---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/25/07: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:53 AM - Moving wing for W & B (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 06:02 AM - finally ordered some plans... (Oscar Zuniga) 3. 06:07 AM - Hans' award-winning Piet (Oscar Zuniga) 4. 08:06 AM - Tools to start build ? (kb2qqm) 5. 08:40 AM - Re: Tools to start build ? (Phillips, Jack) 6. 09:01 AM - Re: Tools to start build ? (Rick Holland) 7. 09:12 AM - Re: Tools to start build ? (Bill Church) 8. 09:12 AM - Re: Tools to start build ? (HelsperSew@aol.com) 9. 10:06 AM - Re: Hans' award-winning Piet (hvandervoo@aol.com) 10. 10:13 AM - Re: Brodhead (shad bell) 11. 10:14 AM - Re: Hans' award-winning Piet (HelsperSew@aol.com) 12. 10:34 AM - Re: Tools to start build ? (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 13. 10:40 AM - Re: Hans' award-winning Piet (hvandervoo@aol.com) 14. 03:22 PM - Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (shad bell) 15. 04:11 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (Ed G.) 16. 04:57 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 17. 05:11 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (HelsperSew@aol.com) 18. 05:18 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 19. 05:28 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (shad bell) 20. 06:10 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (Rcaprd@aol.com) 21. 06:20 PM - Re: Tools to start build ? (kb2qqm) 22. 07:00 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 23. 07:02 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (Ed G.) 24. 08:26 PM - wing struts (Dick Navratil) 25. 09:10 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (johnwoods@westnet.com.au) 26. 09:50 PM - Re: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles (Javier Cruz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:07 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Moving wing for W & B 41CC has the cabanes angled aft 4" to shift the fuselage forward. I climb into the cockpit by lifting the wing flop section with my head and don't have a problem getting in and out but had not really thought about if it might have been easier with the wing 4" forward. Too much fun flying it to worry about 'what-ifs'. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Who's that on the Red Carpet? Play & win glamorous prizes. http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=REDCARPET_hotmailtextlink3 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:27 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: finally ordered some plans... Greg; It sounds like you're an airline pilot so you probably aren't at your home base much of the time, but if you'll let everyone know where your home base (therefore, your shop) will be, maybe there is someone near you who can collaborate on your project or at least offer tools, materials, and moral support. Not that Piet people need much moral support, but sometimes you stray and need correction or a gentle nudge ;o) Also, since you do spend lots of time in different areas, if you know that you'll be somewhere with enough time to get in touch with somebody on the list, you can arrange to go look at their project. That's always helpful, as well as being inspiring. Just post an email to the list saying where you'll be and asking if there are any builders nearby. And consider this as your invitation to check out NX41CC if you're ever in San Antonio. Just call me at (210) 213-9936 and I'll go pick you up at SAT. Hmmm... FL370... last weekend I spent most of my flight at probably 150' AGL looking for wild pigs and checking on the corn crops growing in the field just over from our airpark. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:05 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hans' award-winning Piet OK, the SWRFI webmaster has posted information and photos of the award winners this year and Hans' airplane is at the top of the list. Congratulations again, Hans! Webpage here: http://www.swrfi.org/awards2007.htm I can't tell from the photo, but it looks like the cabane braces on the airplane are not adjustable for length and the wing may be swung back a little. Perhaps Hans can say. And if I'm not mistaken, the Cub that won Grand Champion Classic was one of the airplanes that flew in with Hans. The SWRFI leadership was disappointed that not one single award winner was there in person to receive their award at the dinner, and halfway jokingly said they might make it "must be present to win". That would never work, of course. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tools to start build ? From: "kb2qqm" Ok, I have been looking back at some of the articles about tools and what is needed. There is some pretty good info. I just don't want to go out and buy top of the line...(even though they are nice!) Miter Saw ? Do I need a compound with laser? or will the cheap sears unit for $69.99 do..