---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/28/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:51 AM - Re: insurance () 2. 03:55 AM - Re: insurance () 3. 04:01 AM - Re: insurance () 4. 04:56 AM - Fw: Hegy 72 x 42 to trade for A-75 prop (Gene & Tammy) 5. 05:07 PM - Re: insurance (Tim Verthein) 6. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: insurance (Gene & Tammy) 7. 07:04 PM - question for Greg Chapman (Oscar Zuniga) 8. 07:37 PM - Re: question for Greg Chapman (Greg Chapman) 9. 07:49 PM - Re: Re: insurance (Rcaprd@aol.com) 10. 08:33 PM - Re: Re: insurance (Greg Chapman) 11. 10:52 PM - insurance (glich7@juno.com) 12. 11:47 PM - Visit to the USA (Steve Bryan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:20 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: insurance From: I have both hull and plpd on my new Piet/Grega from Marsh through COPA. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: May 27, 2007 10:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: insurance I believe it's been mentioned before but is it true that no insurance company will provide even liability coverage for the first 40 hours on a new Piet? Rick On 5/27/07, Dick Navratil wrote: I hate to go on, on this subject, but what if the headline in tomorrows paper is "SMALL PLANE RUNS OUT OF FUEL, LANDS ON HIGHWAY. CARS RUNS OFF ROAD TO AVOID PLANE. MOTHER AND TWO CHILDREN SERIOUSLY INJURED, HUSBAND DEAD AT SCENE. Something to think about. Dick N. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: insurance From: A little different up here in the great white north. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Chapman Sent: May 27, 2007 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: insurance I know this isn't my party but I can't remain quiet any longer on this issue. There's no way any party is authorized by any CFR to demand 'proof of insurance' on your aircraft during a ramp check. No such proof is required to be in the aircraft. No state law requires it nor do the FAA or the NTSB. Here's a guide from June 2004 which is germaine to the ramp check. http://www.globalair.com/discussions/legal_services/article~/msgID=22 If someone with a bad attitude and a valid FAA ID wants to see it, you don't have to produce it, nor do you have to admit your aircraft is uninsured. It's just not part of the formula. Now, that said, here are some parties who have a valid reason to ask to see your insurance binder (none of which require it be in the aircraft): - The operator of your field may be under some insurance requirements, too. If they are, they often want proof that the aircraft is insured before allowing you to base it on their ramp, in their hangars and so on. - IF something does happen to you and something gets damaged or someone gets hurt, the court may decide to examine your character as part of determining your sense of responsibility. This may or may not strike anyone as a reasonable way to measure your ability to be responsible but that doesn't prevent some trained leach from attempting to paint you negatively if you aren't carrying a binder. All that said, I agree that insurance (and the amount you carry) is a wager of your ability to not harm anything against the odds that something will get bent. And, like you folks, I often wonder why I'm paying for that subscription. One way to get out from under the installment plan is to bond yourself. Yes, the money is not free to use while it's backing a bond but you can build interest on the funds backing your bond. I'll go back under my rock now (where I wish I was working on a Piet). Greg Chapman harvey.rule@bell.ca wrote: > > Sometimes I like to blow off a little steam.Makes me feel better.I'd > love beer of any kind right now but this diet I'm on to loose weight > forbids it at this time.Maybe at the end of two weeks I'll celebrate > with one.I've never been ramp checked either but I have heard that > authorities are showing up more and more now at local fly ins.I'd hate > to see these things go the way of the goony bird because of it. > > > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon > Bowen > Sent: May 27, 2007 1:27 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: insurance > > > > Harvey, you're a little tense, time for a Labatt's Blue or Molson's Ice > (my > two favorites) and focusing some of your good karma on old wood > aeroplanes. > If I had my Piete here in homely ole Homer,AK there'd be no way I'd > worry > about insurance. In over 40 years of flying, never had a "ramp ck" for > my > license/medical or plane's papers or anything else, does the CAA do that > > often? > Gordon > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:18 AM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: insurance > > > >> >>I once went to get car insurance and because some stupid kid decided > > to > >>wreck himself for life in some brick yard riding around on a motor > > cycle > >>in Brampton ,Ontario ,Canada, they wanted me to take out coverage for > > 3 > >>million. I said how much insurance is enough. If I take out 3 million >>and someone wants to sue me for four, are you going to cover me for > > the > >>added million? Why no she said. Exactly I said. Give me my usual one >>million and who ever sues me only gets the million plus what ever else > > I > >>have in commodities. They will not ever get 3 million plus from this >>guy. I really only wanted 100,000 but the minimum was 1 million. See > > my > >>point; it doesn't matter how much coverage you have the person sueing >>can always get everything you have anyway. So PLPD for me and the bare >>minimum for a ramp check is fine thank you. If the law would let me I >>would do away with all insurances and let the bastard take what ever > > he > >>could get and no insurance money at all would be forth coming. I >>absolutely hate these blood sucking companies that take your money for >>insurance and then build these huge buildings and then when a few big >>policies come in for payment then cry and want more money from us. > > They > >>make me sick. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: insurance From: This is my last year for hull insurance on both my aircraft.I'd rather go out and get drunk than give anymore money to those guys.I may loose an aircraft through some act but at least I won't be sitting there listning to some jerkwater go through some litany about why they can't cover my plane;act of God,act of Devel etc. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rule, Harvey G (N092740) Sent: May 28, 2007 6:56 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: insurance A little different up here in the great white north. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Chapman Sent: May 27, 2007 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: insurance I know this isn't my party but I can't remain quiet any longer on this issue. There's no way any party is authorized by any CFR to demand 'proof of insurance' on your aircraft during a ramp check. No such proof is required to be in the aircraft. No state law requires it nor do the FAA or the NTSB. Here's a guide from June 2004 which is germaine to the ramp check. http://www.globalair.com/discussions/legal_services/article~/msgID=22 If someone with a bad attitude and a valid FAA ID wants to see it, you don't have to produce it, nor do you have to admit your aircraft is uninsured. It's just not part of the formula. Now, that said, here are some parties who have a valid reason to ask to see your insurance binder (none of which require it be in the aircraft): - The operator of your field may be under some insurance requirements, too. If they are, they often want proof that the aircraft is insured before allowing you to base it on their ramp, in their hangars and so on. - IF something does happen to you and something gets damaged or someone gets hurt, the court may decide to examine your character as part of determining your sense of responsibility. This may or may not strike anyone as a reasonable way to measure your ability to be responsible but that doesn't prevent some trained leach from attempting to paint you negatively if you aren't carrying a binder. All that said, I agree that insurance (and the amount you carry) is a wager of your ability to not harm anything against the odds that something will get bent. And, like you folks, I often wonder why I'm paying for that subscription. One way to get out from under the installment plan is to bond yourself. Yes, the money is not free to use while it's backing a bond but you can build interest on the funds backing your bond. I'll go back under my rock now (where I wish I was working on a Piet). Greg Chapman harvey.rule@bell.ca wrote: > > Sometimes I like to blow off a little steam.Makes me feel better.I'd > love beer of any kind right now but this diet I'm on to loose weight > forbids it at this time.Maybe at the end of two weeks I'll celebrate > with one.I've never been ramp checked either but I have heard that > authorities are showing up more and more now at local fly ins.I'd hate > to see these things go the way of the goony bird because of it. > > > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon > Bowen > Sent: May 27, 2007 1:27 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: insurance > > > > Harvey, you're a little tense, time for a Labatt's Blue or Molson's Ice > (my > two favorites) and focusing some of your good karma on old wood > aeroplanes. > If I had my Piete here in homely ole Homer,AK there'd be no way I'd > worry > about insurance. In over 40 years of flying, never had a "ramp ck" for > my > license/medical or plane's papers or anything else, does the CAA do that > > often? > Gordon > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:18 AM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: insurance > > > >> >>I