Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:44 AM - Gorilla Glue- NOT! (Oscar Zuniga)
2. 09:15 AM - Re: Adhesive comparison test results (Steve Ruse)
3. 09:43 AM - Re: Gorilla Glue- NOT! (jimboyer@hughes.net)
4. 10:37 AM - Re: Gorilla Glue- NOT! (Eric Williams)
5. 11:02 AM - Re: Adhesive comparison test results (Phillips, Jack)
6. 11:36 AM - Re: Adhesive comparison test results (Gordon Bowen)
7. 12:57 PM - Adhesives article (Gordon Bowen)
8. 01:16 PM - Re: Adhesives article (Jack T. Textor)
9. 01:46 PM - Re: Adhesives article (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
10. 01:53 PM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/14/07 (Bill Weir)
11. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: Adhesives article (Gordon Bowen)
12. 03:13 PM - Re: *****SPAM***** Adhesives article (Glenn W. Thomas)
13. 04:25 PM - Re: Adhesive comparison test results (Gary Gower)
14. 04:44 PM - Re: Adhesives article (Greg Chapman)
15. 06:09 PM - Re: Adhesives article (Gordon Bowen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Gorilla Glue- NOT! |
I guess the link to the glue comparison doesn't come through on the digest,
so could someone please send it to me directly so I can see the study
results? I was thinking of using Gorilla Glue on a small boat project for
my grandsons (the "One Sheet Skiff", at
http://www3.sympatico.ca/herbert.mcleod/skiff.htm ) and want to see what
they say about it.
Thanks.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Adhesive comparison test results |
All this talk about glue has gotten me curious about the durability of
various glue joints over time, which is every bit as important as the
initial strength. Does anyone have any data on how different glues
(particularly Resorcinol and T-88) maintain their strength over time?
The initial strength is important, but if one adhesive loses 40% of
its strength over 30 years while one only loses 10%, that is a
significant thing to consider. I seem to remember reading somewhere
that some glues will lose up to 40% of their strength with time.
Steve Ruse
Norman, OK
Quoting Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>:
> I've got that article and it's written for the general woodworking community.
> Definitely not with either airplane or boat building in mind.
>
> The one thing confirmed for me is NOT to use Gorilla glue.
>
> Clif
>
>
> I guess the redeeming value in the article (although I will read
> it more closely later) is while there is not an advantage to using
> slowset epoxy, there is also no disadvantage (for those of us who
> used T-88). Is the article written with moisture and common
> aircraft application in mind? Thanks for sharing the info. It's
> interesting to read about things like this.
>
> Glenn W. Thomas
> Storrs, CT
> http://www.flyingwood.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> 8/13/2007 10:15 AM
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Gorilla Glue- NOT! |
Hi Oscar,
Gorilla glue is very strong but it foams up when you join the two
pieces together and the clean up is messy. I would not use anything but
Titebond III as its is much easier to clean up and is a PVA type 1
glue. I use Titebond III for all my wood working (furniture) projects
and have used T-88 for everything on the Piet.
Cheers, Jim
Message 4
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| Subject: | Gorilla Glue- NOT! |
Oscar,
I am building a boat and mine is a skiff too but larger. It's a Glen-L
design of stitch and glue construction. I have thus far used epoxy mixed
with silica and micro ballons for the glue as they recommend but it can be a
pain to mix that up every time. I have just started to use PL Premium
adhesive on a few parts and so far it's great. Here's a link:
http://www.stickwithpl.com/Products/detail.asp?PLProductID=14
It's available at Home Depot and was $3.50 a tube a couple years ago when I
last bought it. Might be more now. Supposedly it's comparable to 3M 5200
marine adhesive but much cheaper. I had to remove one part on my transom
that I had glued with the PL and man it was tenacious. I had to grind and
cut through it and the wood. There was no separation along the glue joint
at all.