(the 7 1/4")? Table saw- What features do I need? Do I even need one, or will a miter saw do. Band Saw...Another cheapie... for $100 or do i need bigger than a 9". Drill Press- TableTop or Floor unit? Do I really need a laser trac ? Sanding machine...belt/disk combo? Our EAA chapter does have allot of this stuff, and it's only about miles away. Problem being that when I have the time, I don't always have time to drive over there...and the riggamorale of dealing with that. What do I need for most of the work? What are the tools I will use the most, building this airplane.. Another question I had... Is there a way to measure the inside ...lets say a rib, between the bottom of the wing rib and the top...along with the angle and distance other than using a tape measure... like measuring twice and then cutting and then it becomes too short... Is there a tool for that ? How is that done. Before I cut up all my spruce. Greg [Shocked] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120518#120518 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Tools to start build ? From: "Phillips, Jack" Greg, Congratulations on taking the plunge to build a Pietenpol! As for which tools to buy, I would say buy all you can afford (it is simply NOT POSSIBLE to own too many tools, although my wife might disagree with that). This has been discussed many times before on this list, but to save you poring through the archives, and to save me from having to do more mundane tasks (like work), here is my list of tools in pretty much order of how frequently they were used to build my Pietenpol: BANDSAW - Mine is a 12" Sears Craftsman with a metal cutting blade. Useful for almost all the cuts in spruce and plywood you will make, plus good for cutting aluminum sheet. BELT SANDER - I have a 6" Delta, with a 9" disc on the side. Almost as necessary as the bandsaw DRILL PRESS - I have a 12" floor model. Doesn't really matter what brand or whether it is floor ot table mount, but be sure it goes slow enough to drill steel (about 500 rpm) METAL CUTTING BANDSAW - I got an ElCheapo 6" bandsaw from Grizzly Tools and it works just fine for all the steel cutting you will need to do.To cut 4130 you need the blade speed to be down to about 80 fpm OXYACETYLENE WELDING RIG - I bought the Smith setup from AS&S and it did a good job. TABLE SAW - there are some jobs that a tablesaw is useful for, particularly if you are making your own capstrips and longerons, rather than buying them milled to size. There are lots of other specialized tools that make life easier when building an airplane, but you can a good job with the list above. You CAN get by with much less - a handsaw, a hacksaw, a set of files, but it will take forever and there is no real point to doing so. Good Luck! Jack Phillips NX89JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kb2qqm Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tools to start build ? Ok, I have been looking back at some of the articles about tools and what is needed. There is some pretty good info. I just don't want to go out and buy top of the line...(even though they are nice!) Miter Saw ? Do I need a compound with laser? or will the cheap sears unit for $69.99 do..(the 7 1/4")? Table saw- What features do I need? Do I even need one, or will a miter saw do. Band Saw...Another cheapie... for $100 or do i need bigger than a 9". Drill Press- TableTop or Floor unit? Do I really need a laser trac ? Sanding machine...belt/disk combo? Our EAA chapter does have allot of this stuff, and it's only about miles away. Problem being that when I have the time, I don't always have time to drive over there...and the riggamorale of dealing with that. What do I need for most of the work? What are the tools I will use the most, building this airplane.. Another question I had... Is there a way to measure the inside ...lets say a rib, between the bottom of the wing rib and the top...along with the angle and distance other than using a tape measure... like measuring twice and then cutting and then it becomes too short... Is there a tool for that ? How is that done. Before I cut up all my spruce. Greg [Shocked] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120518#120518 _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:10 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tools to start build ? > > > Ok, I have been looking back at some of the articles about tools and what > is needed. There is some pretty good info. I just don't want to go out and > buy top of the line...(even though they are nice!) > > Miter Saw ? Do I need a compound with laser? or will the cheap sears > unit for $69.99 do..