once went to get car insurance and because some stupid kid decided > > to > >>wreck himself for life in some brick yard riding around on a motor > > cycle > >>in Brampton ,Ontario ,Canada, they wanted me to take out coverage for > > 3 > >>million. I said how much insurance is enough. If I take out 3 million >>and someone wants to sue me for four, are you going to cover me for > > the > >>added million? Why no she said. Exactly I said. Give me my usual one >>million and who ever sues me only gets the million plus what ever else > > I > >>have in commodities. They will not ever get 3 million plus from this >>guy. I really only wanted 100,000 but the minimum was 1 million. See > > my > >>point; it doesn't matter how much coverage you have the person sueing >>can always get everything you have anyway. So PLPD for me and the bare >>minimum for a ramp check is fine thank you. If the law would let me I >>would do away with all insurances and let the bastard take what ever > > he > >>could get and no insurance money at all would be forth coming. I >>absolutely hate these blood sucking companies that take your money for >>insurance and then build these huge buildings and then when a few big >>policies come in for payment then cry and want more money from us. > > They > >>make me sick. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:22 AM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: Hegy 72 x 42 to trade for A-75 prop ----- Original Message ----- From: kmordecai001@comcast.net Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 9:55 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hegy 72 x 42 to trade for A-75 prop Pieters, I've got a very nice Hegy 72 x 42 on NX520SF, perfect prop for an A-65.....but mine is an A-75 so I'm not getting the desired rpm/horsepower out of it. Turns 2200 static, 2400 at WOT level flight on a cool day with a fresh tight A-75. I'd like to offer it up for trade if someone has a similar but flatter pitch prop, I'm guessing a 72 x 40 would be about right. I ran into a fellow at Sun n' Fun with an A-75 on a Grasshopper running a Sensenitch 72 x 38, but you can't directly compare different manufacturers. He said it pulled 2550-2600 climbing out, so it was definitely a climb prop. If you're interested please email me directly and I"ll reply with photos. It's not perfect after 80 hours on a grass field, has the usual little nicks on the epoxy leading edge from all the bugs down here in Florida, but is still a beautiful prop. Regards, Dave Mordecai NX520SF Panacea, FL kmordecai001@comcast.net ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:48 PM PST US From: Tim Verthein Subject: Pietenpol-List: re: insurance Well, not that I could see with a quick check....however...you are required to register your plane with the State (and pay the appropriate tax) and to get that registration one thing you must do is provide proof of insurance. So, if you're registered, you're insured. Unless you let it lapse, but even in the case of a ramp check, they'd never know unless they called the company to be sure it's still in force, kinda like the insurance cards in our cars..they all LOOK find, but they don't know you've been cancelled untill you hit something and turns out you're not covered! But also just like cars, eventually i bet someone at the insurance outfit tells someone in a regulatory office that you're not covered! Tim in Bovey Yep, that is not a surprise, BUT there is no requirement for proof of insurance in the aircraft to satisfy any line or ramp check, correct? Greg Tim Verthein wrote: > > Here in good ol' Minnesota...liability insurance is REQUIRED! I believe > the ONLY State that REQUIRES aircraft insurance.... == You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor! == Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:55 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: re: insurance Hi All, just wondering how many have ever been ramp checked? Gene ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:03 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: question for Greg Chapman >I'll go back under my rock now (where I wish I was working on a Piet). >Greg Chapman So, why aren't you working on a Piet? Got plans? Got a little area where you can work? Get started! It doesn't take much... Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows Live Hotmail. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:04 PM PST US From: Greg Chapman Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for Greg Chapman I have another airplane ( a 1961 172B) which satisfies more people than just me, has an enclosed cockpit, etc., a job that eats more than 60 hours a week, and so on. The Piet is a fun dream at this point. Before I start one, I'll first buy a core Continental O300-D, rebuild it (under supervision), can it and then start thinking about building a Piet in the basement of a Chicago bungalow where all my neighbors already have me cast as eccentric, individualistic (I don't bleat very well) loud. ;) So I'll watch you guys for a while, learn what I can and maybe before I die, I'll sacrifice some spruce and STP. Something about the Piet is so much more attractive than an RV-*. Greg Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > >> I'll go back under my rock now (where I wish I was working on a Piet). >> Greg Chapman > > > So, why aren't you working on a Piet? Got plans? Got a little area > where you can work? Get started! It doesn't take much... > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:24 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: re: insurance In a message dated 5/28/2007 7:45:59 PM Central Daylight Time, zharvey@bellsouth.net writes: Hi All, just wondering how many have ever been ramp checked? Gene I didn't have any type of insurance till I completed the test period of 40 hrs, and got some tailwheel time under my belt...although the only tailwheel training I got before flying my Piet, was 1/2 hr in a J3 cub, with about 3 or 4 landings. I now have Avemco (liability), but I've never been ramp checked. I can't recall anyone I know, saying they've ever been ramp checked. Chuck G. NX770CG haven't got much time in the seat so far this year...everything else keeps getting in the way. do not archive ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:09 PM PST US From: Greg Chapman Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: re: insurance > But also just like cars, eventually i bet > someone at the insurance outfit tells someone in a regulatory office > that you're not covered! I have no doubt of that, either. The point is, though, that a ramp check carries no requirement for your bond papers. When you check the FARs, they are the sole set of guidance for what must be with you and in the airplane. Not gonna quote, but we are required to have only our medical and our 'license'. Your airplane must have it's Airworthiness Cert, Weight and Balance, Registration (there's your proof in your state), appropriate placards, operating limitations and a POH , if the aircraft has one. Note that a Radio License is no longer required. There are additional items, including a great gotcha for older airplanes, like charts, flashlight and a checklist with specific parts (which is the gotcha element for older airplanes, Check 91.503, it's a killer as it's marked for Turbine and Large aircraft but elements of it are pr). But nowhere is there any requirement for proof of insurance during a ramp check. That's all my point is. It has nothing to do with whether you should or shouldn't be covered. You just don't need proof of it in the airplane, that's all. Greg Chapman Tim Verthein wrote: > > Well, not that I could see with a quick check....however...you are > required to register your plane with the State (and pay the appropriate > tax) and to get that registration one thing you must do is provide > proof of insurance. So, if you're registered, you're insured. Unless > you let it lapse, but even in the case of a ramp check, they'd never > know unless they called the company to be sure it's still in force, > kinda like the insurance cards in our cars..they all LOOK find, but > they don't know you've been cancelled untill you hit something and > turns out you're not covered! But also just like cars, eventually i bet > someone at the insurance outfit tells someone in a regulatory office > that you're not covered! > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:51 PM PST US From: "glich7@juno.com" Subject: Pietenpol-List: insurance Hey list, Just wanted to add a few cents of my own (or a dollar) to the jackpot of comments so far. I previously stated my views/understanding about ability to obtain insurance and my plans to at least do the test period without it, because it would be much more difficult, not impossible, and more expensive to get day one coverage for the first flight, because I wouldn't have much time in type, or tailwheel time. As for ramp checks and such, I'm not aware of very many if any other states other than Minnesota, that require any kind of insurance. Airport owners maybe, banks holding the loan for kitplanes maybe, but not the state itself. In ohio, car insurance liability is required for all drivers/cars, and there are now big penalties for not having your plane registered with the state, no matter what its condition, but no requirements for planes to be insured for liability or otherwise. The "everything must be registered" rule is kind of a bummer for anyone who has several "I'm gonna restore that someday" projects lying around, and the fine is more than what registration costs so it's easier to register and be legal. I have not heard of any requirement to show proof of insurance at the time of registration for Ohio, I will have to look into that, but I doubt it. Something else to consider, I believe most charity flight groups