less than 30 seconds. Not the slow loss of power described in the textbooks, but roughness followed by loss of several hundred rpm within seconds. Once again, carb heat cleared it up almost instantly.
The real root cause of the problem?  I believe it was Mogas containing ethanol, saturated with water. 
I had noticed a loss of static rpm during runup, maybe 75-100 rpm, but it was smooth and sounded good, so I blamed it on cold oil.  After being seriously spooked by the carb icing at WOT, I landed & rechecked the gascolator, but no free water was present.  Went to the EAA website and followed the instructions on how to make an ethanol tester with a tall skinny bottle, and found that the local BP/Amoco 87 octane did indeed contain ethanol.  Since the gasoline/ethanol absorbed only a small quantity of the test water initially put in the bottle, I'm assuming that it was already saturated with water.  
Drained the tank, refilled with 100LL, and gained over 100 rpm static.  No icing at WOT or cruise since then, but the weather has warmed up as well.  The Mogas went into the lawn mower...............
I'm sticking with Avgas from now on.  It has it's own issues, but at least it's consistent from batch to batch, unlike the local gas stations. 
 
Dave Mordecai
NX520SF
Panacea, FL
 
 
Oscar wrote:
> Taxied to the hangar and looked under the cowling. Frost on the carb
> body and manifold, and lots of condensation on the carb and manifold
> areas. Carb ice. I didn't have a lot of time to give it another shot
> and had other tasks to do so I did them and put the airplane away.
> Thirty-five minutes after shutting down the engine, there was still
> condensation on the carb.
>
________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:32 PM PST US From: Pietsrneat@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood gear question In a message dated 5/1/2007 10:34:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com writes: Hi Dan, I don't know what others have done, but I can answer for what I did on my landing gear. The plans call for spruce, and there is no need to use anything heavier. I made mine of 1/4" planks of spruce laminated together, partly for strength and partly becasue I wanted to run a channel down the middle of the strut to hide my hydraulic brake lines (a plane of this type didn't have haydraulic lines hanging out everywhere in 1929). Is this your gear, Jack. Looks great, whoever it belongs to. Ron do not archive ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:22 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fir longerons Steve My opinion is that I wouldn't use it, but don't discard it either. There are plenty of places where it's not structurally as important where it can be used. Keep shopping the lumber bins and check the 1x4 t&g flooring at the lumber yards. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Singleton To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fir longerons Hi everyone- I bought a 16ft 2x6 douglas fir that i thought might work for longerons but it only has 5 to 6 growth rings pr in. It's a very nice looking board but am wondering if the 5-6 rings an in. is enough. Thanks for the help. Steve Singleton ----- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:56 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tail attachment Didn't get any pictures Santiago. On 5/1/07, santiago morete wrote: > > Ed and Rick, thanks for the past answers. We glue two small plywood > wedges as suggested. Today we bolt the empenage to the fuselage, no > problems. > Attached a couple of pictures, the second one is the elevator stop (1/8 > aluminum plate), not a new design but I like the simplicity and light wei ght > of this device. > Saludos > > Santiago > > > ------------------------------ > *Pregunt=E1. Respond=E9. Descubr=ED.* > Todo lo que quer=EDas saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, > est=E1 en *Yahoo! Respuestas* (Beta). > > * > =========== =========== =========== > > * > > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:24 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Finger faster than brain I absolutely love the elevator travel stop! VERY nice! ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:41 PM PST US From: "Catdesigns" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood gear question Dan Q: First - it is spruce that is used for the legs correct? And just ash for the bottom block... A: Yes, and it's what I used. Q: Second - what is the purpose for angling the bottom ash blocks back so they intersect at the tail wheel A: By angling the ask blocks inward it allows the front gear leg to lie within the plane of the rear gear leg. If you do not angle the ash block in ward the rear gear leg will not sit squarely on the block no matter how you cut it. Don't assume that angling it towards the tail wheel will be the correct angle. You need to adjust so it aligns with the rear gear leg and the front gear leg. It just so happens this is about an angle to the tail wheel. The attached pictures shows my landing gear, upside down, the front gear leg is toward you. The vertical block the string is against in the inside edge of the ash block location. As you can see, to get the gear legs to line up in the same plane, the ash block needed to be angled inwards. However, the top view shows that on my setup the angle isn't quite pointing at the tail wheel (the string points at the tail wheel). Q: Third - do you glue the bottom joints from the legs to the ash, or do you rely on the metal side plates to attach these pieces? A: I don't plan on it and do not think you need to. If you can wait, soon I will post how I built my wood gear to my web site (still writing it up). It worked well for me and, although time consuming, it was rather simple to cut the gear legs accurately. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:17 PM PST US From: "Steve Singleton" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Douglas Fir longerons Thanks for the opinions fellows. I'll do a load test on a 4ft 1x1in of the spruce and of the 5 ring pr in fir and let you know what happens. Looks like i go back and try to find a better board. Steve Singleton ----- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:59 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Vs. Flybaby cockpit Make a mockpit! That will answer all your questions. http://clifdawson.ca/Pientenpol.html Clif Was fairly simple making mine 2" wider than plans, just cost a little weight and an extra sheet of 1/8" ply. Rick On 4/30/07, Ryan Michalkiewicz wrote: Has anyone ever sat in a Bowers Flybaby cockpit and how does it compare in size to the Piet? I remember it being a little tight. I'd hate to add the extra weight just for 2". Thanks, -Ryan ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:58 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood gear question I've used fir as it is readily available to me. The grain count is more than 36 because the tighter the grain the easier it is to carve smooth rounded shapes and deal with the end grain trimming that is neccessary to have a good fit at the fuselage end. Don't fight the angle of the Ash block. Just make it fit the ends of the legs firmly and smoothly. Don't forget, an awful lot of it is going to be hidden behind and under bungee cords and axle tube. The bottom cuts are much easier than the fuselage ends. :-) No glue on the leg/block joint. I stuck a gyproc through there into each leg just to hold the assembly together while fitting the plates. http://clifdawson.ca/Pietenpol3.html Clif > First - it is spruce that is used for the legs correct? And just ash for > the bottom block... > > Second - what is the purpose for angling the bottom ash blocks back so > they intersect at the tail wheel (if you were to extend them all the way > back...)? It would make the bottom cuts much easier to make without the inward cant. > > Third - do you glue the bottom joints from the legs to the ash, or do you > rely on the metal side plates to attach these pieces? > > Thanks! > > Dan Loegering > Fargo, ND > > > -- > 2:57 PM > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:05 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. 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These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "pietenpol-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Pietenpol-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Pietenpol-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Pietenpol-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Pietenpol-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Pietenpol ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:15 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.