If you do want to go the epoxy route, Glen-L offers a pre-thickened epoxy
glue that you mix in a 1:1 ratio called Poxy-Grip. Link here:
https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=287
I'm thinking of buying some of this to finish my boat with and avoiding
having to add the silica and micro.
Eric
>From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gorilla Glue- NOT!
>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 07:44:25 -0500
>
><taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
>I guess the link to the glue comparison doesn't come through on the digest,
>so could someone please send it to me directly so I can see the study
>results? I was thinking of using Gorilla Glue on a small boat project for
>my grandsons (the "One Sheet Skiff", at
>http://www3.sympatico.ca/herbert.mcleod/skiff.htm ) and want to see what
>they say about it.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Oscar Zuniga
>Air Camper NX41CC
>San Antonio, TX
>mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Adhesive comparison test results |
As someone else said, it would be interesting to see a similar test run
with consideration for long term exposure to UV and humidity.
Interesting that Resorcinol wasn't even tested when it is still the ONLY
glue the FAA has approved for use on certificated aircraft. Don't boil
your airplane without it!
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
GlennThomas@flyingwood.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adhesive comparison test results
I guess the redeeming value in the article (although I will read it more
closely later) is while there is not an advantage to using slowset
epoxy, there is also no disadvantage (for those of us who used T-88).
Is the article written with moisture and common aircraft application in
mind? Thanks for sharing the info. It's interesting to read about
things like this.
Glenn W. Thomas
Storrs, CT
http://www.flyingwood.com
_________________________________________________
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Adhesive comparison test results |
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| Subject: | Adhesives article |
Not sure why previous post didn't come out right, so I rewrite my
comments. I spent over 30 years as manager and chemist in the epoxy and
urethane industry, Burt Rutan used only our epoxies on his fiberglass
designs for over 25 years. Couple comments bout the article about wood
glues, a) not all epoxies are formulated the same, actually there's
probably over 300 in my notebooks alone, and I guess thousands out there
in the formulation industry. Wood application epoxies are a special
breed. They have to penetrate the wood fibers for physical bonding, but
also chemically bond with the resins and H2O in the wood, to be
effective. b.) different epoxies have different resist to weathering
and aging ie. UV and oxidation. c.) different epoxies have differing
amounts of thermplastic creep under sheer loads. Boston's Big Dig roof
collapes found this out the hard way. They used accidentally the wrong
epoxy formula to bond the bolts holding up the roof panels to the rock
tunnel walls, under loaded sheer stress the epoxy creeped (flowed even
when completely hardened) and the bolt bond failed. Epoxies used for
homebuilt wood boats and aircraft are special, don't fool around, use
only stuff known and tested for the application, ie. T-88, West Systems,
System 3, Hexcel's, etc, all available from Airspruce or Wicks. If
unsure contact the manufacturers tech service toll free call lines or
their websites. The glue holding your wood plane together is your
cheapest investment in the homebuilt but probably the most important,
considering the metal parts are about 80% of the cost. Glues can
fatigue just like metals or "flow" (creep) under stress loads. Setting
on the flightline or in the hanger the glue is under stress just holding
up the wings or holding the plane together. The article posted is for
wood workers making furniture etc., and is very superficial in data.
Gordon
Message 8
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| Subject: | Adhesives article |
Thanks for the good information Gordon!
