---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/22/07: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:15 AM - Re: rigging (Phillips, Jack) 2. 05:43 AM - Re: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings (Scott Schreiber) 3. 05:55 AM - Re: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings () 4. 06:03 AM - Re: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings (Terry Hall) 5. 06:19 AM - Re: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings (Bill Church) 6. 06:25 AM - Re: rigging (Jack T. Textor) 7. 06:39 AM - Re: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings (Michael Groah) 8. 07:07 AM - Re: rigging (Phillips, Jack) 9. 07:18 AM - Re: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings (Phillips, Jack) 10. 08:32 AM - T88 glue (Jeff Hill) 11. 09:21 AM - Re: T88 glue (Gordon Bowen) 12. 09:45 AM - Re: rigging (Bill Church) 13. 09:54 AM - Re: T88 glue (Amsafetyc@aol.com) 14. 10:13 AM - Re: rigging (Dave Abramson) 15. 10:24 AM - Re: rigging (Phillips, Jack) 16. 10:30 AM - Re: rigging (Phillips, Jack) 17. 11:42 AM - cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 18. 11:53 AM - Re: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level () 19. 12:13 PM - Re: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level (Bill Church) 20. 03:42 PM - Re: Cost to build your completed Pietenpol and other questions (Rick Holland) 21. 04:41 PM - Re: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level (Dick Navratil) 22. 04:49 PM - w/b (Dick Navratil) 23. 09:05 PM - Corvairs.....Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (shad bell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging From: "Phillips, Jack" That's what I used in rigging mine - a surveyor's transit. Using it as Shad described I was able to have each wingtip within 1/16" of each other in heigt above the longerons. The plane has never needed any adjustment (I have pitch trim), although rudder trim would be nice. As Tony Bingelis said "Building an airplane is just one exercise in alignment after another." But if you build it straight, it will fly straight. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shad bell Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rigging Another handy tool for rigging washout and dihedrial (if you put any in) is a surveyers level, or transit as I think it's called. My grandfather used to be a contractor so we had access to one for rigging the piet. Like Mike did we went to a particular rib (2nd or 3rd from the tip) and counted forward from the trailing edge 2 or 3 rib stitches and sighted in on what ever measurement we were going for and thats all there was to it. It flew hands off on the first flight, except in pitch because there is no elevator trim, and I'm 35lbs lighter than Dad. It stalls almost streight ahead, and won't break hard unless you really pull the nose up to 25-30 degrees. Shad _____ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:47 AM PST US From: "Scott Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings More great info. Allow me to demonstrate the expanse of my ignorance. This is my first plane and I simply don't know a great many details others take for granted. For example, how does one actually connect the cable and turnbuckes to the fittings? Do you run the cable and a thimble through the hole? Do you nicopress on an end fiting and have that hold it? I really don't know. On the up side, I am amazed at how much I know now Vs what I started with in October with a set of plans and a garage full of spruce and ply. -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 8:09 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Hi Scott, I used 1/8" 1 x 19 cables for my drag and anti-drag wires. You can find cable in the Aircraft Spruce catalog (page 139 in the current catalog). Wicks and Dillsburg carry it as well, at generally better prices. 1 x 19 is stronger than 7 x 19, but is less flexible and can be a real bear to bend around the thimble and crimp in a nicopress fitting. For the slight difference in tensile strength, I would not recommend 1 x 19, but go with the more flexible 7 x 19 cable. There has been discussion on this list recently about what kind of nicopress fittings to use with galvanized or stainless cable. Use zinc or nickel plated copper for stainless cable, bare copper with galvanized cable. I must confess, I didn't know there was a difference and used bare copper on my stainless cables. Just another item to check carefully during the annual condition inspection. Be careful to trammel the wing accurately when you install and tighten the drag and anti-drag wires. If your wing is trammeled accurately, and rigged well the plane will fly pretty much hands off. Skip this step and you'll find yourself adding ground adjustable trim tabs to your ailerons. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Counting the days till Brodhead ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schreiber Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:37 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Dick, thanks for the quick response, I have my bolt list together and just need to add the wire and such. I found the turnbuckles on Wicks right away but searching for 3/32x7/19 didn't turn up anything. Is that any specific type of wire that would be listed in the catalog? -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Scott 3/32x7/19 is good for internal drag wires with MS21251-b3s turnbuckles. Wing strut fittings are 1/8" 7/19 wire and turnbuckles are MS 21251-b5s. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings I have both wings done sans bracing wire, and need to get that done. I made the fittings and am ready to do the wires. As I understand it the hard wire is either not available or not used? What sort of wire and fittings are appropriate for this? And I suppose I have the same question for the tail brace and the brace wire between the lift struts. Other than the center section I can say I have all the major assemblys done. So it seems I am headed into that last 25% that takes as long as the first 75% or however it breaks down these days. -Scott Schreiber href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings From: I nicopressed at the point under the wings and then used the fork type connection at the turnbuckle connecting to the fusy.If you look in Aircraft Spruce you'll see a fork type connection for the turnbuckle which a bolt will fit through.At the fusy you should have brackets there with holes in them already. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schreiber Sent: June 22, 2007 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings More great info. Allow me to demonstrate the expanse of my ignorance. This is my first plane and I simply don't know a great many details others take for granted. For example, how does one actually connect the cable and turnbuckes to the fittings? Do you run the cable and a thimble through the hole? Do you nicopress on an end fiting and have that hold it? I really don't know. On the up side, I am amazed at how much I know now Vs what I started with in October with a set of plans and a garage full of spruce and ply. -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 8:09 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Hi Scott, I used 1/8" 1 x 19 cables for my drag and anti-drag wires. You can find cable in the Aircraft Spruce catalog (page 139 in the current catalog). Wicks and Dillsburg carry it as well, at generally better prices. 1 x 19 is stronger than 7 x 19, but is less flexible and can be a real bear to bend around the thimble and crimp in a nicopress fitting. For the slight difference in tensile strength, I would not recommend 1 x 19, but go with the more flexible 7 x 19 cable. There has been discussion on this list recently about what kind of nicopress fittings to use with galvanized or stainless cable. Use zinc or nickel plated copper for stainless cable, bare copper with galvanized cable. I must confess, I didn't know there was a difference and used bare copper on my stainless cables. Just another item to check carefully during the annual condition inspection. Be careful to trammel the wing accurately when you install and tighten the drag and anti-drag wires. If your wing is trammeled accurately, and rigged well the plane will fly pretty much hands off. Skip this step and you'll find yourself adding ground adjustable trim tabs to your ailerons. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Counting the days till Brodhead ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schreiber Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:37 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Dick, thanks for the quick response, I have my bolt list together and just need to add the wire and such. I found the turnbuckles on Wicks right away but searching for 3/32x7/19 didn't turn up anything. Is that any specific type of wire that would be listed in the catalog? -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Scott 3/32x7/19 is good for internal drag wires with MS21251-b3s turnbuckles. Wing strut fittings are 1/8" 7/19 wire and turnbuckles are MS 21251-b5s. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings I have both wings done sans bracing wire, and need to get that done. I made the fittings and am ready to do the wires. As I understand it the hard wire is either not available or not used? What sort of wire and fittings are appropriate for this? And I suppose I have the same question for the tail brace and the brace wire between the lift struts. Other than the center section I can say I have all the major assemblys done. So it seems I am headed into that last 25% that takes as long as the first 75% or however it breaks down these days. -Scott Schreiber href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat r onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat r onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat r onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:17 AM PST US From: "Terry Hall" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Scott, your knowledge will continue to grow the more you solve the problems you face. I think that I spend more time thinking about how to accomplish a specific task on my Sky Scout than actually "doing" it. Terry Hall ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 7:41 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings More great info. Allow me to demonstrate the expanse of my ignorance. This is my first plane and I simply don't know a great many details others take for granted. For example, how does one actually connect the cable and turnbuckes to the fittings? Do you run the cable and a thimble through the hole? Do you nicopress on an end fiting and have that hold it? I really don't know. On the up side, I am amazed at how much I know now Vs what I started with in October with a set of plans and a garage full of spruce and ply. -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 8:09 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Hi Scott, I used 1/8" 1 x 19 cables for my drag and anti-drag wires. You can find cable in the Aircraft Spruce catalog (page 139 in the current catalog). Wicks and Dillsburg carry it as well, at generally better prices. 