---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/05/07: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:54 AM - Ron and Patricis Hollmer's Piet (Jim Markle) 2. 04:15 AM - Re: Engine question...... () 3. 06:09 AM - Engine question (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 4. 06:44 AM - Re: Engine question (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Engine question (James Dallas) 6. 07:28 AM - Re: Engine question (Max Hegler) 7. 11:38 AM - Re: Engine question (Patrick Panzera) 8. 12:08 PM - Re: Engine question (Gordon Bowen) 9. 04:37 PM - Re: Engine question (MICHAEL SILVIUS) 10. 05:08 PM - Re: Engine question (skellytownflyer) 11. 05:33 PM - Re: Engine question (BFD) 12. 06:57 PM - Re: Engine question (Gordon Bowen) 13. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: Engine question (baileys) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:16 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ron and Patricis Hollmer's Piet I think the rims are making it look like there are brakes. The spokes are still straight (as in Howard's original build) so unless someone added them, there probably aren't any brakes. I want mine to look like Howard's when it grows up!!!! That thing is beautiful. jm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catdesigns" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:46 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Ron and Patricis Hollmer's Piet > > > Oscar and All, > > The picture can be found at > http://westcoastpiet.com/howard_henderson_444hh.htm it's the one on the > very bottom. > Oscar, I see brakes. They look to be small, perhaps 4-inch, drum brakes. > If you look closely I think he has pins on the axel like Mike Cuy. > > Grant MacLaren has a great write-up on this plane at > http://users.aol.com/bpabpabpa/n444mh1.html > > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, Ca > Website at http://www.Westcoastpiet.com > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:00 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Engine question...... From: My 80 hp Franklin just hums,no screaming and yes up here in cold Canada it is an ultralight and when it starts that's when it putts. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Michals Sent: September 4, 2007 7:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question...... One of the attractive features of the Piet for me was the fact that it uses a low revving engine. The sound of an old Ford or Continental puttin' along adds to the whole experiance, rather than somthin' on the nose screeming like it may blow apart at any moment (no offense ultralight guys). Ryan ________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:32 AM PST US From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engine question Several years a guy in Alabama was flying a Piet with a Chevy 4 cyl. from an S-10. It later crashed for reasons not the fault of the engine. I'm still waiting for him to come foreward with all the details. (good thing I'm not holding my breath) If you missed the Model A forum at Brodhead, we learned about an automotive engineer who has re designed the model A engine to modern standards and is planning to have it produced in China for about 3K if he can get enough interest. for a production run. E-mail him and tell him you'll take a dozen! modelaengine.com Leon S. in Ks. who hasn't touched the Piet yet this year. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:48 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question What changes would one have to make to an engine to get the majority of hp out at a lower rpm, rather than making it a 6500 rpm screamer? I would much rather improve the low rpm output if possible than go full rpm and redrive. Any suggestions on building a low rpm high output engine suggesting a max rpm in the 2500 to 3500 range? I would really like to use the ford 2.0 L OHC metric engine (Pinto) I already have in stock if at all possible! Any info on building that is greatly appreciated! John http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:51 AM PST US From: "James Dallas" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question John, The big change would be in the cam profile. You need to find an automotive machinist that knows cams and can grind a profile for the torque/RPM range that you want. The bad thing is more than likely the horsepower will be considerably lower than the stock engine trying to get the peak torque at say 2600 RPM. Jim Dallas >From: AMsafetyC@aol.com >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:44:22 EDT > >What changes would one have to make to an engine to get the majority of hp >out at a lower rpm, rather than making it a 6500 rpm screamer? I would much >rather improve the low rpm output if possible than go full rpm and >redrive. > >Any suggestions on building a low rpm high output engine suggesting a max >rpm in the 2500 to 3500 range? > >I would really like to use the ford 2.0 L OHC metric engine (Pinto) I >already have in stock if at all possible! Any info on building that is >greatly >appreciated! > >John > > >http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:57 AM PST US From: "Max Hegler" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question Has anyone checked this one out? http://www.donovanengineering.com/Blocks/ModelDBlock.html In my "wild about car" days, Donovan engines were about the best. I have asked for information but it hasn't arrived yet. Max ----- Original Message ----- From: AMsafetyC@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 8:44 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question What changes would one have to make to an engine to get the majority of hp out at a lower rpm, rather than making it a 6500 rpm screamer? I would much rather improve the low rpm output if possible than go full rpm and redrive. Any suggestions on building a low rpm high output engine suggesting a max rpm in the 2500 to 3500 range? I would really like to use the ford 2.0 L OHC metric engine (Pinto) I already have in stock if at all possible! Any info on building that is greatly appreciated! John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:34 AM PST US From: "Patrick Panzera" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Engine question A good rule of thumb is RPM x displacement (in cubic inches) =F7 5,250 will get you close to what you can expect from HP. So as an example, your 2000cc (122 cubes) @ 3,250 RPM could net upwards of 75 ponies. If you need to turn it slower, say 2,750 RPM then HP drops to 59. So if you increase the cubes by bore and stroke (if that=92s possible) you could gain a few ponies back. You can also pick a little more power by increasing the compression ratio and by playing with the timing. Cam grind can help too if you can find such a cam. Most cams made for little motors are to help the engine spin faster. Do you know of a stock torque curve graph that=92s out there for this engine? The good thing about trying to find extra power with an auto conversion is the lack of a need for =93drivability=94. You pretty much have three throttle positions, wide open, cruise, and pattern and not any start-and-stop driving like with a car. But with direct drive you have to concern yourself with the crank. A PSRU can isolate the crank from all the gyroscopic concerns imposed by the prop (in addition to thrust), and in many cases, offer some sort of torsional vibration damping. Pat _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 6:44 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question What changes would one have to make to an engine to get the majority of hp out at a lower rpm, rather than making it a 6500 rpm screamer? I would much rather improve the low rpm output if possible than go full rpm and redrive. Any suggestions on building a low rpm high output engine suggesting a max rpm in the 2500 to 3500 range? I would really like to use the ford 2.0 L OHC metric engine (Pinto) I already have in stock if at all possible! Any info on building that is greatly appreciated! John _____ . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:26 PM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question Find an engine with the shortest stroke and largest diameter pistons. Torque turns the prop, not max. hp. Low rpm torque comes from short stroke and large diameter piston engines, ie. diesel engines and storebought aircraft engines. You can look until the next ice age, but you ain't gonna find too many cheap engines made for cars that meet the above torque requirements at low rpm. OR Option 1--- bite the bullet and buy engine designed for the job, like a Lycosaurus. Option 2--bite the bullet again and get a firewall forward system like the Subaru's modified, somewhat proven and for aircraft. Subarus still need a PRU, do to rpm needed to get torque. Benefit of Subarus is the fact the pistons are oppossed like VW or Corvair, thus they don't vibrate themselves to death at high rpms. Biggest problem with looking a alternate sources of power is waste of your time and money. I know it's called experimental, but the engine alternative experiment has been beaten to death by every type and sort of homebuilder and some spam cans with ie. 4.3L Chevy engines, or alumimum block ole Buick V-8's. There's tonnes of research and experiment documentation out there in internet-land for your consideration. The power systems that have worked and are working are well documented. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: AMsafetyC@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:44 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question What changes would one have to make to an engine to get the majority of hp out at a lower rpm, rather than making it a 6500 rpm screamer? I would much rather improve the low rpm output if possible than go full rpm and redrive. Any suggestions on building a low rpm high output engine suggesting a max rpm in the 2500 to 3500 range? I would really like to use the ford 2.0 L OHC metric engine (Pinto) I already have in stock if at all possible! Any info on building that is greatly appreciated! John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:05 PM PST US From: "MICHAEL SILVIUS" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Engine question You could even do a direct drive Subaru as Ed Barros is doing on his highly modified KR in Agentina. Cant get much simpler and afordable than that. http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:02 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine question From: "skellytownflyer" Well I wonder how the re-drive bug engine is holding up that gene what's his name in Missourri builds and also sells the drive unit for? I have a friend that wants to buy one of his backyard flyer's with one of them on it pretty bad.but unless he sells his Tailwind for a pretty good price-I doubt he will.another buddy is thinking along the same lines if he sells his Glassair.that's the fastest plane I ever got to fly for sure.but they are geting into the Light Sport mentality now instead of just wanting to go fast.I guess the grass is surely allways greener on the other side of the runway.Don't know why one of those engines would'nt power a Piet pretty well too and surely be lighter than a model A or a Corvair. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132979#132979 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:22 PM PST US From: "BFD" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question Thats a good one! lol Low rpm torque comes from short stroke and large diameter piston engines, ie. diesel engines and storebought aircraft engines. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:46 PM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question BFD seems to have a tad of doubt, soooo. Here's an example for doubting BFD's. GM and Ford both made a 3.8l V-6 engine. Equal displacement but Ford engine has larger bore and shorter stroke to get same cubic inches as GM. Get a copy of the torque curve and ck it out yourself who has the highest torque at lowest RPM's. Ford and Chrysler (Cummings) both making approx same displacement diesel engine, the Cummings engine has larger bore and shorter stroke, look up the torque curve and see who has highest torque at lowest RPM. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: BFD To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question Thats a good one! lol Low rpm torque comes from short stroke and large diameter piston engines, ie. diesel engines and storebought aircraft engines. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:29 PM PST US From: "baileys" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine question IMHO the bug engine at it's current level of development would be a good candidate as long as one didn't try and push it too hard. I belive the redrive you mention is one from Valley Engineering aka Culver Props. Father and Son team Gene and Larry Smith are the ones running the show http://www.culverprops.com/index.php Even if you aren't interested in a bug engine it is an interesting site to browse. Also I belive they won an award for their Briggs & Stratton conversion at EAA. ----- Original Message ----- From: skellytownflyer To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 7:07 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine question Well I wonder how the re-drive bug engine is holding up that gene what's his name in Missourri builds and also sells the drive unit for? I have a friend that wants to buy one of his backyard flyer's with one of them on it pretty bad.but unless he sells his Tailwind for a pretty good price-I doubt he will.another buddy is thinking along the same lines if he sells his Glassair.that's the fastest plane I ever got to fly for sure.but they are geting into the Light Sport mentality now instead of just wanting to go fast.I guess the grass is surely allways greener on the other side of the runway.Don't know why one of those engines would'nt power a Piet pretty well too and surely be lighter than a model A or a Corvair. 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