Jack Textor
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon
Bowen
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:56 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adhesives article
Not sure why previous post didn't come out right, so I rewrite my
comments. I spent over 30 years as manager and chemist in the epoxy and
urethane industry, Burt Rutan used only our epoxies on his fiberglass
designs for over 25 years. Couple comments bout the article about wood
glues, a) not all epoxies are formulated the same, actually there's
probably over 300 in my notebooks alone, and I guess thousands out there
in the formulation industry. Wood application epoxies are a special
breed. They have to penetrate the wood fibers for physical bonding, but
also chemically bond with the resins and H2O in the wood, to be
effective. b.) different epoxies have different resist to weathering
and aging ie. UV and oxidation. c.) different epoxies have differing
amounts of thermplastic creep under sheer loads. Boston's Big Dig roof
collapes found this out the hard way. They used accidentally the wrong
epoxy formula to bond the bolts holding up the roof panels to the rock
tunnel walls, under loaded sheer stress the epoxy creeped (flowed even
when completely hardened) and the bolt bond failed. Epoxies used for
homebuilt wood boats and aircraft are special, don't fool around, use
only stuff known and tested for the application, ie. T-88, West Systems,
System 3, Hexcel's, etc, all available from Airspruce or Wicks. If
unsure contact the manufacturers tech service toll free call lines or
their websites. The glue holding your wood plane together is your
cheapest investment in the homebuilt but probably the most important,
considering the metal parts are about 80% of the cost. Glues can
fatigue just like metals or "flow" (creep) under stress loads. Setting
on the flightline or in the hanger the glue is under stress just holding
up the wings or holding the plane together. The article posted is for
wood workers making furniture etc., and is very superficial in data.
Gordon
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Adhesives article |
Having posted the article, I have to say that Gordon's post is really
reassuring. The way it turns out a friend of mine is a furniture maker and swears
by the Titebond products, actually suggested on several occasions that I build
using Titebond III as an alternative to the epoxy's.
I resisted the temptation to go cheep and went the West Systems epoxy, which
I have been extremely happy working with for several reasons, primarily the
mix pump system of a uniform batch every time. After reading the comparison
chart I was again tempted to use the Titebond III product on some of the non
structural parts for no particular reason other than ease of no having to mix a
batch of system 3 epoxy.
>From Gordon's perspective and background I made the right choice to resist
the temptation of cheep and easy and remain with the tried and true proven
system of meter mix and apply. For the record I always leave the project for the
recommended set and cure time of 24 hours. Nothing like making a good choice.
Gordon thanks again for shedding some much needed light on a topic that I
have pondered and read about for quite some time and until reading your opinion
would have considered the Titebond product.
John Recine
Pietenpol air camper, build it like your life depends on it!
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/14/07 |
Please, whoever it was, would you send that message with the instructions re
using electrical clamps to hold wires while nicoing them. I had it and I
accidently deleted it, and I want it.
Thanks.
Bill Weir
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Adhesives article |
You guys are welcome. Been posting to the Rutanesque homebuilder
webgroup for some time about these issues. Couple of handling tips
about epoxies. 1) they never reach 100% full cure, but tend to max out
when given time 30 days min., at 77F. The can be post cured up to about
150F to reach 100% crosslinking, therefore eliminate deformation on hot
days on flightline. But the plane is an entire system, so the epoxy is
only part of the solution and problem., 2) if you have problems with gap
filling and/or runouts of the glue, use microballons to "bulk-up" and
then a pinch of cotton flox or silica to eliminate sag of the glue
before curing. The flox and silica are thixotropes, kinda like long
fibers under a microscope, this gives thickening without much bulk, and
some added bonding strength. The microballons are jus little round
balls, they just give lighter bulkier bonds without thickening. The
glue has to be runny enough to saturate the wood fibers but thickened
enough to not run-out to much. T-88 is chemically thickened, that's why
most people like it. But you can use a runny West System or Hexcel or
mfgers stuff and thicken it yourself cheaply. Flox, ballons and silica
are all available from Aspruce or Wicks. Lastly- keep the mix ratio
required by the mfger right on the money. Don't guess or estimate. Any
excess epoxy or curative is just a waste and lessens the overall
physical properties of the mixed system. I use a cheap postal scale
that has grams and oz's. If you decide to use the dispensing pumps
available from some mfgers, make very sure the nozzles are clean. These
pumps are only accurate when the nozzles are keep clean of residue. The
hardener has a tendency to get plugged up due to the amines in the
hardener reacting with the moisture in the air. Hope this helpful, and
not preachy.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: AMsafetyC@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adhesives article
Having posted the article, I have to say that Gordon's post is really
reassuring. The way it turns out a friend of mine is a furniture maker
and swears by the Titebond products, actually suggested on several
occasions that I build using Titebond III as an alternative to the
epoxy's.