1 x 19 is stronger than 7 x 19, but is less flexible and can be a real bear to bend around the thimble and crimp in a nicopress fitting. For the slight difference in tensile strength, I would not recommend 1 x 19, but go with the more flexible 7 x 19 cable. There has been discussion on this list recently about what kind of nicopress fittings to use with galvanized or stainless cable. Use zinc or nickel plated copper for stainless cable, bare copper with galvanized cable. I must confess, I didn't know there was a difference and used bare copper on my stainless cables. Just another item to check carefully during the annual condition inspection. Be careful to trammel the wing accurately when you install and tighten the drag and anti-drag wires. If your wing is trammeled accurately, and rigged well the plane will fly pretty much hands off. Skip this step and you'll find yourself adding ground adjustable trim tabs to your ailerons. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Counting the days till Brodhead ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schreiber Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:37 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Dick, thanks for the quick response, I have my bolt list together and just need to add the wire and such. I found the turnbuckles on Wicks right away but searching for 3/32x7/19 didn't turn up anything. Is that any specific type of wire that would be listed in the catalog? -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Scott 3/32x7/19 is good for internal drag wires with MS21251-b3s turnbuckles. Wing strut fittings are 1/8" 7/19 wire and turnbuckles are MS 21251-b5s. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings I have both wings done sans bracing wire, and need to get that done. I made the fittings and am ready to do the wires. As I understand it the hard wire is either not available or not used? What sort of wire and fittings are appropriate for this? And I suppose I have the same question for the tail brace and the brace wire between the lift struts. Other than the center section I can say I have all the major assemblys done. So it seems I am headed into that last 25% that takes as long as the first 75% or however it breaks down these days. -Scott Schreiber href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:21 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings From: "Bill Church" Scott, I'm going to beat Mike Cuy to the punch on this one. Do yourself a big favor and buy the set of Tony Bingelis books. It will be the best $89 you spend in building your plane. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/bingelis.php Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schreiber Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings More great info. Allow me to demonstrate the expanse of my ignorance. This is my first plane and I simply don't know a great many details others take for granted. For example, how does one actually connect the cable and turnbuckes to the fittings? Do you run the cable and a thimble through the hole? Do you nicopress on an end fiting and have that hold it? I really don't know. On the up side, I am amazed at how much I know now Vs what I started with in October with a set of plans and a garage full of spruce and ply. -Scott ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging From: "Jack T. Textor" Has anyone had much luck using a laser type transit? I'm always concerned about the initial leveling. I did have some luck using one to level my 16' work bench. Looking forward to Brodhead! Jack Textor ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:04 AM PST US From: Michael Groah Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Also going to westcoastpiet.com and looking through the pictures can be helpful if you're confused about a part or assembly. Just make sure to look at several builders pics as sometimes different builders do things in thier own way. Bill Church wrote: Scott, I'm going to beat Mike Cuy to the punch on this one. Do yourself a big favor and buy the set of Tony Bingelis books. It will be the best $89 you spend in building your plane. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/bingelis.php Bill C. --------------------------------- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schreiber Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings More great info. Allow me to demonstrate the expanse of my ignorance. This is my first plane and I simply don't know a great many details others take for granted. For example, how does one actually connect the cable and turnbuckes to the fittings? Do you run the cable and a thimble through the hole? Do you nicopress on an end fiting and have that hold it? I really don't know. On the up side, I am amazed at how much I know now Vs what I started with in October with a set of plans and a garage full of spruce and ply. -Scott --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging From: "Phillips, Jack" I started by using a laser level. I found the beam is about 1/8" to 3/16" in diameter and you can get MUCH better resolution with an optical transit. Laser levels and transits are accurate enough for home builders (I mean house builders) where the tolerances are generally +/- 1/4" or more, but for fine work use an optical transit. Jack Phillips _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack T. Textor Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:27 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging Has anyone had much luck using a laser type transit? I'm always concerned about the initial leveling. I did have some luck using one to level my 16' work bench. Looking forward to Brodhead! Jack Textor _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings From: "Phillips, Jack" Hi Scott, The "certified" way to go is to use AN 115 cable shackles with clevis pins. Latest AS&S catalog shows the AN 115-21 which is used with 3/32" or 1/8" cable at $10.80 each. Many people have made satisfactory shackles from motorcycle chain links at a fraction of that price. The turnbuckles and shackles can easily add up to more than the cost of the wood in this airplane, because there are a