(the 7 1/4")? Yes, medium cheap is ok, don't need any high tech features. Table saw- What features do I need? Do I even need one, or will a miter saw > do. When it comes time to rip a 14 foot piece of leading edge stock you will want a table saw, no special features, just a fence. Band Saw...Another cheapie... for $100 or do i need bigger than a 9". Have a $99 wood band saw. Next question is what will you cut steel with? (And you will cut a lot of it). The cheap and space saving way is to get an angle grinder for $39 using the thin 1/8" x 5" blades. The other way to go is to get a separate metal band saw. Some people also have steel miter saws which aren't too expensive (which is just a big angle grinder that pivots on a platform). Drill Press- TableTop or Floor unit? Do I really need a laser trac ? A benchtop $99 drill press is all I have needed. Sanding machine...belt/disk combo? Yes a belt/disk combo, you will use it all the time with steel and wood, and they are cheap. Our EAA chapter does have allot of this stuff, and it's only about miles > away. Problem being that when I have the time, I don't always have time to > drive over there...and the riggamorale of dealing with that. > > What do I need for most of the work? What are the tools I will use the > most, building this airplane.. Tools I use the most are my cordless drill, 6" bench grinder, miter saw and belt/disk sander. The other thing to think about is welding equipment. I figured that I would farm out all my welding figuring it would be too much to learn but I talked myself in taking a welding class at a local community college. Very glad I did, its a wood airplane but I believe I have spent as much time fabricating and welding steel and aluminum as I have cutting/sanding and gluing wood. I would have spent half my time driving parts over to a welder to weld and re-weld if I couldn't do it myself. Plus its one of the best things I have learned on my Piet project (I ended up getting a Tig welder). Another question I had... Is there a way to measure the inside ...lets say > a rib, between the bottom of the wing rib and the top...along with the angle > and distance other than using a tape measure... like measuring twice and > then cutting and then it becomes too short... Is there a tool for that > ? How is that done. Before I cut up all my spruce. You are talking about pre-cutting your spruce capstrip pieces for your ribs I assume. I cut mine a tiny bit long measuring with a steel ruler and then sand the piece to fit with my handy belt/disc sander, I never try to cut the wood to fit directly (same with steel). Greg > > [Shocked] > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120518#120518 > > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Tools to start build ? From: "Bill Church" Greg, I haven't finished my woodwork yet. Actually, all I have completed so far is my ribs, so I can't say what tools will prove to be the most valuable overall. But I can tell you what I have found to be useful so far. (By the way, you don't need to buy all the tools for the whole job all at once before you start - just buy them as you need them). Anyway, here's my take on things: A miter saw would be handy when cutting the fuselage cross braces, but not really necessary if you've got a miterbox (or even a handsaw and a good eye - also see below re: belt/disc combo sander). Laser schmaser. I bought rough Sitka planks, so a table saw was needed in my case. If you're going to buy pre-cut stock (i.e. from Aircraft Spruce or Wicks, etc) then you probably won't even need a table saw. I already had a saw, which I use all the time. The table saw will come in handy cutting plywood gussets, etc. but you should be able to get by without one... unless you subconciously desire to have a table saw, and figure this is the reason you need to justify the purchase of one... A band saw will be invaluable to cut the steel parts (from what I've read) - I haven't made the fittings yet, and I also have access to a metal fabricating shop, so I don't have a band saw. A drill press is always helpful for drilling true holes, but not absolutely necessary. Don't forget the first Pietenpols (and many since) were likely all built with hand tools. A belt/disc combo sander is a very valuable tool for this project. It has been the best value, tool-wise so far. Actually, it's the only tool that I have bought specifically for this project. It makes the job of mitering all those rib pieces a breeze. I made up one "master set" of rib pieces, which I then used as a template to mark all the other pieces. Then I just used the disc to trim to the exact length and angle. Pictures can be found here: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=11 5 6&PlaneID=510&FName=Bill&LName=Church&PlaneName=Air%20Camper My tools are all out in my garage. If I had to drive to a shop somewhere else, I don't know how far along I would be. I would think that building at home (if possible) is the only way to go. You can go work for twenty minutes and actually get twenty minutes of work done. If you're ten minutes drive from your shop, twenty minutes will just get you there and back, with no work done. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:54 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tools to start build ? Greg, Band Saw: I wrote an article titled "A poor man's metal-cutting band saw" for our EAA chapter newsletter. Here is a link to the web sight. Look under "newsletters" and look at the May '06 newsletter. _www.eaa1414.org_ (http://www.eaa1414.org) . Also, if you look at the "gallery" section, there are some pics of my project there. I have found one tool to be indispensable. It is a pneumatic hand-held narrow belt sander (3/8" wide belt) that I got from Grainger. You might try looking at Harbor Freight for a cheaper model. I use it every single day to sand something. You can get into very tight places with it. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hans' award-winning Piet From: hvandervoo@aol.com Thanks Oscar, The=C2- Cabanes lean back about 2" And the braces are adjustabled, 3/8" tubing with AN 490 treated rod end and a AN 486 Fork, top side is flattened with hole. This was originally a temporary solution, Intended to be replaced by a tube with ends fattened. Just to much fun flying. Hans -----Original Message----- From: Oscar Zuniga Sent: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 8:06 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hans' award-winning Piet =C2- =C2- OK, the SWRFI webmaster has posted information and photos of the award winne rs this year and Hans' airplane is at the top of the list. Congratulations a gain, Hans! Webpage here:=C2- =C2- http://www.swrfi.org/awards2007.htm=C2- =C2- I can't tell from the photo, but it looks like the cabane braces on the airp lane are not adjustable for length and the wing may be swung back a little. Perhaps Hans can say.=C2- =C2- And if I'm not mistaken, the Cub that won Grand Champion Classic was one of the airplanes that flew in with Hans. The SWRFI leadership was disappointed that not one single award winner was there in person to receive their award at the dinner, and halfway jokingly said they might make it "must be present to win". That would never work, of course.=C2- =C2- Oscar Zuniga=C2- San Antonio, TX=C2- mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com=C2- website at http://www.flysquirrel.net=C2- =C2- _________________________________________________________________=C2- Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live .com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-1 17.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863& encType=1&FORM=MGAC01=C2- =C2- ============C2- ============C2- ============C2- =C2- =C2- ________________________________________________________________________ AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:07 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Don, Are you leaving on thursday morning, or making it a 2 day flight? I think we will leave friday a.m. and hopefully get there friday late afternoon. We still have some engine problems we are working out, but if we solve them all and the weather permits we will have 92GB there. We are looking forward to seeing all the piets and piet folks there in 4 weeks. Shad --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:03 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hans' award-winning Piet Hans, Beautifully made airplane! How much higher than plans did you make your cabanes? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:37 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tools to start build ? For what its worth, I started with rough cut plank lumber and ripped everything I needed for the fuse. I got the Ryobi table saw, compound miter and router with the basic tooling to do most everything. I also have a circular saw and 2 hand held jig saws a couple of drills and assorted bits, orbital and belt sanders. I also have an assortment of hand tools for wood working. I have an oxyacetylene rig, arc welding machine and a compressor with assorted air tools. If I had any skill I would be in business! John ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hans' award-winning Piet From: hvandervoo@aol.com Dan, Thanks. The cabanes are 2" taller than plans. Hans -----Original Message----- From: HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:13 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hans' award-winning Piet Hans, =C2- Beautifully made airplane!=C2- How much higher than plans did you make you r cabanes? =C2- Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. See what's free at AOL.com. -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List -======================== -= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================== ________________________________________________________________________ AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:26 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles Hello guys, Today we tried readjusting the valves ala Clarks Corvair tech tip. This is done with the valve cover off, and engine idling. You loosen the rocker arm nut untill it clatters, and then tighten untill it stops clatering and then tighten one half turn. Some were adjusted down to tight, but the problem remains. It still gets to 350-400 cht and then goes from 3200 RPMat full throttle down to 2600-2700 rmp and souns rough. Might be detonation, or preignition, but probably going to pull both heads to find out why. They just had a valve job done on them while Dad rebuilt the engine. Fuel is 100LL so not sure it would be detonating, it seems to be running on the rich side, plus enriching the mixture with carb heat or shot of primer does not help the symtoms. It's looking like Making Brodhead is a pipe