I resisted the temptation to go cheep and went the West Systems epoxy,
which I have been extremely happy working with for several reasons,
primarily the mix pump system of a uniform batch every time. After
reading the comparison chart I was again tempted to use the Titebond III
product on some of the non structural parts for no particular reason
other than ease of no having to mix a batch of system 3 epoxy.
From Gordon's perspective and background I made the right choice to
resist the temptation of cheep and easy and remain with the tried and
true proven system of meter mix and apply. For the record I always leave
the project for the recommended set and cure time of 24 hours. Nothing
like making a good choice.
Gordon thanks again for shedding some much needed light on a topic
that I have pondered and read about for quite some time and until
reading your opinion would have considered the Titebond product.
John Recine
Pietenpol air camper, build it like your life depends on it!
AOL.com.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Adhesives article |
Gordon,
Without the technical detail I had many of the same suspicions and was
happy to hear you provide some reasoning to support my hunch.
Thanks!
Message 13
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| Subject: | Adhesive comparison test results |
Lets remember that previous to boiling our airplane, we need to cover all the wood
and glue joints with a very tough poliuretane or epoxy barnish... (The best
we can find)... Kind of encapsulate (sp?) it.
Also that the structural joints (fuselage with wings, landing gear, tail feathers,
etc.) have cromoly plates that are hold with AN bolts and nuts, this
are several times more structural resistant that the better Spruce or glue we
can find...
I think (just joking) that even with plain white wood & paper glue (Fisherman
brand:-) the plane might never come apart :-) :-) So no need to preflight boil
our plane before every flight day :-) :-)
(Back to serious) I am sure that Titebond II or the newer (to me) Titebond III
will hold any wooden airplane as much as I (we) fly the rest of our life...
I am sure that all our airplanes are hangared when not flying, as long as we can
pay the hangar dues. A bonus against UV an far less humidity damage.
For my learning process: I have read for years that the older airplanes (30's or
older) were glued for years with casein glue, the same glue that still hold
several furniture my Grandpa made... a great glue for its time.
Someone of you know if there is still any Piet or Jenny or. any airplane.. of that
time era flying that was built using Casein glue?
The "Last Original", I think, has to be a newer one (from the 60's), probably glued
with Resorcinol... But sure previous to epoxy or any newer glue.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
Titebond II (and future III) Test pilot :-)
Do not archive.
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> wrote: As someone else
said, it would be interesting to see a similar test run with consideration
for long term exposure to UV and humidity. Interesting that Resorcinol wasn't
even tested when it is still the ONLY glue the FAA has approved for use on
certificated aircraft. Don't boil your airplane without it!
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
---------------------------------
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GlennThomas@flyingwood.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adhesive comparison test results
I guess the redeeming value in the article (although I will read it more closely
later) is while there is not an advantage to using slowset epoxy, there is
also no disadvantage (for those of us who used T-88). Is the article written
with moisture and common aircraft application in mind? Thanks for sharing
the info. It's interesting to read about things like this.
Glenn W. Thomas
Storrs, CT
http://www.flyingwood.com
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com
_________________________________________________
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
- Portuguese
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tool.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Adhesives article |
The only thing that throws me with the TiteBond type glues is joint slippage
on a flat plane under tension. All these glues do have slippage and some are
worse than others. The easiest way to get them to slip is put them under
tension and let them get warm. A guitar neck is an excellent example. Over
the course of 30 years, neck warpage occurs as a result of 2200 lbs pressure
at room temp causing the fingerboard joint to slip on the underlying neck.
It's the primary reason that most guitar necks have a truss rod built in.
I'll grant that all the glues tested are sensitive to strain and heat (and
even humidity in some cases) but it's a big problem for hide and white
glues.
The particular place on an airplane where this slippage seems most likely to
occur is on the scarf joint of a two piece spar.
Opinions?