LOT of cables. In general you don't want to pass the cable through your fitting in order to make removal easier (you would have to cut the cable or remove the fitting). But in the interest of saving money and weight, it could certainly be done. Jack _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schreiber Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings More great info. Allow me to demonstrate the expanse of my ignorance. This is my first plane and I simply don't know a great many details others take for granted. For example, how does one actually connect the cable and turnbuckes to the fittings? Do you run the cable and a thimble through the hole? Do you nicopress on an end fiting and have that hold it? I really don't know. On the up side, I am amazed at how much I know now Vs what I started with in October with a set of plans and a garage full of spruce and ply. -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 8:09 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Hi Scott, I used 1/8" 1 x 19 cables for my drag and anti-drag wires. You can find cable in the Aircraft Spruce catalog (page 139 in the current catalog). Wicks and Dillsburg carry it as well, at generally better prices. 1 x 19 is stronger than 7 x 19, but is less flexible and can be a real bear to bend around the thimble and crimp in a nicopress fitting. For the slight difference in tensile strength, I would not recommend 1 x 19, but go with the more flexible 7 x 19 cable. There has been discussion on this list recently about what kind of nicopress fittings to use with galvanized or stainless cable. Use zinc or nickel plated copper for stainless cable, bare copper with galvanized cable. I must confess, I didn't know there was a difference and used bare copper on my stainless cables. Just another item to check carefully during the annual condition inspection. Be careful to trammel the wing accurately when you install and tighten the drag and anti-drag wires. If your wing is trammeled accurately, and rigged well the plane will fly pretty much hands off. Skip this step and you'll find yourself adding ground adjustable trim tabs to your ailerons. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Counting the days till Brodhead _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schreiber Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:37 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Dick, thanks for the quick response, I have my bolt list together and just need to add the wire and such. I found the turnbuckles on Wicks right away but searching for 3/32x7/19 didn't turn up anything. Is that any specific type of wire that would be listed in the catalog? -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings Scott 3/32x7/19 is good for internal drag wires with MS21251-b3s turnbuckles. Wing strut fittings are 1/8" 7/19 wire and turnbuckles are MS 21251-b5s. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: drag, tail brace, and strut wires and fittings I have both wings done sans bracing wire, and need to get that done. I made the fittings and am ready to do the wires. As I understand it the hard wire is either not available or not used? What sort of wire and fittings are appropriate for this? And I suppose I have the same question for the tail brace and the brace wire between the lift struts. Other than the center section I can say I have all the major assemblys done. So it seems I am headed into that last 25% that takes as long as the first 75% or however it breaks down these days. -Scott Schreiber href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:38 AM PST US From: Jeff Hill Subject: Pietenpol-List: T88 glue A couple of days ago I saw a post saying that resourcinol was the only glue that has a mil spec number. I have also seen a mil spec number for T88 in an article on homebuilding. Can this be confirmed by anybody? Unfortunately West System epoxy does not have a number but it is a fantastic glue and fa r more versatile than T88 because of the micro fibers that can be added for viscosity and strength and sandability. It is also less expensive. Jeff Hill planning for Brodhead _________________________________________________________________ Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search Club.- http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:18 AM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T88 glue Jeff, I spent 30 years in the epoxy and urethane industry, can assure you that not all epoxy formulas are for wood bonding. Wood has a residual water content, even when dried. The epoxy formula has to have an additive that will bond with the water molecules plus mechanically bond to the wood fibers to be totally effective. If you decide to try other systems for "glueing" your plane together, do some testing on your own and/or get the original manufacturers actual test data bonding wood. Saf-t-poxy and RAE originally developed for Rutan-type composites was not optimized for wood bonding, it was designed for fiberglass laminates. There are 1000's of epoxy formulas, for applications as varied as electrical potting to wood boat building. Many of the wood boat building formulas are lower in viscosity that T-88 and can be filled with fiberglass strands, for fumed silica (Cab-o-sil) or bulking fillers like glass microballons, I would not recommend cotton flox as a thickener for possible wet wood applications. T-88 has a long history in wood bonding and is thicker so it won't run out of the gap you're trying to bond, plus T-88 has a long history in homebuilt aeroplanes. Some of the West system epoxies are for fiberglass composites and some are for wood boat applications. Do a little homework on the manufacturer's websites before you make up your mind about a product as important as the stuff that's holding your plane together. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Hill To: Pietenpol pietlist Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: T88 glue A couple of days ago I saw a post saying that resourcinol was the only glue that has a mil spec number. I have also seen a mil spec number for T88 in an article on homebuilding. Can this be confirmed by anybody? Unfortunately West System epoxy does not have a number but it is a fantastic glue and far more versatile than T88 because of the micro fibers that can be added for viscosity and strength and sandability. It is also less expensive. Jeff Hill planning for Brodhead ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search Club. Join Live Search Club! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:24 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging From: "Bill Church" That's the big thing about laser levels. The laser line is always straight, even with dollar store laser pointers. The better quality lasers stay focussed, and the cheap ones diverge (beam widens) the further you get from the source. The better ones also have a much finer line to start with. The cheap ones start out about 1/8" wide, which isn't very easy to get precise measurements with. Now, when I say "better" I am talking about industrial/construction type surveying laser levels, where the laser beam is only 1/32" wide - and one of those is going to run about $1000 (ouch!). If you can get hold of one of the "old fashioned" optical surveying transits (actually called a theodolite), that's definitely the more precise tool. You should be able to rent one for about $25 a day from just about any tool rental place. Bill C. ________________________________ Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging Has anyone had much luck using a laser type transit? I'm always concerned about the initial leveling. I did have some luck using one to level my 16' work bench. Looking forward to Brodhead! Jack Textor ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T88 glue From: Amsafetyc@aol.com Jeff, For what its worth, I am using West Systems epoxy with the occasional addition. of the micro fiber for filler applications. I really like the mix, application and hold. The stuff works great! I use the slow cure hardner. for the additional pot life, seems like the stuff has several application options. Just my opinion John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Gordon Bowen" To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T88 glue Jeff, I spent 30 years in the epoxy and urethane industry, can assure you that not all epoxy formulas are for wood bonding. Wood has a residual water content, even when dried. The epoxy formula has to have an additive that will bond with the water molecules plus mechanically bond to the wood fibers to be totally effective. If you decide to try other systems for "glueing" your plane together, do some testing on your own and/or get the original manufacturers actual test data bonding wood. Saf-t-poxy and RAE originally developed for Rutan-type composites was not optimized for wood bonding, it was designed for fiberglass laminates. There are 1000's of epoxy formulas, for applications as varied as electrical potting to wood boat building. Many of the wood boat building formulas are lower in viscosity that T-88 and can be filled with fiberglass strands, for fumed silica (Cab-o-sil)or bulking fillers like glassmicroballons, I would not recommend cotton flox as a thickener for possible wet wood applications. T-88 has a long history in wood bonding and is thicker so it won't run out of the gap you're trying to bond, plus T-88 has a long history in homebuilt aeroplanes. Some of the West system epoxies are for fiberglass composites and some are for wood boat applications. Do a little homework on the manufacturer's websites before you make up your mind about a product as important as the stuff that's holding your plane together. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Hill Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: T88 glue A couple of days ago I saw a post saying that resourcinol was the only glue that has a mil spec number. I have also seen a mil spec number for T88 in an article on homebuilding. Can this be confirmed by anybody? Unfortunately West System epoxy does not have a number but it is a fantastic glue and far more versatile than T88 because of the micro fibers that can be added for viscosity and strength and sandability. It is also less expensive. Jeff Hill planning for Brodhead ---------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:01 AM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging I don't think BP used a laser level... Is this overkill???? Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:45 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging That's the big thing about laser levels. The laser line is always straight, even with dollar store laser pointers. The better quality lasers stay focussed, and the cheap ones diverge (beam widens) the further you get from the source. The better ones also have a much finer line to start with. The cheap ones start out about 1/8" wide, which isn't very easy to get precise measurements with. Now, when I say "better" I am talking about industrial/construction type surveying laser levels, where the laser beam is only 1/32" wide - and one of those is going to run about $1000 (ouch!). If you can get hold of one of the "old fashioned" optical surveying transits (actually called a theodolite), that's definitely the more precise tool. You should be able to rent one for about $25 a day from just about any tool rental place. Bill C. _____ Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging Has anyone had much luck using a laser type transit? I'm always concerned about the initial leveling. I did have some luck using one to