dream at this point. It's getting pretty discourging at this point, but gotta keep trying, As my dear ole Dad always said..."Rome wasn't built in a day" . Shad --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:51 PM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles Hi Chad..Are you running forged pistons in your Corvair? Forged pistons are much more dense than cast pistons and therefore expand much more than cast pistons due to thermal expansion. I have built several racing engines with forged pistons and the Mfg. recommended a minimum of .005" clearance for the forged piston while the clearance for stock camground cast pistons is .0015" . And that's in a water cooled engine. This clearance is normally built into the piston size but if you did any oversizing of the cylinders the machinist would have needed to know that the extra clearance was needed. and even if you didn't the clearances may have needed to be checked and adjusted by rigid honeing because piston sizes out of the box can vary and car engines don't see the continuous heavy load that they see in an airplane engine. Also, do all Corvair rods have oil squirt holes in the connecting rods? ( I've never built a Corvair) The squirt holes direct a stream of cooling oil at the underside of the piston crown to cool the pistons. If your rods don't have squirt holes or are installed up side down this would aggrevate the problem. If your engine runs fine until the cylinder temps get high this is something else to consider. The pistons expanding against the cylinders would cause excess friction which would raise your oil temps. Also are you using approved size and shape cooling shrouds? they keep the cylinder temps down. Just some more things to consider. Hope this hasn't already been covered by the listers...Ed Grentzer ----- Original Message ----- From: shad bell To: Pietenpol Discussion Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 6:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles Hello guys, Today we tried readjusting the valves ala Clarks Corvair tech tip. This is done with the valve cover off, and engine idling. You loosen the rocker arm nut untill it clatters, and then tighten untill it stops clatering and then tighten one half turn. Some were adjusted down to tight, but the problem remains. It still gets to 350-400 cht and then goes from 3200 RPMat full throttle down to 2600-2700 rmp and souns rough. Might be detonation, or preignition, but probably going to pull both heads to find out why. They just had a valve job done on them while Dad rebuilt the engine. Fuel is 100LL so not sure it would be detonating, it seems to be running on the rich side, plus enriching the mixture with carb heat or shot of primer does not help the symtoms. It's looking like Making Brodhead is a pipe dream at this point. It's getting pretty discourging at this point, but gotta keep trying, As my dear ole Dad always said..."Rome wasn't built in a day" . Shad ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:40 PM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles What happens if you pull back on the power? Does it smooth out? What happens to oil pressure when it goes from smooth running to rough? I'm thinking maybe a lifter bore is scarred, and when the oil thins it allows the lifter to bleed down. Then it's running on 5.5 cylinders, making less power, less smooth, and less RPM. You've tried riching the mixture, and carb heat with no change. Sounds like that rules out fuel starvation. It always seems to happen when the CHT gets on up there. Could be something "growing" and binding I guess. Maybe a valve guide too tight? Are they steel guides, or bronze? Steel are more apt to gall than bronze. Could the coil be getting hot? Have you swapped another coil? Could it be vapor lock? I'm sure you've thought about all these possibilities. Have you been able to reach WW? ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:51 PM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles Shad, I have no advise for you because I am not knowledgeable. The only thing I can offer is some encouragement. I am sure if you keep trying, you and your dad will find the answer, as it is surely out there somewhere if you keep trying. I am sure all who read your posts are feeling the same gut-wrenching that you are. Keep trying and you will find the answer. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:46 PM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles How far are you from WW or some other Corvair powered aircraft? Maybe there is a engine you could install on your airframe for R&D? If it does it with another engine, then you have an issue with your fuel supply...I know this is extreme, but how hard could it be to swap engines for an hour of flying/testing? Have you ever had a Corvair engine on this airframe that ran like it should? Sorry, I haven't read all the pertinent posts on this subject... ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:55 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles Pulling back the power smoothes it out. Then when running back to wide open it runs up to full static rpm (3200) and then runs rough after 10-15 seconds, then pull back to 2000 rpm and all is well again. I think it is in the heads. A valve guide too tight, or maybe a valve seat is moving around. Maybe somebody feed it after midnight and it turned into a gremlin, might be just as likely at this point. The coils (2 of them) are mounted behind the firewall so they stay cool. They can be swapped inflight with a toggle switch, it has a MSD racing coil switcher, and a dual points, distributer. Only one is on at a time, the other is for redundency, but switching one to the other makes no difference. Shad RAMPEYBOY@aol.com wrote: What happens if you pull back on the power? Does it smooth out? What happens to oil pressure when it goes from smooth running to rough? I'm thinking maybe a lifter bore is scarred, and when the oil thins it allows the lifter to bleed down. Then it's running on 5.5 cylinders, making less power, less smooth, and less RPM. You've tried riching the mixture, and carb heat with no change. Sounds like that rules out fuel starvation. It always seems to happen when the CHT gets on up there. Could be something "growing" and binding I guess. Maybe a valve guide too tight? Are they steel guides, or bronze? Steel are more apt to gall than bronze. Could the coil be getting hot? Have you swapped another coil? Could it be vapor lock? I'm sure you've thought about all these possibilities. Have you been able to reach WW? --------------------------------- See what's free at AOL.com. --------------------------------- Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:08 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles In a message dated 6/25/2007 7:30:06 PM Central Daylight Time, aviatorbell@yahoo.com writes: Pulling back the power smoothes it out. Then when running back to wide open it runs up to full static rpm (3200) and then runs rough after 10-15 seconds , then pull back to 2000 rpm and all is well again. Shad, It sure sounds like fuel starvation. I've never seen the typical head temperature on Corvairs, but 350=BA - 400=BA sure seems high. What do you o ther Corvair Flyers get for head temp ? Maybe the eyebrows leak too much, or are n't big enough. I don't think my Continental ever gets much over 300=BA - 325=BA... but then again these A65's are known for running too cool. My oil temp hardly ever gets over 150=BA. I know how frustrating challenges like this can be, but k eep after it, and you'll figure it out. Chuck G. NX770CG ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com .. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:30 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tools to start build ? From: "kb2qqm" Thanks for all the great ideas on the Tools. I just found a fellow EAA'er who said he would teach me to TIG weld. And He said I welcome to use his machine anytime after that. [Laughing] I went over to sears to drool over all the tools, but walked out empty handed. Too much to think about. gotta read first.. One thing I read in the plans booklet... said that the back seat pilots rudder bar is preferred over "pedals", because the pedals put too much force on the leading edge of the rudder. I don't understand that.. Does he mean with both feet on the rudder pedals you are pulling on each wire and overstressing the rudder frame..? any ideas? Never used a rudder bar..but I guess I will learn. Thanks to all those that responded here and via home email. Much appreciated. Now I understand why everyone says this is like "family" Greg Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120623#120623 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:08 PM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles I agree. One thought is the fuel bowl starts out full. After 10 -15seconds, it begins to run empty. You pull back on the power, and the amount of air/fuel being pull in decreases. The bowl fills back up, allowing another 10-15 seconds. Have you done a fuel flow test of your system? Level the plane put the fuel line into a container, and see how much drains in 60 seconds. This should give you an idea of GPH. Assuming the corvair burns 6GPH, I think it's recommended to have 1.5 times the fuel burn. So you need 9GPH flow? I assume this is a gravity feed fuel system, with the normal header in the center section? Also, make sure no lines are crimped, or twisting allowing a restriction. What type fuel vent? Does it require any "head pressure" to perform properly? Any litter critters crawled in the vent restricting it? Something floating around in the tank, blocking the drain? Just ideas! ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:51 PM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles Hi Chad...Again I apologize for not following this whole string. I agree with Chuck and others that it sounds like fuel starvation but if you have checked that, have you experimented with your secondary ignition system? espeacially spark plugs. I'm assuming that you're running solid core wires. What brand, heat range and gap are you running for plugs? I would guess about a .030 gap and a couple heat ranges colder plug than used in the cars, assuming you're running automotive plugs. I'm sure W. W. has that all figured out. As cylinder temperatures rise the resistance across the plug gap increases. If the plugs are too hot of a heat range the porcelans will break down ( minute cracks) which will run okay at lower temps and thottle settings but as the temps and resistance increase they will short through the porcelans and missfire. I have run into this with high performance engines espeacially high compression ones. Champion plugs seem to be by far the worst offenders. The increase in resistance across the plugs can even cause wires to short through their insulation to ground if the wires are toughing metal. And if there are any carbon tracks or moist dust inside the distributor cap the higher resistance can cause the spark to jump inside the cap instead of across the plugs. Are you running a vacume advance on your distributor? If so, does the breaker plate have a ground wire and good primary wires and connections. Have you checked what you're full spark advance is in degrees. Just some things to check. Sometimes it's the simplest things that get you. Just trying to help...Ed G.--- Original Message ----- From: shad bell To: Pietenpol Discussion Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 6:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles Hello guys, Today we tried readjusting the valves ala Clarks Corvair tech tip. This is done with the valve cover off, and engine idling. You loosen the rocker arm nut untill it clatters, and then tighten untill it stops clatering and then tighten one half turn. Some were adjusted down to tight, but the problem remains. It still gets to 350-400 cht and then goes from 3200 RPMat full throttle down to 2600-2700 rmp and souns rough. Might be detonation, or preignition, but probably going to pull both heads to find out why. They just had a valve job done on them while Dad rebuilt the engine. Fuel is 100LL so not sure it would be detonating, it seems to be running on the rich side, plus enriching the mixture with carb heat or shot of primer does not help the symtoms. It's looking like Making Brodhead is a pipe dream at this point. It's getting pretty discourging at this point, but gotta keep trying, As my dear ole Dad always said..."Rome wasn't built in a day" . Shad ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:54 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing struts After the discussion the last couple of days on w/b and struts, I started looking thru ACS and Wicks at their struts. I figured by changing to aluminum wing struts I can save approx 18 lb. over the J-3 struts. It's very tempting to finish tuning the wings and install aluminum struts and skip the turnbuckles. On my other Piet I haven't re-tuned the rig in the last 3 yrs. It flies so nice, I hate to mess with anything. The biggest problem I see in changing struts is having to take it to a welder for re-enforcing washers. Any thoughts welcome. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:56 PM PST US From: johnwoods@westnet.com.au Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles Shad, Have you tried posting you problem on Corvaircraft? The likes of Mark Langford and others may be able to offer advice. http://mylist.net/listinfo/corvaircraft corvaircraft@mylist.net. JohnW ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:06 PM PST US From: Javier Cruz Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles HI friends Shad My piet still is not flying,but, maybe this can help you a little, on the break in of my engine i have been using a deposit maybe 10 inches above of the carburator (ma3spa) feeding it by gravity, i had almost the same problems at full power, raising the deposit the engine ran better, i got a little electrical gas pump (4-6 psi) and with the gas tank on the floor all was ok, the engine is not running static at 3200 like yours , just 3000 rpm. Is more cheap to buy a little pump that begin check the other expensive items... I really hope that you can resolve that problem. Javier Cruz PD congratulations Hans From: Rcaprd@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Still trying to figure out corvair troubles In a message dated 6/25/2007 7:30:06 PM Central Daylight Time, aviatorbell@yahoo.com writes: Pulling back the power smoothes it out. Then when running back to wide open it runs up to full static rpm (3200) and then runs rough after 10-15 seconds, then pull back to 2000 rpm and all is well again. Shad, It sure sounds like fuel starvation. I've never seen the typical head temperature on Corvairs, but 350=BA - 400=BA sure seems high. What do you other Corvair Flyers get for head temp ? Maybe the eyebrows leak too much, or aren't big enough. I don't think my Continental ever gets much over 300=BA - 325=BA...but then again these A65's are known for running too cool. My oil temp hardly ever gets over 150=BA. I know how frustrating challenges like this can be, but keep after it, and you'll figure it out. Chuck G. 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