Greg Chapman
http://www.mousetrax.com
http://www.layer1wireless.com
"Don't start with me or I'll
replace you with a small and
efficient script!"
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AMsafetyC@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adhesives article
Having posted the article, I have to say that Gordon's post is really
reassuring. The way it turns out a friend of mine is a furniture maker and
swears by the Titebond products, actually suggested on several occasions
that I build using Titebond III as an alternative to the epoxy's.
I resisted the temptation to go cheep and went the West Systems epoxy, which
I have been extremely happy working with for several reasons, primarily the
mix pump system of a uniform batch every time. After reading the comparison
chart I was again tempted to use the Titebond III product on some of the non
structural parts for no particular reason other than ease of no having to
mix a batch of system 3 epoxy.
>From Gordon's perspective and background I made the right choice to resist
the temptation of cheep and easy and remain with the tried and true proven
system of meter mix and apply. For the record I always leave the project for
the recommended set and cure time of 24 hours. Nothing like making a good
choice.
Gordon thanks again for shedding some much needed light on a topic that I
have pondered and read about for quite some time and until reading your
opinion would have considered the Titebond product.
John Recine
Pietenpol air camper, build it like your life depends on it!
AOL.com.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Adhesives article |
You have just perfectly decribed shear stress and thermoplastic flow of
a apparent thermoset resin. The adhesive is very slowly flowing to
relieve the strain and as the temp rises with the adhesive under shear
strain the adhesive flows faster to relieve the strain, thus bond
failure. A formlator chemist would change the formula to increase the
amount of chemical cross-linking at room temp and then post cure the
mixed resin laminate to a temp about 15F above the highest temp it would
see in it's application. The laminate would still creep but not until
the laminate saw a temp about 25F above the post temp. Below this post
cure temp there would be no creep, the resin would truely be thermoset.
The formula that gave higher amounts of crosslinking would also produce
more exothermic reaction at room temp, therefore the laminate would
creep less due to this increase of reaction temp. Problem with higher
amount of crosslinking is also shorter pot life.
Gordon
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Chapman
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adhesives article
The only thing that throws me with the TiteBond type glues is joint
slippage on a flat plane under tension. All these glues do have slippage
and some are worse than others. The easiest way to get them to slip is
put them under tension and let them get warm. A guitar neck is an
excellent example. Over the course of 30 years, neck warpage occurs as a
result of 2200 lbs pressure at room temp causing the fingerboard joint
to slip on the underlying neck. It's the primary reason that most guitar
necks have a truss rod built in. I'll grant that all the glues tested
are sensitive to strain and heat (and even humidity in some cases) but
it's a big problem for hide and white glues.
The particular place on an airplane where this slippage seems most
likely to occur is on the scarf joint of a two piece spar.
Opinions?
Greg Chapman
http://www.mousetrax.com
http://www.layer1wireless.com
"Don't start with me or I'll
replace you with a small and
efficient script!"
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AMsafetyC@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:45 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adhesives article
Having posted the article, I have to say that Gordon's post is really
reassuring. The way it turns out a friend of mine is a furniture maker
and swears by the Titebond products, actually suggested on several
occasions that I build using Titebond III as an alternative to the
epoxy's.
I resisted the temptation to go cheep and went the West Systems epoxy,
which I have been extremely happy working with for several reasons,
primarily the mix pump system of a uniform batch every time. After
reading the comparison chart I was again tempted to use the Titebond III
product on some of the non structural parts for no particular reason
other than ease of no having to mix a batch of system 3 epoxy.
From Gordon's perspective and background I made the right choice to
resist the temptation of cheep and easy and remain with the tried and
true proven system of meter mix and apply. For the record I always leave
the project for the recommended set and cure time of 24 hours. Nothing
like making a good choice.
Gordon thanks again for shedding some much needed light on a topic
that I have pondered and read about for quite some time and until
reading your opinion would have considered the Titebond product.
John Recine
Pietenpol air camper, build it like your life depends on it!
AOL.com.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.
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