level my 16' work bench. Looking forward to Brodhead! Jack Textor ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging From: "Phillips, Jack" You don't actually need a theodolite. What I used is what's called a "Dumpy" Level. It is basically a theodolite without the ability to measure angles from the horizontal. It swivels on a leveled tripod and can be used to accurately measure changes in elevation. I borrowed one from a friend, then ended up buying one from Sears for a couple hundred bucks. Jack Phillips _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 12:45 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging That's the big thing about laser levels. The laser line is always straight, even with dollar store laser pointers. The better quality lasers stay focussed, and the cheap ones diverge (beam widens) the further you get from the source. The better ones also have a much finer line to start with. The cheap ones start out about 1/8" wide, which isn't very easy to get precise measurements with. Now, when I say "better" I am talking about industrial/construction type surveying laser levels, where the laser beam is only 1/32" wide - and one of those is going to run about $1000 (ouch!). If you can get hold of one of the "old fashioned" optical surveying transits (actually called a theodolite), that's definitely the more precise tool. You should be able to rent one for about $25 a day from just about any tool rental place. Bill C. _____ Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging Has anyone had much luck using a laser type transit? I'm always concerned about the initial leveling. I did have some luck using one to level my 16' work bench. Looking forward to Brodhead! Jack Textor _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging From: "Phillips, Jack" It's only overkill if you don't mind flying a Chinese Cross-Country (One Wing Low). Seriously, it doesn't matter how you achieve it, but a well-rigged airplane will fly better than a poorly rigged one. And just because BHP didn't do it that way doesn't mean it isn't better. How many of you are flying Pietenpols with the stabilizer screwed into the longerons with #7 wood screws? _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Abramson Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 1:12 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging I don't think BP used a laser level....... Is this overkill???? Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:45 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging That's the big thing about laser levels. The laser line is always straight, even with dollar store laser pointers. The better quality lasers stay focussed, and the cheap ones diverge (beam widens) the further you get from the source. The better ones also have a much finer line to start with. The cheap ones start out about 1/8" wide, which isn't very easy to get precise measurements with. Now, when I say "better" I am talking about industrial/construction type surveying laser levels, where the laser beam is only 1/32" wide - and one of those is going to run about $1000 (ouch!). If you can get hold of one of the "old fashioned" optical surveying transits (actually called a theodolite), that's definitely the more precise tool. You should be able to rent one for about $25 a day from just about any tool rental place. Bill C. _____ Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rigging Has anyone had much luck using a laser type transit? I'm always concerned about the initial leveling. I did have some luck using one to level my 16' work bench. Looking forward to Brodhead! Jack Textor - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:28 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" I have assisted others with rigging (a biplane as well) wings and other flying surfaces using a length of simple Tygon clear plastic tubing from Home Depot or Lowes filled with water. The water always seeks level and can be used to level your longerons, wings, fuselage, tailfeathers and even your tree house. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:20 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level From: That's an excellent idea but wouldn't you have to leave a bubble in there?Or maybe half fill the tube. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] Sent: June 22, 2007 2:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level I have assisted others with rigging (a biplane as well) wings and other flying surfaces using a length of simple Tygon clear plastic tubing from Home Depot or Lowes filled with water. The water always seeks level and can be used to level your longerons, wings, fuselage, tailfeathers and even your tree house. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:24 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level From: "Bill Church" Harvey, Check this out. I'm pretty sure this is what Mike was referring to. http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/WaterLevel.htm ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 3:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level That's an excellent idea but wouldn't you have to leave a bubble in there?Or maybe half fill the tube. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] Sent: June 22, 2007 2:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level I have assisted others with rigging (a biplane as well) wings and other flying surfaces using a length of simple Tygon clear plastic tubing from Home Depot or Lowes filled with water. The water always seeks level and can be used to level your longerons, wings, fuselage, tailfeathers and even your tree house. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:38 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cost to build your completed Pietenpol and other questions Don't know if its that hard to believe that you can get sued in this country for distributing plans. Dick Rutan stopped selling his EZ plans for the same reason I assume. Interesting question about legal liability of reselling some plans that you don't use (or selling someone a part that you built for a homebuilt, like a set of ribs). Rick On 6/18/07, DJ Vegh wrote: > > I'm almost certain that he withdrew the plans because he's nervous about > liability issues. kinda dumb really. how many Piets/GN-1's have you seen go > down and the copyright owner of the plans get sued? > > I wonder though what the legal issues are if someone bought plans but then > decides they do not want them and wish to sell. > > I believe it's all legit. much like selling a used book or music CD. > Could probably find folks out there who wish to sell their plans > > DJ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* baileys > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2007 11:12 AM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Cost to build your completed Pietenpol and > other questions > > Umm, side note - I believe the GN-1 plans have been withdrawn from the > market. Mr. Grega passed away some time back and his son was selling the > plans, but now he has taken them off the market. > > Maybe someone has more information on the matter. > Bob B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Greg Heath > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2007 12:20 AM > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Cost to build your completed Pietenpol and > other questions > > > I just joined the group and am contemplating building a Pietenpol. Those > of you who have completed an aircraft, what final figure did you come up > with for a final monetary cost? I am trying to plan for the budget. > > I also see there are 2 plans available ,one for a Pietenpol and one for a > GN-1. What is the difference between them? > > I am looking for specs. What is the width of the cockpit backseat? ( > Width and legroom length) > > Are there brakes...? (yea, ok, this might be a stupid question, but I > don't know...so I am asking anyway) > > Thanks for any help you can shoot my way... > > > Please respond to my home email at kb2qqm@mac.com > > Thanks.. > > Greg H > Racine, p; Features Subscriptions href=" > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matp; > available via href="http://forums.matronics.com"> > http://forums.matronics.com* > > > * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > * > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:26 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level I had used the water level in construction for years and for the most part they work well as long as somebody doesn't stand on the tube while you are measuring. I like the Lazers but I was setting up my new plane today and I havent used either to this point. The basics need to be in place first. Fuselage perfectly level,Cabane struts straight, lift struts the same length , pin to pin. and wing tips to tail even. Then break out the lazer to fine tune. And lots of patience. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 1:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: cheap, easy, accurate---use a water level I have assisted others with rigging (a biplane as well) wings and other flying surfaces using a length of simple Tygon clear plastic tubing from Home Depot or Lowes filled with water. The water always seeks level and can be used to level your longerons, wings, fuselage, tailfeathers and even your tree house. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:26 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: w/b Does anyone with a long fuse with a Corvair engine have weight balance figures they would be willing to share? I am finishing my Rotec Piet and would like to compare. Please send direct horzpool@goldengate.net Dick N ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:34 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvairs.....Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I can't believe this! The engine ran smooth for 4 hrs, and now it is doing the same thing it did last year, on the old engine. We changed the gasket on the oil pump cover from a .009 in to a .007 in thick gasket. We pulled the distributer out to check the drag on the oil pump gears, and put it back in and re-timed the ignition to 12 btdc. I ran it up tied down to make sure it made full static rpm (3300-3400 rpm)and it did. So I climb in after I untied it and was climbing out for about 2 min and BAMM! Just like last year it started running rough and lost 600-700 rpm at full throttle. After pulling the throttle back it would run smooth at 2900-3000 rpm, but put it back to wide open and it would loose power after about 10-15 seconds. Does anybody have an Idea as to what is going on? I tried it again when I was on the ground and when it started loosing power I gave it a slow shot of primer and it did not rise in rpm, so probably not an induction leak, also tried carb heat (to enrichen the mixture) no help. We have 2 sets of points and coils, switching coils and points made no difference. I dont know if it is cross firing or if a valve is floating, but it seems like it won't act up untill the CHT reaches 340-350 degrees, which is about 100 degrees below red line. Hopefully we can get ahold of William Wynne tomorrow so we can fly this jalopy. The frustrating part is that 80% of this engine is new. Maybe the 20% part is bad? This research and development is getting old, but I'm sure I will learn a boatload if we ever get it figgured out. I GUESS THAT WHY THEY CALL THEM EXPERIMENTAL.....I THINK I WOULD CALL IT TEMPERMENTAL! I'm still going over to Wyncoop tommorow, but I guess I'll take the motercycle. 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