and the Young Eagles program does require coverage for passengers, though I could be wrong, so going without would mean all of your rides for the kids would have to be unofficial. I will probably end up with at least third party liability, and possibly passenger/property coverage after the test period is over, just because my tolerance for losing all I own to lawyers is low, and the insurance cost also, sometimes, buys you defense representation, which could be worth your premium if you need it, though the AOPA Legal assistance would be better. One thing I know I won't get is Hull coverage. I'm building from scratch and I will hold the repairman certificate, so I would be fixing whatever breaks. It's too much hassle to pay what could add up to almost another plane over 15 years, and then find out that I still must pay a deductible and that someone else has to give an estimate and do the work for my claim to be paid. Or worse, it's a day ending in 'y' and they refuse to pay the claim because of it. I'd rather put that money in a pietenpol maintenance fund than never see it again. This all assumes that GA hasn't been user fee-d and taxed into oblivion when the plane's done. Thanks to whoever posted the globalair link, great articles about lots of stuff.(Graham?)I had forgotten about it. I'm sure it's obvious but what's the abbreviation PLPD mean? Is it not for polite company or am I just slow? Sorry this rambled, I'll keep the damage minimal... DO NOT ARCHIVE Feel free to correct, dispute, and/or clarify my opinions and facts. Tim Hansen in Orient, Ohio ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:13 PM PST US From: Steve Bryan Subject: Pietenpol-List: Visit to the USA Hi everyone! Let me introduce myself, my name is Steve Bryan, I live in the UK and I've been building a Pietenpol for nine years now (I'm a slow worker!). In fact, there's even a picture of me and some mates with my Corvair engine in Chet Peek's 'Pietenpol Story'! I've been 'lurking' on this list for a long time and have learnt a lot just by following along, but this is my first post. The reason that I'm finally posting is because I'm going to be in the USA next month for the Formula One Grand Prix at Indianapolis (it's a car race, I work on brakes and clutches for the cars) and I thought I might try to plan a little Pietenpol tourism! I thought I could drive up from Chicago to look at the EAA museum at Oshkosh and maybe call in for a look at Brodhead? I know there won't be any fly-in taking place, but I've heard there are a lot of interesting aeroplanes based there? Does this plan sound feasible in the couple of days I will have? Any other suggestions for places to visit in the vicinity? I would appreciate any guidance. Thanks a lot. This plain text message has been scanned for viruses by BlackSpider MailControl - www.blackspider.com If you are not the intended recipient it may be unlawful for you to read, copy, distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this e-mail; please return the e-mail to the sender and immediately permanently delete it and any attachments. The sender does not accept liability for any data corruption, interception or unauthorised amendment to which e-mail may be susceptible, or the consequences thereof. Opinions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of AP Racing Ltd are neither given nor endorsed by it. Whilst AP Racing Ltd take reasonable care to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail does not contain software viruses, this cannot be guaranteed and you should therefore carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. AP Racing Ltd accepts no responsibility or liability for any damage that you suffer as a result of software viruses. Visit to the USA

Hi everyone!

Let me introduce myself, my n ame is Steve Bryan, I live in the UK and I've been building a Pietenpol for nine years now (I'm a slow worker!). In fact, there's even a picture of me and some mates with my Corvair engine in C het Peek's 'Pietenpol Story'! I've been '< /FONT>lurking' on this list for a long time an d have learnt a lot just by following along, but this is my first post.

The reason that I'm finally po sting is because I'm going to be in the USA next month for the Formula One Grand Prix at Indianapolis (it's a car race, I work on brakes and clutches for the cars) and I thought I might tr y to plan a little Pietenpol tourism! I thought I could drive up from Chicag o to look at the EAA museum at Oshkosh and maybe call in for a look at Brodhead? I know there won't be any fly-in taking place, but I've heard there are a lot of interesting aeroplanes base d there?

Does this plan sound < FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">feasible in the couple of days I will have? Any other suggestions for places to visit in the vicinity? I would appreciate any guidance.

Thanks a lot. 



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